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PA Mtns - Wikipedia misinformation

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  • wererichertoo
    Hi all: Over Labor Day weekend my wife, daughter, and I visited Blue Knob, PA where I bagged the Bedford cohp, Blair cohp (Schaefer Head), and the 3 points for
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 3 5:10 PM
      Hi all:

      Over Labor Day weekend my wife, daughter, and I visited Blue Knob,
      PA where I bagged the Bedford cohp, Blair cohp (Schaefer Head), and
      the 3 points for Cambria co.

      Schaefer Head (elev 2950') has 602' of prominence based on the spot
      elevation in the saddle. The northern pt for Cambria co (2862') has
      262' of clean prominence, and the higher of the 2 southern pts likely
      has 160' of clean prominence. I don't know the prominence of Blue
      Knob (according to state park, elevation is 3146'). I have heard that
      somebody actually has worked PA (Aaron, Roy?) down to 300 feet. I
      would like to see that list since I live very close to PA now.

      It would also be nice to post the PA list on peaklist or peakbagger,
      and not just the PA1000 map, because there has been a problem with
      misinformation. Somebody was editing the Wikipedia entries on Blue
      Knob, Schaefer Head, and Wills Mountain (and maybe others) and posting
      ridiculously high prominence values for them. As of Wed. night the
      entry for Wills Mtn claims that it might have the greatest prominence
      in PA (comments, Edward?) So it would be nice if there is an
      authoritative source so misguided individuals don't post nonsense there.

      Ryan
    • Roy Schweiker
      ... Nor do I ... I can t say for sure what Aaron has done, he was very close to posting New England at Xmas but apparently got bogged down and hasn t done it
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 3 6:01 PM
        > I don't know the prominence of Blue
        >Knob (according to state park, elevation is 3146').

        Nor do I

        > I have heard that
        >somebody actually has worked PA (Aaron, Roy?) down to 300 feet. I
        >would like to see that list since I live very close to PA now.

        I can't say for sure what Aaron has done, he was very close to posting
        New England at Xmas but apparently got bogged down and hasn't done it
        yet. I made the list for the PA 1k map but it was error-prone and I've
        found at least one more. I won't do any lower in PA - no access to
        appropriate maps around here.

        >It would also be nice to post the PA list on peaklist or peakbagger,
        >and not just the PA1000 map, because there has been a problem with
        >misinformation.

        I consider the list I have to be "misinformation" until independently
        checked, perhaps you'd like to do that

        > Somebody was editing the Wikipedia entries on Blue
        >Knob, Schaefer Head, and Wills Mountain (and maybe others) and posting
        >ridiculously high prominence values for them.

        I suppose you can complain to the editors

        >As of Wed. night the
        >entry for Wills Mtn claims that it might have the greatest prominence
        >in PA (comments, Edward?)

        It might, if it had the greatest possible and the 2 above it had the
        least, but not very likely

        -rs

        ____________________________________________________________
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      • Andy Martin
        (Ryan) ... (Andy) Roy s preliminary 1K list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prominence/message/2480 Jerry Brekhus came up with a prominence for Blue Knob
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 3 8:05 PM
          (Ryan)
          > I don't know the prominence of Blue
          > Knob (according to state park, elevation is 3146'). I have heard that
          > somebody actually has worked PA (Aaron, Roy?) down to 300 feet. I
          > would like to see that list since I live very close to PA now.

          (Andy)
          Roy's preliminary 1K list is at
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prominence/message/2480

          Jerry Brekhus came up with a prominence for Blue Knob
          of 780 feet:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prominence/message/4010
          PA Blue Knob 3120 780 prominence

          I drove up this peak in June, and also wanted to get
          a prominence number for it. Can confirm that it is
          at least 780 feet, but did not take the time to
          double check the long ridge leading away from the
          2340' probable key saddle.
          I'll just trust Jerry here.
        • Edward "7.389056099" Earl
          ... Wills Mtn is in fact a contender for the PA state prom champ; I verified this on Winprom. However, the probability that it actually does take the state
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 4 2:49 PM
            > As of Wed. night the
            > entry for Wills Mtn claims that it might have the greatest prominence
            > in PA (comments, Edward?) So it would be nice if there is an
            > authoritative source so misguided individuals don't post nonsense there.
            >
            Wills Mtn is in fact a contender for the PA state prom champ; I verified this on
            Winprom. However, the probability that it actually does take the state prom is
            very low. The 2780' contour on the summit is very small:
            http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.8456,-78.6817&z=15
            and is probably very close to the lower limit unless it's a rock pile. The data
            sheet for the Hyndman BM might show its exact elevation (Richard?)
            Due to the relative distance between contours at the saddle,
            http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.9398,-78.6516&z=16
            it is probably very close to the upper limit of its contour interval. A BM lies
            ¾ mile SW and it would not be difficult to survey the exact saddle elevation
            from the BM in a manner similar to what Richard and I have done.

            Although the probability that Wills Mtn is the most prominent in PA is very low,
            it cannot be ruled out.


            Edward "7.389056099" Earl
            esquared@...
            http://home.earthlink.net/~esquared
          • Andy Martin
            (Edward) ... (Andy) I did not find this BM at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl ... I worked the prominence up for Wills a few years ago, and made
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 4 5:52 PM
              (Edward)
              > Wills Mtn is in fact a contender for the PA state prom champ; I verified this on
              > Winprom. However, the probability that it actually does take the state prom is
              > very low. The 2780' contour on the summit is very small:
              > http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.8456,-78.6817&z=15
              > and is probably very close to the lower limit unless it's a rock pile. The data
              > sheet for the Hyndman BM might show its exact elevation (Richard?)

              (Andy)
              I did not find this BM at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl

              > Due to the relative distance between contours at the saddle,
              > http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.9398,-78.6516&z=16
              > it is probably very close to the upper limit of its contour interval. A BM lies
              > ¾ mile SW and it would not be difficult to survey the exact saddle elevation
              > from the BM in a manner similar to what Richard and I have done.
              >
              > Although the probability that Wills Mtn is the most prominent in PA is very low,
              > it cannot be ruled out.

              I worked the prominence up for Wills a few years ago,
              and made an assumption about the key saddle - that
              it is lowered by a Railroad Cut:

              http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.93974,-78.65168&z=17&t=T

              and that the natural saddle was over 1360 feet
              before the RR was built.

              As a compromise, I just used 1360 feet for the
              saddle, this gave prominence of 2780 (+20) - 1360
              = 1420 +20, which must be a bit less than 1440+ for
              Shade Mountain.

              Looking at the Acme view in Satellite View, it
              seems the RR line no longer runs through
              the saddle.

              In any case, if we go with natural saddles I think
              we can rule Wills out.

              If we go with the contours and allow the RR cut,
              it would appear the best Wills could do is
              2790 - 1350 = 1440, once again not quite good
              enough.

              Hikers that want to cover all the bases can of course
              hike Shade Mountain, Big Mountain, and Wills ...
            • wererichertoo
              ... Since I have always supported using real world saddles instead of some now non-existent natural saddle, it looks like I will have to hike Wills
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 6 11:02 AM
                <Andy>
                > In any case, if we go with natural saddles I think
                > we can rule Wills out.
                >
                > If we go with the contours and allow the RR cut,
                > it would appear the best Wills could do is
                > 2790 - 1350 = 1440, once again not quite good
                > enough.
                >
                > Hikers that want to cover all the bases can of course
                > hike Shade Mountain, Big Mountain, and Wills ...


                Since I have always supported using real world saddles instead of some
                now non-existent "natural" saddle, it looks like I will have to hike
                Wills Mtn to claim the greatest PA prominence. No big deal, it's only
                2 hrs from DC, plus I can bag the P1k prominence on Martin Hill/Evitts
                Mtn on the same trip.

                I'm just hoping that the massive rains that DC is getting right now
                from TS Hanna won't wash out the access roads...
              • Aaron Maizlish
                Hello All, I have worked Pennsylvania down to P300. The information is complete (could use some proofing) on four Topo! files. I have not had time, nor will
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 10 11:49 PM
                  Hello All,

                  I have worked Pennsylvania down to P300. The information is complete
                  (could use some proofing) on four Topo! files. I have not had time,
                  nor will I have time anytime soon, to export it to excel, clean it
                  up, and format it into a nice list. If anyone has Topo! and wants
                  the information please contact me. I suppose you don't need to have
                  the Pennsylvania state Topo! to read the information.

                  Aaron


                  On Sep 3, 2008, at 5:10 PM, wererichertoo wrote:
                  > Hi all:
                  >
                  > Over Labor Day weekend my wife, daughter, and I visited Blue Knob,
                  > PA where I bagged the Bedford cohp, Blair cohp (Schaefer Head), and
                  > the 3 points for Cambria co.
                  >
                  > Schaefer Head (elev 2950') has 602' of prominence based on the spot
                  > elevation in the saddle. The northern pt for Cambria co (2862') has
                  > 262' of clean prominence, and the higher of the 2 southern pts likely
                  > has 160' of clean prominence. I don't know the prominence of Blue
                  > Knob (according to state park, elevation is 3146'). I have heard that
                  > somebody actually has worked PA (Aaron, Roy?) down to 300 feet. I
                  > would like to see that list since I live very close to PA now.
                  >
                  > It would also be nice to post the PA list on peaklist or peakbagger,
                  > and not just the PA1000 map, because there has been a problem with
                  > misinformation. Somebody was editing the Wikipedia entries on Blue
                  > Knob, Schaefer Head, and Wills Mountain (and maybe others) and posting
                  > ridiculously high prominence values for them. As of Wed. night the
                  > entry for Wills Mtn claims that it might have the greatest prominence
                  > in PA (comments, Edward?) So it would be nice if there is an
                  > authoritative source so misguided individuals don't post nonsense
                  > there.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • wererichertoo
                  ... verified this on Winprom. However, the probability that it actually does take the state prom is very low. The 2780 contour on the summit is very small:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 21, 2008
                    --- In prominence@yahoogroups.com, Andy Martin <oldadit@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > (Edward)
                    > > Wills Mtn is in fact a contender for the PA state prom champ; I
                    verified this on Winprom. However, the probability that it actually
                    does take the state prom is very low. The 2780' contour on the summit
                    is very small: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.8456,-78.6817&z=15
                    > > and is probably very close to the lower limit unless it's a rock
                    pile. The data sheet for the Hyndman BM might show its exact elevation
                    (Richard?)
                    >

                    Along the lines of the Chimborazo vs. Huascaran debate and the Pico
                    Colon vs. Pico Bolivar (Colombia) debate, we have the age-old debate
                    of what is the Pennsylvania state prominence point :-)

                    I visited Wills Mtn on Dec 20. Deer season is over but the gates were
                    still open to within about 2 miles of the summit. On the way there I
                    searched for BM 1924 and BM 2609 (very near where the road ends) so I
                    could calibrate my Garmin GPS+altimeter, but no luck. BM 1924 is
                    apparently underneath a small parking area along the road, and BM 2609
                    is covered with fallen trees, so I couldn't find either. There was
                    minimal snow on the ground.

                    Upon arriving at the summit area, I used my GPS to walk where the 2780
                    contour is supposed to be. As noted before, the contour is very
                    small, and I don't think there could even be 10 feet of gain, probably
                    much less. Since Wills would have to be 2799' or so to really contend
                    for the PA prominence point, I think we can safely rule it out,
                    whether you accept the natural or the man-made saddle.

                    It is too bad, since Wills is the highest of the 3 contenders and
                    feels like a mountain; unlike Shade Mtn, which at 2180'+ feels like a
                    hill.

                    I also took the opportunity to visit Martin Hill (inter prom 1405',
                    elevation 2775'), probably the 4th largest prominence in PA. I
                    started at the Blankley Picnic Area (apparently the dirt road is open
                    year round, though not plowed) and hiked the Cabin Trail to the
                    ridgeline, then took a forest road to the summit. Easy hike.

                    -Ryan




                    --- In prominence@yahoogroups.com, Andy Martin <oldadit@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > (Edward)
                    > > Wills Mtn is in fact a contender for the PA state prom champ; I
                    verified this on
                    > > Winprom. However, the probability that it actually does take the
                    state prom is
                    > > very low. The 2780' contour on the summit is very small:
                    > > http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.8456,-78.6817&z=15
                    > > and is probably very close to the lower limit unless it's a rock
                    pile. The data
                    > > sheet for the Hyndman BM might show its exact elevation (Richard?)
                    >
                    > (Andy)
                    > I did not find this BM at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl
                    >
                    > > Due to the relative distance between contours at the saddle,
                    > > http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.9398,-78.6516&z=16
                    > > it is probably very close to the upper limit of its contour
                    interval. A BM lies
                    > > ¾ mile SW and it would not be difficult to survey the exact saddle
                    elevation
                    > > from the BM in a manner similar to what Richard and I have done.
                    > >
                    > > Although the probability that Wills Mtn is the most prominent in
                    PA is very low,
                    > > it cannot be ruled out.
                    >
                    > I worked the prominence up for Wills a few years ago,
                    > and made an assumption about the key saddle - that
                    > it is lowered by a Railroad Cut:
                    >
                    > http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=39.93974,-78.65168&z=17&t=T
                    >
                    > and that the natural saddle was over 1360 feet
                    > before the RR was built.
                    >
                    > As a compromise, I just used 1360 feet for the
                    > saddle, this gave prominence of 2780 (+20) - 1360
                    > = 1420 +20, which must be a bit less than 1440+ for
                    > Shade Mountain.
                    >
                    > Looking at the Acme view in Satellite View, it
                    > seems the RR line no longer runs through
                    > the saddle.
                    >
                    > In any case, if we go with natural saddles I think
                    > we can rule Wills out.
                    >
                    > If we go with the contours and allow the RR cut,
                    > it would appear the best Wills could do is
                    > 2790 - 1350 = 1440, once again not quite good
                    > enough.
                    >
                    > Hikers that want to cover all the bases can of course
                    > hike Shade Mountain, Big Mountain, and Wills ...
                    >
                  • Edward "7.389056099" Earl
                    ... Good work. The only thing it would take to totally rule out Wills Mtn for state prom in my mind is to be sure that the summit is not a rock pile. Ryan s
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 21, 2008
                      > Upon arriving at the summit area, I used my GPS to walk where the
                      > 2780 contour is supposed to be. As noted before, the contour is very
                      > small, and I don't think there could even be 10 feet of gain, probably
                      > much less. Since Wills would have to be 2799' or so to really contend
                      > for the PA prominence point, I think we can safely rule it out,
                      > whether you accept the natural or the man-made saddle.
                      >
                      > It is too bad, since Wills is the highest of the 3 contenders and
                      > feels like a mountain; unlike Shade Mtn, which at 2180'+ feels like
                      > a hill.

                      Good work. The only thing it would take to totally rule out Wills Mtn for state
                      prom in my mind is to be sure that the summit is not a rock pile. Ryan's visit
                      is certainly good enough for that. I have made the change in my state prom page
                      http://home.earthlink.net/~esquared/outdoor/county_prom/state_prom.htm and
                      uploaded it.


                      Edward "7.389056099" Earl
                      esquared@...
                      http://home.earthlink.net/~esquared
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