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Re: [proa_file] Re: Ocean racing proas

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  • Peter Southwood
    The loads on the rig and beams will be lower and for shorter period when aback, even if the boat capsizes, as there will be little forward speed generating
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
      The loads on the rig and beams will be lower and for shorter period when aback, even if the boat capsizes, as there will be little forward speed generating wave impact and other dynamic loading on the beams over long periods. The conventional Pacific proa will capsize fairly easily with small volume ama, the Harryproas so far have usually had a weathercocking rig
      Cheers,
      Peter
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Robert
      To: proa_file@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:03 AM
      Subject: [proa_file] Re: Ocean racing proas


      I have to disagree on increased proportional structural load unless designed to weather cock the rig if taken aback, otherwise the crossbeams have to be able to take the weight of the main hull or have the rig collapse. A free standing rig with the sheets led to the ww hull would solve the problem.
      I have wracked my brain trying to get extra accommodation into the lw hull of a Harry without having to significantly beef up the structure. Every hole for hatch or companion way makes a mess of having simple stress lines, making for a heavier boat. I have come down to three small hatches and only accessed in good conditions for local cruising for occasional guests.

      What is the point of having the ww hull on a Pacific proa unless to provide righting moment. Righting moment is such an important part of the equation of any sailing boat. How can you have sufficient drive to push through nasty weather without that righting moment. Please compare actual weights of proas sailing and the sail they can carry at various windspeeds without the crew having to be uncomfortably perched on a ww hull.--- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southwood@...> wrote:
      >
      > Advantage of Pacific proa over Tri offshore = Lower loads on structure
      > Advantage of shunting = Lower loads on structure if you have a Pacific proa
      > Harry proas share these advantages and have more righting moment, albeit at the expense of proportionally increased structural loads (no free lunch), but still less than the loads on a Tri or Atlantic proa.
      > This is not rocket science. The righting loads must be transferred to the rig somehow.
      > Note that I have made no comment on disadvantages.
      > Cheers
      > Peter
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Robert
      > To: proa_file@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:31 AM
      > Subject: [proa_file] Re: Ocean racing proas
      >
      >
      > I feel the argument is of value as some of the attacks on a Harry are because of the limitations of some of the other Proas, such as problems about being caught aback, time and difficulty of shunting, comfort and the need to adjust ballast. There has been a lot of time and effort been spent in differentiation to avoid being lumped in the same boat.
      > I may be a heretic on this site, but I see no advantage of a Pacific proa over a tri once going offshore. I see no overall inherent advantage for shunting unless as a consequence of maximising righting moment and length for overall weight. Having the crew and living quarters as part of the righting moment in comfort is an important part of the equation.
      > As far as getting shunters into the water, I have started on a Harriette conversion from a Pacific, and have just about finalised my drawings for a 15m/10m Harry. The Harriette is actually in production and there are four being sent to Europe. At this size, it is moot as to the configuration as there isn't any accommodation, but they do not rely on any extra weight to ww other than enough to provide reasonably efficient bouyancy
      > > The argument is not really about Atlantic v. Pacific v. Harry Proa, but Catamaran/Trimaran tackers versus shunting Proa types.
      > >
      > > Focus on the shunting, then on the advantages you gain by having the assymetric configurations.
      > >
      > > The sail configurations comes later, just get some true shunting proas in the water............
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > > Paul
      > >
      > > Paul
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Laurent Coquilleau
      Here is the info I found on that French web site; I just realised that this is the site put together by Vincent Besin, the current owner of Cheers!! I hope
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
        Here is the info I found on that French web site; I just realised that this is the site put together by Vincent Besin, the current owner of Cheers!!
        I hope Vincent will not mind if I translate the information he collected. If it is an issue, the Moderator is more than welcome to remove this post. The data seems to be a bit old, dating from 2000 for the most part. I also discovered an association for owners of old multihull race boat at:
        http://www.goldenoldies.biz/
        This is only in French... I discovered that I was wrong on two points on one of my previous posts: from the list below, you will see that some of those boats actually won races, if not "outright", at least in their class. I also discovered that Team Philips has been found... in pieces and is sitting on a dock in the Feroe Islands. Go to the following link and scroll down to the last picture. It looks like a good "week end project" type of restoration...

        Kevin,
        If you want to take this and put it in wikiproa, please feel free.

        1979 MERLIN, then AZULAO II and finally FLEURY MICHON II
        A 42' shooner rig owned by Nick Clifton; she finished second in the 1979 Bermuda race, behind ROGUE WAVE, designed by Dick Newick. She was wrecked in the OSTAR 1980 following a collision with another boat.
        The boat has sailed 17,000 miles prior to the OSTAR.

        1979 LADY GODIVA, then GODIVA CHOCOLATIER, then SAINT MARC II and finally FUNCKY BUT CHIC
        A small 34' shooner built for Rory Nugent; she capsized in the OSTAR 80; then owned by Denis Gliksman. She is a Dick Newick design. She is now in dry dock in Port Laforet, France, nearby the CDK shipyard (famous French ship yard for racing sailboat). She is currently co-owned by Denis Gliksman and Jean Le Cam (a famous French skipper). You can find some (sobering) pictures of her at:
        http://www.wingo.com/newick/godiva/index.html

        1979 ETERNA ROYAL QUARTZ
        The first French built, a 54' boat designed by Dick Newick/ Jean-Marie Vidal/ Christian Augé. She was destroyed after a collision in the OSTAR 80 after one third of the race.

        1980 TAHITI DOUCHE, then SAINT MARC
        Owned by Alain Gliksman, she was a 55'09 sloop designed by Daniel Charles. Ran the race La Baule-Dakar in 1983, broke her daggerboards and lost a race which was reachable for her. She has been restored by Patrick Luscher and is now based in Saint Martin (is it the Dutch West Indies? Or the South of France? I am not sure...). TAHITI DOUCHE was first a shooner, then modified by Christian Augé, then modified a second time by Marc Lombard and finally modified by Patrick Luscher.

        1981 EKA GRATA
        First cruising proa, a sloop of 18m designed by Daniel Charles for Nicklauss Schiess. Destroyed in 1982 (smashed to the shore) after a journey England / France / Spain / Mediterranean Sea / Azores / France.

        1981 FUNAMBULE, then GUADELOUPE, then LESTRA SPORT and finally SHARP VIDEO before transformation into a 60' schooner named FRANCOFOLIES in 1990
        A Guy Delage shooned of 14 m waterline length, finished first in "Tour de la Guadeloupe" in 81; Guadeloupe is one of the French West indies islands. Finished first of "Trophée des multicoques" in 81. Finished first in its class and second overall in New York - Brest 81. Was world speed record holder in "open" category (I am not sure of what it means...) in Brest in '81 (the record held 5 years). She was the smallest boat that beat the Atlantic Shooner record accross the Atlantic Ocean, in a little bit more than 10 days. Finished first in its class and third overall in La Rochelle - New Orleans in 82. New Round Guadeloupe record in '82. Raced Transat en double in '83 skippered by Dany Delage and Béatrice Druon under the name SHARP VIDEO.

        1982 ROSIERE
        Flying proa rigged as a sloop, too complex and fold itseld prior to Route du Rhum 82.

        1985 LANGUEDOC ROUSSILLON
        Owned by Guy Delage, lost its mast and then held in gridlock in politico-juridico-economic mess.

        1986 LE PASSAGER DU VENT
        Sloop prao used in chartering

        1987 FUMEE NOIRE
        20m/9.6m, shooner, with 3 beams, designed and built by Christian Auge and Denis Kergomar as a working boat for the Marquises Islands (French Pacific islands), modified for racing but without success. Participated to the "Tour de l'Europe" 1987 in sloop configuration. Currently is dire economical situation with skipper Christian Augé in Brest, France.

        1989 CIMBA , KAURY
        Cruising flying proa, 38' sloop, owned by Russel Brown, are now in New England and are reserved, according to Dick Newick, to experienced sailors "with a deep philosophical conviction". It is worth noting that most people who sailed with Russ Brown got scared at one point or another. At the same time, Russ Brown has done ocran crossing with his boats in the worst sea conditions, always being in control.

        1990 1990 FRANCOFOLIES, ex-FUNAMBULE stretcehd to 60' by Lalou Roucayrol; lost its mast at the start of Route du Rhum 90; finished at an "unofficial" fourth place in La Baule Dakar 91

        1990 PRAO ( JP TURCO), built by Henri and Jean Cormier. You can see a picture here:
        http://membres.lycos.fr/ugmarie/zacheers/cheersjpg/cormierprao/cormierprao.htm
        Broke a shroud anchor point at the start of Route du Rhum 90. I know from French sailing magazine at the time that this boat was a tacker, not a shunter. It was actually made of different pieces from several other racing multihulls that had been partially destroyed in previous races. I believe the main hull and the beams and the float were from different boats.

        1992 DES JOURS MEILLEURS
        Pacific proa of 18m built at Vannes in France by Alain and Philippe GUILLARD, they are members of this forum!

        1999 PRAO DE CAMPING COTIER
        Camp cruiser, rigged as a shooner, of 10m; can be desassembled for trailering; it is defined as "biamphidrome" ( it sails as a Pacific Proa in light winds, and Atlantic proa in strong winds). Designed and built by Denis Kergomar at Ballaruc les bains, France.


        Regards,

        Laurent

        --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "pkeck2" <pkeck2@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I didn't get the feeling from the original post that he was trying
        > >to start a debate about pacific vs. atlantic proas. It seemed to me
        > >like he was wondering why we don't hear anything at all about these
        > >boats. As a group, we talk about and read about and think about
        > >proas all the time...yet we don't ever discuss any of those boats he
        > >posted that were actually built and sailed. So if we're all into
        > >proas, and we live all over the world, and we look up stuff about
        > >these boats all the time, how come we hear next to nothing about
        > >these proas that have already been built and sailed in what look
        > >like open ocean conditions?
        > >
        >
        > >There was a discussion recently about groupama 3 and BPV and team
        > >philips (or whatever they were called), and how they compare to the
        > >various proas that we always hear about. When the discussion about
        > >those big tris and cats was going on, the only proa that really got
        > >any mention was Cheers. And if there are all of those pictures that
        > >Kevin just gathered of *other* large proas, how come we never hear
        > >anything about them?
        > >
        > > So I could be wrong, but it seems to me like Kevin wasn't starting
        > >a debate, he was asking how we have this apparently large gap in our
        > >collective knowledge...and I agree. Where's the info on these
        > >things?
        >
        >
        > That's what I was after, but I don't think I was concise enough. Thanks for clarifying.
        >
        > I'm not trying to re-start any pacific vs atlantic vs WTW vs tacking debates, I too think they're as settled as they can be by us talking to each other. We each like what we like, fine. Go build a boat.
        >
        > I am for the most part simply mystified that we all talk about these boats in ways that don't seem to reflect reality; if one were to do a keyword search on proa_file, or indeed on the internet as a whole, proas would seem to be dominated by Russ Brown's boats, with Harryproas coming up fast and looking like the Next Hot Thing. Which indeed they may be. But Russ built what? Four cruising boats, which he raced a few times for fun? Vincent posted pictures of ELEVEN blue water atlantic proas, many with the same sort of schooner rig, all pretty racy looking and looking like there's a good bit of money in them, which makes me think there's a conventional wisdom somewhere about why an atlantic proa with a schooner rig is a good idea, and a thought that they could be raced somewhere, at some time. (Laurent's note that they change names often gave me pause, but in looking over the pictures carefully I don't think these are all the same boat with different paint jobs. Boy wouldn't that have been embarrassing?)
        >
        > If there is indeed a group of designers and sailors who have or had an argument for atlantic proas which is backed up by race results, or even by a lot of sea miles and experience, certainly I'm interested in what they have to say, especially if they include people like Dick Newick. I knew Newick designed Cheers, but if he went on to design a series of other atlantic proas he must have thought there was something to the idea. No offense to anyone out here, and I'm an amateur too, but Dick Newick's opinion carries a lot more weight for me than any number of people who have never built, sailed or designed an ocean going boat.
        >
        > Laurent said he found some stuff via google in French on one of the Newick boats, so I'd like to see what that was. Vincent Besin had some comments on some of the other boats, and I may be able to dig up more or email him about them.
        >
        > These boats raise two big questions for me:
        >
        > a) what race(s) were they built for? And did they ever race? And are those races still open to proas? I would think this would be of interest to any blue water proa builder.
        >
        > b) Laurent's comments about the atlantic configuration seem right to me, it maximizes righting moment. Ok. But why the schooner rig on so many of them? I have a schooner rig on my pacific proa, but I though an atlantic would shunt and balance with a centrally mounted una rig, which would be a higher AR. If an atlantic proa has *more* RM than the same weight tri or cat, why do these boats seem to have lower AR rigs than racing tris or cats? Is it because they're unstayed? What were those masts made of, I wonder?
        >
        > Kevin
        >
      • k_s_oneill
        Hi Thanks very much for the translation. I found the original site on Joe Oster s list of links. I ll add your translation to the wiki page in the next few
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 9, 2009
          Hi

          Thanks very much for the translation. I found the original site on Joe Oster's list of links. I'll add your translation to the wiki page in the next few days.

          So it looks like two of the boats are in fact the same boat. I wish I could find more about the tacking boat that was built from the remains of two different boats, what a great idea that was.

          Thanks for the help. I'm thinking about expanding the grid I lifted from Multihulls site to include all the blue water proas I can find, with basic data like designer, weight, LOA, BOA, sail area, dates, etc. This stuff needs to be available in a more organized way than it is now.

          Kevin

          --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "Laurent Coquilleau" <coquilleau@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here is the info I found on that French web site; I just realised that this is the site put together by Vincent Besin, the current owner of Cheers!!
          > I hope Vincent will not mind if I translate the information he collected. If it is an issue, the Moderator is more than welcome to remove this post. The data seems to be a bit old, dating from 2000 for the most part. I also discovered an association for owners of old multihull race boat at:
          > http://www.goldenoldies.biz/
          > This is only in French... I discovered that I was wrong on two points on one of my previous posts: from the list below, you will see that some of those boats actually won races, if not "outright", at least in their class. I also discovered that Team Philips has been found... in pieces and is sitting on a dock in the Feroe Islands. Go to the following link and scroll down to the last picture. It looks like a good "week end project" type of restoration...
          >
          > Kevin,
          > If you want to take this and put it in wikiproa, please feel free.
          >
          > 1979 MERLIN, then AZULAO II and finally FLEURY MICHON II
          > A 42' shooner rig owned by Nick Clifton; she finished second in the 1979 Bermuda race, behind ROGUE WAVE, designed by Dick Newick. She was wrecked in the OSTAR 1980 following a collision with another boat.
          > The boat has sailed 17,000 miles prior to the OSTAR.
          >
          > 1979 LADY GODIVA, then GODIVA CHOCOLATIER, then SAINT MARC II and finally FUNCKY BUT CHIC
          > A small 34' shooner built for Rory Nugent; she capsized in the OSTAR 80; then owned by Denis Gliksman. She is a Dick Newick design. She is now in dry dock in Port Laforet, France, nearby the CDK shipyard (famous French ship yard for racing sailboat). She is currently co-owned by Denis Gliksman and Jean Le Cam (a famous French skipper). You can find some (sobering) pictures of her at:
          > http://www.wingo.com/newick/godiva/index.html
          >
          > 1979 ETERNA ROYAL QUARTZ
          > The first French built, a 54' boat designed by Dick Newick/ Jean-Marie Vidal/ Christian Augé. She was destroyed after a collision in the OSTAR 80 after one third of the race.
          >
          > 1980 TAHITI DOUCHE, then SAINT MARC
          > Owned by Alain Gliksman, she was a 55'09 sloop designed by Daniel Charles. Ran the race La Baule-Dakar in 1983, broke her daggerboards and lost a race which was reachable for her. She has been restored by Patrick Luscher and is now based in Saint Martin (is it the Dutch West Indies? Or the South of France? I am not sure...). TAHITI DOUCHE was first a shooner, then modified by Christian Augé, then modified a second time by Marc Lombard and finally modified by Patrick Luscher.
          >
          > 1981 EKA GRATA
          > First cruising proa, a sloop of 18m designed by Daniel Charles for Nicklauss Schiess. Destroyed in 1982 (smashed to the shore) after a journey England / France / Spain / Mediterranean Sea / Azores / France.
          >
          > 1981 FUNAMBULE, then GUADELOUPE, then LESTRA SPORT and finally SHARP VIDEO before transformation into a 60' schooner named FRANCOFOLIES in 1990
          > A Guy Delage shooned of 14 m waterline length, finished first in "Tour de la Guadeloupe" in 81; Guadeloupe is one of the French West indies islands. Finished first of "Trophée des multicoques" in 81. Finished first in its class and second overall in New York - Brest 81. Was world speed record holder in "open" category (I am not sure of what it means...) in Brest in '81 (the record held 5 years). She was the smallest boat that beat the Atlantic Shooner record accross the Atlantic Ocean, in a little bit more than 10 days. Finished first in its class and third overall in La Rochelle - New Orleans in 82. New Round Guadeloupe record in '82. Raced Transat en double in '83 skippered by Dany Delage and Béatrice Druon under the name SHARP VIDEO.
          >
          > 1982 ROSIERE
          > Flying proa rigged as a sloop, too complex and fold itseld prior to Route du Rhum 82.
          >
          > 1985 LANGUEDOC ROUSSILLON
          > Owned by Guy Delage, lost its mast and then held in gridlock in politico-juridico-economic mess.
          >
          > 1986 LE PASSAGER DU VENT
          > Sloop prao used in chartering
          >
          > 1987 FUMEE NOIRE
          > 20m/9.6m, shooner, with 3 beams, designed and built by Christian Auge and Denis Kergomar as a working boat for the Marquises Islands (French Pacific islands), modified for racing but without success. Participated to the "Tour de l'Europe" 1987 in sloop configuration. Currently is dire economical situation with skipper Christian Augé in Brest, France.
          >
          > 1989 CIMBA , KAURY
          > Cruising flying proa, 38' sloop, owned by Russel Brown, are now in New England and are reserved, according to Dick Newick, to experienced sailors "with a deep philosophical conviction". It is worth noting that most people who sailed with Russ Brown got scared at one point or another. At the same time, Russ Brown has done ocran crossing with his boats in the worst sea conditions, always being in control.
          >
          > 1990 1990 FRANCOFOLIES, ex-FUNAMBULE stretcehd to 60' by Lalou Roucayrol; lost its mast at the start of Route du Rhum 90; finished at an "unofficial" fourth place in La Baule Dakar 91
          >
          > 1990 PRAO ( JP TURCO), built by Henri and Jean Cormier. You can see a picture here:
          > http://membres.lycos.fr/ugmarie/zacheers/cheersjpg/cormierprao/cormierprao.htm
          > Broke a shroud anchor point at the start of Route du Rhum 90. I know from French sailing magazine at the time that this boat was a tacker, not a shunter. It was actually made of different pieces from several other racing multihulls that had been partially destroyed in previous races. I believe the main hull and the beams and the float were from different boats.
          >
          > 1992 DES JOURS MEILLEURS
          > Pacific proa of 18m built at Vannes in France by Alain and Philippe GUILLARD, they are members of this forum!
          >
          > 1999 PRAO DE CAMPING COTIER
          > Camp cruiser, rigged as a shooner, of 10m; can be desassembled for trailering; it is defined as "biamphidrome" ( it sails as a Pacific Proa in light winds, and Atlantic proa in strong winds). Designed and built by Denis Kergomar at Ballaruc les bains, France.
          >
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Laurent
          >
          > --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "pkeck2" <pkeck2@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I didn't get the feeling from the original post that he was trying
          > > >to start a debate about pacific vs. atlantic proas. It seemed to me
          > > >like he was wondering why we don't hear anything at all about these
          > > >boats. As a group, we talk about and read about and think about
          > > >proas all the time...yet we don't ever discuss any of those boats he
          > > >posted that were actually built and sailed. So if we're all into
          > > >proas, and we live all over the world, and we look up stuff about
          > > >these boats all the time, how come we hear next to nothing about
          > > >these proas that have already been built and sailed in what look
          > > >like open ocean conditions?
          > > >
          > >
          > > >There was a discussion recently about groupama 3 and BPV and team
          > > >philips (or whatever they were called), and how they compare to the
          > > >various proas that we always hear about. When the discussion about
          > > >those big tris and cats was going on, the only proa that really got
          > > >any mention was Cheers. And if there are all of those pictures that
          > > >Kevin just gathered of *other* large proas, how come we never hear
          > > >anything about them?
          > > >
          > > > So I could be wrong, but it seems to me like Kevin wasn't starting
          > > >a debate, he was asking how we have this apparently large gap in our
          > > >collective knowledge...and I agree. Where's the info on these
          > > >things?
          > >
          > >
          > > That's what I was after, but I don't think I was concise enough. Thanks for clarifying.
          > >
          > > I'm not trying to re-start any pacific vs atlantic vs WTW vs tacking debates, I too think they're as settled as they can be by us talking to each other. We each like what we like, fine. Go build a boat.
          > >
          > > I am for the most part simply mystified that we all talk about these boats in ways that don't seem to reflect reality; if one were to do a keyword search on proa_file, or indeed on the internet as a whole, proas would seem to be dominated by Russ Brown's boats, with Harryproas coming up fast and looking like the Next Hot Thing. Which indeed they may be. But Russ built what? Four cruising boats, which he raced a few times for fun? Vincent posted pictures of ELEVEN blue water atlantic proas, many with the same sort of schooner rig, all pretty racy looking and looking like there's a good bit of money in them, which makes me think there's a conventional wisdom somewhere about why an atlantic proa with a schooner rig is a good idea, and a thought that they could be raced somewhere, at some time. (Laurent's note that they change names often gave me pause, but in looking over the pictures carefully I don't think these are all the same boat with different paint jobs. Boy wouldn't that have been embarrassing?)
          > >
          > > If there is indeed a group of designers and sailors who have or had an argument for atlantic proas which is backed up by race results, or even by a lot of sea miles and experience, certainly I'm interested in what they have to say, especially if they include people like Dick Newick. I knew Newick designed Cheers, but if he went on to design a series of other atlantic proas he must have thought there was something to the idea. No offense to anyone out here, and I'm an amateur too, but Dick Newick's opinion carries a lot more weight for me than any number of people who have never built, sailed or designed an ocean going boat.
          > >
          > > Laurent said he found some stuff via google in French on one of the Newick boats, so I'd like to see what that was. Vincent Besin had some comments on some of the other boats, and I may be able to dig up more or email him about them.
          > >
          > > These boats raise two big questions for me:
          > >
          > > a) what race(s) were they built for? And did they ever race? And are those races still open to proas? I would think this would be of interest to any blue water proa builder.
          > >
          > > b) Laurent's comments about the atlantic configuration seem right to me, it maximizes righting moment. Ok. But why the schooner rig on so many of them? I have a schooner rig on my pacific proa, but I though an atlantic would shunt and balance with a centrally mounted una rig, which would be a higher AR. If an atlantic proa has *more* RM than the same weight tri or cat, why do these boats seem to have lower AR rigs than racing tris or cats? Is it because they're unstayed? What were those masts made of, I wonder?
          > >
          > > Kevin
          > >
          >
        • k_s_oneill
          Ok, good point. Thanks. Kevin
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 9, 2009
            Ok, good point. Thanks.

            Kevin

            --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Dierking" <garyd@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think it's all about pitching. Pitching disrupts flow over the sails and reduces the power generated. Early modern multihulls pitched badly with tall rigs and a lot of time was spent getting the hull shapes right to dampen it. With a double ended proa, you don't have the option to flatten the bottom at the non existent transom, so the other option is to use a low aspect rig.
            >
            > Gary
            >
            >
            > --- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@> wrote:
            >
            > > b) Laurent's comments about the atlantic configuration seem right to me, it maximizes righting moment. Ok. But why the schooner rig on so many of them? I have a schooner rig on my pacific proa, but I though an atlantic would shunt and balance with a centrally mounted una rig, which would be a higher AR. If an atlantic proa has *more* RM than the same weight tri or cat, why do these boats seem to have lower AR rigs than racing tris or cats? Is it because they're unstayed? What were those masts made of, I wonder?
            > >
            > > Kevin
            > >
            >
          • Robert
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 9, 2009
              If you are talking about a semibouyant log in a traditional craft, I agree and I feel the strength of the Pacific proa is marvelous use of traditional materials, but most of the modern designs have considerably more bouyancy than the weight of the boat. Possibly going to what would effectively be a neutral bouyancy canting keel on a mono proa could work well, but in general, I prefer not to add weight unnecessarily--- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southwood@...> wrote:
              >
              > The loads on the rig and beams will be lower and for shorter period when aback, even if the boat capsizes, as there will be little forward speed generating wave impact and other dynamic loading on the beams over long periods. The conventional Pacific proa will capsize fairly easily with small volume ama, the Harryproas so far have usually had a weathercocking rig
              > Cheers,
              > Peter
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Robert
              > To: proa_file@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:03 AM
              > Subject: [proa_file] Re: Ocean racing proas
              >
              >
              > I have to disagree on increased proportional structural load unless designed to weather cock the rig if taken aback, otherwise the crossbeams have to be able to take the weight of the main hull or have the rig collapse. A free standing rig with the sheets led to the ww hull would solve the problem.
              > I have wracked my brain trying to get extra accommodation into the lw hull of a Harry without having to significantly beef up the structure. Every hole for hatch or companion way makes a mess of having simple stress lines, making for a heavier boat. I have come down to three small hatches and only accessed in good conditions for local cruising for occasional guests.
              >
              > What is the point of having the ww hull on a Pacific proa unless to provide righting moment. Righting moment is such an important part of the equation of any sailing boat. How can you have sufficient drive to push through nasty weather without that righting moment. Please compare actual weights of proas sailing and the sail they can carry at various windspeeds without the crew having to be uncomfortably perched on a ww hull.--- In proa_file@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Southwood" <peter.southwood@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Advantage of Pacific proa over Tri offshore = Lower loads on structure
              > > Advantage of shunting = Lower loads on structure if you have a Pacific proa
              > > Harry proas share these advantages and have more righting moment, albeit at the expense of proportionally increased structural loads (no free lunch), but still less than the loads on a Tri or Atlantic proa.
              > > This is not rocket science. The righting loads must be transferred to the rig somehow.
              > > Note that I have made no comment on disadvantages.
              > > Cheers
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Robert
              > > To: proa_file@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:31 AM
              > > Subject: [proa_file] Re: Ocean racing proas
              > >
              > >
              > > I feel the argument is of value as some of the attacks on a Harry are because of the limitations of some of the other Proas, such as problems about being caught aback, time and difficulty of shunting, comfort and the need to adjust ballast. There has been a lot of time and effort been spent in differentiation to avoid being lumped in the same boat.
              > > I may be a heretic on this site, but I see no advantage of a Pacific proa over a tri once going offshore. I see no overall inherent advantage for shunting unless as a consequence of maximising righting moment and length for overall weight. Having the crew and living quarters as part of the righting moment in comfort is an important part of the equation.
              > > As far as getting shunters into the water, I have started on a Harriette conversion from a Pacific, and have just about finalised my drawings for a 15m/10m Harry. The Harriette is actually in production and there are four being sent to Europe. At this size, it is moot as to the configuration as there isn't any accommodation, but they do not rely on any extra weight to ww other than enough to provide reasonably efficient bouyancy
              > > > The argument is not really about Atlantic v. Pacific v. Harry Proa, but Catamaran/Trimaran tackers versus shunting Proa types.
              > > >
              > > > Focus on the shunting, then on the advantages you gain by having the assymetric configurations.
              > > >
              > > > The sail configurations comes later, just get some true shunting proas in the water............
              > > >
              > > > Cheers
              > > >
              > > > Paul
              > > >
              > > > Paul
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
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