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RE: [psychiatry-research] What do the frontal/pre-frontal lobes do?

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  • Glynn Owens
    Wow, this is briliant, I never realised that publishing an article in a journal with a particular field in its name made one an expert in that field. Let s
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 8, 2013
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      Wow, this is briliant, I never realised that publishing an article in a journal with a particular field in its name made one an expert in that field.  Let's see now, I've published in lots of journals with 'psychology' in the name so that qualifies me to tell psychologists that they're wrong; I've published in statistics journals so that qualifies me to tell the statisticians they're wrong; publishing in medical journals qualifies me to tell the medics that they're wrong, ah wonderful......

       

      You really are wonderfully funny at times, James.....

       

      G


      From: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com [psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of james kohl [jvkohl@...]
      Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2013 1:02 a.m.
      To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] What do the frontal/pre-frontal lobes do?

       

      From: Glynn Owens <g.owens@...>
      To: "psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com" <psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, March 8, 2013 6:47:26 AM
      Subject: RE: [psychiatry-research] Re: [human-ethology] What do the frontal/pre-frontal lobes do?

       

      So presumably it would be unconscionable and contemptible for someone who hadn’t taken a course in *psychology* to challenge repeatedly *Glen’s* published work in the field?  Oh dear, JVK, you *do* leave yourself open sometimes….. J

      What published works by Sizemore have I challenged? Why do you infer that I've never taken a course in psychology? Did you happen to notice where my most recent paper was published? In Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology. The word Neuroscience in the journal title links the published work to psychiatry research.

       
      James V. Kohl
      Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
      Independent researcher
      Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


       

      From: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com [mailto:psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of james kohl
      Sent: Friday, 8 March 2013 4:58 a.m.
      To: human-ethology@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com; cognitiveneuroscienceforum@yahoogroups.com; psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [psychiatry-research] Re: [human-ethology] What do the frontal/pre-frontal lobes do?

       

      Glen Sizemore wrote: "I have never taken a course in physiology from a biology dept. or medical school, but I have had two undergrad courses in what used to be called "physiological psychology" (one could be taken for graduate credit) and I took two graduate seminars, one in neuroethology and the other in developmental neurobiology. These were taken a long time ago and I don't consider myself an expert."

      JK: And yet, Glen Sizemore has repeatedly commented negatively on my published works, which includes the award winning Human pheromones: integrating neuroendocrinology and ethology co-authored by ethologists from Vienna, including Karl Grammer. For someone who is so far outside the field and has no educational background to repeatedly challenge my expertise is, in my opinion, unconscionable and contemptable.

       

      James V. Kohl
      Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
      Independent researcher
      Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.

       

       


      From: Glen Sizemore <radicalbehaviorist2@...>
      To: "human-ethology@yahoogroups.com" <human-ethology@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, March 7, 2013 9:46:29 AM
      Subject: [human-ethology] What do the frontal/pre-frontal lobes do?

       

      My opinion is that when you say things like the function of the frontal lobes is (or includes) "planning," it is akin to saying that the function of the heart is to "sustain life."  I think that "motor areas" are probably very complex and we don't yet know how to talk about their functions. For example, when someone begins to practice what is at first a very clumsy piano "arpeggio" it is as if each key press is "an act" in and of itself. And each press "is the cue" (to avoid what I like to call "big-boy" or "grown-up" terminology) for the next key-press. But eventually, the arpeggio clearly becomes a "single act" with the time in between individual key-presses insufficient for the preceding press to "serve as a cue" for the succedent one. How does this happen? And I don't want an answer like "one of the functions of the cerebellum is fine-motor control." What brain areas support the transition from individual key-presses as acts and the emergence of the arpeggio? It is naive to talk about brain areas "subserving movement" without getting in to details like this. And, I think, that saying the function of some motor area is to "move the body" is as naive as saying that the function of the heart is to "preserve life" (or that a function of the frontal lobes is "planning"). I have never taken a course in physiology from a biology dept. or medical school, but I have had two undergrad courses in what used to be called "physiological psychology" (one could be taken for graduate credit) and I took two graduate seminars, one in neuroethology and the other in developmental neurobiology. These were taken a long time ago and I don't consider myself an expert. I have also read books and papers by a distinct minority of scientists and philosophers who are critical of the glib naivety of much of neuro"science" as well as cognitive "science" and cognitive neuro"science." Have you read any of this material? I am, in case I haven't made this clear, describing almost everything you say as "glib," "gratuitous," and "naive." 
      Best Regards,
      Glen  

      On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Jay Feierman <jay.feierman84@...> wrote:
      >
      >  
      >
      > Hello Glen,
      >
      > How about if I ask you "What are some of the functions of the heart or the kidney?" How would you handle that question? Appreciate that a lot of scientists start with organs and tissues once their anatomy has been understood and then ask the next question, "What does it do?" or "What is its function?" In reference to the brain, if you gave an answer of "move the body" to the question of "What are some of the functions of the frontal motor strip?" that would not mean that the frontal motor strip is a sufficient cause of moving the body. It is only a contributing cause. So given that qualification, would you still not be wiling to say that "moving the body" is one of the functions of the frontal motor strip and that the frontal motor strip is only a proximate, contributing cause of the body moving? And lastly, have you ever taken a physiology course? If you have, these are standard types of questions asked.
      > Regards,
      > Jay R. Feierman
      > Regards,
      > Jay R. Feierman
      >
      > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Glen Sizemore <radicalbehaviorist2@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>  
      >>
      >> People who actually understand the complexity of behavior understand that those answers are not known. It is not even clear what forms the answers can take. For example, the fact that you could alter already established CRs by simply presenting a more intense US (by itself) was not known until recently. So , clearly, one could not even describe some brain areas as pertinent to that function. The problem is similar when one tries to , naively, discuss brain areas relevant to some complex behavior. First one must ascertain of what (if any) more basic processes the complex behavior in question is composed. Or is the behavior a sort of primitive in and of itself? Is "planning" really the sort of unitary phenomenon that you are implying etc.? That's how a non-naive scientist must look at such a problem. I think that a similar complexity pertains to "motor areas." I think that your view of behavior is simply too naive to encompass these issues. I think that there is a lot of that about.
      >>
      >> On Mar 6, 2013 9:09 PM, "Jay Feierman" <jay.feierman84@...> wrote:
      >>>
      >>>  
      >>>
      >>> Jay R. Feierman: I don't think you have answered my simple question, "What are the functions of the (pre) frontal cortex?" I'm not asking about papers in the literature. I'm asking you.
      >>>
      >>> Glen Sizemore: There is no simple answer to that and only the simpleminded would think that there is. 
      >>> Jay R. Feierman [NEW]: Hello again Glen. I didn't say the answer was "simple," only the question, which is "What are the functions of the (pre) frontal cortex?" I find it significant that you don't answer a simple question. The brain is an organ composed of many different types of tissues, including the tissues of the (pre) frontal cortex. Would you have the same type of answer if I asked you "What are some of the functions of the kidney or the heart?" Why should a question about a part of the brain be any different? What if I asked you, "What are the functions of the motor strip on the frontal cortex?" Surely that simple question has an answer. It is almost like, "Who is buried in Grant's tomb?"
      >
      >

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