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RE: [PrimeNumbers] Checking Large "Prime Numbers"?

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  • Richard FitzHugh
    The latter number is divisible by 31. Richard
    Message 1 of 9 , May 8 1:41 PM
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      The latter number is divisible by 31.

      Richard

      >From: Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...>
      >To: "primenumbers@yahoogroups.com" <primenumbers@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: [PrimeNumbers] Checking Large "Prime Numbers"?
      >Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:09:25 -0700 (PDT)
      >
      >A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
      >
      > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999 zeroes,
      >with a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
      >
      > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such allegations?
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Phil Carmody
      ... With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second: ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2 ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p))) 31 293 2861 12547
      Message 2 of 9 , May 8 2:03 PM
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        --- Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...> wrote:
        > A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
        >
        > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999 zeroes, with
        > a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
        >
        > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such allegations?

        With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second:
        ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
        ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))
        31
        293
        2861
        12547
        time = 60 ms.

        Your colleague is a rank amateur at such claims.

        I suspect that there are as we speak only three people in the world
        (Peter Montgomery, Dave Rusin, myself) that have ever seen a proof
        of the truth or falsity of the following statement:

        3^(3^20)+4 is prime.

        Feel free to simply turn the tables on your colleague and recycle
        my example back at him. (It's not my claim, an anonymous 4th person
        made the claim but I don't believe he had any proof either way.)

        A Usenet archive should contain some clues as to the real solution.

        Phil

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      • Alan Eliasen
        ... with ... Impressive timings! This is the only response that actually seemed to answer the original question, *how does one go about it* rather than just
        Message 3 of 9 , May 8 3:45 PM
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          Phil Carmody wrote:
          > --- Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...> wrote:
          > > A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
          > > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999 zeroes,
          with
          > > a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
          > > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such allegations?
          >
          > With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second:
          > ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
          > ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))

          Impressive timings! This is the only response that actually seemed to
          answer the original question, *how does one go about it* rather than just
          enigmatically listing factors, which does not help the original poster, nor
          answer the question posed. Could you explain the mathematics behind this one
          (especially why you use the centerlift function and what it does) for those
          not familiar with Pari/GP?

          I would also be interested if the others who posted results would answer
          the original question--how one goes about testing claims like this
          (efficiently, I hope. I know how to do it several brute-force ways.) Thanks!

          --
          Alan Eliasen
          eliasen@...
          http://futureboy.us/
        • Phil Carmody
          ... Woo-woo! Brownie-points for Phil! I was thinking of answering by evaluating the expressions for the two numbers modulo 31 , which could have been a
          Message 4 of 9 , May 8 10:10 PM
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            --- Alan Eliasen <eliasen@...> wrote:
            > Phil Carmody wrote:
            > > --- Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...> wrote:
            > > > A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
            > > > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999 zeroes,
            > with
            > > > a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
            > > > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such allegations?
            > >
            > > With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second:
            > > ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
            > > ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))
            >
            > Impressive timings! This is the only response that actually seemed to
            > answer the original question, *how does one go about it* rather than just
            > enigmatically listing factors, which does not help the original poster, nor
            > answer the question posed.

            Woo-woo! Brownie-points for Phil!

            I was thinking of answering "by evaluating the expressions for the two numbers
            modulo 31", which could have been a middle-ground between my useful :-) and
            everyone else's useless :-P answers.

            > Could you explain the mathematics behind this one
            > (especially why you use the centerlift function and what it does) for those
            > not familiar with Pari/GP?

            It simply picks a distinguished member of the set of numbers == a (mod b) in
            the range (-b/2, b/2] rather than [0,b). So rather than +1 and p-1 you'll have
            -1 and +1. Hence the square to subsequently turn both of those into 1.

            > I would also be interested if the others who posted results would answer
            > the original question--how one goes about testing claims like this
            > (efficiently, I hope. I know how to do it several brute-force ways.)
            > Thanks!

            Essentially, the same way as the above, I'd bet.

            If you've been given a large number that is claimed to be prime, and it's not
            obviously a product of hand-crafted secret numbers, then the best way to
            counter the claim of primality is almost always to find a small factor. The
            best way to find a small factor is to evaluate the expression for it modulo the
            small primes in turn.

            Phil

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          • Bob Gilson
            Thanks to everyone for the great response - now for the joys of PARI/GP Regards Bob ... Woo-woo! Brownie-points for Phil! I was thinking of answering by
            Message 5 of 9 , May 9 8:01 AM
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              Thanks to everyone for the great response - now for the joys of PARI/GP

              Regards

              Bob

              Phil Carmody <thefatphil@...> wrote:
              --- Alan Eliasen <eliasen@...> wrote:
              > Phil Carmody wrote:
              > > --- Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...> wrote:
              > > > A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
              > > > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999 zeroes,
              > with
              > > > a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
              > > > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such allegations?
              > >
              > > With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second:
              > > ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
              > > ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))
              >
              > Impressive timings! This is the only response that actually seemed to
              > answer the original question, *how does one go about it* rather than just
              > enigmatically listing factors, which does not help the original poster, nor
              > answer the question posed.

              Woo-woo! Brownie-points for Phil!

              I was thinking of answering "by evaluating the expressions for the two numbers
              modulo 31", which could have been a middle-ground between my useful :-) and
              everyone else's useless :-P answers.

              > Could you explain the mathematics behind this one
              > (especially why you use the centerlift function and what it does) for those
              > not familiar with Pari/GP?

              It simply picks a distinguished member of the set of numbers == a (mod b) in
              the range (-b/2, b/2] rather than [0,b). So rather than +1 and p-1 you'll have
              -1 and +1. Hence the square to subsequently turn both of those into 1.

              > I would also be interested if the others who posted results would answer
              > the original question--how one goes about testing claims like this
              > (efficiently, I hope. I know how to do it several brute-force ways.)
              > Thanks!

              Essentially, the same way as the above, I'd bet.

              If you've been given a large number that is claimed to be prime, and it's not
              obviously a product of hand-crafted secret numbers, then the best way to
              counter the claim of primality is almost always to find a small factor. The
              best way to find a small factor is to evaluate the expression for it modulo the
              small primes in turn.

              Phil

              () ASCII ribbon campaign () Hopeless ribbon campaign
              /\ against HTML mail /\ against gratuitous bloodshed

              [stolen with permission from Daniel B. Cristofani]

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            • Thomas Hadley
              May I add a little more explanation to Phil s Pari script for us who are still novices? We re trying to find factors of n +/- 1 where n=6*10^1000000000.
              Message 6 of 9 , May 10 10:21 AM
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                May I add a little more explanation to Phil's Pari script for us who are
                still novices?
                We're trying to find factors of n +/- 1 where n=6*10^1000000000. Phil's
                script calculates
                n (mod p) for primes p from 2 to 100000 and then squares it. If the
                result is 1, then n (mod p)
                is either -1 or +1. If it is -1, p is a factor of n+1 and if n(mod p) is
                +1, then p is a
                factor of n-1. Squaring combined these two tests into one.

                Here was Phil's script:

                test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
                forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))

                For Pari novices, like myself, this is a good example of how to use IntMod
                types, which
                is what you get with the Mod(x,p) function. When you do arithmetic
                functions on an IntMod, the
                result is always calculated modulo p, so it never gets too big. Now,
                10^1000000000 is too big
                for Pari to handle, but Mod(10,p)^100000000 does not get too big. Pari
                will do this
                exponentiation without overflowing anything. Same with the multiply by 6.

                An IntMod type is always in the range of 0 to p-1 (mod p), and lift()
                converts that type to
                an integer in that range. But centerlift( ) converts it to an integer in
                the
                range (-b/2, b/2], as Phil explained. p-1 is now -1, p-2 would be -2,
                etc.

                Phil could have made his test use lift() and then compare test(p) to 1 OR
                p-1 which would
                require a temp variable but eliminate needing to square. Only Phil would
                know which
                would be faster. Here's how that could be implemented.

                test(p)=lift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)
                forprime(p=2,100000,temp=test(p);\
                if(temp==1,print(p," is a factor of n-1"));\
                if(temp==(p-1),print(p," is a factor of n+1")))

                I had to put \ at the end of some lines -- I still don't know the rules
                about when
                they are necessary.

                Hope this helps.

                Tom Hadley

                primenumbers@yahoogroups.com wrote on 05/09/2006 10:01:04 AM:

                > Thanks to everyone for the great response - now for the joys of PARI/GP
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Bob
                >
                > Phil Carmody <thefatphil@...> wrote:
                > --- Alan Eliasen <eliasen@...> wrote:
                > > Phil Carmody wrote:
                > > > --- Bob Gilson <bobgillson@...> wrote:
                > > > > A colleague of mine claimed the other day that
                > > > > 5, followed by one billion 9's, and 6, followed by 999,999,999
                zeroes,
                > > with
                > > > > a further last digit being 1, are in fact twin primes.
                > > > > How does anyone go about refuting or confirming such
                allegations?
                > > >
                > > > With Pari/GP in a fraction of a second:
                > > > ? test(p)=centerlift(6*Mod(10,p)^1000000000)^2
                > > > ? forprime(p=2,100000,if(test(p)==1,print(p)))
                > >
                > > Impressive timings! This is the only response that actually seemed
                to
                > > answer the original question, *how does one go about it* rather than
                just
                > > enigmatically listing factors, which does not help the original
                poster, nor
                > > answer the question posed.
                >
                > Woo-woo! Brownie-points for Phil!
                >
                > I was thinking of answering "by evaluating the expressions for the two
                numbers
                > modulo 31", which could have been a middle-ground between my useful :-)
                and
                > everyone else's useless :-P answers.
                >
                > > Could you explain the mathematics behind this one
                > > (especially why you use the centerlift function and what it does) for
                those
                > > not familiar with Pari/GP?
                >
                > It simply picks a distinguished member of the set of numbers == a (mod
                b) in
                > the range (-b/2, b/2] rather than [0,b). So rather than +1 and p-1
                you'll have
                > -1 and +1. Hence the square to subsequently turn both of those into 1.
                >
                > > I would also be interested if the others who posted results would
                answer
                > > the original question--how one goes about testing claims like this
                > > (efficiently, I hope. I know how to do it several brute-force ways.)
                > > Thanks!
                >
                > Essentially, the same way as the above, I'd bet.
                >
                > If you've been given a large number that is claimed to be prime, and
                it's not
                > obviously a product of hand-crafted secret numbers, then the best way to
                > counter the claim of primality is almost always to find a small factor.
                The
                > best way to find a small factor is to evaluate the expression for
                itmodulo the
                > small primes in turn.
                >
                > Phil
                >


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