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[qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine

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  • yuan
    Kevin, By object , I meant the thing/matter/energy/Qi/light/heat/electricity/etc to be measured using our current scientific method. Our current science can
    Message 1 of 17 , May 31, 2008
      Kevin,

      By "object", I meant the thing/matter/energy/Qi/light/heat/electricity/etc
      to be measured using our current scientific method. Our current science can
      only measure/know the effects of the "object", not the "object" itself.

      Best,
      Yuan

      ------- Forwarded message -------
      From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
      To: yuan <yuan123@...>
      Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
      Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 21:57:30 -0400

      Yuan, you are partially right, it depends on what you define "qi" to be....

      If you define "qi" as a force, you can mostly measure its effects, or
      correlate, but not the force itself, like the force (li) in
      physics. However, most people would not agree with you on qi is just
      a physical force.

      If you define "qi" as an object (or a matter), as your email stated,
      it would be measurable either physically or chemically, we know that
      even air or vacuum is measurable in some way.

      If you define "qi" as energy, you need to define what kind of energy
      it is, and what the unit of this energy is and how to express it in
      that unit. Then you should be able to measure the existence or
      absent of this energy and its strength or tensity in the real healing
      or health situations. The problem is, we have not define this
      "energy" well enough to express it in an agreeable unit!

      If you define "qi" as all of above -- which was what a group of
      Chinese scientists have done -- you need meet some or all of the
      above common requests from other scientists....

      Now you see how complicated the concept of qi could become...
      :) Your further thoughts and input to this would be more than welcomed!

      Kevin

      At 06:53 PM 5/31/2008, you wrote:
      > "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
      > > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
      > > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
      > >
      >
      > In fact, our current modern science in whole measures only the effects
      > of the object, not the object itself.
      >
      >
      > Regards,
      > Yuan
      >
      > ------- Forwarded message -------
      > From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
      > To: misaha <misaha@...>
      > Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
      > Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:13:39 -0400
      >
      > Hi, Savva,
      >
      > Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
      > qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
      > I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
      > post Chinese characters to the internet...
      >
      > Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
      > of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
      > get it's contents more available to the scientists.
      >
      > Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
      > using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
      > :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
      > or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
      > in physics.
      >
      > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
      > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
      > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
      >
      > If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
      > see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
      > achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
      > what qi is... :)
      >
      > Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
      > subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.
      >
      > Kevin
    • Dina Ralt
      Hi Kevin, Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can induce changes in energy and/or matter? And moreover we do have such a
      Message 2 of 17 , May 31, 2008

         

        Hi Kevin,

        Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can induce changes in energy and/or matter? And moreover we do have such a great signal - the nitric oxide NO:

          http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1180462

         

        Recently I have written also about it being a primordial signal

        http://nettingno.blogspot.com/2008/01/was-nitric-oxide-archaic-communication.html

         

        Dina

         

        From: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:qiresearch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin W Chen
        Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:14 AM
        To: misaha
        Cc: Int'l Forum for Qigong Research
        Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine

         

        Hi, Savva,

        Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
        qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
        I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
        post Chinese characters to the internet...

        Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
        of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
        get it's contents more available to the scientists.

        Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
        using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
        :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
        or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
        in physics.

        Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
        measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
        itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.

        If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
        see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
        achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
        what qi is... :)

        Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
        subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.

        Kevin

        At 04:11 PM 5/31/2008, misaha wrote:

        >Hi Kevin,
        >
        >A good review of Qi (though, what the figures are referring to?). I would
        >add the late S. Inomata's concept, the triangle: energy - mass - Qi.
        >
        >Qi is something very fundamental and is far beyond the current knowledge.
        >
        >Considering the 20th Century stagnation of physics and the conservatism of
        >the scientific community, we (I, particularly) have no hope to see any
        >progress in this field. Experiments presented in our book are inspired by
        >bringing Qi into the realm of science.
        >
        >Best wishes,
        >Savva
        >
        >
        >
        >----- Original Message ----- From: "qigong4us" <
        href="mailto:chenke%40umdnj.edu">chenke@...>
        >To: <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:55 AM
        >Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
        >
        >
        >Many people have asked me what is qi, I decide to write down what I
        >have learned so far to help development of this concpet. "Qi" is
        a
        >fundamental concept or terminology in traditional Chinese medicine
        >(TCM) with multiple levels of meanings. In general TCM uses "qi"
        to
        >describe all invisible forces that affect human lives and health.
        >More specifically, "qi" can devote the invisible forces both
        outside
        >and inside the human body in the following way:
        >
        >1. Any of the various dynamic phenomena of the body, or the vital
        >energy in the body that keeps a person alive. For example, &#20803;
        >&#27668; "yuan qi" (source qi or original qi),
        &#30495;&#27668; "zhen qi"
        >(true qi), &#21355;
        >&#27668; "wei qi" (defense qi), and &#33829;&#27668;"ying
        qi" (construction
        >qi), by
        >which many physiological functions are explained. This is the most
        >common use of qi in TCM, and Qi in Qigong should be mainly in this
        >sense.

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG.
        Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1475 - Release Date: 30/05/2008 14:53

      • yuan
        ... True. Dr. Yan s experiments are very difficult to repeat. It is simply because the experimenter must posseses the same high level of accomplishment of Qi
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 2 5:57 AM
          > most studies by Yan Xin are not recognized by the scientific community due to
          > lack of replication and explanation on mechanism. I wonder why no one else in
          > Yan Xin Qigong association comes out to do some studies to repeat Yan Xin'
          > experiements after so many years of practice?

          True. Dr. Yan's experiments are very difficult to repeat. It is simply because
          the experimenter must posseses the same high level of accomplishment of Qi as
          Dr. Yan. I haven't heard of anyone who has that kind of Qi accomplishment. It is
          just like doing the high energy particle experiments. You need a higher and higher
          energy particle accelerator to perform some scientific physics experiments,
          e.g. Large Hadron Collider.


          Best,
          Yuan


          ------- Forwarded message -------
          From: yuan <yuan123@...>
          To: Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
          Cc:
          Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
          Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:22:30 -0400

          Kevin,

          By "object", I meant the thing/matter/energy/Qi/light/heat/electricity/etc
          to be measured using our current scientific method. Our current science can
          only measure/know the effects of the "object", not the "object" itself.

          Best,
          Yuan

          ------- Forwarded message -------
          From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
          To: yuan <yuan123@...>
          Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
          Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 21:57:30 -0400

          Yuan, you are partially right, it depends on what you define "qi" to be....

          If you define "qi" as a force, you can mostly measure its effects, or
          correlate, but not the force itself, like the force (li) in
          physics. However, most people would not agree with you on qi is just
          a physical force.

          If you define "qi" as an object (or a matter), as your email stated,
          it would be measurable either physically or chemically, we know that
          even air or vacuum is measurable in some way.

          If you define "qi" as energy, you need to define what kind of energy
          it is, and what the unit of this energy is and how to express it in
          that unit. Then you should be able to measure the existence or
          absent of this energy and its strength or tensity in the real healing
          or health situations. The problem is, we have not define this
          "energy" well enough to express it in an agreeable unit!

          If you define "qi" as all of above -- which was what a group of
          Chinese scientists have done -- you need meet some or all of the
          above common requests from other scientists....

          Now you see how complicated the concept of qi could become...
          :) Your further thoughts and input to this would be more than welcomed!

          Kevin

          At 06:53 PM 5/31/2008, you wrote:
          > "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
          > > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
          > > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
          > >
          >
          > In fact, our current modern science in whole measures only the effects
          > of the object, not the object itself.
          >
          >
          > Regards,
          > Yuan
          >
          > ------- Forwarded message -------
          > From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
          > To: misaha <misaha@...>
          > Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
          > Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:13:39 -0400
          >
          > Hi, Savva,
          >
          > Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
          > qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
          > I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
          > post Chinese characters to the internet...
          >
          > Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
          > of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
          > get it's contents more available to the scientists.
          >
          > Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
          > using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
          > :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
          > or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
          > in physics.
          >
          > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
          > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
          > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
          >
          > If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
          > see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
          > achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
          > what qi is... :)
          >
          > Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
          > subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.
          >
          > Kevin



          ------------------------------------

          To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
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        • yuan
          ... I should be more careful in choosing the words. I wish there could be more high level qigong masters come forward and repeat the scientific experiments
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 2 8:57 AM
            > There are plenty of high level practitioners and teachers. Duan Zhiliang,
            > Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Quanzhong etc.
            >

            I should be more careful in choosing the words.

            I wish there could be more high level qigong masters come forward and repeat the
            scientific experiments done by Dr. Yan.


            Best,
            Yuan


            ------- Forwarded message -------
            From: yuan <yuan123@...>
            To: Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
            Cc:
            Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
            Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:57:17 -0400

            > most studies by Yan Xin are not recognized by the scientific community due to
            > lack of replication and explanation on mechanism. I wonder why no one else in
            > Yan Xin Qigong association comes out to do some studies to repeat Yan Xin'
            > experiements after so many years of practice?

            True. Dr. Yan's experiments are very difficult to repeat. It is simply because
            the experimenter must posseses the same high level of accomplishment of Qi as
            Dr. Yan. I haven't heard of anyone who has that kind of Qi accomplishment. It is
            just like doing the high energy particle experiments. You need a higher and higher
            energy particle accelerator to perform some scientific physics experiments,
            e.g. Large Hadron Collider.


            Best,
            Yuan


            ------- Forwarded message -------
            From: yuan <yuan123@...>
            To: Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
            Cc:
            Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
            Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:22:30 -0400

            Kevin,

            By "object", I meant the thing/matter/energy/Qi/light/heat/electricity/etc
            to be measured using our current scientific method. Our current science can
            only measure/know the effects of the "object", not the "object" itself.

            Best,
            Yuan

            ------- Forwarded message -------
            From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
            To: yuan <yuan123@...>
            Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
            Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 21:57:30 -0400

            Yuan, you are partially right, it depends on what you define "qi" to be....

            If you define "qi" as a force, you can mostly measure its effects, or
            correlate, but not the force itself, like the force (li) in
            physics. However, most people would not agree with you on qi is just
            a physical force.

            If you define "qi" as an object (or a matter), as your email stated,
            it would be measurable either physically or chemically, we know that
            even air or vacuum is measurable in some way.

            If you define "qi" as energy, you need to define what kind of energy
            it is, and what the unit of this energy is and how to express it in
            that unit. Then you should be able to measure the existence or
            absent of this energy and its strength or tensity in the real healing
            or health situations. The problem is, we have not define this
            "energy" well enough to express it in an agreeable unit!

            If you define "qi" as all of above -- which was what a group of
            Chinese scientists have done -- you need meet some or all of the
            above common requests from other scientists....

            Now you see how complicated the concept of qi could become...
            :) Your further thoughts and input to this would be more than welcomed!

            Kevin

            At 06:53 PM 5/31/2008, you wrote:
            > "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
            > > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
            > > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
            > >
            >
            > In fact, our current modern science in whole measures only the effects
            > of the object, not the object itself.
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            > Yuan
            >
            > ------- Forwarded message -------
            > From: "Kevin W Chen" <chenke@...>
            > To: misaha <misaha@...>
            > Cc: "Int'l Forum for Qigong Research" <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
            > Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:13:39 -0400
            >
            > Hi, Savva,
            >
            > Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
            > qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
            > I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
            > post Chinese characters to the internet...
            >
            > Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
            > of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
            > get it's contents more available to the scientists.
            >
            > Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
            > using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
            > :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
            > or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
            > in physics.
            >
            > Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
            > measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
            > itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.
            >
            > If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
            > see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
            > achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
            > what qi is... :)
            >
            > Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
            > subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.
            >
            > Kevin



            ------------------------------------

            To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: qiresearch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links




            ------------------------------------

            To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
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          • misaha
            Why, in stead of building higher and higher energy colliders, not to study the phenomenon of biological nuclear reactions (L. Kervran and Moscow University
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 2 12:26 PM
              Why, in stead of building higher and higher energy colliders, not to study
              the phenomenon of biological nuclear reactions (L. Kervran and Moscow
              University work in our book)? Why not to study the effect of (gifted)
              humans' intent on biochemical processes in living cells (J. Kiang in our
              book), on electrical reactions of cells removed from the donor (C. Backster
              in our book)?
              Other psychokinetic studies conducted in Russia (N. Sitina in our book)
              could be repeated.

              Savely Savva


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "yuan" <yuan123@...>
              To: <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:57 AM
              Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine


              >> most studies by Yan Xin are not recognized by the scientific community
              >> due to
              >> lack of replication and explanation on mechanism. I wonder why no one
              >> else in
              >> Yan Xin Qigong association comes out to do some studies to repeat Yan
              >> Xin'
              >> experiements after so many years of practice?
              >
              > True. Dr. Yan's experiments are very difficult to repeat. It is simply
              > because
              > the experimenter must posseses the same high level of accomplishment of Qi
              > as
              > Dr. Yan. I haven't heard of anyone who has that kind of Qi accomplishment.
              > It is
              > just like doing the high energy particle experiments. You need a higher
              > and higher
              > energy particle accelerator to perform some scientific physics
              > experiments,
              > e.g. Large Hadron Collider.
              >
              >
              > Best,
              > Yuan
            • Jeff Smoley
              Agreed, and fewer fakes messing things up for the rest of us. Jeff ... -- Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162 www.JadePowerQigong.com www.yuliqigong.com www.SomaticSA.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 2 12:43 PM
                Agreed, and fewer fakes messing things up for the rest of us.

                Jeff

                yuan wrote:
                There are plenty of high level practitioners and teachers. Duan Zhiliang,
                Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Quanzhong etc.
                
                    
                     I should be more careful in choosing the words.
                
                     I wish there could be more high level qigong masters come forward and repeat the
                scientific experiments done by Dr. Yan.
                
                  

                -- 
                Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162
                www.JadePowerQigong.com
                www.yuliqigong.com
                www.SomaticSA.com
              • yuan
                Hi Savely, For any experiment that a qigong master affects living organism, normally is quite easily influenced by many unknown factors or environmental
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 2 4:46 PM
                  Hi Savely,

                  For any experiment that a qigong master affects living organism, normally
                  is quite easily influenced by many unknown factors or environmental conditions.
                  This uncertainty makes it difficult to judge the validity of the results or to
                  statistically process the data. That is why in the late stage of Dr. Yan's
                  scientific research, his experiments have always used some non-living things so to
                  eliminate the background unknown factors or any unknown biological interference.


                  Best,
                  Yuan

                  ------- Forwarded message -------
                  From: misaha <savva@...>
                  To: yuan <yuan123@...>
                  Cc: Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                  Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:26:21 -0400

                  Why, in stead of building higher and higher energy colliders, not to study
                  the phenomenon of biological nuclear reactions (L. Kervran and Moscow
                  University work in our book)? Why not to study the effect of (gifted)
                  humans' intent on biochemical processes in living cells (J. Kiang in our
                  book), on electrical reactions of cells removed from the donor (C. Backster
                  in our book)?
                  Other psychokinetic studies conducted in Russia (N. Sitina in our book)
                  could be repeated.

                  Savely Savva


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "yuan" <yuan123@...>
                  To: <Qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:57 AM
                  Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine


                  >> most studies by Yan Xin are not recognized by the scientific community
                  >> due to
                  >> lack of replication and explanation on mechanism. I wonder why no one
                  >> else in
                  >> Yan Xin Qigong association comes out to do some studies to repeat Yan
                  >> Xin'
                  >> experiements after so many years of practice?
                  >
                  > True. Dr. Yan's experiments are very difficult to repeat. It is simply
                  > because
                  > the experimenter must posseses the same high level of accomplishment of Qi
                  > as
                  > Dr. Yan. I haven't heard of anyone who has that kind of Qi accomplishment.
                  > It is
                  > just like doing the high energy particle experiments. You need a higher
                  > and higher
                  > energy particle accelerator to perform some scientific physics
                  > experiments,
                  > e.g. Large Hadron Collider.
                  >
                  >
                  > Best,
                  > Yuan


                  ------------------------------------

                  To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: qiresearch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                • yuan
                  ... According to Dr. Yan: the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information. http://www.twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm .....To summarize, based on
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 3 6:14 AM
                    >
                    > Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can
                    > induce changes in energy and/or matter?
                    >

                    According to Dr. Yan:
                    "the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information."

                    http://www.twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm

                    ".....To summarize, based on a series of qigong experiments I have conducted over the last ten years in collaboration with many leading universities and scientific institutions in China (including, but not limited to, Tsinghua University, Beijing University, Zhongshan University, and within the Academia Sinica, the Institute of High Energy Physics, the Institute of Biology, the Institute of Electrical Engineering, and the Institute of Microbiology), we have preliminarily discovered that the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information. Moreover, qi can be influenced, disturbed, or controlled by the thoughts of a qi-emitter or people nearby. At the same time, according to different purposes of the experiments, qi can also display different attributes, such as being bi-directional, distance-transcending, self-controllable, reversible, and targeting. Some experiments involving chain reactions have also been successfully completed......"


                    Best,
                    Yuan


                    ------- Forwarded message -------
                    From: "Dina Ralt" <ralt1@...>
                    To: "'Kevin W Chen'" <chenke@...>
                    Cc: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                    Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:53:47 -0400

                    Hi Kevin,

                    Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can
                    induce changes in energy and/or matter? And moreover we do have such a great
                    signal - the nitric oxide NO:

                    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1180462


                    Recently I have written also about it being a primordial signal

                    http://nettingno.blogspot.com/2008/01/was-nitric-oxide-archaic-communication
                    .html


                    Dina



                    From: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:qiresearch@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Kevin W Chen
                    Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:14 AM
                    To: misaha
                    Cc: Int'l Forum for Qigong Research
                    Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine



                    Hi, Savva,

                    Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
                    qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
                    I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
                    post Chinese characters to the internet...

                    Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
                    of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
                    get it's contents more available to the scientists.

                    Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
                    using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
                    :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
                    or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
                    in physics.

                    Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
                    measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
                    itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.

                    If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
                    see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
                    achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
                    what qi is... :)

                    Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
                    subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.

                    Kevin

                    At 04:11 PM 5/31/2008, misaha wrote:
                    > Hi Kevin,
                    >
                    > A good review of Qi (though, what the figures are referring to?). I would
                    > add the late S. Inomata's concept, the triangle: energy - mass - Qi.
                    >
                    > Qi is something very fundamental and is far beyond the current knowledge.
                    >
                    > Considering the 20th Century stagnation of physics and the conservatism of
                    > the scientific community, we (I, particularly) have no hope to see any
                    > progress in this field. Experiments presented in our book are inspired by
                    > bringing Qi into the realm of science.
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    > Savva
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "qigong4us" <chenke@...
                    <mailto:chenke%40umdnj.edu> >
                    > To: <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com <mailto:qiresearch%40yahoogroups.com> >
                    > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:55 AM
                    > Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                    >
                    >
                    > Many people have asked me what is qi, I decide to write down what I
                    > have learned so far to help development of this concpet. "Qi" is a
                    > fundamental concept or terminology in traditional Chinese medicine
                    > (TCM) with multiple levels of meanings. In general TCM uses "qi" to
                    > describe all invisible forces that affect human lives and health.
                    > More specifically, "qi" can devote the invisible forces both outside
                    > and inside the human body in the following way:
                    >
                    > 1. Any of the various dynamic phenomena of the body, or the vital
                    > energy in the body that keeps a person alive. For example, 元
                    > 气 "yuan qi" (source qi or original qi), 真气 "zhen qi"
                    > (true qi), 卫
                    > 气 "wei qi" (defense qi), and 营气"ying qi" (construction
                    > qi), by
                    > which many physiological functions are explained. This is the most
                    > common use of qi in TCM, and Qi in Qigong should be mainly in this
                    > sense.



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                    Checked by AVG.
                    Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1475 - Release Date: 30/05/2008
                    14:53
                  • Dina Ralt
                    Dear Yuan, The part that you have sent me according to Dr. Yan, goes well with my proposition that qi is carried via nitric oxide, the major (bodily and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 3 8:12 AM
                      Dear Yuan,
                      The part that you have sent me according to Dr. Yan, goes well with my
                      proposition that qi is carried via nitric oxide, the major (bodily and
                      atmospherically) radical gas...I have added all the ref. in the original
                      article...and will be glad to further discuss the data.
                      You may also see it's behavior via Viagra use which just let the NO stay
                      longer:
                      http://nettingno.blogspot.com/2007/10/viagra-no-see-no-hear.html
                      Yours, Dina

                      Dr. Dina Ralt
                      Center of Scientific Obesity Studies
                      Phone- 972-3-5224750
                      Cellular - 972-52-8000210
                      http://nettingno.blogspot.com/
                      Life is too short to be in a hurry...
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:qiresearch@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of yuan
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:15 PM
                      To: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Fwd: RE: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine

                      >
                      > Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can
                      > induce changes in energy and/or matter?
                      >

                      According to Dr. Yan:
                      "the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information."

                      http://www.twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm

                      ".....To summarize, based on a series of qigong experiments I have conducted
                      over the last ten years in collaboration with many leading universities and
                      scientific institutions in China (including, but not limited to, Tsinghua
                      University, Beijing University, Zhongshan University, and within the
                      Academia Sinica, the Institute of High Energy Physics, the Institute of
                      Biology, the Institute of Electrical Engineering, and the Institute of
                      Microbiology), we have preliminarily discovered that the qi of qigong has
                      properties of matter, energy, and information. Moreover, qi can be
                      influenced, disturbed, or controlled by the thoughts of a qi-emitter or
                      people nearby. At the same time, according to different purposes of the
                      experiments, qi can also display different attributes, such as being
                      bi-directional, distance-transcending, self-controllable, reversible, and
                      targeting. Some experiments involving chain reactions have also been
                      successfully completed......"


                      Best,
                      Yuan


                      ------- Forwarded message -------
                      From: "Dina Ralt" <ralt1@...>
                      To: "'Kevin W Chen'" <chenke@...>
                      Cc: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                      Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:53:47 -0400

                      Hi Kevin,

                      Why is it so problematic to accept the concept of qi as a signal that can
                      induce changes in energy and/or matter? And moreover we do have such a great
                      signal - the nitric oxide NO:

                      http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1180462


                      Recently I have written also about it being a primordial signal

                      http://nettingno.blogspot.com/2008/01/was-nitric-oxide-archaic-communication
                      .html


                      Dina



                      From: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:qiresearch@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Kevin W Chen
                      Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:14 AM
                      To: misaha
                      Cc: Int'l Forum for Qigong Research
                      Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine



                      Hi, Savva,

                      Thank you for your comment to my brief description on the concept of
                      qi. The unreadable symbols in the message are the Chinese characters
                      I typed. Sorry for the mixed-up. I still did not figure out how to
                      post Chinese characters to the internet...

                      Your book is a very important step toward understanding the concept
                      of qi. It will be cited as the studies move forward (as long as you
                      get it's contents more available to the scientists.

                      Qi is not too far beyond the current knowledge, TCM doctors have been
                      using it to diagnose and treating diseases for thousands of years.
                      :) It may take extra efforts and devices to actually understand it
                      or measure it since it may exist in the so-called "hidden dimensions"
                      in physics.

                      Most studies of external qi, including those Dr. Yan Xin's, are
                      measuring the effects of qi, or correlates of qigong process, not qi
                      itself. At least we are not sure what level of qi it was referred to.

                      If you have no hope for something, I can be sure that you will not
                      see it. We just have to keep a positive view in mind when we try to
                      achieve some goal. I am still going to work toward understanding
                      what qi is... :)

                      Hope to hear more comments, suggestions and discussion on this
                      subject so that we can all move forward in our knowledge of qi.

                      Kevin

                      At 04:11 PM 5/31/2008, misaha wrote:
                      > Hi Kevin,
                      >
                      > A good review of Qi (though, what the figures are referring to?). I would
                      > add the late S. Inomata's concept, the triangle: energy - mass - Qi.
                      >
                      > Qi is something very fundamental and is far beyond the current knowledge.
                      >
                      > Considering the 20th Century stagnation of physics and the conservatism of
                      > the scientific community, we (I, particularly) have no hope to see any
                      > progress in this field. Experiments presented in our book are inspired by
                      > bringing Qi into the realm of science.
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      > Savva
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----- From: "qigong4us" <chenke@...
                      <mailto:chenke%40umdnj.edu> >
                      > To: <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com <mailto:qiresearch%40yahoogroups.com> >
                      > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:55 AM
                      > Subject: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                      >
                      >
                      > Many people have asked me what is qi, I decide to write down what I
                      > have learned so far to help development of this concpet. "Qi" is a
                      > fundamental concept or terminology in traditional Chinese medicine
                      > (TCM) with multiple levels of meanings. In general TCM uses "qi" to
                      > describe all invisible forces that affect human lives and health.
                      > More specifically, "qi" can devote the invisible forces both outside
                      > and inside the human body in the following way:
                      >
                      > 1. Any of the various dynamic phenomena of the body, or the vital
                      > energy in the body that keeps a person alive. For example, 元
                      > 气 "yuan qi" (source qi or original qi), 真气 "zhen qi"
                      > (true qi), 卫
                      > 气 "wei qi" (defense qi), and 营气"ying qi"
                      (construction
                      > qi), by
                      > which many physiological functions are explained. This is the most
                      > common use of qi in TCM, and Qi in Qigong should be mainly in this
                      > sense.



                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG.
                      Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1475 - Release Date: 30/05/2008
                      14:53



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                      Checked by AVG.
                      Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 03/06/2008
                      07:00
                    • Craig Clayton
                      ... repeat the ... No one else in Dr. Yan s organization can replicate these experiments? He has no students who have attained his level of qigong? --Craig
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 4 7:06 PM
                        Yuan wrote:

                        >I wish there could be more high level qigong masters come forward and
                        repeat the
                        >scientific experiments done by Dr. Yan.

                        No one else in Dr. Yan's organization can replicate these experiments? He
                        has no students who have attained his level of qigong?

                        --Craig
                      • yuan
                        ... No one. As far as I know, nobody in the organization has attained Dr. Yan s level. Dr. Yan started the qigong practice since he was 7 years old. He has
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 5 6:47 AM
                          "Craig Clayton" <craigcl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > No one else in Dr. Yan's organization can replicate these experiments? He
                          > has no students who have attained his level of qigong?


                          No one. As far as I know, nobody in the organization has attained Dr. Yan's
                          level. Dr. Yan started the qigong practice since he was 7 years old. He has many
                          VERY high level teachers, and some not known to the outside society.


                          Best,
                          Yuan

                          ------- Forwarded message -------
                          From: "Craig Clayton" <craigcl@...>
                          To: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc:
                          Subject: RE: [qiresearch] Concept of qi in Traditional Chinese Medicine
                          Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:06:51 -0400

                          Yuan wrote:

                          > I wish there could be more high level qigong masters come forward and
                          repeat the
                          > scientific experiments done by Dr. Yan.

                          No one else in Dr. Yan's organization can replicate these experiments? He
                          has no students who have attained his level of qigong?

                          --Craig
                        • Marina V
                          IMO, the difficulty in describing what qi is reflects the inadequate level of our physics. We barely know what space is and our understanding of information
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 9 7:29 PM
                            IMO, the difficulty in describing what qi is reflects the inadequate level of our physics. We barely know what space is and our understanding of information fields is equally rudimentary. Without knowledge of what is space and what is information - with only the concepts of matter and energy - it is impossible to adequately describe qi.

                            I recall Dr. Yan saying that the exploration of qigong will drive the science forward. How true.
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