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Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

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  • Psycho Dogg
    Sigvard, I don t know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it. Until a
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 2, 2010
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      Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it. Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.

      dogg


      From: Sigvard Lingh <Sigvard.Lingh@...>
      To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

       

      If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.


      Right?

      /Sigvard

      2010/11/1 dixie_dean <dixie_dean@...>
       

      Already a fact

      Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
      illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
      closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me

      TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
      revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
      business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
      Sounds good to me

      dixie
      -----

      On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <smithsurf@...>
      wrote:


      > Hi Robert.
      >  
      > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
      than
      > the illegal ones!  It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
      > assumptions!
      >  
      > Cheers for posting,
      >  
      > Mark.
       
      <Snip>

    • Psycho Dogg
      RKS, there are several errors in your post, but the one I want to highlight is that Kava IS available in the US in capsule form. dogg
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 2, 2010
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        RKS, there are several errors in your post, but the one I want to highlight is that Kava IS available in the US in capsule form.

        dogg


        From: Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...>
        To: Psychiatry-Research <psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 10:15:19 PM
        Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

         

        If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.


        Right?

        /Sigvard

        RKS:
        Coffee would not require FDA approval and so would not be regulated by them (or by similar bodies in other countries.)  There is a whole range of similar drugs which are not regulated but have not been introduced to the US such as betel and kava, which Oliver Sacks said 'got him mildly stoned'.
         
        To be banned the drug must have a certain type of clientele and a certain type of distribution.  If caffeine was illegal and distributed via drug dealers then the type of caffeine taken by drug users would be strong enough to cause hallucinations and other drug effects.  Indeed, the more strongly cannabis was policed the stronger the street variety became until today it is more or less a hard drug, especially compared to the soft drug form common in the 60s and 70s.
         
        Robert

      • Beckie Child
        I m not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have is not
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 2, 2010
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          I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have is not accurate. 

          Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic.  Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.  This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom.   Many Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate.  Having spent 27 years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were widely available.  The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol in the State.  It's been a while since I lived there or even visited there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it.  Beer is available for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states. 

          Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation is put forward as fact.

          beckie

          On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg <psychotic_dogg@...> wrote:
           

          Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it. Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.

          dogg


          From: Sigvard Lingh <Sigvard.Lingh@...>
          To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

           

          If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.


          Right?

          /Sigvard

          2010/11/1 dixie_dean <dixie_dean@...>
           

          Already a fact

          Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
          illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
          closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me

          TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
          revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
          business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
          Sounds good to me

          dixie
          -----

          On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <smithsurf@...>
          wrote:


          > Hi Robert.
          >  
          > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
          than
          > the illegal ones!  It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
          > assumptions!
          >  
          > Cheers for posting,
          >  
          > Mark.
           
          <Snip>




          --
          "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
          psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

          www.mhaoforegon.com
        • Sigvard Lingh
          Dogg, I had a lot of contact with Mormons i Sweden when I was very young. They had strict rules for many things, but they never spoke about satanic things. I
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 2, 2010
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            Dogg,

            I had a lot of contact with Mormons i Sweden when I was very young. They had strict rules for many things, but they never spoke about satanic things.

            I remember on parties where people danced, they had a distance with a couple of centimeters. :-)

            /Sigvard

            2010/11/2 Beckie Child <beckie.child@...>
             

            I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have is not accurate. 

            Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic.  Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.  This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom.   Many Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate.  Having spent 27 years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were widely available.  The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol in the State.  It's been a while since I lived there or even visited there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it.  Beer is available for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states. 

            Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation is put forward as fact.

            beckie

            On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg <psychotic_dogg@...> wrote:
             

            Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it. Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.

            dogg

            Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM

            Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

             

            If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.


            Right?

            /Sigvard

            2010/11/1 dixie_dean <dixie_dean@...>
             

            Already a fact

            Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
            illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
            closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me

            TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
            revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
            business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
            Sounds good to me

            dixie
            -----

            On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <smithsurf@...>
            wrote:


            > Hi Robert.
            >  
            > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
            than
            > the illegal ones!  It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
            > assumptions!
            >  
            > Cheers for posting,
            >  
            > Mark.
             
            <Snip>




            --
            "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
            psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

            www.mhaoforegon.com




            --
            Sigvard Lingh
            Department of psychology
            Uppsala university
          • David Waldegrave Leake
            Kava is certainly available in Hawaii (some cafes and the like offer the traditional drink form for $5 for all you want), and so is betel nut (for the outer
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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              Kava is certainly available in Hawaii (some cafes and the like offer the traditional drink form for $5 for all you want), and so is betel nut (for the outer Pacific Island immigrants who still use it), although of course most American Conservatives consider Hawaii to be "foreign" and therefore not "really" a part of the USA (but the main point is valid -- these things are definitely hard to find on the US Mainland).

              BTW, the increased potency of pot doesn't necessarily mean that people are getting a lot higher (as anti-pot warriors claim), since users typically titrate their intake depending on the strength of the product and are likely to fall asleep at a decent hour (unless also drinking alcohol, which is also common).  By contrast, once alcoholics take a drink they are likely to keep on going, sometimes for days.


              DLeake

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Psycho Dogg <psychotic_dogg@...>
              To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, Nov 2, 2010 9:48 am
              Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

               
              RKS, there are several errors in your post, but the one I want to highlight is that Kava IS available in the US in capsule form.
               
              dogg


              From: Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...>
              To: Psychiatry-Research <psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 10:15:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

               
              If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.
               
              Right?
               
              /Sigvard

              RKS:
              Coffee would not require FDA approval and so would not be regulated by them (or by similar bodies in other countries.)  There is a whole range of similar drugs which are not regulated but have not been introduced to the US such as betel and kava, which Oliver Sacks said 'got him mildly stoned'.
               
              To be banned the drug must have a certain type of clientele and a certain type of distribution.  If caffeine was illegal and distributed via drug dealers then the type of caffeine taken by drug users would be strong enough to cause hallucinations and other drug effects.  Indeed, the more strongly cannabis was policed the stronger the street variety became until today it is more or less a hard drug, especially compared to the soft drug form common in the 60s and 70s.
               
              Robert
            • jeremy9282
              Beckie given your background could you shed any light on why Utha is reported to be the Antidepressant capital of the USA please. Jeremy
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                Beckie given your background could you shed any light on why Utha is reported to be the Antidepressant capital of the USA please.

                Jeremy

                http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon64.html

                Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use

                Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings

                Los Angeles Times/February 20, 2002
                By Julie Cart

                Salt Lake City -- Doctors here have for years talked about the widespread use of antidepressants in the state. But there was no hard evidence until a national study that tracked drug prescriptions came to an unexpected conclusion:

                Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average.

                Utah's high usage was cited by one of the study's authors as the most surprising finding to emerge from the data. The study was released last summer and updated in January.

                Other states with high antidepressant use were Maine and Oregon. Utah's rate of antidepressant use was twice the rate of California and nearly three times the rates in New York and New Jersey, the study showed.

                Few here question the veracity of the study, which was a tabulation of prescription orders, said Dr. Curtis Canning, president of the Utah Psychiatric Assn. But trying to understand the "why" has puzzled many, he said.

                "The one true answer is we don't know," said Canning, who has a private practice in Logan. "I have some hunches.

                "In Mormondom, there is a social expectation--particularly among the females--to put on a mask, say 'Yes' to everything that comes at her and hide the misery and pain. I call it the 'Mother of Zion' syndrome. You are supposed to be perfect because Mrs. Smith across the street can do it and she has three more kids than you and her hair is always in place. I think the cultural issue is very real. There is the expectation that you should be happy, and if you're not happy, you're failing."

                The study did not break down drug use by sex. But according to statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health, about twice as many women as men suffer from depressive disorders.

                Discussion of the issue inevitably falls along Utah's traditional fault lines. Some suggest that Utah's unique Mormon culture--70% of the state's population belongs to the church--requires perfection and the public presentation of a happy face, whatever may be happening privately. The argument goes that women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beset by particular pressures and are not encouraged to acknowledge their struggles.

                Helen Wright, 71, of Taylorsville, Utah, has been using various antidepressant drugs for 20 years and says she's never had problems getting prescriptions.

                "Look around, you can easily find people who take them. I think it's the cultural environment," said Wright, whose three grown children also take antidepressants. "Most men here would just as soon their wives take pills than bother to delve into the problems, and maybe find out they might have something to do with the problems."

                Not so, says Fred M. Riley, commissioner of LDS Family Services. The church maintains 10 offices in Utah staffed with licensed counselors. Riley said he has heard the various explanations of the study but he dismisses suggestions that the Mormon religion imposes any expectation of perfection.

                "The fact that the church has established family services shows they care about the emotional side of members," Riley said. "In fact, the LDS population is more open to getting help and getting things fixed."

                Utah's large families--the biggest in the nation according to the 2000 Census--are often cited as a contributing factor to depression, again, largely among women. Others call the "harried housewife" explanation the stuff of urban legend.

                "The question I would raise is whether there is any evidence that a high level of social demand predicts depression," said Amanda Barusch, a professor in the graduate school of social work at the University of Utah. "Who says that having six kids will make you depressed? There's no evidence in the literature that shows that. Stress is not the same as depression."

                The study was conducted by Express Scripts Inc., a St. Louis-based pharmacy benefits management company, which tracked prescriptions of 24 drug types in about 2 million people selected at random from its 48 million members. Those studied were enrolled in privately managed health-care programs, and the information gleaned from the study is intended for use by HMOs. Medicare and Medicaid recipients were not included in the study.

                Utah also leads the nation in the use of narcotic painkillers such as codeine and morphine-based drugs, the study found, and is ranked seventh in total prescriptions overall. Kentucky ranked first.

                The study was the first national survey that examined regional trends in drug use. The information in the "Prescription Atlas," as the study is called, has made little impact here since its publication.

                No official interviewed in Utah's mental health or substance abuse agencies had much notion as to what the study says about Utah's mental health.

                "To be honest with you, I don't have a clue," said Randy Bachman, director of the Utah Division of Mental Health. Bachman was not in his current job when the study was released. While the results speak for themselves, he added, interpreting why antidepressants are in high use is a thorny matter.

                State officials say the study's results could indicate that this is an enlightened society in which depression and mental illness are destigmatized. In such a social climate, they say, more people are willing to seek help and, eventually, are prescribed drugs.

                "That's certainly a plausible explanation," said Emily Cox of Express Scripts, one of the five authors of the study. "There's a lot of inferences being drawn from this. We can't say if there is a higher probability for depression or depressive symptoms. You may have a population that seeks care for less severe symptoms. You may have a medical community that prescribes more readily."

                Cindy Mann, who lives in Logan, said after 15 years of taking antidepressants and not feeling better, she finally quit in July. Today she encourages others to do likewise, but she's pessimistic.

                "It's like Happy Valley here," she said, describing the Salt Lake Valley. "It's a scary place sometimes. People don't talk about their problems. Everything is always rosy. That's how we got ourselves into this mess--we're good at ignoring things."

                 

                --- In psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com, Beckie Child <beckie.child@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon
                > in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have
                > is not accurate.
                >
                > Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic. Joseph Smith, the founder
                > of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol,
                > tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.
                > This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom. Many
                > Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate. Having spent 27
                > years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were
                > widely available. The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol
                > in the State. It's been a while since I lived there or even visited
                > there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery
                > store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it. Beer is available
                > for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent
                > of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states.
                >
                > Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation
                > is put forward as fact.
                >
                > beckie
                >
                > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg psychotic_dogg@...wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not
                > > most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it.
                > > Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of
                > > Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from
                > > God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.
                > >
                > > dogg
                > >
                > > ------------------------------
                > > *From:* Sigvard Lingh Sigvard.Lingh@...
                > > *To:* psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                > > *Sent:* Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
                > > *Subject:* Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than
                > > heroin, study claims
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.
                > >
                > > Right?
                > >
                > > /Sigvard
                > >
                > > 2010/11/1 dixie_dean dixie_dean@...
                > >
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Already a fact
                > >>
                > >> Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
                > >> illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
                > >> closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me
                > >>
                > >> TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
                > >> revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
                > >> business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
                > >> Sounds good to me
                > >>
                > >> dixie
                > >> -----
                > >>
                > >> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <
                > >> smithsurf@...
                > >> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> > Hi Robert.
                > >> >
                > >> > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
                > >> than
                > >> > the illegal ones! It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
                > >> > assumptions!
                > >> >
                > >> > Cheers for posting,
                > >> >
                > >> > Mark.
                > >>
                > >> <Snip>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                > psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
                >
                > www.mhaoforegon.com
                >

              • Beckie Child
                Utah has long been reported as leading the nation in both antidepressant use and prescription misuse/abuse. I don t go back to Utah often (mostly for funerals
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                  Utah has long been reported as leading the nation in both antidepressant use and prescription misuse/abuse. 

                  I don't go back to Utah often (mostly for funerals of family members)--but what I can tell you is that when I was 8-1/2, we moved from Ogden which was a city of about 90,000 to a farming community.  Our family was not welcomed into the community.  I remember making a decision at the precious age of 8-1/2 that I couldn't/wouldn't live in Utah for the rest of my life.  I moved back to Ogden as soon as I was out of high school and away from the community that I grew up in.  I wasn't able to leave Utah until I was 27. 

                  I do think there is pressure to be perfect--which is due in part to the church's teaching to strive for perfection.  Striving for perfection when people clearly are not currently perfect creates some interesting tensions.  When people are placed in leadership positions--there are added pressures of not only being able to live your life well--but to help others to do so. 

                  I remember conversations about being Super Mom and all of the expectations of being a woman in the church. 

                  I also think there is a lot of suppression of many things that contribute to depression.  It is much easier for someone to write a prescription and to take the prescription than it is to do a self-analysis and figure out your stuff. 

                  I was still a practicing member of the Mormon Church when I left the State. What I noticed is that it was much easier to be a practicing Mormon where Mormonism was not enculturated.  I've had several conversations with other practicing Mormons who also felt it easier to be Mormon outside of Utah. 

                  I'm very sensitive to suppression and oppression of women.  I have no doubt that those sensitivities are due to having grown up in Utah.  I also know that if I had continued living in Utah, that I would either be dead (due to suicide) or institutionalized.  Moving to Oregon was one of the best things I ever did for myself. 

                  beckie



                  On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:55 AM, jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...> wrote:
                   


                  Beckie given your background could you shed any light on why Utha is reported to be the Antidepressant capital of the USA please.

                  Jeremy

                  http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon64.html

                  Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use

                  Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings

                  Los Angeles Times/February 20, 2002
                  By Julie Cart

                  Salt Lake City -- Doctors here have for years talked about the widespread use of antidepressants in the state. But there was no hard evidence until a national study that tracked drug prescriptions came to an unexpected conclusion:

                  Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average.

                  Utah's high usage was cited by one of the study's authors as the most surprising finding to emerge from the data. The study was released last summer and updated in January.

                  Other states with high antidepressant use were Maine and Oregon. Utah's rate of antidepressant use was twice the rate of California and nearly three times the rates in New York and New Jersey, the study showed.

                  Few here question the veracity of the study, which was a tabulation of prescription orders, said Dr. Curtis Canning, president of the Utah Psychiatric Assn. But trying to understand the "why" has puzzled many, he said.

                  "The one true answer is we don't know," said Canning, who has a private practice in Logan. "I have some hunches.

                  "In Mormondom, there is a social expectation--particularly among the females--to put on a mask, say 'Yes' to everything that comes at her and hide the misery and pain. I call it the 'Mother of Zion' syndrome. You are supposed to be perfect because Mrs. Smith across the street can do it and she has three more kids than you and her hair is always in place. I think the cultural issue is very real. There is the expectation that you should be happy, and if you're not happy, you're failing."

                  The study did not break down drug use by sex. But according to statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health, about twice as many women as men suffer from depressive disorders.

                  Discussion of the issue inevitably falls along Utah's traditional fault lines. Some suggest that Utah's unique Mormon culture--70% of the state's population belongs to the church--requires perfection and the public presentation of a happy face, whatever may be happening privately. The argument goes that women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beset by particular pressures and are not encouraged to acknowledge their struggles.

                  Helen Wright, 71, of Taylorsville, Utah, has been using various antidepressant drugs for 20 years and says she's never had problems getting prescriptions.

                  "Look around, you can easily find people who take them. I think it's the cultural environment," said Wright, whose three grown children also take antidepressants. "Most men here would just as soon their wives take pills than bother to delve into the problems, and maybe find out they might have something to do with the problems."

                  Not so, says Fred M. Riley, commissioner of LDS Family Services. The church maintains 10 offices in Utah staffed with licensed counselors. Riley said he has heard the various explanations of the study but he dismisses suggestions that the Mormon religion imposes any expectation of perfection.

                  "The fact that the church has established family services shows they care about the emotional side of members," Riley said. "In fact, the LDS population is more open to getting help and getting things fixed."

                  Utah's large families--the biggest in the nation according to the 2000 Census--are often cited as a contributing factor to depression, again, largely among women. Others call the "harried housewife" explanation the stuff of urban legend.

                  "The question I would raise is whether there is any evidence that a high level of social demand predicts depression," said Amanda Barusch, a professor in the graduate school of social work at the University of Utah. "Who says that having six kids will make you depressed? There's no evidence in the literature that shows that. Stress is not the same as depression."

                  The study was conducted by Express Scripts Inc., a St. Louis-based pharmacy benefits management company, which tracked prescriptions of 24 drug types in about 2 million people selected at random from its 48 million members. Those studied were enrolled in privately managed health-care programs, and the information gleaned from the study is intended for use by HMOs. Medicare and Medicaid recipients were not included in the study.

                  Utah also leads the nation in the use of narcotic painkillers such as codeine and morphine-based drugs, the study found, and is ranked seventh in total prescriptions overall. Kentucky ranked first.

                  The study was the first national survey that examined regional trends in drug use. The information in the "Prescription Atlas," as the study is called, has made little impact here since its publication.

                  No official interviewed in Utah's mental health or substance abuse agencies had much notion as to what the study says about Utah's mental health.

                  "To be honest with you, I don't have a clue," said Randy Bachman, director of the Utah Division of Mental Health. Bachman was not in his current job when the study was released. While the results speak for themselves, he added, interpreting why antidepressants are in high use is a thorny matter.

                  State officials say the study's results could indicate that this is an enlightened society in which depression and mental illness are destigmatized. In such a social climate, they say, more people are willing to seek help and, eventually, are prescribed drugs.

                  "That's certainly a plausible explanation," said Emily Cox of Express Scripts, one of the five authors of the study. "There's a lot of inferences being drawn from this. We can't say if there is a higher probability for depression or depressive symptoms. You may have a population that seeks care for less severe symptoms. You may have a medical community that prescribes more readily."

                  Cindy Mann, who lives in Logan, said after 15 years of taking antidepressants and not feeling better, she finally quit in July. Today she encourages others to do likewise, but she's pessimistic.

                  "It's like Happy Valley here," she said, describing the Salt Lake Valley. "It's a scary place sometimes. People don't talk about their problems. Everything is always rosy. That's how we got ourselves into this mess--we're good at ignoring things."

                   

                  --- In psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com, Beckie Child <beckie.child@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon
                  > in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have
                  > is not accurate.
                  >
                  > Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic. Joseph Smith, the founder
                  > of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol,
                  > tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.
                  > This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom. Many
                  > Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate. Having spent 27
                  > years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were
                  > widely available. The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol
                  > in the State. It's been a while since I lived there or even visited
                  > there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery
                  > store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it. Beer is available
                  > for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent
                  > of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states.
                  >
                  > Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation
                  > is put forward as fact.
                  >
                  > beckie
                  >
                  > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg psychotic_dogg@...wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not
                  > > most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it.
                  > > Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of
                  > > Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from
                  > > God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.
                  > >
                  > > dogg
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > *From:* Sigvard Lingh Sigvard.Lingh@...
                  > > *To:* psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Sent:* Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
                  > > *Subject:* Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than
                  > > heroin, study claims
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.
                  > >
                  > > Right?
                  > >
                  > > /Sigvard
                  > >
                  > > 2010/11/1 dixie_dean dixie_dean@...
                  > >
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Already a fact
                  > >>
                  > >> Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
                  > >> illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
                  > >> closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me
                  > >>
                  > >> TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
                  > >> revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
                  > >> business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
                  > >> Sounds good to me
                  > >>
                  > >> dixie
                  > >> -----
                  > >>
                  > >> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <
                  > >> smithsurf@...
                  > >> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> > Hi Robert.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
                  > >> than
                  > >> > the illegal ones! It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
                  > >> > assumptions!
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Cheers for posting,
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Mark.
                  > >>
                  > >> <Snip>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                  > psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
                  >
                  > www.mhaoforegon.com
                  >




                  --
                  "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                  psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

                  www.mhaoforegon.com
                • Psycho Dogg
                  Sorry, Beckie, but you can blame my misinformation on a MORMON family, the nephew of my sister-in-law and his family, for it. They believe that caffeine IS
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                    Sorry, Beckie, but you can blame my "misinformation" on a MORMON family, the nephew of my sister-in-law and his family, for it. They believe that caffeine IS Satanic, and will not associate with anyone who consumes it. Would you like their phone number? Take your complaint to the source. I'm just the messenger.

                    dogg


                    From: Beckie Child <beckie.child@...>
                    To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 5:16:37 PM
                    Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

                     

                    I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have is not accurate. 

                    Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic.  Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.  This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom.   Many Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate.  Having spent 27 years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were widely available.  The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol in the State.  It's been a while since I lived there or even visited there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it.  Beer is available for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states. 

                    Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation is put forward as fact.

                    beckie

                    On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg <psychotic_dogg@...> wrote:
                     

                    Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it. Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.

                    dogg


                    From: Sigvard Lingh <Sigvard.Lingh@...>
                    To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims

                     

                    If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.


                    Right?

                    /Sigvard

                    2010/11/1 dixie_dean <dixie_dean@...>
                     

                    Already a fact

                    Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
                    illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
                    closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me

                    TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
                    revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
                    business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
                    Sounds good to me

                    dixie
                    -----

                    On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <smithsurf@...>
                    wrote:


                    > Hi Robert.
                    >  
                    > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
                    than
                    > the illegal ones!  It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
                    > assumptions!
                    >  
                    > Cheers for posting,
                    >  
                    > Mark.
                     
                    <Snip>




                    --
                    "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                    psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

                    www.mhaoforegon.com

                  • Manfred Stricker
                    Interesting statement by Beckie C. that it was easier to practice Mormonisme outside of Utah. Recently I have met a family of 3 generations of Jews who had
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Interesting statement by Beckie C. that it was easier to practice Mormonisme outside of Utah. Recently I have met a family of 3 generations of Jews
                      who had left Israel for Strasbourg without any old connection to France. One of them told me that in Israel they could not live as Jews. Apparently in Strasbourg, amongst goyim, they could (maybe too that social benefits in France are better than in Israel). My hypothesis is that with a clergy takes over a religion and manages it as its enterprise. This was already the case with Judaism at the times of Jesus. In my eyes Jesus finished on a cross because
                      he the business of the clergy. Jesus sais somewhere that the added new and useless burdens to the people.
                      If Beckie had continued to live in Utah, he may have finished as Spinoza at Amsterdam (where he was savec by protestants).
                      ms

                      Le 3 nov. 10 à 13:31, Beckie Child a écrit :

                      Utah has long been reported as leading the nation in both antidepressant use and prescription misuse/abuse.  

                      I don't go back to Utah often (mostly for funerals of family members)--but what I can tell you is that when I was 8-1/2, we moved from Ogden which was a city of about 90,000 to a farming community.  Our family was not welcomed into the community.  I remember making a decision at the precious age of 8-1/2 that I couldn't/wouldn't live in Utah for the rest of my life.  I moved back to Ogden as soon as I was out of high school and away from the community that I grew up in.  I wasn't able to leave Utah until I was 27.  

                      I do think there is pressure to be perfect--which is due in part to the church's teaching to strive for perfection.  Striving for perfection when people clearly are not currently perfect creates some interesting tensions.  When people are placed in leadership positions--there are added pressures of not only being able to live your life well--but to help others to do so.  

                      I remember conversations about being Super Mom and all of the expectations of being a woman in the church.  

                      I also think there is a lot of suppression of many things that contribute to depression.  It is much easier for someone to write a prescription and to take the prescription than it is to do a self-analysis and figure out your stuff.  

                      I was still a practicing member of the Mormon Church when I left the State. What I noticed is that it was much easier to be a practicing Mormon where Mormonism was not enculturated.  I've had several conversations with other practicing Mormons who also felt it easier to be Mormon outside of Utah.  

                      I'm very sensitive to suppression and oppression of women.  I have no doubt that those sensitivities are due to having grown up in Utah.  I also know that if I had continued living in Utah, that I would either be dead (due to suicide) or institutionalized.  Moving to Oregon was one of the best things I ever did for myself.  

                      beckie



                      On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:55 AM, jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...> wrote:
                       


                      Beckie given your background could you shed any light on why Utha is reported to be the Antidepressant capital of the USA please.

                      Jeremy

                      http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon64.html

                      Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use

                      Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings 

                      Los Angeles Times/February 20, 2002 
                      By Julie Cart

                      Salt Lake City -- Doctors here have for years talked about the widespread use of antidepressants in the state. But there was no hard evidence until a national study that tracked drug prescriptions came to an unexpected conclusion:

                      Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average.

                      Utah's high usage was cited by one of the study's authors as the most surprising finding to emerge from the data. The study was released last summer and updated in January.

                      Other states with high antidepressant use were Maine and Oregon. Utah's rate of antidepressant use was twice the rate of California and nearly three times the rates in New York and New Jersey, the study showed.

                      Few here question the veracity of the study, which was a tabulation of prescription orders, said Dr. Curtis Canning, president of the Utah Psychiatric Assn. But trying to understand the "why" has puzzled many, he said.

                      "The one true answer is we don't know," said Canning, who has a private practice in Logan. "I have some hunches.

                      "In Mormondom, there is a social expectation--particularly among the females--to put on a mask, say 'Yes' to everything that comes at her and hide the misery and pain. I call it the 'Mother of Zion' syndrome. You are supposed to be perfect because Mrs. Smith across the street can do it and she has three more kids than you and her hair is always in place. I think the cultural issue is very real. There is the expectation that you should be happy, and if you're not happy, you're failing."

                      The study did not break down drug use by sex. But according to statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health, about twice as many women as men suffer from depressive disorders.

                      Discussion of the issue inevitably falls along Utah's traditional fault lines. Some suggest that Utah's unique Mormon culture--70% of the state's population belongs to the church--requires perfection and the public presentation of a happy face, whatever may be happening privately. The argument goes that women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beset by particular pressures and are not encouraged to acknowledge their struggles.

                      Helen Wright, 71, of Taylorsville, Utah, has been using various antidepressant drugs for 20 years and says she's never had problems getting prescriptions.

                      "Look around, you can easily find people who take them. I think it's the cultural environment," said Wright, whose three grown children also take antidepressants. "Most men here would just as soon their wives take pills than bother to delve into the problems, and maybe find out they might have something to do with the problems."

                      Not so, says Fred M. Riley, commissioner of LDS Family Services. The church maintains 10 offices in Utah staffed with licensed counselors. Riley said he has heard the various explanations of the study but he dismisses suggestions that the Mormon religion imposes any expectation of perfection.

                      "The fact that the church has established family services shows they care about the emotional side of members," Riley said. "In fact, the LDS population is more open to getting help and getting things fixed."

                      Utah's large families--the biggest in the nation according to the 2000 Census--are often cited as a contributing factor to depression, again, largely among women. Others call the "harried housewife" explanation the stuff of urban legend.

                      "The question I would raise is whether there is any evidence that a high level of social demand predicts depression," said Amanda Barusch, a professor in the graduate school of social work at the University of Utah. "Who says that having six kids will make you depressed? There's no evidence in the literature that shows that. Stress is not the same as depression."

                      The study was conducted by Express Scripts Inc., a St. Louis-based pharmacy benefits management company, which tracked prescriptions of 24 drug types in about 2 million people selected at random from its 48 million members. Those studied were enrolled in privately managed health-care programs, and the information gleaned from the study is intended for use by HMOs. Medicare and Medicaid recipients were not included in the study.

                      Utah also leads the nation in the use of narcotic painkillers such as codeine and morphine-based drugs, the study found, and is ranked seventh in total prescriptions overall. Kentucky ranked first.

                      The study was the first national survey that examined regional trends in drug use. The information in the "Prescription Atlas," as the study is called, has made little impact here since its publication.

                      No official interviewed in Utah's mental health or substance abuse agencies had much notion as to what the study says about Utah's mental health.

                      "To be honest with you, I don't have a clue," said Randy Bachman, director of the Utah Division of Mental Health. Bachman was not in his current job when the study was released. While the results speak for themselves, he added, interpreting why antidepressants are in high use is a thorny matter.

                      State officials say the study's results could indicate that this is an enlightened society in which depression and mental illness are destigmatized. In such a social climate, they say, more people are willing to seek help and, eventually, are prescribed drugs.

                      "That's certainly a plausible explanation," said Emily Cox of Express Scripts, one of the five authors of the study. "There's a lot of inferences being drawn from this. We can't say if there is a higher probability for depression or depressive symptoms. You may have a population that seeks care for less severe symptoms. You may have a medical community that prescribes more readily."

                      Cindy Mann, who lives in Logan, said after 15 years of taking antidepressants and not feeling better, she finally quit in July. Today she encourages others to do likewise, but she's pessimistic.

                      "It's like Happy Valley here," she said, describing the Salt Lake Valley. "It's a scary place sometimes. People don't talk about their problems. Everything is always rosy. That's how we got ourselves into this mess--we're good at ignoring things."

                       

                      --- In psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com, Beckie Child <beckie.child@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm not sure where you got your information from--but having grown up Mormon
                      > in Utah but no longer practicing, I can state that the information you have
                      > is not accurate.
                      > 
                      > Mormons do not believe that caffeine is Satanic. Joseph Smith, the founder
                      > of the Mormon Church received a revelation that strong drink (alcohol,
                      > tobacco, hot drinks (coffee and caffeinated tea) were not to be consumed.
                      > This is referred to in the Mormon Church as the Word of Wisdom. Many
                      > Mormons drink Coca-Cola and Pepsi and consume chocolate. Having spent 27
                      > years living in Utah, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew were
                      > widely available. The Mormon Church has had tremendous influence on alcohol
                      > in the State. It's been a while since I lived there or even visited
                      > there--but I don't believe that you can purchase wine in a grocery
                      > store--you have to go to a liquor store to purchase it. Beer is available
                      > for purchase in most grocery stores and convenience stores--but the percent
                      > of alcohol is lower than what is found in most other neighboring states.
                      > 
                      > Whatever your belief(s) about Mormons, it doesn't help when misinformation
                      > is put forward as fact.
                      > 
                      > beckie
                      > 
                      > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Psycho Dogg psychotic_dogg@...wrote:
                      > 
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Sigvard, I don't know how many Mormons there are in Sweden, but many if not
                      > > most of them believe that caffeine is Satanic, as are those who consume it.
                      > > Until a few decades ago, Coca-Cola was not easy to obtain in the state of
                      > > Utah (the Mormon paradise), but then a church leader had a "revelation" from
                      > > God and suddenly Coke was available everywhere in the state.
                      > >
                      > > dogg
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* Sigvard Lingh Sigvard.Lingh@...
                      > > *To:* psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Sent:* Mon, November 1, 2010 12:39:26 PM
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [psychiatry-research] News: Alcohol is more dangerous than
                      > > heroin, study claims
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > If coffee was introduced first time today, it would not be accepted.
                      > >
                      > > Right?
                      > >
                      > > /Sigvard
                      > >
                      > > 2010/11/1 dixie_dean dixie_dean@...
                      > >
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Already a fact
                      > >>
                      > >> Tobacco and alcohol are far more addictive; create far more havoc than any
                      > >> illegal drug. Go by any club, pub, hospital A&E or police station at
                      > >> closing time Fri/Sat if you doubt me
                      > >>
                      > >> TV has shown it all a million times but nothing's done. Too much tax
                      > >> revenue and business profit. Some say legalise illegal drugs - then big
                      > >> business profits; so do governments; and dealer/addict crime's gone.
                      > >> Sounds good to me
                      > >>
                      > >> dixie
                      > >> -----
                      > >>
                      > >> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:05:58 +0000 (GMT), Mark Smith <
                      > >> smithsurf@...
                      > >> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> > Hi Robert.
                      > >> >
                      > >> > It would be ironic if the legal drugs are in reality more of a threat
                      > >> than
                      > >> > the illegal ones! It's early days of course, but it challenges popular
                      > >> > assumptions!
                      > >> >
                      > >> > Cheers for posting,
                      > >> >
                      > >> > Mark.
                      > >>
                      > >> <Snip>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > 
                      > >
                      > 
                      > 
                      > 
                      > -- 
                      > "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                      > psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
                      > 
                      > www.mhaoforegon.com
                      >




                      -- 
                      "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
                      psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

                      www.mhaoforegon.com


                    • Jim Goodwin
                      Jun. 06, 1995 60 minutes   Prozac is the most prescribed antidepressant drug in America. FRONTLINE travels to the prozac capital of the world, Wenatchee,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                        Hey, I thought we were it!!!
                         
                        JimG


                        --- On Wed, 11/3/10, jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...> wrote:

                        From: jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...>
                        Subject: [psychiatry-research] Re: News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims
                        To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 2:55 AM

                         

                        Beckie given your background could you shed any light on why Utha is reported to be the Antidepressant capital of the USA please.
                        Jeremy

                        Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use

                        Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings

                        Los Angeles Times/February 20, 2002
                        By Julie Cart

                        Salt Lake City -- Doctors here have for years talked about the widespread use of antidepressants in the state. But there was no hard evidence until a national study that tracked drug prescriptions came to an unexpected conclusion:
                        Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average.
                        Utah's high usage was cited by one of the study's authors as the most surprising finding to emerge from the data. The study was released last summer and updated in January.
                        Other states with high antidepressant use were Maine and Oregon. Utah's rate of antidepressant use was twice the rate of California and nearly three times the rates in New York and New Jersey, the study showed.
                        Few here question the veracity of the study, which was a tabulation of prescription orders, said Dr. Curtis Canning, president of the Utah Psychiatric Assn. But trying to understand the "why" has puzzled many, he said.
                        "The one true answer is we don't know," said Canning, who has a private practice in Logan. "I have some hunches.
                        "In Mormondom, there is a social expectation--particularly among the females--to put on a mask, say 'Yes' to everything that comes at her and hide the misery and pain. I call it the 'Mother of Zion' syndrome. You are supposed to be perfect because Mrs. Smith across the street can do it and she has three more kids than you and her hair is always in place. I think the cultural issue is very real. There is the expectation that you should be happy, and if you're not happy, you're failing."
                        The study did not break down drug use by sex. But according to statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health, about twice as many women as men suffer from depressive disorders.
                        Discussion of the issue inevitably falls along Utah's traditional fault lines. Some suggest that Utah's unique Mormon culture--70% of the state's population belongs to the church--requires perfection and the public presentation of a happy face, whatever may be happening privately. The argument goes that women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beset by particular pressures and are not encouraged to acknowledge their struggles.
                         
                        <Snip>
                      • Jim Goodwin
                        Orthodox/Fundamental/Conservative religionists no matter the faith are dangerous to anyone who perceives differently. Witness the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                          Orthodox/Fundamental/Conservative religionists no matter the faith are dangerous to anyone who perceives differently. Witness the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian (Mormon) Fundamentalists. Now Buddhists I can handle.
                           
                          JimG
                           
                          PS Although i like the idea of 72 virgins...

                          --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Manfred Stricker <orwell@...> wrote:

                          From: Manfred Stricker <orwell@...>
                          Subject: Re: [psychiatry-research] Re: News: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin, study claims
                          To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 9:41 AM

                           
                          Interesting statement by Beckie C. that it was easier to practice Mormonisme outside of Utah. Recently I have met a family of 3 generations of Jews
                          who had left Israel for Strasbourg without any old connection to France. One of them told me that in Israel they could not live as Jews. Apparently in Strasbourg, amongst goyim, they could (maybe too that social benefits in France are better than in Israel). My hypothesis is that with a clergy takes over a religion and manages it as its enterprise. This was already the case with Judaism at the times of Jesus. In my eyes Jesus finished on a cross because
                          he the business of the clergy. Jesus sais somewhere that the added new and useless burdens to the people.
                          If Beckie had continued to live in Utah, he may have finished as Spinoza at Amsterdam (where he was savec by protestants).
                          ms

                          Le 3 nov. 10 ?3:31, Beckie Child a ?it :

                          Utah has long been reported as leading the nation in both antidepressant use and prescription misuse/abuse.  

                          I don't go back to Utah often (mostly for funerals of family members)--but what I can tell you is that when I was 8-1/2, we moved from Ogden which was a city of about 90,000 to a farming community.  Our family was not welcomed into the community.  I remember making a decision at the precious age of 8-1/2 that I couldn't/wouldn't live in Utah for the rest of my life.  I moved back to Ogden as soon as I was out of high school and away from the community that I grew up in.  I wasn't able to leave Utah until I was 27.  

                          I do think there is pressure to be perfect--which is due in part to the church's teaching to strive for perfection.  Striving for perfection when people clearly are not currently perfect creates some interesting tensions.  When people are placed in leadership positions--there are added pressures of not only being able to live your life well--but to help others to do so.  

                          I remember conversations about being Super Mom and all of the expectations of being a woman in the church.  

                          I also think there is a lot of suppression of many things that contribute to depression.  It is much easier for someone to write a prescription and to take the prescription than it is to do a self-analysis and figure out your stuff.  

                          I was still a practicing member of the Mormon Church when I left the State. What I noticed is that it was much easier to be a practicing Mormon where Mormonism was not enculturated.  I've had several conversations with other practicing Mormons who also felt it easier to be Mormon outside of Utah.  

                          I'm very sensitive to suppression and oppression of women.  I have no doubt that those sensitivities are due to having grown up in Utah.  I also know that if I had continued living in Utah, that I would either be dead (due to suicide) or institutionalized.  Moving to Oregon was one of the best things I ever did for myself.  

                          beckie



                          On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:55 AM, jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...> wrote:
                           
                          <Snip>
                        • Sigvard Lingh
                          Perhaps Jesus - as he refused to use his popularity among many jews (read zealots) to fight the Romans - was tricked to be a martyr. Like Samson he was of more
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 3, 2010
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                            Perhaps Jesus - as he refused to use his popularity among many jews (read zealots) to fight the Romans - was tricked to be a martyr.

                            Like Samson he was of more use dead.

                            /Sigvard

                            2010/11/3 Manfred Stricker <orwell@...>
                             

                            Interesting statement by Beckie C. that it was easier to practice Mormonisme outside of Utah. Recently I have met a family of 3 generations of Jews

                            who had left Israel for Strasbourg without any old connection to France. One of them told me that in Israel they could not live as Jews. Apparently in Strasbourg, amongst goyim, they could (maybe too that social benefits in France are better than in Israel). My hypothesis is that with a clergy takes over a religion and manages it as its enterprise. This was already the case with Judaism at the times of Jesus. In my eyes Jesus finished on a cross because
                            he the business of the clergy. Jesus sais somewhere that the added new and useless burdens to the people.
                            If Beckie had continued to live in Utah, he may have finished as Spinoza at Amsterdam (where he was savec by protestants).
                            ms

                            Le 3 nov. 10 à 13:31, Beckie Child a écrit :

                            Utah has long been reported as leading the nation in both antidepressant use and prescription misuse/abuse.  

                            I don't go back to Utah often (mostly for funerals of family members)--but what I can tell you is that when I was 8-1/2, we moved from Ogden which was a city of about 90,000 to a farming community.  Our family was not welcomed into the community.  I remember making a decision at the precious age of 8-1/2 that I couldn't/wouldn't live in Utah for the rest of my life.  I moved back to Ogden as soon as I was out of high school and away from the community that I grew up in.  I wasn't able to leave Utah until I was 27.  

                            I do think there is pressure to be perfect--which is due in part to the church's teaching to strive for perfection.  Striving for perfection when people clearly are not currently perfect creates some interesting tensions.  When people are placed in leadership positions--there are added pressures of not only being able to live your life well--but to help others to do so.  

                            I remember conversations about being Super Mom and all of the expectations of being a woman in the church.  

                            I also think there is a lot of suppression of many things that contribute to depression.  It is much easier for someone to write a prescription and to take the prescription than it is to do a self-analysis and figure out your stuff.  

                            I was still a practicing member of the Mormon Church when I left the State. What I noticed is that it was much easier to be a practicing Mormon where Mormonism was not enculturated.  I've had several conversations with other practicing Mormons who also felt it easier to be Mormon outside of Utah.  

                            I'm very sensitive to suppression and oppression of women.  I have no doubt that those sensitivities are due to having grown up in Utah.  I also know that if I had continued living in Utah, that I would either be dead (due to suicide) or institutionalized.  Moving to Oregon was one of the best things I ever did for myself.  

                            beckie

                            <Snip>
                          • jeremy9282
                            blast from the past Aug 1994 ... FRONTLINE travels to the prozac capital of the world, Wenatchee, Washington, and talks to the Pied Piper of Prozac, Dr. Jim
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 4, 2010
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                              blast from the past Aug 1994

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               


                              --- In psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com, Jim Goodwin <moaabsux@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Jun. 06, 1995
                              > 60 minutes
                              >  
                              > Prozac is the most prescribed antidepressant drug in America. FRONTLINE travels to the prozac capital of the world, Wenatchee, Washington, and talks to the 'Pied Piper of Prozac,' Dr. Jim Goodwin, a clinical psychologist who says Prozac is 'probably less toxic than salt' and has had it prescribed for all his seven hundred patients. Psychiatrist Peter Breggin and members of the Prozac Survivors Support Group, however, question the use of the drug.

                            • Jim Goodwin
                              Yeah, Prozac (& Goodwin)  was neither poison nor panacea; Prozac just a really fine medical tool when used properly (NO/NONE/NADA concurrent
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 4, 2010
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                                Yeah, Prozac (& Goodwin)  was neither poison nor panacea; Prozac just a really fine medical tool when used properly (NO/NONE/NADA concurrent depressants-PERIOD!!!).
                                 
                                JimG

                                --- On Thu, 11/4/10, jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...> wrote:

                                From: jeremy9282 <jeremybryce1953@...>
                                Subject: [psychiatry-research] Breggin - Goodwin, Welcome to Happy Valley - BMJ
                                To: psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 2:42 AM

                                 
                                blast from the past Aug 1994
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 

                                --- In psychiatry-research@yahoogroups.com, Jim Goodwin <moaabsux@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Jun. 06, 1995
                                > 60 minutes
                                >  
                                > Prozac is the most prescribed antidepressant drug in America. FRONTLINE travels to the prozac capital of the world, Wenatchee, Washington, and talks to the 'Pied Piper of Prozac,' Dr. Jim Goodwin, a clinical psychologist who says Prozac is 'probably less toxic than salt' and has had it prescribed for all his seven hundred patients. Psychiatrist Peter Breggin and members of the Prozac Survivors Support Group, however, question the use of the drug.

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