Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Cats, names and Bradbury

Expand Messages
  • Geoff Willmetts
    Hello Dino Gads. You’re right. Shows how long ago I saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM You’re
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 13, 2011
      Hello
      Dino



      Gads. You�re right. Shows how long ago I
      saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM




      You�re quite right about the cat�s absence
      in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



      Hello
      John



      You could have been named after Miss Welch�s
      father.



      Hello
      Martha and David



      Bradbury has never seen himself as a
      Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It�s the media whose never got
      the labeling right.



      Geoff



      ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
      Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
      THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
      Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


      WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

      AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

      ***************************************************


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Marks
      Agreed.  Bradbury is recognized as fantasy. Part of it was that he is not a member of the Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement, and many others.  
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 14, 2011
        Agreed.  Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.
        Part of it was that he is not a member of the
        Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,
        and many others.
         
        As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science
        fantasy.
         
             David in MA

        --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:


        From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
        Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
        To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM





        Hello
        Dino



              Gads. You’re right. Shows how long ago I
        saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM




              You’re quite right about the cat’s absence
        in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



        Hello
        John



              You could have been named after Miss Welch’s
        father.



        Hello
        Martha and David



              Bradbury has never seen himself as a
        Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It’s the media whose never got
        the labeling right.



        Geoff



        ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
        Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
        THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
        Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


        WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

        AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

        ***************************************************
                                 

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Geoff Willmetts
        Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy. The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality has to remain
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 14, 2011
          Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy. The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there. If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy. Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff

          ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
          Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
          THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
          Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


          WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

          AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

          ***************************************************

          To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
          From: worldsecanalyst@...
          Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700
          Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury




























          Agreed. Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.

          Part of it was that he is not a member of the

          Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,

          and many others.



          As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science

          fantasy.



          David in MA



          --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



          From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

          Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

          To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

          Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM



          Hello

          Dino



          Gads. You�re right. Shows how long ago I

          saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM



          You�re quite right about the cat�s absence

          in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



          Hello

          John



          You could have been named after Miss Welch�s

          father.



          Hello

          Martha and David



          Bradbury has never seen himself as a

          Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It�s the media whose never got

          the labeling right.



          Geoff



          ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

          Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

          THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER

          Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



          WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



          AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



          ***************************************************





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------



          Yahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Marks
          Geoff,   My understanding of science fiction is that the story and plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is theoretical and extrapolated. 
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 15, 2011
            Geoff,
             
            My understanding of science fiction is that the story and
            plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is
            theoretical and extrapolated.  This is sufficient to suspend
            disbelief.
             
            Science fantasy has certain scientific elements in play but other
            elements are disregarded to advance the story.  The scientific
            elements should be established up front in the story.  An
            example of science fantasy on TV goes is "Land of the Giants". 
            Such a planet on which the "Spindrift" crashed on cannot exist. 
            There are too many violations in physics and biology to allow
            it to happen.
             
            Ray Bradbury contrived a Mars based on the astronomy of
            Percival Lowell.  Astronmers quickly took Lowell to task on
            his findings despite that he had good equipment.  Lowell
            believed too much.  As Mars studies progressed after
            Lowell, it was becoming clear to the scientific community
            that Mars was proving to be very inhospitable by terrestrial
            standards.  Bradbury either disregarded or was not informed
            about the Martian environment.  He was intent on producing
            stories.
             
                 David in MA

             

            --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:


            From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
            Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
            To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:31 PM



            Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy. The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there. If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy. Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff

            ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
            Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
            THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
            Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


            WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

            AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

            ***************************************************

            To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
            From: worldsecanalyst@...
            Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700
            Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury






















             


               
                 
                 
                  Agreed.  Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.

            Part of it was that he is not a member of the

            Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,

            and many others.



            As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science

            fantasy.



                 David in MA



            --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



            From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

            Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

            To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

            Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM



            Hello

            Dino



                  Gads. You’re right. Shows how long ago I

            saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM



                  You’re quite right about the cat’s absence

            in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



            Hello

            John



                  You could have been named after Miss Welch’s

            father.



            Hello

            Martha and David



                  Bradbury has never seen himself as a

            Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It’s the media whose never got

            the labeling right.



            Geoff



            ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

            Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

            THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER

            Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



            WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



            AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



            ***************************************************

                                     



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------



            Yahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





               
                 

               
               






                                        

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Geoff Willmetts
            Hello David Forgive the line bunching last and hopefully not this time. Doesn’t happen with all emails so might just be a filter thing. Anyone got any ideas
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 16, 2011
              Hello
              David



              Forgive the line bunching last and
              hopefully not this time. Doesn�t happen with all emails so might just be a
              filter thing. Anyone got any ideas on any format changes?? Doing this on from a
              copy and paste from Word.



              Re: definitions. I think any genre can
              play fast and loose with reality, even if it�s not keeping the time frame in
              front of the reader.



              Science Fiction specifically plays more
              with the science although strictly speaking, this is more applied science in
              technology changes and has the freedom to explore the future.



              Re: Land Of The Giants. Specifically, they
              ignored the Inverse Square Law, where weight goes up in proportion to size.
              Then again, with that series, you can�t really be sure if they are actually on
              a giant world or they�ve been shrunk and on a normal sized world.



              Re: Bradbury�s Martian Chronicles. Even as
              far back as the early 1960s, there was still thoughts around that the rest of
              the Solar System was inhabited. I suspect Bradbury was more influenced by Wells
              and Burroughs than Lowell though. You want an alien planet but not travel too
              far, then Mars isn�t a bad choice.



              Geoff



              ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
              Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
              THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
              Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


              WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

              AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

              ***************************************************

              To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
              From: worldsecanalyst@...
              Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:33:58 -0700
              Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury




























              Geoff,



              My understanding of science fiction is that the story and

              plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is

              theoretical and extrapolated. This is sufficient to suspend

              disbelief.



              Science fantasy has certain scientific elements in play but other

              elements are disregarded to advance the story. The scientific

              elements should be established up front in the story. An

              example of science fantasy on TV goes is "Land of the Giants".

              Such a planet on which the "Spindrift" crashed on cannot exist.

              There are too many violations in physics and biology to allow

              it to happen.



              Ray Bradbury contrived a Mars based on the astronomy of

              Percival Lowell. Astronmers quickly took Lowell to task on

              his findings despite that he had good equipment. Lowell

              believed too much. As Mars studies progressed after

              Lowell, it was becoming clear to the scientific community

              that Mars was proving to be very inhospitable by terrestrial

              standards. Bradbury either disregarded or was not informed

              about the Martian environment. He was intent on producing

              stories.



              David in MA







              --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



              From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

              Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

              To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

              Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:31 PM



              Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy. The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there. If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy. Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff



              ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

              Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

              THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER

              Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



              WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



              AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



              ***************************************************



              To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

              From: worldsecanalyst@...

              Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700

              Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury













              Agreed. Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.



              Part of it was that he is not a member of the



              Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,



              and many others.



              As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science



              fantasy.



              David in MA



              --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



              From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>



              Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury



              To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>



              Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM



              Hello



              Dino



              Gads. You�re right. Shows how long ago I



              saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM



              You�re quite right about the cat�s absence



              in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



              Hello



              John



              You could have been named after Miss Welch�s



              father.



              Hello



              Martha and David



              Bradbury has never seen himself as a



              Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It�s the media whose never got



              the labeling right.



              Geoff



              ********* GF Willmetts ****************************



              Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk



              THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER



              Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



              WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



              AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



              ***************************************************







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------



              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------



              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Marks
              Hello Geoff,   No apology needed.  Your posting was readable.  I have latched on to a fun thread for discussion.   Technology makes the story more
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 16, 2011
                Hello Geoff,
                 
                No apology needed.  Your posting was readable.  I have
                latched on to a fun thread for discussion.
                 
                Technology makes the story more plausible.  However, even
                if the technology is weak or non-existent, theory can make
                it workable for science fiction.
                 
                With respect to "Land of the Giants," you must be refering
                to Newton's Law of Gravitation (not to be confused with his
                three laws of motion).  Gravitation is a function of mass.  As
                a planet with high gravity, living beings would be very squat.
                If it were an earth-mass planet with far greater surface area
                (a low density planet), this is workable, maybe.  It really isn't
                needed.  Nature should favor beings of comparable size.
                 
                Percival Lowell did not necessarily influence Bradbury as
                he had Wells and Burroughs.  It was enough to capture to
                capture the popular imagination.  It persisted into the 60s.
                Nonetheless, there was enough coming from scientific
                circles to provide a realistic portrait of Mars.  One notable
                source was a popular documentary done by Disney and
                Werner von Braun about Mars, a flight, and exploration.
                The portrait of Mars was realistic.  A hospitable Mars
                endured regardless.
                 
                Mars captivates us due to many similarites to Earth:
                the twenty four hour day (sol), seasonality, and discernable
                surface features such as canyons and mountains.  I would
                love to see a manned mission on Mars before 2025.  We
                should have been there before 1990.
                 
                     David in MA
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 

                --- On Sun, 10/16/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:


                From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
                Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 5:14 AM





                Hello
                David



                      Forgive the line bunching last and
                hopefully not this time. Doesn’t happen with all emails so might just be a
                filter thing. Anyone got any ideas on any format changes?? Doing this on from a
                copy and paste from Word.



                      Re: definitions. I think any genre can
                play fast and loose with reality, even if it’s not keeping the time frame in
                front of the reader.



                      Science Fiction specifically plays more
                with the science although strictly speaking, this is more applied science in
                technology changes and has the freedom to explore the future.



                      Re: Land Of The Giants. Specifically, they
                ignored the Inverse Square Law, where weight goes up in proportion to size.
                Then again, with that series, you can’t really be sure if they are actually on
                a giant world or they’ve been shrunk and on a normal sized world.



                      Re: Bradbury’s Martian Chronicles. Even as
                far back as the early 1960s, there was still thoughts around that the rest of
                the Solar System was inhabited. I suspect Bradbury was more influenced by Wells
                and Burroughs than Lowell though. You want an alien planet but not travel too
                far, then Mars isn’t a bad choice.



                Geoff



                ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
                Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
                THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
                Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


                WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

                AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

                ***************************************************

                To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                From: worldsecanalyst@...
                Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:33:58 -0700
                Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury






















                 


                   
                     
                     
                      Geoff,



                My understanding of science fiction is that the story and

                plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is

                theoretical and extrapolated.  This is sufficient to suspend

                disbelief.



                Science fantasy has certain scientific elements in play but other

                elements are disregarded to advance the story.  The scientific

                elements should be established up front in the story.  An

                example of science fantasy on TV goes is "Land of the Giants". 

                Such a planet on which the "Spindrift" crashed on cannot exist. 

                There are too many violations in physics and biology to allow

                it to happen.



                Ray Bradbury contrived a Mars based on the astronomy of

                Percival Lowell.  Astronmers quickly took Lowell to task on

                his findings despite that he had good equipment.  Lowell

                believed too much.  As Mars studies progressed after

                Lowell, it was becoming clear to the scientific community

                that Mars was proving to be very inhospitable by terrestrial

                standards.  Bradbury either disregarded or was not informed

                about the Martian environment.  He was intent on producing

                stories.



                     David in MA







                --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



                From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

                Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

                Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:31 PM



                Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy. The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there. If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy. Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff



                ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

                Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

                THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER

                Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



                WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



                AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



                ***************************************************



                To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

                From: worldsecanalyst@...

                Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700

                Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury



                 



                   

                     

                     

                      Agreed.  Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.



                Part of it was that he is not a member of the



                Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,



                and many others.



                As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science



                fantasy.



                     David in MA



                --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:



                From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>



                Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury



                To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>



                Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM



                Hello



                Dino



                      Gads. You’re right. Shows how long ago I



                saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-



                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM



                      You’re quite right about the cat’s absence



                in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.



                Hello



                John



                      You could have been named after Miss Welch’s



                father.



                Hello



                Martha and David



                      Bradbury has never seen himself as a



                Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It’s the media whose never got



                the labeling right.



                Geoff



                ********* GF Willmetts ****************************



                Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk



                THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER



                Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!



                WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-



                AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/



                ***************************************************



                                         



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------



                Yahoo! Groups Links



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                   

                     



                   

                   



                                             



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------



                Yahoo! Groups Links



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                   
                     

                   
                   






                                            

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert McNay
                Since I started reading SF as a kid, it s always been broken up into 2 classes, science fiction and space pera. I ve never run into science fantasy before.
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 16, 2011
                  Since I started reading SF as a kid, it's always been broken up into 2 classes, science fiction and space pera. I've never run into "science fantasy" before. Science fiction was always typified by its harder edge and attempt to at least remain in the same ballpark as known fact and current accepted theory. Space opera created a story that was regardless of science in most any way, shape or form. Fantasy, in my experience, has been relegated to wizards, dragons, hobbits and friendly, powerful lions. :-)

                  The way I break them down, in media I'm familiar with:

                  Science fiction: Star Trek, 2001, Silent Running, Contact, Outland, Alien

                  Space Opera: Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica (with MAJOR nod to the original series), Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Martian Chronicles, VttBotS

                  There's a few that fall somewhere in between, a lot of plausible tech and theory but in an science defying overall framework, like SPACE:1999.

                  Personally, I enjoy both completely and equally, for watching, reading or playing (as in RPGs like Traveller and Space:1889).

                  Rob McNay
                  Chicago IL

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:probe_control@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marks
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:04 AM
                  > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Geoff,
                  >
                  > No apology needed. Your posting was readable. I have
                  > latched on to a fun thread for discussion.
                  >
                  > Technology makes the story more plausible. However, even
                  > if the technology is weak or non-existent, theory can make
                  > it workable for science fiction.
                  >
                  > With respect to "Land of the Giants," you must be refering
                  > to Newton's Law of Gravitation (not to be confused with his
                  > three laws of motion). Gravitation is a function of mass. As
                  > a planet with high gravity, living beings would be very squat.
                  > If it were an earth-mass planet with far greater surface area
                  > (a low density planet), this is workable, maybe. It really isn't
                  > needed. Nature should favor beings of comparable size.
                  >
                  > Percival Lowell did not necessarily influence Bradbury as
                  > he had Wells and Burroughs. It was enough to capture to
                  > capture the popular imagination. It persisted into the 60s.
                  > Nonetheless, there was enough coming from scientific
                  > circles to provide a realistic portrait of Mars. One notable
                  > source was a popular documentary done by Disney and
                  > Werner von Braun about Mars, a flight, and exploration.
                  > The portrait of Mars was realistic. A hospitable Mars
                  > endured regardless.
                  >
                  > Mars captivates us due to many similarites to Earth:
                  > the twenty four hour day (sol), seasonality, and discernable
                  > surface features such as canyons and mountains. I would
                  > love to see a manned mission on Mars before 2025. We
                  > should have been there before 1990.
                  >
                  > David in MA
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 10/16/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
                  > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 5:14 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello
                  > David
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Forgive the line bunching last and
                  > hopefully not this time. Doesn’t happen with all emails so might just
                  > be a
                  > filter thing. Anyone got any ideas on any format changes?? Doing this
                  > on from a
                  > copy and paste from Word.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Re: definitions. I think any genre can
                  > play fast and loose with reality, even if it’s not keeping the time
                  > frame in
                  > front of the reader.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Science Fiction specifically plays more
                  > with the science although strictly speaking, this is more applied
                  > science in
                  > technology changes and has the freedom to explore the future.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Re: Land Of The Giants. Specifically, they
                  > ignored the Inverse Square Law, where weight goes up in proportion to
                  > size.
                  > Then again, with that series, you can’t really be sure if they are
                  > actually on
                  > a giant world or they’ve been shrunk and on a normal sized world.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Re: Bradbury’s Martian Chronicles. Even as
                  > far back as the early 1960s, there was still thoughts around that the
                  > rest of
                  > the Solar System was inhabited. I suspect Bradbury was more influenced
                  > by Wells
                  > and Burroughs than Lowell though. You want an alien planet but not
                  > travel too
                  > far, then Mars isn’t a bad choice.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Geoff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
                  > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or
                  > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
                  > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT
                  > TRIES HARDER
                  > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!
                  >
                  >
                  > WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-
                  >
                  > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/
                  > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy
                  > /
                  >
                  > ***************************************************
                  >
                  > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: worldsecanalyst@...
                  > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:33:58 -0700
                  > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Geoff,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My understanding of science fiction is that the story and
                  >
                  > plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is
                  >
                  > theoretical and extrapolated. This is sufficient to suspend
                  >
                  > disbelief.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Science fantasy has certain scientific elements in play but other
                  >
                  > elements are disregarded to advance the story. The scientific
                  >
                  > elements should be established up front in the story. An
                  >
                  > example of science fantasy on TV goes is "Land of the Giants".
                  >
                  > Such a planet on which the "Spindrift" crashed on cannot exist.
                  >
                  > There are too many violations in physics and biology to allow
                  >
                  > it to happen.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ray Bradbury contrived a Mars based on the astronomy of
                  >
                  > Percival Lowell. Astronmers quickly took Lowell to task on
                  >
                  > his findings despite that he had good equipment. Lowell
                  >
                  > believed too much. As Mars studies progressed after
                  >
                  > Lowell, it was becoming clear to the scientific community
                  >
                  > that Mars was proving to be very inhospitable by terrestrial
                  >
                  > standards. Bradbury either disregarded or was not informed
                  >
                  > about the Martian environment. He was intent on producing
                  >
                  > stories.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > David in MA
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
                  >
                  > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  >
                  > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  > Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:31 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy.
                  > The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality
                  > has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep
                  > solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there.
                  > If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It
                  > allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The
                  > definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent
                  > about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a
                  > solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy.
                  > Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
                  >
                  > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or
                  > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
                  >
                  > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT
                  > TRIES HARDER
                  >
                  > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/
                  > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy
                  > /
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ***************************************************
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > From: worldsecanalyst@...
                  >
                  > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Agreed. Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Part of it was that he is not a member of the
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > and many others.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > fantasy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > David in MA
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dino
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Gads. You’re right. Shows how long ago I
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You’re quite right about the cat’s absence
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You could have been named after Miss Welch’s
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > father.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Martha and David
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bradbury has never seen himself as a
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It’s the media whose
                  > never got
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > the labeling right.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Geoff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or
                  > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT
                  > TRIES HARDER
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > WE DON’T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/
                  > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google
                  > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet
                  > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy
                  > /
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ***************************************************
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Geoff Willmetts
                  Hello David Looks like paste and copy works best. Re: technology in SF. Plausibility depends entirely on how it’s used and how convincing the author is . A
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 16, 2011
                    Hello
                    David



                    Looks like paste and copy works best.



                    Re: technology in SF. Plausibility depends
                    entirely on how it�s used and how convincing the author is . A lot of the
                    Golden Age authors didn�t need to do technobabble just do things in a
                    convincing way. Take Asimov�s robots. These days we know enough not to think
                    just dropping a positronic brain into the skull without hooking it into
                    anything isn�t likely to work but Asimov gets away with it because he doesn�t
                    go into exact detail.



                    Re: laws. Sorry, I was doing that off the
                    top of my head this morning. Try: The Cube-Square Law: is
                    the measure of tensile strength. The larger the size you give a creature, the
                    greater the mass. As the cross-section increases in size, the mass or weight
                    trebles. Even if you created the most exotic alien from the strongest organic
                    materials, there would be a limit to how big they could be and still be mobile
                    without breaking anything moving. That doesn�t mean you can�t have giant aliens
                    but unless they are immobile or weak, they aren�t likely to be world
                    conquerors.



                    Re: Bradbury. I suspect he�d also be the
                    first to admit he was a bit of a dreamer back then with those stories.

                    Not sure if I would want a manned trip to
                    Mars. Considering the dust problems with the Moon, bringing rust dust inside a
                    spaceship would be equally problematic. You�d probably have to do a set-up of
                    getting into a spacesuit as a variation on �The Andromeda Strain� but with a
                    zipper at the back.



                    Hello
                    Rob



                    I suspect �science fantasy� has been
                    bandied around when it doesn�t look like it has any current day science
                    associated with it. Van Vogt frequently got associated with it but as he was
                    consistent in his stories, I see him as an SF author. With his first two Null-A
                    books he was using teleportation (similiarization) and spare bodies (clones)
                    and even terraforming before they acquired the recognized labels they had
                    today.



                    In many respects, space opera tends to use
                    SF as a window-dressing ie a laser gun is just a fancy pistol and a spaceship a
                    fancy vehicle. The story, with little adjustment, would fit into general genre.



                    Now when it comes to magic, then yes, it
                    is fantasy, even if we remember Clarke�s Law that any advanced science will
                    look like magic. If cause and effect is used consistently then it can fall in
                    line with SF. Although I haven�t read any of the recent Dr. Strange mags from
                    Marvel, you know what he was invoking with his spell incantations hence I tend
                    to see the mage as SF, which is a good thing as he is in an SF universe.



                    A lot of prose fantasy writers see Tolkien
                    as their template but lack his self-consistency and think it just gives liberty
                    to do anything. Fantasy realities tend not to worry about reality
                    infra-structure and how people live outside of the hunt or chase.



                    As to �Space: 1999�. Considering how consistent
                    �UFO�, �Space: 1999� has to be one of the worst examples of not doing anything
                    that makes much sense. Hope I�m not offending anyone here cos I know some of
                    you are fans of that show. I�m open to discussion.



                    Just so we can bring �Search�
                    into this. We know today that miniaturisation of TV cameras to that level is
                    possible today, but back in the 70s it still looked like SF.

                    Geoff





                    ********* GF Willmetts ****************************
                    Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk
                    THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT TRIES HARDER
                    Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!


                    WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

                    AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/ DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

                    ***************************************************

                    To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com
                    From: CptMatt@...
                    Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:38:14 -0500
                    Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury




























                    Since I started reading SF as a kid, it's always been broken up into 2 classes, science fiction and space pera. I've never run into "science fantasy" before. Science fiction was always typified by its harder edge and attempt to at least remain in the same ballpark as known fact and current accepted theory. Space opera created a story that was regardless of science in most any way, shape or form. Fantasy, in my experience, has been relegated to wizards, dragons, hobbits and friendly, powerful lions. :-)



                    The way I break them down, in media I'm familiar with:



                    Science fiction: Star Trek, 2001, Silent Running, Contact, Outland, Alien



                    Space Opera: Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica (with MAJOR nod to the original series), Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Martian Chronicles, VttBotS



                    There's a few that fall somewhere in between, a lot of plausible tech and theory but in an science defying overall framework, like SPACE:1999.



                    Personally, I enjoy both completely and equally, for watching, reading or playing (as in RPGs like Traveller and Space:1889).



                    Rob McNay

                    Chicago IL



                    > -----Original Message-----

                    > From: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

                    > [mailto:probe_control@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Marks

                    > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:04 AM

                    > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

                    > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello Geoff,

                    >

                    > No apology needed. Your posting was readable. I have

                    > latched on to a fun thread for discussion.

                    >

                    > Technology makes the story more plausible. However, even

                    > if the technology is weak or non-existent, theory can make

                    > it workable for science fiction.

                    >

                    > With respect to "Land of the Giants," you must be refering

                    > to Newton's Law of Gravitation (not to be confused with his

                    > three laws of motion). Gravitation is a function of mass. As

                    > a planet with high gravity, living beings would be very squat.

                    > If it were an earth-mass planet with far greater surface area

                    > (a low density planet), this is workable, maybe. It really isn't

                    > needed. Nature should favor beings of comparable size.

                    >

                    > Percival Lowell did not necessarily influence Bradbury as

                    > he had Wells and Burroughs. It was enough to capture to

                    > capture the popular imagination. It persisted into the 60s.

                    > Nonetheless, there was enough coming from scientific

                    > circles to provide a realistic portrait of Mars. One notable

                    > source was a popular documentary done by Disney and

                    > Werner von Braun about Mars, a flight, and exploration.

                    > The portrait of Mars was realistic. A hospitable Mars

                    > endured regardless.

                    >

                    > Mars captivates us due to many similarites to Earth:

                    > the twenty four hour day (sol), seasonality, and discernable

                    > surface features such as canyons and mountains. I would

                    > love to see a manned mission on Mars before 2025. We

                    > should have been there before 1990.

                    >

                    > David in MA

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > --- On Sun, 10/16/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:

                    >

                    >

                    > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

                    > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

                    > Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 5:14 AM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello

                    > David

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Forgive the line bunching last and

                    > hopefully not this time. Doesn�t happen with all emails so might just

                    > be a

                    > filter thing. Anyone got any ideas on any format changes?? Doing this

                    > on from a

                    > copy and paste from Word.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Re: definitions. I think any genre can

                    > play fast and loose with reality, even if it�s not keeping the time

                    > frame in

                    > front of the reader.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Science Fiction specifically plays more

                    > with the science although strictly speaking, this is more applied

                    > science in

                    > technology changes and has the freedom to explore the future.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Re: Land Of The Giants. Specifically, they

                    > ignored the Inverse Square Law, where weight goes up in proportion to

                    > size.

                    > Then again, with that series, you can�t really be sure if they are

                    > actually on

                    > a giant world or they�ve been shrunk and on a normal sized world.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Re: Bradbury�s Martian Chronicles. Even as

                    > far back as the early 1960s, there was still thoughts around that the

                    > rest of

                    > the Solar System was inhabited. I suspect Bradbury was more influenced

                    > by Wells

                    > and Burroughs than Lowell though. You want an alien planet but not

                    > travel too

                    > far, then Mars isn�t a bad choice.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Geoff

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

                    > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or

                    > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

                    > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT

                    > TRIES HARDER

                    > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!

                    >

                    >

                    > WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

                    >

                    > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

                    > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy

                    > /

                    >

                    > ***************************************************

                    >

                    > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

                    > From: worldsecanalyst@...

                    > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:33:58 -0700

                    > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Geoff,

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > My understanding of science fiction is that the story and

                    >

                    > plot devices exist within the realm of science but much is

                    >

                    > theoretical and extrapolated. This is sufficient to suspend

                    >

                    > disbelief.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Science fantasy has certain scientific elements in play but other

                    >

                    > elements are disregarded to advance the story. The scientific

                    >

                    > elements should be established up front in the story. An

                    >

                    > example of science fantasy on TV goes is "Land of the Giants".

                    >

                    > Such a planet on which the "Spindrift" crashed on cannot exist.

                    >

                    > There are too many violations in physics and biology to allow

                    >

                    > it to happen.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Ray Bradbury contrived a Mars based on the astronomy of

                    >

                    > Percival Lowell. Astronmers quickly took Lowell to task on

                    >

                    > his findings despite that he had good equipment. Lowell

                    >

                    > believed too much. As Mars studies progressed after

                    >

                    > Lowell, it was becoming clear to the scientific community

                    >

                    > that Mars was proving to be very inhospitable by terrestrial

                    >

                    > standards. Bradbury either disregarded or was not informed

                    >

                    > about the Martian environment. He was intent on producing

                    >

                    > stories.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > David in MA

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

                    >

                    > Subject: RE: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    >

                    > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

                    >

                    > Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:31 PM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello David I tend to have very mixed feelings about science fantasy.

                    > The definition of Science Fiction is that any rule change for a reality

                    > has to remain consistent throughout. Generally, the writer has to keep

                    > solutions within that framework and resolve problems with what's there.

                    > If sensible, the author won't have to redraft to sort out cock-ups. It

                    > allows for things like faster-than light and time travel. The

                    > definiiton of fantasy is that the writer doesn't have to be consistent

                    > about anything so if there's a plot problem, it can be cheated with a

                    > solution.Now is can see the problem when it comes to science fantasy.

                    > Where is the dividing line or is there a fresh definition?? Geoff

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

                    >

                    > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or

                    > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

                    >

                    > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT

                    > TRIES HARDER

                    >

                    > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

                    > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy

                    > /

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ***************************************************

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > To: probe_control@yahoogroups.com

                    >

                    > From: worldsecanalyst@...

                    >

                    > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:53:45 -0700

                    >

                    > Subject: Re: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Agreed. Bradbury is recognized as fantasy.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Part of it was that he is not a member of the

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Campbell circle unlike Clarke, Asimov, Clement,

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > and many others.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > As a movie it, in my belief, shifted as science

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > fantasy.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > David in MA

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...> wrote:

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > From: Geoff Willmetts <gfwillmetts@...>

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Subject: [probe_control] Cats, names and Bradbury

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > To: "chat search" <probe_control@yahoogroups.com>

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:14 AM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Dino

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Gads. You�re right. Shows how long ago I

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > saw the series last.Just had a look around on UTube:-

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJu8RreAGnM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > You�re quite right about the cat�s absence

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > in the series. I guess they would have more air time with Dino.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > John

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > You could have been named after Miss Welch�s

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > father.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hello

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Martha and David

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Bradbury has never seen himself as a

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Science Fiction writer, only a fantasy writer. It�s the media whose

                    > never got

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > the labeling right.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Geoff

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ********* GF Willmetts ****************************

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Commissioning Editor: http://www.sfcrowsnest.co.uk or

                    > http://www.computercrowsnest.co.uk

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > THE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MAGAZINE THE E-BOOK PUBLISHER THAT

                    > TRIES HARDER

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Between 42-48 million hits a month!!!

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > WE DON�T CHOOSE OUR RANK POSITIONS, OTHERS PUT US THERE:-

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > AOL AOL ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://search.aol.com/aolcom/browse?id=906&source=subcats Yahoo Yahoo

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #4 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/

                    > DMOZ DMOZ ranks SFcrowsnest #1 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://dmoz.org/Arts/Literature/Genres/Science_Fiction/ Google Google

                    > ranks SFcrowsnest #2 most popular SFF site on the Internet

                    > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Genres/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy

                    > /

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ***************************************************

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ------------------------------------

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ------------------------------------

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ------------------------------------

                    >

                    > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ------------------------------------

                    >

                    > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >

                    >
















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.