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Re: Judging and weapon legality

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  • Will
    I have an idea. Why don t we start the groundwork towards producing a standardized set of criteria for judging. Kind of a set of rules that judges should
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 12, 2006
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      I have an idea. Why don't we start the groundwork towards producing a
      standardized set of criteria for judging. Kind of a set of rules that
      judges should follow. Like when it comes to garb, a judge should check
      the quality of the seams, not just if the thing looks cool. Also, when
      it comes to armor, what is the safety factors for others who are
      likely to be near the armor as it's being used, like 3" long
      ornamental spikes which could be dangerous. etc, etc, etc.

      In figure skating there is a set of criteria that judges need to
      follow for the 'technical' aspect of a routine. How well orchestrated
      was that 'triple-axel', and so on. This might be a good idea, but it
      could also be a bad idea. It would be folly for this to get out of
      hand and delve into every single minute aspect that judging could
      possibly encompass. Doing that would likely remove any freedom of
      choice that judges would have. Like, "Man, who needs a tunic with
      rhinestones in Amtgard, it looks horrible. However, it's seams are the
      best I've ever seen, so while I won't give it a perfect score, I'll
      give it a 4.0", and the judge should note that.

      Whats everyone think?

      Riff Raff

      --- In pvlist@yahoogroups.com, "Exedor Wayfel" <Exedor.Wayfel@...> wrote:
      >
      > I feel compelled to post, but I'm at work and so I'll refrain from a
      > long-winded response.
      >
      > I agree with Glenalth that illegal (ruleswise) weapons/shields/field
      items
      > that are entered into categories for items meant to be allowed on
      the field,
      > should be either disqualified or scored such that it doesn't qualify for
      > anything. I think we used to have a category for things like that.
      I think
      > it all ended up in the Rose category, which was some kind of
      "catch-all."
      > At least there it wasn't immediately disqualified so someone could still
      > qualify if they didn't bring enough other things. In any case, I'm
      against
      > things being allowed into categories they don't belong. As for judges
      > collaborating, I can go either way on that, both sides have merits,
      however,
      > one big point in favor of it is the exact situation here in that you
      have
      > two experienced judges and two inexperienced judges. Collaboration
      in that
      > situation would certainly help the new judges "learn the ropes," so to
      > speak. Also, saying that the person running the competetion
      shouldn't be
      > allowed, or simply shouldn't, advise people which category things
      belong in
      > just seems rediculous to me. Who better to have such advice?
      >
      > Part of Skywalker's opinion against the double-blind method probably
      comes
      > from an incident ages ago where we had a member enter some things into a
      > jewelry category that were awesome. Several of the judges decided
      that at
      > least one item was too good to have actually been done by someone in
      Amtgard
      > and gave it 1's. The item (a ring, if I remember) scored really
      really low
      > and the owner was very upset. Turns out that that member's father was a
      > jewelrysmith and he, himself, was pretty good at it also and he had, of
      > course, actually made the ring. He told us exaclty how he made it,
      all the
      > steps involved, etc. This is kind of the opposite situation from
      the 6-yr
      > old getting his feelings hurt because he receives a low score because it
      > looks like a 6-yr old did it. Either way, collaboration can help.
      (On the
      > other hand, I see the merit in not collaborating to prevent favoritism.)
      >
      > Anyway, so much for not being long-winded. See you all at the feast,
      > probably..
      >
      > Exedor
    • Glenalth
      Right off the bat, here is a copy of what PV was using in the past for quals and tournament rules. It has been updated for Dragon s Tooth in the last few years
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 12, 2006
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        Right off the bat, here is a copy of what PV was using in the past for
        quals and tournament rules. It has been updated for Dragon's Tooth in
        the last few years but the meat of it is basically the same. I've also
        noticed that there are a few additions that need to be made because of
        the new Dragonspine corpora.
        http://www.pegasusvalley.com/downloads/dttournaments.pdf

        Here's what I'm looking for when I'm judging:
        1. How well is it made?
        2. How hard was it to make?
        3. Does it look good (or sometimes correct like for reproductions)?
        4. If it has an active use, how well will it hold up?
        5. Is there any originality in the piece?
        6. Is this in some way Amtgard related?
        7. The 5.0 score is only awarded if I can look at a piece and say there
        is nothing that could be added/changed to make this more perfect than it
        already is. Exactly the opposite goes into the score of a 1.0 (could
        this be any worse?).

        Things that need to be looked into:
        1. A standard format for crown quals and other tournaments should be
        implemented. There was one in the past, but it seems to have gone away
        since I moved. This helps in many ways, but the most important is that
        people will know exactly what the categories are at any point in time
        instead of only 2-6 weeks as has happened in the past. Once we have this
        in place, it makes it much easier to implement judging standards.

        2. The age or experience of the entrant should not be revealed at all.
        It may be a bit discouraging for the person to get a lower score on
        their first shot, but it helps things out in the long run as the scores
        should improve as they do. Say that I'm a newbie and my first weapon I
        enter in crown quals gets a 4.0 because I've only been playing for a
        month and the judges know this. I'm happy because my weapon was received
        a good score. Then 6 months later I make a better weapon and it scores
        3.0 because it's average for someone that's been playing for a while,
        I'm going to be very pissed, much more so than if my first weapon had
        received a 2.0.

        3. There needs to be some more communication of information to the
        judges. A card explaining the piece or the processes involved in the
        construction should always be entered along with the item. This also
        gets the tournament organizer more free time because they don't have to
        track down entrants to ask about the items as often.

        4. "Newbie" judges need some training before judging. A few practice
        items for judging with various defects to look for, like loose threads
        or bad seams on garb and weapons with insufficient padding. A written
        handout could help and I have a few from other groups that I can share
        or update to fit our use.

        5. Disqualification of items. If someone enters a pair of pants into
        weapon construction or 3D art, the organizer of the event needs to
        instruct the entrant on the correct category of face disqualification of
        the entry. In the case of weapons, it needs to be very clear that the
        weapon needs to meet every construction rule in the book to be entered
        into a legal weapon category. With the exception of "the weapon may not
        leave marks or bruises" the rulebook is now very clear on what is legal
        and what is not and I can draw up a quick cheat sheet if that would be
        helpful.

        There's more, but I've already been staring at this too long.

        - Glenalth
      • Glenalth
        Disqualifying weapons also makes it very obvious to the entrant that their weapon was illegal. A low score might just mean that it s ugly. In the last 2 quals
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 12, 2006
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          Disqualifying weapons also makes it very obvious to the entrant that
          their weapon was illegal. A low score might just mean that it's ugly.

          In the last 2 quals that I judged one had 75% of the weapons entered be
          declared illegal and the last I think was around 50% illegal (by my
          judging anyway). Do any of the people that entered know that their
          weapon was deemed illegal by even one of the judges?

          I'd also like to say that I believe that judges should make comments on
          all the items entered to give back to the entrant to understand why they
          were scored the way they were. Otherwise, what good are the scores
          instead of just saying qualified or not qualified?

          - Glenalth


          Exedor Wayfel wrote:
          > I feel compelled to post, but I'm at work and so I'll refrain from a
          > long-winded response.
          >
          > I agree with Glenalth that illegal (ruleswise) weapons/shields/field items
          > that are entered into categories for items meant to be allowed on the field,
          > should be either disqualified or scored such that it doesn't qualify for
          > anything. I think we used to have a category for things like that. I think
          > it all ended up in the Rose category, which was some kind of "catch-all."
          > At least there it wasn't immediately disqualified so someone could still
          > qualify if they didn't bring enough other things. In any case, I'm against
          > things being allowed into categories they don't belong. As for judges
          > collaborating, I can go either way on that, both sides have merits, however,
          > one big point in favor of it is the exact situation here in that you have
          > two experienced judges and two inexperienced judges. Collaboration in that
          > situation would certainly help the new judges "learn the ropes," so to
          > speak. Also, saying that the person running the competetion shouldn't be
          > allowed, or simply shouldn't, advise people which category things belong in
          > just seems rediculous to me. Who better to have such advice?
          >
          > Part of Skywalker's opinion against the double-blind method probably comes
          > from an incident ages ago where we had a member enter some things into a
          > jewelry category that were awesome. Several of the judges decided that at
          > least one item was too good to have actually been done by someone in Amtgard
          > and gave it 1's. The item (a ring, if I remember) scored really really low
          > and the owner was very upset. Turns out that that member's father was a
          > jewelrysmith and he, himself, was pretty good at it also and he had, of
          > course, actually made the ring. He told us exaclty how he made it, all the
          > steps involved, etc. This is kind of the opposite situation from the 6-yr
          > old getting his feelings hurt because he receives a low score because it
          > looks like a 6-yr old did it. Either way, collaboration can help. (On the
          > other hand, I see the merit in not collaborating to prevent favoritism.)
          >
          > Anyway, so much for not being long-winded. See you all at the feast,
          > probably..
          >
          > Exedor
          >
          > On 3/11/06, William Pearson <riffraffdj@...> wrote:
          >
          >> I understand what your saying but consider this.
          >>
          >> Judges are always considered to be biased, anyone watch the Olympics? If
          >> Kyrie were to look at a weapon and tell the person, "This isn't legal, you
          >> should put it into a different category." That would likely give it an
          >> artificially higher score than otherwise. After all, if the person made a
          >> weapon for the 'amtgard legal weapon' category and it ended up not being
          >> legal, it would get a low score as a result. But, if Kyrie noticed that it
          >> wasn't legal and placed it into an 'art' category, it would get a higher
          >> score as a result. Wouldn't that be bias?
          >>
          >> Double Blind judging is always considered to be the most fair. If a person
          >> knows nothing about an item in question and only has the item in front of
          >> them to judge, naturally those results are considered fairer than
          >> otherwise.
          >> That is what Kyrie did as best as possible.
          >>
          >> Getting judging in Amtgard to be perfect is likely an impossibility. There
          >> were four judges, two of them were veterans and the other two were
          >> newbies.
          >> One might think that we should have gotten more veterans and excluded the
          >> newbies. Without newbies getting into the judging process to see how
          >> things
          >> should be judged, then nobody will ever get to the point where they are
          >> considered veterans. It was a nice balance between experience and youth.
          >>
          >> If one wants perfection one should go to Olympiad where most of the judges
          >> are Serpent Belts. That is about as close to perfect judging one is likely
          >> to find in Amtgard.
          >>
          >> Riff Raff
          >>
          >> On 10 Mar 2006 19:49:23 -0000, pvlist@yahoogroups.com <
          >> pvlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:03:35 -0700
          >>> From: "Steve Walker" <skywlker@...>
          >>> Subject: Judging and weapon legality
          >>>
          >>> Hi folks,
          >>>
          >>> Don't mean to write a book here, but these are some things that I try to
          >>> pull into judging whenever I run a competition. It isn't all inclusive,
          >>> add
          >>> where you can, but it addresses some of the CQ issues that have cropped
          >>> up.
          >>>
          >>> When judging, one should always look at whether the judged item actually
          >>> portrays what it is supposed to be. In the past, a non legal (book
          >>>
          >> legal,
          >>
          >>> that is, not whether you would want to be hit by it) weapon has been
          >>> disqualified, because it did not fit into the category of legal weapon.
          >>>
          >> If
          >>
          >>> the weapon was not legal and the owner knew that it was not legal, then
          >>>
          >> it
          >>
          >>> should have been placed in some other art category.
          >>>
          >>> Where I think this is a good ruling if this criteria is told before the
          >>> judging, I believe that a weapon should be judged on the amount of
          >>> legality
          >>> that it has. If the weapon is 1 inch short of being a short sword, then
          >>>
          >> it
          >>
          >>> is an illegal short sword, but only by 1 inch. This may be counted as a
          >>> deduction, but not so much that the weapon would be totally
          >>>
          >> disqualified.
          >>
          >>> Items should be judged on their merit, not on their faults. Always start
          >>> with a perfect score and deduct points instead of flat out disqualifying
          >>> something if it doesn't fit into a category. Of course, if someone
          >>>
          >> places
          >>
          >>> a
          >>> real knife in the legal pole arm category, then there might be a
          >>>
          >> terribly
          >>
          >>> low score in store for them.
          >>>
          >>> Another thing that I have seen too much is non-collaboration on the part
          >>> of
          >>> the judges. Realize that some judges may know more about one item's
          >>> creation
          >>> than another judge. A 6 year old may have made a piece of art and 3
          >>>
          >> judges
          >>
          >>> knew about it, but 1 didn't. Does that mean that the child has to take
          >>> that
          >>> 1 judge's low score, because that judge thought that it looked like a 6
          >>> year
          >>> old did it? Collaboration between judges is essential to coming up with
          >>>
          >> a
          >>
          >>> fair score. All judges should compare scores if there is too much of a
          >>> discrepancy between them. Either that, or there should be a method to
          >>>
          >> drop
          >>
          >>> high and low scores and average the ones in between. Most judges are
          >>> impartial, but it is hard to be so, when you don't have a crucial piece
          >>>
          >> of
          >>
          >>> information.
          >>>
          >>> Skywalker
          >>>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
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          >
          >
          > --
          > Exedor Wayfel
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
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        • Wesley&Paula
          Writing comments might work up here where you only have maybe 5 entries per catagory, but if you are at an event like Dragonspine use to have. The one I ran
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 12, 2006
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            Writing comments might work up here where you only
            have maybe 5 entries per catagory, but if you are at
            an event like Dragonspine use to have. The one I ran
            had about 15 to 20 entries per catagory with about 10
            to 15 catagories. It would have been impossible to get
            all the entrents their scores and type up all the
            coments for each entry. As far as illegal weapons they
            would know if they were illegal the first time they
            were checked by the Champion. The crown qual judges
            themselves can not disqualify or pull a weapon from
            the field. They are just there to judge the
            catagories. As far as little kids entries, the entry
            just has to have made by a 6 year old on it. They are
            not trying to qual for any position, so no one will
            care how they were scored. We need to encourage the
            little ones to enter crown quals. that should count
            for something until they hit the Legal Amtgard age of
            14 then they should have to be qualified like everyone
            else.


            Lord F'lar Starfire


            --- Glenalth <glenalthw@...> wrote:

            > Disqualifying weapons also makes it very obvious to
            > the entrant that
            > their weapon was illegal. A low score might just
            > mean that it's ugly.
            >
            > In the last 2 quals that I judged one had 75% of the
            > weapons entered be
            > declared illegal and the last I think was around 50%
            > illegal (by my
            > judging anyway). Do any of the people that entered
            > know that their
            > weapon was deemed illegal by even one of the judges?
            >
            > I'd also like to say that I believe that judges
            > should make comments on
            > all the items entered to give back to the entrant to
            > understand why they
            > were scored the way they were. Otherwise, what good
            > are the scores
            > instead of just saying qualified or not qualified?
            >
            > - Glenalth
            >
            >
            > Exedor Wayfel wrote:
            > > I feel compelled to post, but I'm at work and so
            > I'll refrain from a
            > > long-winded response.
            > >
            > > I agree with Glenalth that illegal (ruleswise)
            > weapons/shields/field items
            > > that are entered into categories for items meant
            > to be allowed on the field,
            > > should be either disqualified or scored such that
            > it doesn't qualify for
            > > anything. I think we used to have a category for
            > things like that. I think
            > > it all ended up in the Rose category, which was
            > some kind of "catch-all."
            > > At least there it wasn't immediately disqualified
            > so someone could still
            > > qualify if they didn't bring enough other things.
            > In any case, I'm against
            > > things being allowed into categories they don't
            > belong. As for judges
            > > collaborating, I can go either way on that, both
            > sides have merits, however,
            > > one big point in favor of it is the exact
            > situation here in that you have
            > > two experienced judges and two inexperienced
            > judges. Collaboration in that
            > > situation would certainly help the new judges
            > "learn the ropes," so to
            > > speak. Also, saying that the person running the
            > competetion shouldn't be
            > > allowed, or simply shouldn't, advise people which
            > category things belong in
            > > just seems rediculous to me. Who better to have
            > such advice?
            > >
            > > Part of Skywalker's opinion against the
            > double-blind method probably comes
            > > from an incident ages ago where we had a member
            > enter some things into a
            > > jewelry category that were awesome. Several of
            > the judges decided that at
            > > least one item was too good to have actually been
            > done by someone in Amtgard
            > > and gave it 1's. The item (a ring, if I remember)
            > scored really really low
            > > and the owner was very upset. Turns out that that
            > member's father was a
            > > jewelrysmith and he, himself, was pretty good at
            > it also and he had, of
            > > course, actually made the ring. He told us
            > exaclty how he made it, all the
            > > steps involved, etc. This is kind of the opposite
            > situation from the 6-yr
            > > old getting his feelings hurt because he receives
            > a low score because it
            > > looks like a 6-yr old did it. Either way,
            > collaboration can help. (On the
            > > other hand, I see the merit in not collaborating
            > to prevent favoritism.)
            > >
            > > Anyway, so much for not being long-winded. See
            > you all at the feast,
            > > probably..
            > >
            > > Exedor
            > >
            > > On 3/11/06, William Pearson <riffraffdj@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >> I understand what your saying but consider this.
            > >>
            > >> Judges are always considered to be biased, anyone
            > watch the Olympics? If
            > >> Kyrie were to look at a weapon and tell the
            > person, "This isn't legal, you
            > >> should put it into a different category." That
            > would likely give it an
            > >> artificially higher score than otherwise. After
            > all, if the person made a
            > >> weapon for the 'amtgard legal weapon' category
            > and it ended up not being
            > >> legal, it would get a low score as a result. But,
            > if Kyrie noticed that it
            > >> wasn't legal and placed it into an 'art'
            > category, it would get a higher
            > >> score as a result. Wouldn't that be bias?
            > >>
            > >> Double Blind judging is always considered to be
            > the most fair. If a person
            > >> knows nothing about an item in question and only
            > has the item in front of
            > >> them to judge, naturally those results are
            > considered fairer than
            > >> otherwise.
            > >> That is what Kyrie did as best as possible.
            > >>
            > >> Getting judging in Amtgard to be perfect is
            > likely an impossibility. There
            > >> were four judges, two of them were veterans and
            > the other two were
            > >> newbies.
            > >> One might think that we should have gotten more
            > veterans and excluded the
            > >> newbies. Without newbies getting into the judging
            > process to see how
            > >> things
            > >> should be judged, then nobody will ever get to
            > the point where they are
            > >> considered veterans. It was a nice balance
            > between experience and youth.
            > >>
            > >> If one wants perfection one should go to Olympiad
            > where most of the judges
            > >> are Serpent Belts. That is about as close to
            > perfect judging one is likely
            > >> to find in Amtgard.
            > >>
            > >> Riff Raff
            > >>
            > >> On 10 Mar 2006 19:49:23 -0000,
            > pvlist@yahoogroups.com <
            > >> pvlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > >>
            > >>> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 19:03:35 -0700
            > >>> From: "Steve Walker" <skywlker@...>
            > >>> Subject: Judging and weapon legality
            > >>>
            > >>> Hi folks,
            > >>>
            > >>> Don't mean to write a book here, but these are
            > some things that I try to
            > >>> pull into judging whenever I run a competition.
            > It isn't all inclusive,
            > >>> add
            > >>> where you can, but it addresses some of the CQ
            > issues that have cropped
            > >>> up.
            > >>>
            > >>> When judging, one should always look at whether
            > the judged item actually
            > >>> portrays what it is supposed to be. In the past,
            > a non legal (book
            > >>>
            > >> legal,
            > >>
            > >>> that is, not whether you would want to be hit by
            > it) weapon has been
            > >>> disqualified, because it did not fit into the
            > category of legal weapon.
            > >>>
            > >> If
            > >>
            > >>> the weapon was not legal and the owner knew that
            > it was not legal, then
            > >>>
            > >> it
            > >>
            > >>> should have been placed in some other art
            > category.
            > >>>
            > >>> Where I think this is a good ruling if this
            > criteria is told before the
            > >>> judging, I believe that a weapon should be
            > judged on the amount of
            > >>> legality
            > >>> that it has. If the weapon is 1 inch short of
            > being a short sword, then
            > >>>
            > >> it
            > >>
            > >>> is an illegal short sword, but only by 1 inch.
            > This may be counted as a
            > >>> deduction, but not so much that the weapon would
            > be totally
            > >>>
            > >> disqualified.
            >
            === message truncated ===


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