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Re: [PrimeNumbers] primes and John Harrison

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  • Décio Luiz Gazzoni Filho
    ... Hash: SHA1 ... Quite simple, PUBLISH IT. That s how it s been done for centuries. If your work is as good as you claim, you re surely not going the way of
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 7, 2003
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      On Monday 07 July 2003 06:45, bejjinks wrote:
      > Recently I saw a movie from A&E called "Longitude". It is the story
      > of John Harrison.
      >
      > John Harrison invented the first clock that was accurate within a
      > second and his clock was made completely of wood. The he invented a
      > clock that could maintain that accuracy despite any jarring that may
      > encounter. Then he used this clock to solve a problem that had been
      > baffling people for years, how to determine longitude at sea. It
      > depended on his clocks being able to keep accurate time across long
      > voyages despite severe weather and ocean swells.
      >
      > However, John Harrison was not an astronomer. Nor was he a
      > navigator. He was a carpenter. So many discounted his work. They
      > thought "How can this non astronomer figure out how to find longitude
      > at sea."
      >
      > It wasn't until John was in his eighties that people finally
      > recognized that John had found the answer. I wonder if I will have
      > to wait until I am in my eighties before anyone will recognize that I
      > have found the formula for all prime numbers.

      Quite simple, PUBLISH IT. That's how it's been done for centuries. If your
      work is as good as you claim, you're surely not going the way of John
      Harrison. Further, mathematics is unique in the sense that, if you display
      your formula, prove that it works and rigorously bound its runtime
      complexity, there can be no discussion, as it's been _demonstrated_.

      > I find many paralels between my life and the life of John Harrison.
      > I'm not a mathemetician. You wonder how I can figure out primes
      > without having the extensive mathematics background that you all have.
      >
      > John was expected to build multiple clocks, test all of them, and
      > journey multiple times to the West Indies to prove his theories
      > despite the fact that John only had a carpenter's income to fund all
      > this work. You expect me to come up with a large prime number
      > despite the fact that my ancient computer can't handle any numbers,
      > let alone prime numbers, larger than 12 digits.

      Any modern C compiler today can handle 64-bit numbers (e.g. long long in gcc
      or __int64 in MSVC), which is 19-digit numbers. Of course you could download,
      say, gcc or PARI/GP and have access to numbers as large as you please.

      > Very well, if you insist, I'm working on a way to come up with large
      > prime numbers, despite my computers limitations, using my formula.
      > It may take time and even when I do come up with the number, how do I
      > send it to you. Should I type out every digit in an e-mail?
      >
      > Please, watch the movie "Longitude". Then ask yourself if you are
      > like those astronomers that stood in John Harrison's way and stood in
      > the way of science.

      No, you're trying to go against the way it's been done for centuries:
      PUBLISHING YOUR FINDINGS ON A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL. Think about it.

      Décio
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    • Décio Luiz Gazzoni Filho
      ... Hash: SHA1 ... Well, of course I didn t. I think everyone on this list has come across a Goldbach conjecture proof or a new formula for prime numbers at
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 7, 2003
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        On Monday 07 July 2003 18:18, you wrote:
        > --- Décio Luiz Gazzoni Filho <decio@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > Decio didn't even watch the movie "Longitude". If he
        > had, he'd know how silly his arguments were. Let me
        > illustrate.

        Well, of course I didn't. I think everyone on this list has come across a
        Goldbach conjecture proof or a new formula for prime numbers at some time, so
        they know how the drill goes. You're no different.

        > > Quite simple, PUBLISH IT. That's how it's been done
        > > for centuries. If your
        > > work is as good as you claim, you're surely not
        > > going the way of John
        > > Harrison. Further, mathematics is unique in the
        > > sense that, if you display
        > > your formula, prove that it works and rigorously
        > > bound its runtime
        > > complexity, there can be no discussion, as it's been
        > > _demonstrated_.
        >
        > Actually, John Harrison didn't publish his work. He
        > took his work directly to a board of astronomers and
        > demonstrated it for them. Then later, someone else
        > published John Harrison's work. I'm looking for the
        > opportunity to demonstrate as opposed to the
        > opportunity to publish.

        It appears that you don't, as witnessed by this previous post of yours:

        >I'm not going to print my formula here for two reason:
        >first, is security that someone doesn't snatch the
        >credit away, and second, it's too complicated to print
        >in an email message. However, I will go ahead and
        >describe some details about the formula.

        So I'm just assuming you want to keep it to yourself and still obtain funding
        to do your work. Well, good luck.

        > Also, the whole point of the movie was "how rigorously
        > must proof be displayed." John Harrison rigorously
        > displayed his work, complying with all the demands of
        > the board of astronomers, and still, the board of
        > astronomers kept saying that it wasn't enough.

        Physics != mathematics.

        As I said, publish your findings; if you demonstrate everything you claim,
        there'll be no discussion as to your contribution.

        > > Any modern C compiler today can handle 64-bit
        > > numbers (e.g. long long in gcc
        > > or __int64 in MSVC), which is 19-digit numbers. Of
        > > course you could download,
        > > say, gcc or PARI/GP and have access to numbers as
        > > large as you please.
        >
        > As I have said, I don't have access to a modern C
        > compiler, nor can I afford to purchase a computer that
        > can handle a modern C compiler, let alone gcc or
        > PARI/GP. I live just barely above the poverty line.

        If you have an x86-compatible computer, 386 or up, you are eligible for
        running gcc. I believe the same goes for PARI/GP.

        > > No, you're trying to go against the way it's been
        > > done for centuries:
        > > PUBLISHING YOUR FINDINGS ON A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL.
        > > Think about it.
        >
        > Actually, Galileo, Copernicus, John Harrison,
        > Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Isaac Newton and many
        > others went against, "the way it's been done for
        > centuries". Sometimes progress requires that we break
        > with tradition.

        I'm not sure if I understand you correctly: are you trying to say Einstein
        didn't publish his findings? Look up “Über einen die Erzeugung und
        Verwandlung des Lichtes betreffenden heuristischen Gesichtspunkt,” Annalen
        der Physik (1905) (on the photoelectric effect); "Über die von der
        molekularkinetischen Theorie der Wärme geforderte Bewegung von in ruhenden
        Flüssigkeiten suspendierten Teilchen,” in Annalen der Physik (1905) (on
        Brownian motion); "Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper," in Annalen der Physik
        (1905) (on special relativity); “Ist die Trägheit eines Körpers von seinem
        Energieinhalt abhängig?” in Annalen der Physik (1905) (on the equation
        E=mc^2); these are the classical 1905 Einstein papers, surely there are tens
        if not hundreds of others. He published a few books too.

        As for Stephen Hawking, there are 40 papers listed on arXiv.org. Obviously
        these are papers published on a peer-reviewed journal, not books (of which he
        published a lot of them too).

        As for Galileo, Copernicus and Isaac Newton, there were no scientific
        societies in their time, the idea of publishing was usually restricted to
        sending letters to friends.

        I won't even bother to comment on John Harrison.

        Décio
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      • Jud McCranie
        ... Well, demonstrate how it works to us. We will be able to give an informed opinion about it. No one will steal it from you. Your message will prove that
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 7, 2003
          > > Actually, John Harrison didn't publish his work. He
          > > took his work directly to a board of astronomers and
          > > demonstrated it for them.

          ...
          > >I'm not going to print my formula here for two reason:
          > >first, is security that someone doesn't snatch the
          > >credit away, and second, it's too complicated to print

          Well, demonstrate how it works to us. We will be able to give an informed
          opinion about it. No one will steal it from you. Your message will prove
          that you came up with it by the date of the message.

          > Actually, Galileo, Copernicus, John Harrison,
          > > Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Isaac Newton and many
          > > others went against, "the way it's been done for

          It is always a good idea to compare yourself to Galileo, Copernicus,
          etc. ;-) ;-)



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mark Underwood
          Hi bejjinks, First, it seems we are not receiving your replies. Please note that on your replies you have to override the default value which replies only to
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 8, 2003
            Hi bejjinks,

            First, it seems we are not receiving your replies. Please note that
            on your replies you have to override the default value which replies
            only to the individual and change it so it sends to the group.

            Secondly, I would very much like to hear what you have to say. I
            think that your theory can be explained even in text like this if you
            define your symbols beforehand.

            I agree with Jud, that if you are truly on to something, then your
            idea will be creditted to you and to no one else since it is
            preserved in the Yahoo archives, dated, for all to see.

            I see this forum as a place we can help each other out. Some people
            are great for idea origination, others are accomplished theoriticians
            and can work out the theory and possible proof behind an idea, and
            others are great at fleshing the theory out in clever computer
            algorithms.

            So I look forward to hearing more from you on this, if you wish. For
            instance, do I correctly recall you saying something to the effect
            that finding larger primes took *less* time than finding smaller
            primes? I would like to hear more about that one! And also, can your
            idea be used to demonstrate a numbers primality, or is it strictly
            for prime generation?

            Mark


            --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, "bejjinks" <bejjinks@y...> wrote:
            > Recently I saw a movie from A&E called "Longitude". It is the
            story
            > of John Harrison.
            >
            > John Harrison invented the first clock that was accurate within a
            > second and his clock was made completely of wood. The he invented
            a
            > clock that could maintain that accuracy despite any jarring that
            may
            > encounter. Then he used this clock to solve a problem that had
            been
            > baffling people for years, how to determine longitude at sea. It
            > depended on his clocks being able to keep accurate time across long
            > voyages despite severe weather and ocean swells.
            >
            > However, John Harrison was not an astronomer. Nor was he a
            > navigator. He was a carpenter. So many discounted his work. They
            > thought "How can this non astronomer figure out how to find
            longitude
            > at sea."
            >
            > It wasn't until John was in his eighties that people finally
            > recognized that John had found the answer. I wonder if I will have
            > to wait until I am in my eighties before anyone will recognize that
            I
            > have found the formula for all prime numbers.
            >
            > I find many paralels between my life and the life of John
            Harrison.
            > I'm not a mathemetician. You wonder how I can figure out primes
            > without having the extensive mathematics background that you all
            have.
            >
            > John was expected to build multiple clocks, test all of them, and
            > journey multiple times to the West Indies to prove his theories
            > despite the fact that John only had a carpenter's income to fund
            all
            > this work. You expect me to come up with a large prime number
            > despite the fact that my ancient computer can't handle any numbers,
            > let alone prime numbers, larger than 12 digits.
            >
            > Very well, if you insist, I'm working on a way to come up with
            large
            > prime numbers, despite my computers limitations, using my formula.
            > It may take time and even when I do come up with the number, how do
            I
            > send it to you. Should I type out every digit in an e-mail?
            >
            > Please, watch the movie "Longitude". Then ask yourself if you are
            > like those astronomers that stood in John Harrison's way and stood
            in
            > the way of science.
          • bejjinks
            ... replies ... Actually, I am not replying to every email I recieve. Most of the emails repeat the same basic messages and so I ve sent more group replies
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 8, 2003
              --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Underwood"
              <mark.underwood@s...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi bejjinks,
              >
              > First, it seems we are not receiving your replies. Please note that
              > on your replies you have to override the default value which
              replies
              > only to the individual and change it so it sends to the group.

              Actually, I am not replying to every email I recieve. Most of the
              emails repeat the same basic messages and so I've sent more group
              replies than individual replies. With the individual replies, I may
              have accidentally sent them to the individual I haven't sent very
              many individual replies.

              > Secondly, I would very much like to hear what you have to say. I
              > think that your theory can be explained even in text like this if
              you
              > define your symbols beforehand.

              I've chosen one individual from this group and I've asked him to help
              me clear up my terminology so that I can post it to this group in an
              understandable manner. I should have that email ready soon.

              > So I look forward to hearing more from you on this, if you wish.
              For
              > instance, do I correctly recall you saying something to the effect
              > that finding larger primes took *less* time than finding smaller
              > primes? I would like to hear more about that one! And also, can
              your
              > idea be used to demonstrate a numbers primality, or is it strictly
              > for prime generation?

              Yes, in a way, finding larger primes takes less time than finding
              smaller primes. More accurately, it's not that it takes less time,
              but that the number of primes produced is greater when working with
              larger numbers. In other words, it takes approximately 5 seconds to
              use my formula to calculate that 2 is a prime number. It also takes
              approximately 5 seconds to calculate all the prime numbers between
              30,000 and 500,000. In other words, it doesn't reduce the amount of
              time for calculation, it increases the productivity of the process to
              work in larger numbers. The only reason I haven't been working in
              larger numbers is because at a certain point, the process becomes so
              productive that my computer crashes from the sheer volume of numbers.

              Although this process is mostly useful for generating prime numbers,
              it does also offer some insight into the demonstration of numbers
              primality that can lead to further understanding of the nature of
              prime numbers. In particular, I know why all primes except 2 and 3
              either equal a multiple of six minus one or a multiple of six plus
              one. With a little help, I can prove that this is true of all primes
              except 2 and 3 and I can prove that there are other "magic" numbers
              besides 6.

              p.s. not all the responses I've recieved have been so rude. A few
              people, in this group and in other places, have been at least civil
              if not impressed by what I've got.

              Thank you for your questions.
            • Jose Ramón Brox
              Hello: I don t know if I missunderstood what you wanted to say, but... the fact that every prime is either in 6n+1 or 6n-1 is trivial, watching at the residues
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 9, 2003
                Hello:

                I don't know if I missunderstood what you wanted to say, but...

                the fact that every prime is either in 6n+1 or 6n-1 is trivial, watching at the residues modulo 6: 6n,6n+2,6n+4 = 2·(3n),2·(3n+1),2·(3n+2) ; 6n+3 = 3·(2n+1) ... the residues 0,2,3,4 can't generate primes because they actually become in composite numbers. This only gives us the residues 1,5 to generate the primes (but of course they also bring a lot of composites).

                I think you are computing something similar to the Erathostenes Sieve (as Dècio said), but I'll wait to see your base theory.

                Good luck, Jose Brox
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bejjinks
                To: primenumbers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:32 AM
                Subject: [PrimeNumbers] Re: primes and John Harrison


                --- In primenumbers@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Underwood"
                <mark.underwood@s...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi bejjinks,
                >
                > First, it seems we are not receiving your replies. Please note that
                > on your replies you have to override the default value which
                replies
                > only to the individual and change it so it sends to the group.

                Actually, I am not replying to every email I recieve. Most of the
                emails repeat the same basic messages and so I've sent more group
                replies than individual replies. With the individual replies, I may
                have accidentally sent them to the individual I haven't sent very
                many individual replies.

                > Secondly, I would very much like to hear what you have to say. I
                > think that your theory can be explained even in text like this if
                you
                > define your symbols beforehand.

                I've chosen one individual from this group and I've asked him to help
                me clear up my terminology so that I can post it to this group in an
                understandable manner. I should have that email ready soon.

                > So I look forward to hearing more from you on this, if you wish.
                For
                > instance, do I correctly recall you saying something to the effect
                > that finding larger primes took *less* time than finding smaller
                > primes? I would like to hear more about that one! And also, can
                your
                > idea be used to demonstrate a numbers primality, or is it strictly
                > for prime generation?

                Yes, in a way, finding larger primes takes less time than finding
                smaller primes. More accurately, it's not that it takes less time,
                but that the number of primes produced is greater when working with
                larger numbers. In other words, it takes approximately 5 seconds to
                use my formula to calculate that 2 is a prime number. It also takes
                approximately 5 seconds to calculate all the prime numbers between
                30,000 and 500,000. In other words, it doesn't reduce the amount of
                time for calculation, it increases the productivity of the process to
                work in larger numbers. The only reason I haven't been working in
                larger numbers is because at a certain point, the process becomes so
                productive that my computer crashes from the sheer volume of numbers.

                Although this process is mostly useful for generating prime numbers,
                it does also offer some insight into the demonstration of numbers
                primality that can lead to further understanding of the nature of
                prime numbers. In particular, I know why all primes except 2 and 3
                either equal a multiple of six minus one or a multiple of six plus
                one. With a little help, I can prove that this is true of all primes
                except 2 and 3 and I can prove that there are other "magic" numbers
                besides 6.

                p.s. not all the responses I've recieved have been so rude. A few
                people, in this group and in other places, have been at least civil
                if not impressed by what I've got.

                Thank you for your questions.



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