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[qb-canada] Re: Canadian QB vs American QB

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  • Gabriel Desjardins
    On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Zhan Huan Zhou wrote: ... I think it s pretty obvious - the more we rely on another nation s exports, the less likely we are to develop a
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 15 9:23 AM
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      On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Zhan Huan Zhou wrote:

      ...
      > >It has become increasingly clear to me that we weaken Canadian QB by
      > >participating in American tournaments. We now have three established
      > >programs - Queen's, Waterloo and Western. We are better off working
      > >towards a self-sustained Canadian league than we are by pitting our best
      > >frosh against American grad students.
      >
      > Though I definitely agree with the last statement, I am unsure where you
      > get the notion for the first statement. We have virtually no choice but to
      > attend American tournaments since there are so few in Canada (at most once
      > a year so far).

      I think it's pretty obvious - the more we rely on another nation's
      exports, the less likely we are to develop a competitive industry on our
      own.

      In retrospect, I think Queen's weakened the Canadian "circuit" - we were
      far too willing to attend American tournaments and at the same time
      fearful of running our own tournaments to attract Canadian teams. At the
      time, we had no idea what the US had to offer and decided to explore
      opportunities there. At the time, we couldn't have predicted what was
      going to happen.

      > The establishment of a self-contained Canadian circuit would be great
      > if we had the resources to do it. Unfortunately, with only three
      > established schools, it will still require a great deal more work and
      > some dedicated individuals before anything major can be established to
      > attract more than these three schools.

      Hold on here - three established schools. Think about that again. How
      many established schools does New York state (pop. 20 million) have? This
      year, only Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse and Albany attended multiple
      tournaments, and a drunken Andy Wang is hardly a team. How many states
      have four established schools?

      You want to attract more schools? Sell your tournament as an "intro"
      tournament to schools near the border - there are enough Canadians at
      Michigan and Bowling Green. I think we showed that enough US schools are
      willing to play Canadian questions to make the venture profitable without
      compromising the nationalist integrity of our "new" game.

      > I'm not too sure how Queen's performs in the American tournaments, but
      > Waterloo hasn't had much luck in the tournaments we've attended. After
      > seeing Western's record at NAQT ICT, I believe that Candians are currently
      > outmatched.

      We have to compare oranges to oranges here. Dave's team had a grand total
      of _0_ games experience vs. American teams. How would UWO have performed
      if it was in Division 2 like it should have been? We sent a team with
      very limited experience to NAQT Sectionals last year, and they performed
      well compared to the other inexperienced teams, though not well overall.

      If you want to compare our frosh and second years to their grad students,
      then yes, we are completely overmatched. But Queen's was also able to put
      together teams with all grad students and 4th years. These teams could
      make the playoffs at any tournament. There is little doubt that if we had
      Sean Cooke and Trevor Ogle on our CBI Regionals team, we would have beaten
      Cornell.

      We won't soon erase the advantage that Americans get by having PhD
      students play on their teams. But we can develop a basically
      all-undergrad circuit to the point where we can be among the best in North
      America. We will never be the best if our best players play only 4 years
      in Canada, and unfortunately, our best players will rarely even play this
      much.

      Gabe


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    • kpeskin@sealandserpent.org
      FWIW, (speaking as an American) I think that there are a few American schools interested in playing on Canadian questions. I remember that both MIT and Penn
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 15 11:46 AM
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        FWIW, (speaking as an American) I think that there are a few American schools interested in playing on Canadian questions. I remember that both MIT and Penn St attended tournaments at both Cornell and Queens in 97-98 ONLY because there was Canadian content in the rounds. (This was because the top player on each squad was a Canadian). But Cornell also came up to Queens twice--partly because we had a few Canadian players and partly because some of us liked playing on Candian questions [heck, I like playing on just about everything except ACF]. Not that the lower drinking age was a bad thing either. . .

        I think that a few schools (Cornell, Case, BGSU, Michigan, and whatever NE/Midwest schools have Canadian players) will be interested in competing in a few Canadian tournaments each year. From Cornell's perspective, the nearest tournament to us are Penn St. After that there really isn't anything else within a 6 hour drive. And most of the prospective Canadian QB circuit schools are closer to us than Boston, Philadelphia, or DC (the locations of most of our tournaments currently). So the attraction of getting home before 3AM certainly favors attending some Canadian tournaments.

        Kenny (who thinks the top Queens team probably would have won CBI R2 against Cornell)


        > Hold on here - three established schools. Think about that again. How
        > many established schools does New York state (pop. 20 million) have? This
        > year, only Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse and Albany attended multiple
        > tournaments, and a drunken Andy Wang is hardly a team. How many states
        > have four established schools?
        >
        > You want to attract more schools? Sell your tournament as an "intro"
        > tournament to schools near the border - there are enough Canadians at
        > Michigan and Bowling Green. I think we showed that enough US schools are
        > willing to play Canadian questions to make the venture profitable without
        > compromising the nationalist integrity of our "new" game.
        >


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      • kpeskin@sealandserpent.org
        FWIW, (speaking as an American) I think that there are a few American schools interested in playing on Canadian questions. I remember that both MIT and Penn
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 15 11:51 AM
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          FWIW, (speaking as an American) I think that there are a few American schools interested in playing on Canadian questions. I remember that both MIT and Penn St attended tournaments at both Cornell and Queens in 97-98 ONLY because there was Canadian content in the rounds. (This was because the top player on each squad was a Canadian). But Cornell also came up to Queens twice--partly because we had a few Canadian players and partly because some of us liked playing on Candian questions [heck, I like playing on just about everything except ACF]. Not that the lower drinking age was a bad thing either. . .

          I think that a few schools (Cornell, Case, BGSU, Michigan, and whatever NE/Midwest schools have Canadian players) will be interested in competing in a few Canadian tournaments each year. From Cornell's perspective, the nearest tournament to us are Penn St. After that there really isn't anything else within a 6 hour drive. And most of the prospective Canadian QB circuit schools are closer to us than Boston, Philadelphia, or DC (the locations of most of our tournaments currently). So the attraction of getting home before 3AM certainly favors attending some Canadian tournaments.

          Kenny (who thinks the top Queens team probably would have won CBI R2 against Cornell)


          > Hold on here - three established schools. Think about that again. How
          > many established schools does New York state (pop. 20 million) have? This
          > year, only Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse and Albany attended multiple
          > tournaments, and a drunken Andy Wang is hardly a team. How many states
          > have four established schools?
          >
          > You want to attract more schools? Sell your tournament as an "intro"
          > tournament to schools near the border - there are enough Canadians at
          > Michigan and Bowling Green. I think we showed that enough US schools are
          > willing to play Canadian questions to make the venture profitable without
          > compromising the nationalist integrity of our "new" game.
          >


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        • Zhan Huan Zhou
          ... When I started up the club at Waterloo, I thought we would be attending at least two tournaments a term. Unfortunately, due to money and transportation
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 16 1:19 PM
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            At 12:23 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Gabriel Desjardins wrote:
            >In retrospect, I think Queen's weakened the Canadian "circuit" - we were
            >far too willing to attend American tournaments and at the same time
            >fearful of running our own tournaments to attract Canadian teams. At the
            >time, we had no idea what the US had to offer and decided to explore
            >opportunities there. At the time, we couldn't have predicted what was
            >going to happen.

            When I started up the club at Waterloo, I thought we would be attending at
            least two tournaments a term. Unfortunately, due to money and
            transportation restrictions, this goal was unattainable. Even now, when
            our club is fairly established, we still have problems with transportation.
            Even if there was a tournament down the road at Western, we would still
            have a tough time attending. I never really seriously thought about a
            self-contained Canadian circuit until I started organizing for CQC, I
            always just thought we could goto American tournaments. I'm sure taht
            Queen's must have been thinking along the same lines. Starting a Candian
            circuit with one school would be too difficult and pretty pointless. Now
            that we have three schools, I think we can get more work done together.

            >Hold on here - three established schools. Think about that again. How
            >many established schools does New York state (pop. 20 million) have? This
            >year, only Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse and Albany attended multiple
            >tournaments, and a drunken Andy Wang is hardly a team. How many states
            >have four established schools?

            Altough NY may have four schools attending multiple tournaments, there are
            simply more tournaments within a reasonable driving distance. As I recall,
            states are much smaller than provinces so an out of state tourament isn't
            as big of a deal than driving across Ontario.

            >You want to attract more schools? Sell your tournament as an "intro"
            >tournament to schools near the border - there are enough Canadians at
            >Michigan and Bowling Green. I think we showed that enough US schools are
            >willing to play Canadian questions to make the venture profitable without
            >compromising the nationalist integrity of our "new" game.

            I think that holding our tournaments as novice or junior-bird tournaments
            would be the thing to do. Various American universities have already asked
            me to invite them to the next invitational we hold at Waterloo. It would
            certainly broaden the playing field.

            Even with all this talk about establishing a Canadian circuit, a great deal
            of work must still be done. David and I will try to carry as much of the
            weight as possible, but it would be nice to have someone from Queen's
            involved who actually has more of a clue of what's happening than we do.

            Aside: I think I know how Andy Goss on the qb-list is feeling now :)

            Zhan Huan Zhou
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            3A Computer Engineering, Flying Circuits, University of Waterloo
            Founder of Waterloo Quiz Bowl
            Web: http://www.biosys.net/zhan, ICQ: 4822616
            Email: zhzhou@...

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          • Gabriel Desjardins
            ... Well, Bruce and I tried a billion different tacts for getting Canada off the ground. Over about 3 years, we got in touch with people at at least 8 schools
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 17 11:14 AM
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              On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Zhan Huan Zhou wrote:

              > I never really seriously thought about a self-contained Canadian
              > circuit until I started organizing for CQC, I always just thought we
              > could goto American tournaments. I'm sure that Queen's must have been
              > thinking along the same lines. Starting a Candian circuit with one
              > school would be too difficult and pretty pointless.

              Well, Bruce and I tried a billion different tacts for getting Canada off
              the ground. Over about 3 years, we got in touch with people at at least 8
              schools plus we tried to get Reach for the Top to recruit for us. Nothing
              really worked.

              We always thought we could go to American tournaments, but it's a mixed
              blessing to do so. Consider:

              - inexperienced team goes 1-11 at ACF Regionals in 1996
              - more experienced team goes 3-21 at Philly Experiment in 1997
              - B team goes 1-11 at Princeton in 1997
              - inexperienced team goes 3-9 at NAQT Sectionals in 1998

              contrast that with:

              - good team goes 7-6 and makes playoffs at NAQT Sectionals in 1996
              - more experienced team finishes 2nd in CBI Regionals in 1997
              - more experienced team finishes 2nd at Cornell in 1997
              - good team wins tournament at Queen's in 1998
              - inexperienced team finishes 3rd at watered-down CBI Regionals in 1999

              If you pick your tournaments and your personnel correctly, going to the US
              can be a skill-building exercise. But no one in the world can tell me
              that getting my nuts handed to me 15 times in a row is going to make me a
              better player.

              Maybe a hockey analogy can help: do you take your (possibly really good)
              twelve year-olds and make them play against a junior team? Not bloody
              likely. My hockey team went to a small town when we were 12 and won their
              tournament; we came back the next year and everyone stacked their teams
              with ineligible 14 and 15 year olds. We lost every game badly. We never
              even thought about going back there for a second. Getting the shit beat
              out of us in a series of mismatches didn't make us a better team or more
              able to compete in a mismatch.

              > >Hold on here - three established schools. Think about that again. How
              > >many established schools does New York state (pop. 20 million) have? This
              > >year, only Cornell, Columbia, NYU, Syracuse and Albany attended multiple
              > >tournaments, and a drunken Andy Wang is hardly a team. How many states
              > >have four established schools?
              >
              > Altough NY may have four schools attending multiple tournaments, there are
              > simply more tournaments within a reasonable driving distance. As I recall,
              > states are much smaller than provinces so an out of state tourament isn't
              > as big of a deal than driving across Ontario.

              Well, Kenny already answered this one, but...Cornell is 3 hours from Penn
              State. Everything else - Cleveland, Ann Arbor, Philadelphia, Princeton,
              New York, Boston, Dartmouth - is more than 4 hours away.

              Even with the good geography, how many trips to tournaments did students
              at these schools organize and send multi-player teams to (ie - excluding
              university-run trips to college bowl tournaments)? Albany - 1; Syracuse -
              0. I'd be surprised if Cornell, NYU and Columbia combined for 15 between
              them. So that's three per school - at best.

              With no travelling budgets, poor geography and inexperienced players (ie -
              no grad students with cars and the determination to attend a tournament
              every weekend), Queen's, Waterloo and Western attended a combined 6
              tournaments. The quasi-Ottawa team attended one. If each of Queen's,
              Western and Waterloo had tournaments next year, we suddenly have a more
              active circuit than New York state does with way more money and way more
              people.

              > Even with all this talk about establishing a Canadian circuit, a great deal
              > of work must still be done. David and I will try to carry as much of the
              > weight as possible, but it would be nice to have someone from Queen's
              > involved who actually has more of a clue of what's happening than we do.

              Cameron Barr <8csb> and Robin Bates <8rdb> are in charge now. Rob and I
              are both gone next year, and there really isn't anyone left who's been
              involved with the club for very long. On the plus side, no one's cynical
              about this whole process, so they'll be willing to work with you. Get in
              touch!

              Gabe


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            • Bruce Lin
              ... I definitely agree. People on the qb mailing list always claim that they became the gods they are now (or even the mediocre players they are now) by being
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 18 2:16 PM
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                At 02:14 PM 4/17/99 -0400, Gabriel Desjardins wrote:
                >If you pick your tournaments and your personnel correctly, going to the US
                >can be a skill-building exercise. But no one in the world can tell me
                >that getting my nuts handed to me 15 times in a row is going to make me a
                >better player.

                I definitely agree. People on the qb mailing list always claim that they
                became the gods they are now (or even the mediocre players they are now) by
                being beaten up by Tom Waters &c., but that's only for those who get
                personally motivated by these things. For the average player, it's no fun
                at all.

                Plus, when Andrew Yaphe buzzes in after ten words, you never get to hear
                the giveaway that you should learn, or the intermediate clue that helps you
                beat the average teams. You don't learn.

                (I've played on bad teams and great teams and good teams, and to be honest,
                it's most fun to play on a good team. If you're on a bad team you
                repeatedly lose big. If you're on a great team, you win a lot but don't get
                to buzz in because Jeff Stewart and Jeff Hoppes have already beaten you to
                the tossup. You tend not to guess either because their guesses are better
                than yours. It's when I play on the merely good teams that I have the most
                fun.)

                I'll try to pass the word about canada-qb to everyone who asks me about the
                RFTT site. I get a couple of inquiries a month.

                I reiterate my call for an all-Canadian team for Philly Experiment or Matt
                Bruce's summer open!

                Bruce
                --

                bruce lin -- finger -l -m brucelin@...
                web site -- http://www.princeton.edu/~brucelin
                e-mail -- brucelin@...

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              • Gabriel Desjardins
                ... Oh yeah, just like getting beat up every day by kids five years older than you would be a great character-building exercise. Remember Leave it to Beaver:
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 20 10:04 AM
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                  On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Bruce Lin wrote:

                  > People on the qb mailing list always claim that they became the gods
                  > they are now (or even the mediocre players they are now) by being
                  > beaten up by Tom Waters &c., but that's only for those who get
                  > personally motivated by these things. For the average player, it's no
                  > fun at all.

                  Oh yeah, just like getting beat up every day by kids five years older than
                  you would be a great character-building exercise. Remember Leave it to
                  Beaver: "Beaver, all you have to do is punch the bully in the face and
                  you'll have won and he'll leave you alone forever." Words to live by.
                  Nope, you need to develop young and inexperienced players by having them
                  play against others who don't remember when disco was cool.

                  > (I've played on bad teams and great teams and good teams, and to be honest,
                  > it's most fun to play on a good team. If you're on a bad team you
                  > repeatedly lose big. If you're on a great team, you win a lot but don't get
                  > to buzz in because Jeff Stewart and Jeff Hoppes have already beaten you to
                  > the tossup. You tend not to guess either because their guesses are better
                  > than yours. It's when I play on the merely good teams that I have the most
                  > fun.)

                  Bruce, I agree to agree with you. In university, my two favourite
                  tournaments were when I played at Cornell's canadianized tournament with
                  three people who'd never played before, and at this year's CBI regional
                  with three people who'd never played before. Normally I'd want to sub
                  myself off for someone who'd get more points for the team, but these teams
                  (and the competition) were at exactly the right level.

                  On the other hand, playing ACF and at the Philly Experiment hurt. Like I
                  said, "I've never lost at anything so many times in my life."

                  Gabe


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                • R. Robert Hentzel
                  ... Zhan (and other Canadian quiz bowlers): NAQT is very interested in helping to develop a Canadian Quiz Bowl circuit that overlaps with, but is not dependent
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 22 6:51 PM
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                    > When I started up the club at Waterloo, I thought we would be attending at
                    > least two tournaments a term. Unfortunately, due to money and
                    > transportation restrictions, this goal was unattainable. Even now, when
                    > our club is fairly established, we still have problems with
                    > transportation.
                    > Even if there was a tournament down the road at Western, we would still
                    > have a tough time attending. I never really seriously thought about a
                    > self-contained Canadian circuit until I started organizing for CQC, I
                    > always just thought we could goto American tournaments. I'm sure taht
                    > Queen's must have been thinking along the same lines. Starting a Candian
                    > circuit with one school would be too difficult and pretty pointless. Now
                    > that we have three schools, I think we can get more work done together.

                    Zhan (and other Canadian quiz bowlers):

                    NAQT is very interested in helping to develop a Canadian Quiz Bowl circuit
                    that overlaps with, but is not dependent on, the American circuit.

                    In particular:

                    1. We are interested in producing Canadian sets (that is, not just reselling
                    our American sets in Canada) of IMs (at least) and probably Invitational
                    Series.

                    2. We are interested in working toward the establishment of a
                    "(English-speaking) World Championship" at some point in the near future
                    which does not put any particular nationality at great disadvantage.

                    3. We are interested in hiring Canadian writers and editors to help us with
                    this and the Canadian content of our American sets.

                    We would be prepared to offer 1999-2000 Canadian Intramural questions if at
                    least 10 schools signed on--in advance--to buy at least 20 rounds (US$300)
                    _and_ we were able to sign on at least one native Canadian to assist us in
                    editing the rounds. These questions could also be used (for a relatively
                    small fee) to host high school tournaments.

                    Is this feasible? We are very interested in hearing ideas for ways in which
                    NAQT and established programs could work together to grow the Canadian
                    circuit.

                    -- R. Robert Hentzel
                    President and Chief Technical Officer,
                    National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC


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                  • Zhan Huan Zhou
                    ... Though I think that the three points mentioned by Mr. Hentzel would be very beneficial to NAQT, I am unsure how much they would help
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 26 2:09 PM
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                      At 08:51 PM 4/22/99 -0500, R. Robert Hentzel wrote:
                      >NAQT is very interested in helping to develop a Canadian Quiz Bowl circuit
                      >that overlaps with, but is not dependent on, the American circuit.
                      >
                      >In particular:

                      <3 points snipped>

                      Though I think that the three points mentioned by Mr. Hentzel would be very
                      beneficial to NAQT, I am unsure how much they would help Canadian QB. In
                      particular, gathering 10 schools to purchase 20 rounds of questions at $300
                      seems very unlikely as there are very few QB programs in Canada to start with.

                      To me, it seems unnecessary for NAQT to have to write exclusive Canadian
                      content and hire a Canadian question writer/editor. It would be much more
                      beneficial, from both the perspective of NAQT and Canadian QB, if NAQT
                      simply provided regular packs, but without the American content. It would
                      then be up to the Canadian QB body to substitute the missing American
                      questions with Canadian questions. This body can either be the tournament
                      host, or more ideally, CAQL. This increases accessibility for Canadian QB
                      programs as these packs can presumably be purchased at a discount (since
                      there are less questions). Furthermore, it reduces the burden on NAQT for
                      having to divert resources to write Canadian questions. It would be much
                      easier to have native Canadian quiz bowlers write questions than have NAQT
                      go hunting for potential writers.

                      Perhaps a team effort by NAQT and CAQL is what is necessary to get Canadian
                      QB off the ground and into its own.


                      Zhan Huan Zhou
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      3A Computer Engineering, Flying Circuits, University of Waterloo
                      Founder of Waterloo Quiz Bowl
                      Web: http://www.biosys.net/zhan, ICQ: 4822616
                      Email: zhzhou@...

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                    • R. Robert Hentzel
                      ... I, for one, am very ignorant of Canadian quiz bowl. How many schools are there that play (at any level)? Perhaps 10 is far too ambitious; it was an
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 27 8:30 PM
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                        > At 08:51 PM 4/22/99 -0500, R. Robert Hentzel wrote:
                        > >NAQT is very interested in helping to develop a Canadian Quiz
                        > Bowl circuit
                        > >that overlaps with, but is not dependent on, the American circuit.
                        > >
                        > >In particular:
                        >
                        > <3 points snipped>
                        >
                        > Though I think that the three points mentioned by Mr. Hentzel
                        > would be very
                        > beneficial to NAQT, I am unsure how much they would help Canadian QB. In
                        > particular, gathering 10 schools to purchase 20 rounds of
                        > questions at $300
                        > seems very unlikely as there are very few QB programs in Canada
                        > to start with.

                        I, for one, am very ignorant of Canadian quiz bowl. How many schools are
                        there that play (at any level)? Perhaps 10 is far too ambitious; it was an
                        estimate born from my knowledge of NAQT's costs of production not from
                        strong marketing data.

                        For the record :-) I would like to think that, to some extent, what is good
                        for NAQT can be good for quiz bowl in general, American or Canadian. Ten
                        schools buying our questions _is_ $3,000 in our pockets (but we are out a
                        bunch of time), but it is also ten schools that can run quality intramurals
                        with relatively little work (no question writing) on the part of their
                        organizers. This seems like a positive thing. :-)

                        > To me, it seems unnecessary for NAQT to have to write exclusive Canadian
                        > content and hire a Canadian question writer/editor. It would be much more
                        > beneficial, from both the perspective of NAQT and Canadian QB, if NAQT
                        > simply provided regular packs, but without the American content. It would
                        > then be up to the Canadian QB body to substitute the missing American
                        > questions with Canadian questions. This body can either be the tournament
                        > host, or more ideally, CAQL. This increases accessibility for Canadian QB
                        > programs as these packs can presumably be purchased at a discount (since
                        > there are less questions). Furthermore, it reduces the burden on NAQT for
                        > having to divert resources to write Canadian questions. It would be much
                        > easier to have native Canadian quiz bowlers write questions than have NAQT
                        > go hunting for potential writers.

                        Our goal would be, of course, to hire native Canadian quiz bowlers to write
                        Canadian questions. :-) Possibly even people on this list. Whom did you
                        think we would hire to write Canadian questions?

                        In general NAQT does not permit other organizations to alter the questions
                        we provide; our brand is that which we hold most dear.

                        > Perhaps a team effort by NAQT and CAQL is what is necessary to
                        > get Canadian
                        > QB off the ground and into its own.

                        NAQT is extremely open to proposals (from CAQL or any other organization) as
                        to ways to work together to launch Canadian quiz bowl.

                        Here are some questions we would have:

                        1. What is the current Canadian market for Intramural questions? For
                        invitational tournaments?

                        2. What are the natural geographic areas into which Canada may be divided
                        for the purposes of quiz bowl competition?

                        I would love to see some specific ideas from people on this list (what is
                        the relationship between this list and CAQL?) as to ways in which NAQT could
                        work with the nascent Canadian circuit to the benefit of both.

                        -- R. Robert Hentzel
                        President and Chief Technical Officer,
                        National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC


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                      • David Thorsley
                        ... Excellent. If we were to run an IM with American questions, I can imagine half the players saying to me, Why didn t you take out the American questions?
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 28 5:01 AM
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                          >Zhan (and other Canadian quiz bowlers):
                          >
                          >NAQT is very interested in helping to develop a Canadian Quiz Bowl circuit
                          >that overlaps with, but is not dependent on, the American circuit.
                          >
                          >In particular:
                          >
                          >1. We are interested in producing Canadian sets (that is, not just reselling
                          >our American sets in Canada) of IMs (at least) and probably Invitational
                          >Series.
                          >

                          Excellent. If we were to run an IM with American questions, I can imagine
                          half the players saying to me, "Why didn't you take out the American
                          questions?" As NAQT does not sell advertising space on its packets, their
                          split-run shouldn't have any trouble with Sheila Copps :)

                          >2. We are interested in working toward the establishment of a
                          >"(English-speaking) World Championship" at some point in the near future
                          >which does not put any particular nationality at great disadvantage.
                          >

                          Having felt disadvantaged at ICT, once again I say excellent.

                          >3. We are interested in hiring Canadian writers and editors to help us with
                          >this and the Canadian content of our American sets.
                          >
                          I think what Zhan was getting at in his last message is that, as long as we
                          aren't swamped with work, some Canadian players would be willing to
                          volunteer our question-writing services for the short term. As the NAQT
                          name would be on the questions, they would have to be submitted for quality
                          control of course.

                          >We would be prepared to offer 1999-2000 Canadian Intramural questions if at
                          >least 10 schools signed on--in advance--to buy at least 20 rounds (US$300)
                          >_and_ we were able to sign on at least one native Canadian to assist us in
                          >editing the rounds. These questions could also be used (for a relatively
                          >small fee) to host high school tournaments.
                          >
                          >Is this feasible? We are very interested in hearing ideas for ways in which
                          >NAQT and established programs could work together to grow the Canadian
                          >circuit.
                          >
                          10 schools is pushing it -- only three of us are firmly entrenched at our
                          schools right now. Furthermore, I don't think we (UWO) would be able to
                          afford $500 Canadian for IM packets next year. An introductory deal of
                          accepting Canadian dollars at par would be good to get more schools to sign up.

                          I can't really estimate the market for IM packets other than it depends on
                          who knows that they're available. Except for Queen's, no one in Canada has
                          played CBI for more than one year at a time, so we're not already using a
                          competitor's product.

                          A good deal on Canadianized IM packets and some tournaments in Canada to
                          play at is an excellent infrastructure for starting clubs. If NAQT supplies
                          the first part, we can work on the second.

                          >-- R. Robert Hentzel
                          >President and Chief Technical Officer,
                          >National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC

                          Dave

                          [ The sale of advertising in the Canadian editions of "Time" and "Sports
                          Illustrated" is our latest trade dispute with the Americans. ]
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          David Thorsley -- dthorsle@...
                          http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9456/dave.html
                          Electrical Engineering / Media, Information and Technoculture
                          The University of Western Ontario

                          "I'd like it here if I could leave and see you from a long way away" (rem)



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                        • Gabriel Desjardins
                          On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, R. Robert Hentzel wrote: ... Well-funded: Queen s Funded: Waterloo, Western Un-funded, but somewhat established: Ottawa
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 28 10:44 AM
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                            On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, R. Robert Hentzel wrote:

                            ...
                            > > Though I think that the three points mentioned by Mr. Hentzel
                            > > would be very
                            > > beneficial to NAQT, I am unsure how much they would help Canadian QB. In
                            > > particular, gathering 10 schools to purchase 20 rounds of
                            > > questions at $300
                            > > seems very unlikely as there are very few QB programs in Canada
                            > > to start with.
                            >
                            > I, for one, am very ignorant of Canadian quiz bowl. How many schools are
                            > there that play (at any level)? Perhaps 10 is far too ambitious; it was an
                            > estimate born from my knowledge of NAQT's costs of production not from
                            > strong marketing data.

                            Well-funded: Queen's
                            Funded: Waterloo, Western
                            Un-funded, but somewhat established: Ottawa
                            Likely-soon-to-be-established: McGill, U of T, McMaster

                            Total annual funding for Canadian quizbowl < $2000...

                            ...
                            > In general NAQT does not permit other organizations to alter the questions
                            > we provide; our brand is that which we hold most dear.

                            Cornell and Queen's both modified NAQT questions in three tournaments.

                            > Here are some questions we would have:
                            >
                            > 1. What is the current Canadian market for Intramural questions? For
                            > invitational tournaments?

                            IM questions - very low. Three or four schools currently.
                            Invitational - higher, though still only for 3-5 tournaments per year.

                            > 2. What are the natural geographic areas into which Canada may be divided
                            > for the purposes of quiz bowl competition?

                            There are a few workable regions:

                            1. Southern Ontario (6 hour drive max)
                            - Windsor, Western, Laurier, Guelph, Brock, McMaster, York, Toronto,
                            Ryerson, Durham (soon), Trent

                            2. Eastern Ontario and Anglo Quebec (6 hour drive max)
                            - Queen's, RMC, Ottawa, Carleton, McGill, Concordia, Bishop's

                            3. Maritimes (8 hour drive max)
                            - Lots of small schools here

                            4. Lower Mainland BC (ferry is the rate-determining step)
                            - UVic, SFU, UBC

                            5. Prairies + NW Ontario (huge, 22 hours from UAB to Lakehead)
                            - UAB, Calgary, Regina, USask, UM, UW, Brandon, Lakehead

                            1 and 2 can play together, 3 has enough teams to exist on its own and can
                            play in Boston and further north, 4 can play in Washington State, 5 is too
                            big...

                            > I would love to see some specific ideas from people on this list (what is
                            > the relationship between this list and CAQL?) as to ways in which NAQT could
                            > work with the nascent Canadian circuit to the benefit of both.

                            I think we need to work Canada in as an intro circuit for now. THe best
                            thing would be for all Canadian teams to be allowed to play as Div. 2
                            teams in major tournaments. No one here has the experience playing that
                            youa ssociate with American students.

                            Gabe


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                          • Zhan Huan Zhou
                            ... As I recall, NAQT allowed Waterloo to substitute our own Canadian questions into the IM packs that we bought last year. ... Yes and no, David. What I
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 28 1:39 PM
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                              At 08:01 AM 4/28/99 -0400, David Thorsley wrote:
                              >Excellent. If we were to run an IM with American questions, I can imagine
                              >half the players saying to me, "Why didn't you take out the American
                              >questions?" As NAQT does not sell advertising space on its packets, their
                              >split-run shouldn't have any trouble with Sheila Copps :)

                              As I recall, NAQT allowed Waterloo to substitute our own Canadian questions
                              into the IM packs that we bought last year.

                              >I think what Zhan was getting at in his last message is that, as long as we
                              >aren't swamped with work, some Canadian players would be willing to
                              >volunteer our question-writing services for the short term. As the NAQT
                              >name would be on the questions, they would have to be submitted for quality
                              >control of course.

                              Yes and no, David. What I really meant was that NAQT itself does not have
                              to write the Canadian questions. It would be up to the some other body
                              (tournament host or CAQL). On the other hand, it is probably much easier
                              if NAQT hired some people off this list to write and edit the Canadian
                              questions. The only problem I can see with this is that the game is no
                              longer "pure Canadian." Considering the amount resources available,
                              however, having a "pure Canadian" circuit doesn't seem likely in the near
                              future. A team effort between Canada and NAQT is probably our best bet
                              right now, as David suggests below.

                              >A good deal on Canadianized IM packets and some tournaments in Canada to
                              >play at is an excellent infrastructure for starting clubs. If NAQT supplies
                              >the first part, we can work on the second.



                              Zhan Huan Zhou
                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              3A Computer Engineering, Flying Circuits, University of Waterloo
                              Founder of Waterloo Quiz Bowl
                              Web: http://www.biosys.net/zhan, ICQ: 4822616
                              Email: zhzhou@...

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                            • Zhan Huan Zhou
                              ... The high school Reach for the Top circuit is much larger and more well known than the university QB circuit. I would guess there are several hundred
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 28 1:45 PM
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                                At 10:30 PM 4/27/99 -0500, R. Robert Hentzel wrote:
                                >I, for one, am very ignorant of Canadian quiz bowl. How many schools are
                                >there that play (at any level)? Perhaps 10 is far too ambitious; it was an
                                >estimate born from my knowledge of NAQT's costs of production not from
                                >strong marketing data.

                                The high school "Reach for the Top" circuit is much larger and more well
                                known than the university QB circuit. I would guess there are several
                                hundred high schools involved with Reach in all of Canada. As far as I
                                know, only three universities have quiz bowl.

                                >1. What is the current Canadian market for Intramural questions? For
                                >invitational tournaments?

                                I only speak for Waterloo when I say this, but we would likely purchase
                                both an intramural and invitational set next year if we have the money. I
                                would think that Queen's and Western would also be in the same boat.


                                Zhan Huan Zhou
                                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                3A Computer Engineering, Flying Circuits, University of Waterloo
                                Founder of Waterloo Quiz Bowl
                                Web: http://www.biosys.net/zhan, ICQ: 4822616
                                Email: zhzhou@...

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                              • R. Robert Hentzel
                                ... That is true (as is Gabe s mention that we permitted Canadianization by Queen s at both of their tournaments for which NAQT supplied questions). Such cases
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 2, 1999
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                                  > At 08:01 AM 4/28/99 -0400, David Thorsley wrote:
                                  > >Excellent. If we were to run an IM with American questions, I
                                  > can imagine
                                  > >half the players saying to me, "Why didn't you take out the American
                                  > >questions?" As NAQT does not sell advertising space on its
                                  > packets, their
                                  > >split-run shouldn't have any trouble with Sheila Copps :)
                                  >
                                  > As I recall, NAQT allowed Waterloo to substitute our own Canadian
                                  > questions
                                  > into the IM packs that we bought last year.

                                  That is true (as is Gabe's mention that we permitted Canadianization by
                                  Queen's at both of their tournaments for which NAQT supplied questions).
                                  Such cases are exceptions rather than the rule, however.

                                  > >I think what Zhan was getting at in his last message is that, as
                                  > long as we
                                  > >aren't swamped with work, some Canadian players would be willing to
                                  > >volunteer our question-writing services for the short term. As the NAQT
                                  > >name would be on the questions, they would have to be submitted
                                  > for quality
                                  > >control of course.
                                  >
                                  > Yes and no, David. What I really meant was that NAQT itself does not have
                                  > to write the Canadian questions. It would be up to the some other body
                                  > (tournament host or CAQL). On the other hand, it is probably much easier
                                  > if NAQT hired some people off this list to write and edit the Canadian
                                  > questions. The only problem I can see with this is that the game is no
                                  > longer "pure Canadian." Considering the amount resources available,
                                  > however, having a "pure Canadian" circuit doesn't seem likely in the near
                                  > future. A team effort between Canada and NAQT is probably our best bet
                                  > right now, as David suggests below.

                                  NAQT would like to discuss the possibility of collaborating on Canadian
                                  packets for the 1999-2000 year. If questions and content analysis ("That's
                                  too American.") can be provided cheaply, we can make the packets available
                                  for sale more cheaply. CAQL appears to be the only organization in Canadian
                                  quiz bowl right now; if somebody from it could officially contact us with
                                  authority to negotiate some sort of arrangement we could go to work to see
                                  if would iron out some sort of deal beneficial to both sides.

                                  R.


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                                • R. Robert Hentzel
                                  ... If NAQT and CAQL collaborated on producing a Canadian high school set for those three schools to host tournaments, would high schools attend in enough
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 2, 1999
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                                    > The high school "Reach for the Top" circuit is much larger and more well
                                    > known than the university QB circuit. I would guess there are several
                                    > hundred high schools involved with Reach in all of Canada. As far as I
                                    > know, only three universities have quiz bowl.

                                    If NAQT and CAQL collaborated on producing a Canadian high school set for
                                    those three schools to host tournaments, would high schools attend in enough
                                    numbers for it to be worthwhile to all concerned?

                                    R.


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                                  • Bruce Lin
                                    Now this is an interesting question, and one which I thought about immediately when the original message was posted. Are we interested in running high school
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 2, 1999
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                                      Now this is an interesting question, and one which I thought about
                                      immediately when the original message was posted. Are we interested in
                                      running high school tournaments in order to raise profile of the
                                      university program and cash? I'm personally much more interested in
                                      getting the university program off the ground, but if it's money we need
                                      ...

                                      I've been told that high schools pay Reach a lot of money, on the order of
                                      $600 CDN per year. This gives them a stack of practice questions, maybe
                                      fifteen games against other teams in city-wide play, and a shot at the
                                      nationals. If they have that kind of money, maybe they can afford ... $50?
                                      to compete in a tournament?

                                      Martingrove CI in Etobicoke (just outside Toronto) used to run a one-day
                                      invitational for schools in the Toronto area. About 20-30 showed up, I
                                      think. I believe the students wrote all their own questions, but I don't
                                      know how much they charged. I could ask Bart from MCI who's here at
                                      Princeton grad school.

                                      Organizing a separate tournament would almost certainly be seen as a
                                      threat by RFTT. (Or would it? Perhaps there would be room for CAQL weekend
                                      mega tournaments) I would note, however, that playing NAQT-style questions
                                      would not necessarily be good preparation for RFTT competition (RFTT is
                                      way faster and not as difficult by a long shot). RFTT would probably be
                                      seen as the most highly sought-after provincial/national championship for
                                      the near future.

                                      I don't know how willing high school coaches would be to send their kids
                                      to one of our tournaments. If given a chance I think we could do well, and
                                      word of mouth might help from there. Toronto could be a very large, very
                                      nicely centralized market. What do you guys think about the other cities?

                                      Bruce

                                      On Sun, 2 May 1999, R. Robert Hentzel wrote:

                                      > > The high school "Reach for the Top" circuit is much larger and more well
                                      > > known than the university QB circuit. I would guess there are several
                                      > > hundred high schools involved with Reach in all of Canada. As far as I
                                      > > know, only three universities have quiz bowl.
                                      >
                                      > If NAQT and CAQL collaborated on producing a Canadian high school set for
                                      > those three schools to host tournaments, would high schools attend in enough
                                      > numbers for it to be worthwhile to all concerned?
                                      >
                                      > R.


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