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Re: [PrimeNumbers] Re: state of the art in primality proving

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  • Cletus Emmanuel
    Marcel, At first, I thought, Why can t we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 27, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Marcel,
      At first, I thought, Why can't we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about this company threatening you. I wish that you had the resources to fight. I love the free flow of information and I hate those who restrict it. Why can't we all just have a free flow of intellectual information without monetary gain. I'll tell you, I've learn a lot from this group. Its a good thing that there isn't a patent on the info flowing out of this group. And thank goodness you guys didn't charge me for info (LOL). I do hope that we can find a way around these crapy patent laws soon ..........
      -----Cletus Emmanuel
      P.S.: I did read the Marcel post on why we can't use PRIMO in the US, Canada and Japan.

      gchil0 <jgchilders@...> wrote:
      Actually there's a bit more to it than this. He doesn't wish to
      restrict the use of his program but his hand was forced. In his
      license agreement:

      "PATENTS
      If the Author is advised that the Software is infringing a patent, the
      Author shall forbid distribution and use of the Software in all
      countries where the patent is applicable. In this case, the User's
      sole remedy shall be to refrain from using the Software in such
      countries or to obtain authorization from the patent holder."

      Oberthur Card System applied in 1999 for a patent on a method of
      point-halving in elliptic curves. Primo implements point-halving, but
      using a different algorithm than that described in the patent.
      Nevertheless, Oberthur sent Marcel a cease-and-desist letter. Not
      having the resources to fight this, Marcel had to comply and added the
      above to the license agreement. Hence the current restrictions.
      http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/effects/ocshit/index.en.html has a few
      more details and
      http://www.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/sci.crypt/2003-10/2784.html
      includes Marcel's thoughts on the issue.

      Greg

      --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, D�cio Luiz Gazzoni Filho
      <decio@r...> wrote:
      > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
      > Hash: SHA1
      >
      > > Maybe there is a lawyer on the list.
      > >
      > > What are the penalties if one does (inadvertently) use the
      software oin the
      > > US? Who will
      > > prosecute?
      >
      > This is merely a licensing question. Marcel Martin is free to choose
      who can
      > use his software or not. And in this case, he chose that citizens of
      the US,
      > Canada and Japan are not allowed to use it.
      >
      > Just as Phil Carmody chooses not to serve his webpages to certain
      countries.
      >
      > - From your message it appears you are interpreting it as an export
      restriction
      > question. It's not, it's a licensing question.
      >
      > > This is really sad. Why? what (who) is the hang up? Who owns the
      code that
      > > is in question?
      > > Is it a national security issue? I thought this was a free
      country. It is
      > > mind boggling that someone
      > > is using a complex variation of a+b and our country is saying no,
      this
      > > variation of a+b = 0.
      > >
      > > Suppose a savant in the US,Canada,Japan viisits Marcel and is
      allowed to
      > > read the source. Now
      > > with the primo code in his/her head would he/she be allowed to
      think it
      > > through to a solution
      > > for their own personal amazement in these countries?
      > >
      > >
      > > This makes me so mad I could eat fried chicken!
      > >
      > > Cino.
      >
      > D�cio
      > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
      > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
      >
      > iD8DBQFAFaQIFXvAfvngkOIRAsyLAJsHq6ygamwwcBfBxmHXtaeUgsOmngCfcmy8
      > K4MlyDEoc0B6+tioITjLjC0=
      > =42x/
      > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



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    • Cletus Emmanuel
      Marcel, At first, I thought, Why can t we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 27, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Marcel,
        At first, I thought, Why can't we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about this company threatening you. I wish that you had the resources to fight. I love the free flow of information and I hate those who restrict it. Why can't we all just have a free flow of intellectual information without monetary gain. I'll tell you, I've learn a lot from this group. Its a good thing that there isn't a patent on the info flowing out of this group. And thank goodness you guys didn't charge me for info (LOL). I do hope that we can find a way around these crapy patent laws soon ..........
        -----Cletus Emmanuel
        P.S.: I did read the Marcel post on why we can't use PRIMO in the US, Canada and Japan.

        gchil0 <jgchilders@...> wrote:
        Actually there's a bit more to it than this. He doesn't wish to
        restrict the use of his program but his hand was forced. In his
        license agreement:

        "PATENTS
        If the Author is advised that the Software is infringing a patent, the
        Author shall forbid distribution and use of the Software in all
        countries where the patent is applicable. In this case, the User's
        sole remedy shall be to refrain from using the Software in such
        countries or to obtain authorization from the patent holder."

        Oberthur Card System applied in 1999 for a patent on a method of
        point-halving in elliptic curves. Primo implements point-halving, but
        using a different algorithm than that described in the patent.
        Nevertheless, Oberthur sent Marcel a cease-and-desist letter. Not
        having the resources to fight this, Marcel had to comply and added the
        above to the license agreement. Hence the current restrictions.
        http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/effects/ocshit/index.en.html has a few
        more details and
        http://www.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/sci.crypt/2003-10/2784.html
        includes Marcel's thoughts on the issue.

        Greg

        --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, D�cio Luiz Gazzoni Filho
        <decio@r...> wrote:
        > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
        > Hash: SHA1
        >
        > > Maybe there is a lawyer on the list.
        > >
        > > What are the penalties if one does (inadvertently) use the
        software oin the
        > > US? Who will
        > > prosecute?
        >
        > This is merely a licensing question. Marcel Martin is free to choose
        who can
        > use his software or not. And in this case, he chose that citizens of
        the US,
        > Canada and Japan are not allowed to use it.
        >
        > Just as Phil Carmody chooses not to serve his webpages to certain
        countries.
        >
        > - From your message it appears you are interpreting it as an export
        restriction
        > question. It's not, it's a licensing question.
        >
        > > This is really sad. Why? what (who) is the hang up? Who owns the
        code that
        > > is in question?
        > > Is it a national security issue? I thought this was a free
        country. It is
        > > mind boggling that someone
        > > is using a complex variation of a+b and our country is saying no,
        this
        > > variation of a+b = 0.
        > >
        > > Suppose a savant in the US,Canada,Japan viisits Marcel and is
        allowed to
        > > read the source. Now
        > > with the primo code in his/her head would he/she be allowed to
        think it
        > > through to a solution
        > > for their own personal amazement in these countries?
        > >
        > >
        > > This makes me so mad I could eat fried chicken!
        > >
        > > Cino.
        >
        > D�cio
        > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
        > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
        >
        > iD8DBQFAFaQIFXvAfvngkOIRAsyLAJsHq6ygamwwcBfBxmHXtaeUgsOmngCfcmy8
        > K4MlyDEoc0B6+tioITjLjC0=
        > =42x/
        > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



        Unsubscribe by an email to: primenumbers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        The Prime Pages : http://www.primepages.org/




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cletus Emmanuel
        Marcel, At first, I thought, Why can t we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 27, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Marcel,
          At first, I thought, Why can't we use your software in the US? It made me sad. I thought you were to blame. But now I see. And I am furious about this company threatening you. I wish that you had the resources to fight. I love the free flow of information and I hate those who restrict it. Why can't we all just have a free flow of intellectual information without monetary gain. I'll tell you, I've learn a lot from this group. Its a good thing that there isn't a patent on the info flowing out of this group. And thank goodness you guys didn't charge me for info (LOL). I do hope that we can find a way around these crapy patent laws soon ..........
          -----Cletus Emmanuel
          P.S.: I did read the Marcel post on why we can't use PRIMO in the US, Canada and Japan.

          gchil0 <jgchilders@...> wrote:
          Actually there's a bit more to it than this. He doesn't wish to
          restrict the use of his program but his hand was forced. In his
          license agreement:

          "PATENTS
          If the Author is advised that the Software is infringing a patent, the
          Author shall forbid distribution and use of the Software in all
          countries where the patent is applicable. In this case, the User's
          sole remedy shall be to refrain from using the Software in such
          countries or to obtain authorization from the patent holder."

          Oberthur Card System applied in 1999 for a patent on a method of
          point-halving in elliptic curves. Primo implements point-halving, but
          using a different algorithm than that described in the patent.
          Nevertheless, Oberthur sent Marcel a cease-and-desist letter. Not
          having the resources to fight this, Marcel had to comply and added the
          above to the license agreement. Hence the current restrictions.
          http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/effects/ocshit/index.en.html has a few
          more details and
          http://www.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/sci.crypt/2003-10/2784.html
          includes Marcel's thoughts on the issue.

          Greg

          --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, D�cio Luiz Gazzoni Filho
          <decio@r...> wrote:
          > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
          > Hash: SHA1
          >
          > > Maybe there is a lawyer on the list.
          > >
          > > What are the penalties if one does (inadvertently) use the
          software oin the
          > > US? Who will
          > > prosecute?
          >
          > This is merely a licensing question. Marcel Martin is free to choose
          who can
          > use his software or not. And in this case, he chose that citizens of
          the US,
          > Canada and Japan are not allowed to use it.
          >
          > Just as Phil Carmody chooses not to serve his webpages to certain
          countries.
          >
          > - From your message it appears you are interpreting it as an export
          restriction
          > question. It's not, it's a licensing question.
          >
          > > This is really sad. Why? what (who) is the hang up? Who owns the
          code that
          > > is in question?
          > > Is it a national security issue? I thought this was a free
          country. It is
          > > mind boggling that someone
          > > is using a complex variation of a+b and our country is saying no,
          this
          > > variation of a+b = 0.
          > >
          > > Suppose a savant in the US,Canada,Japan viisits Marcel and is
          allowed to
          > > read the source. Now
          > > with the primo code in his/her head would he/she be allowed to
          think it
          > > through to a solution
          > > for their own personal amazement in these countries?
          > >
          > >
          > > This makes me so mad I could eat fried chicken!
          > >
          > > Cino.
          >
          > D�cio
          > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
          > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
          >
          > iD8DBQFAFaQIFXvAfvngkOIRAsyLAJsHq6ygamwwcBfBxmHXtaeUgsOmngCfcmy8
          > K4MlyDEoc0B6+tioITjLjC0=
          > =42x/
          > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



          Unsubscribe by an email to: primenumbers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          The Prime Pages : http://www.primepages.org/




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          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/primenumbers/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cino hilliard
          Thanks Craig and others for the responses and answers. I now have a much better understanding of what is going on with this Marcel thing. I will admit, I used
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 27, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks Craig and others for the responses and answers. I now have a much
            better understanding of
            what is going on with this Marcel thing.

            I will admit, I used his primo and recall using a few years ago. I will
            honor the request to not use
            it anymore until Three countries come to their senses. But in this vein, why
            doesn't Marcel block
            the these countries by requiring a login procedure to his software? This
            will keep us all honest-
            those who admit using the code and those who don't.

            >From: Craig Pennington <cpenning@...>
            >To: primenumbers@yahoogroups.com
            >CC: primenumbers@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [PrimeNumbers] state of the art in primality proving
            >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:58:01 -0500
            >
            >On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:34:32PM -0200, D�cio Luiz Gazzoni Filho wrote:
            >[snip]
            > > This is merely a licensing question. Marcel Martin is free to choose who
            >can
            > > use his software or not. And in this case, he chose that citizens of the
            >US,
            > > Canada and Japan are not allowed to use it.
            >
            >That is not accurate. If I were residing in Amsterdam, I could use the
            >software on a computer in that country in spite of being a US Citizen,
            >and likewise if Marcel's neighbor were here sitting next to me about
            >five miles from perhaps the worst President my country has ever seen,

            Agree, Big Time! :-)

            >she would not be able to run the software on my wife's machine. The
            >license is specific to the location of the computer and not to the
            >nationality of the user.
            >
            >In fact, I suspect I would be within the license if I were to colocate
            >a machine in Amsterdam and run the software remotely. I would be
            >violating the license (and some US Patents) when I brought the machine
            >home.

            What if you brought the reaults home and used that to try with a slower
            program but knowing
            it was a good candidate to make the longer search worthwhile?

            My guess would be that it ok as it is ok to use the sqrt(2) computed with
            Pari,Maple,Mathematica
            etc. But then I don't know anymore here in USA. After reading all these
            posts and the links from
            Greg, I will give it some more thought. Can you imagine how much Einstein
            might owe to K&E for
            results on his slide rule? (please correct me if he used another maker). The
            last one made by K&E
            went to the Smithsonian in 1984 as I recall. I still have one with the
            origional leather case that I
            used from 1967 to 1980 at Wards. Whew, bankrupt Wards getting hit with a
            lawsuit from K&E for all the good sales estimates I made?

            Quiz
            How can you add primes on a slide?

            >
            > > Just as Phil Carmody chooses not to serve his webpages to certain
            >countries.
            >
            >Correct. Though Phil chose his stance for political rather
            >than legal reasons. Both are within their rights.
            >
            >Cheers,
            > Craig
            >
            >--
            >Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
            > Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
            > advanced.

            Cino
            "Behavior is not for the pursuit of survival but because of it."

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