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Re: Bob LaFollette

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  • Ram Lau
    Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
      Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
      Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
      See below for details:

      Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
      Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
      7/3/2005

      Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
      founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
      died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

      Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
      death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
      Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

      Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
      joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
      U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
      and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
      issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
      go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

      Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
      as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
      (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
      becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
      the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

      An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
      laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
      Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
      Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
      Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
      April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

      He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
      aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
      Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
      establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
      legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
      Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
      Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

      Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
      hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
      Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
      accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
      as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
      attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
      citizens a right to a clean environment.

      Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
      were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
      program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
      $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
      package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
      program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

      Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
      and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

      He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
      discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
      When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
      issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
      college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
      the Vietnam War.

      On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
      of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
      promoting a cleaner Earth.

      Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
      schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
      estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
      countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
      activities, organizers said.

      Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
      player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
      and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
      issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
      abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

      He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
      an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
      the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
      Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
      President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
      war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
      appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
      I need my conscience."

      The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
      1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
      Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
      M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
      Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

      He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
      degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
      Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
      troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
      lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
      in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
      the state's National Guard.

      Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
      Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
      see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
      stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
      Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

      Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
      nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
      Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
      and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
      Wisconsin all are named for him.

      When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
      environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
      figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
      Roosevelt.

      The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
      experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
      Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
      naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
      Lloyd Wright.

      Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
      wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
      Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
      four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

      Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
      will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

      The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
      Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
      Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
      Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
      the Wilderness Society.


      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
      wrote:
      > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
      > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
      > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
      > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
      > Senator.
      >
      > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
      > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
      > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
      > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
      > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
      > thought that the President might listen to him on the
      > subject.
      > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
      > Congress."
      > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
      > President."
      > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
      > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
      > seeing, did not understand that it was already
      > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
      > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
      > said.
      >
      > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
      >
      > > While reading about the Harding administration and
      > > the Teapot Dome
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
      > > I
      > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
      > >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
      > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
      > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
      > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
      > > Republican
      > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
      > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
      > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
      > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
      > > administration.
    • Ram Lau
      Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
        Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
        on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
        deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
        real reason for the deficit spending.

        The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
        most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
        disrespect.

        Ram


        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
        wrote:
        > While reading about the Harding administration and
        > the Teapot Dome
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
        > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
        > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
        > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
        > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
        > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
        > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
        > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
        > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
        > administration.
        > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
        > the Iran-Contra scandal
        > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
        > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
        > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
        > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
        > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
        > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
        > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
        > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
        > Iran-Contra in the first place.
        > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
        > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
        > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
        > Leadership Survey
        > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
        > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
        > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
        > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
        > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
        >
        > Tom Johnson
        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Greg,
        >
        > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
        > Rand Institute in
        > her name a decade ago:
        >
        > http://www.aynrand.org/
        >
        > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
        >
        > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
        > reason, rational
        > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
        > capitalism.
        >
        > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
        > "cultural
        > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
        > anti-individualism,
        > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
        > culture. The major
        > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
        > is the
        > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
        > the
        > universities, where students learn the ideas that
        > shape their lives.
        >
        > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
        > historical
        > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
        > reverse the
        > current political and economic trends in America and
        > throughout the
        > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
        > philosophy."
        >
        > Ram
        >
        >
        > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
        > <gregcannon1@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
        > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
        > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
        > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
        > were
        > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
        > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
        > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
        > > thing they agreed on was that private property
        > should
        > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
        > Rand
        > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
        > them
        > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
        > She
        > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
        > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
        > birth
        > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
        > >
        > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
        > she
        > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
        > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
        > >
        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
        > > > surely a very
        > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
        > > > generation?) I sometimes
        > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
        > the
        > > > imprisonment.
        > > >
        > > > Ram
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
        > Cannon
        > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
        > but
        > > > I
        > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
        > > > him.
        > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
        > > > 1920,
        > > > > though he was still in jail.
        > > > >
        > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
        > > > use
        > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
        > Emma
        > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
        > was
        > > > not
        > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
        > Union
        > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
        > allowed
        > > > to
        > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
        > speeches
        > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
        > > > were
        > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
        > > > her
        > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
        > > > general
        > > > > than at Wilson himself.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
        > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
        > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
        > > > > > political
        > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
        > > > curious
        > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
        > > > Deb's
        > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
        > > > attempt
        > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
        > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
        > > > last
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
        > > > fact
        > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
        > > > immediately
        > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
        > astounding.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Tom Johnson
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
        > > > equality
        > > > > > that the original
        > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
        > > > > > Supreme
        > > > > > Court Chief
        > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
        > > > kind
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > Justice Bush or
        > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
        > > > > > bother
        > > > > > God when
        > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
        > never
        > > > > > happen to mankind.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
        > > > > > Democratic Party for
        > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
        > > > elements
        > > > > > that Woodrow
        > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
        > > > while
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > Republican Party
        > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
        > > > something
        > > > > > totally different
        > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > > BookTV interview
        > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
        > > > > > Roosevelt,
        > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
        > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
        > > > > > readable book:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ram
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
        > > > > > JOHNSON
        > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
        > responses
        > > > and
        > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
        > > > entertained
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
        > > > the
        > > > > > most
        > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
        > > > born
        > > > > > into
        > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
        > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
        > > > > > machinery
        > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
        > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
        > > > puppet
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
        > reading
        > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
        > > > trust-busting. He
        > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
        > > > post-presidency,
        > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
        > > > also
        > > > > > find
        > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
        > > > close
        > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
        > successor),
        > > > and
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
        > > > > > before
        > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
        >
        > > > the
        > > > > > 1912
        > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
        > > > 'congenital
        > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
        > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
        > Anthony
        > > > > > Cspan
        > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
        > that
        > > > Ram
        > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
        > > > she
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
        > > > the
        > > > > > whole
        > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
        > interview,
        > > > the
        > > > > > Debs
        > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
        > > > > > learning
        > > > > > a
        > > > > > > lot form you guys.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Tom Johnson
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
        > I'd
        > > > also
        > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
        > here
        > > > > > have
        > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
        > > > the
        > > > > > Taft
        > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
        > > > > > reading
        > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
        > > > began
        > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
        > > > Taft
        > > > > > into
        > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
        > > > though
        > > > > > > probably earlier.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
        > prosecutions
        > > > of
        > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
        > > > term,
        > > > > > but
        > > >
        > > === message truncated ===
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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      • THOMAS JOHNSON
        Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
          Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
          totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
          Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
          replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
          passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
          did get through usually benefited the rich at the
          expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
          Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
          going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
          "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
          Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
          un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
          he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




          --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
          begin my judgement
          on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
          his 8 consecutive
          deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
          spending were not the
          real reason for the deficit spending.

          The future generations will look at Reagan quite
          differently, and will
          most likely remember the baby boom generation with
          contempt and
          disrespect.

          Ram


          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
          <AVRCRDNG@F...>
          wrote:
          > While reading about the Harding administration and
          > the Teapot Dome
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
          I
          > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
          >
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
          > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
          > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
          > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
          Republican
          > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
          > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
          > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
          > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
          > administration.
          > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
          and
          > the Iran-Contra scandal
          > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
          > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
          > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
          > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
          immunity
          > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
          re
          > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
          > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
          > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
          pursuing
          > Iran-Contra in the first place.
          > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
          long
          > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
          the
          > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
          Presidential
          > Leadership Survey
          >
          http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
          > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
          > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
          > How different things might have been if Bob
          LaFollette
          > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
          not.
          >
          > Tom Johnson
          > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Greg,
          >
          > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
          > Rand Institute in
          > her name a decade ago:
          >
          > http://www.aynrand.org/
          >
          > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
          >
          > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
          > reason, rational
          > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
          > capitalism.
          >
          > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
          a
          > "cultural
          > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
          > anti-individualism,
          > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
          > culture. The major
          > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
          > is the
          > educational institutions—high schools, and above
          all,
          > the
          > universities, where students learn the ideas that
          > shape their lives.
          >
          > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
          that
          > historical
          > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
          > reverse the
          > current political and economic trends in America and
          > throughout the
          > world requires a reversal of our society's
          fundamental
          > philosophy."
          >
          > Ram
          >
          >
          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
          > <gregcannon1@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
          > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
          they
          > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
          different
          > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
          > were
          > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
          who
          > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
          > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
          main
          > > thing they agreed on was that private property
          > should
          > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
          > Rand
          > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
          > them
          > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
          > She
          > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
          apparently
          > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
          > birth
          > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
          time.
          > >
          > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
          > she
          > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
          What
          > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
          > >
          > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
          Rand,
          > > > surely a very
          > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
          > > > generation?) I sometimes
          > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
          > the
          > > > imprisonment.
          > > >
          > > > Ram
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
          > Cannon
          > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
          > but
          > > > I
          > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
          pardoned
          > > > him.
          > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
          in
          > > > 1920,
          > > > > though he was still in jail.
          > > > >
          > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
          the
          > > > use
          > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
          > Emma
          > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
          > was
          > > > not
          > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
          > Union
          > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
          > allowed
          > > > to
          > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
          > speeches
          > > > > against the war and against the draft.
          Thousands
          > > > were
          > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
          that
          > > > her
          > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
          > > > general
          > > > > than at Wilson himself.
          > > > >
          > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
          > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
          > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
          > > > > > political
          > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
          > > > curious
          > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
          that
          > > > Deb's
          > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
          > > > attempt
          > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
          > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
          the
          > > > last
          > > > > > to
          > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
          the
          > > > fact
          > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
          > > > immediately
          > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
          > astounding.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Tom Johnson
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
          > > > equality
          > > > > > that the original
          > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
          superb
          > > > > > Supreme
          > > > > > Court Chief
          > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
          what
          > > > kind
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > Justice Bush or
          > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
          only
          > > > > > bother
          > > > > > God when
          > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
          > never
          > > > > > happen to mankind.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
          The
          > > > > > Democratic Party for
          > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
          > > > elements
          > > > > > that Woodrow
          > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
          > > > while
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > Republican Party
          > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
          > > > something
          > > > > > totally different
          > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
          > of
          > > > the
          > > > > > BookTV interview
          > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
          > > > > > Roosevelt,
          > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
          > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
          very
          > > > > > readable book:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Ram
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
          THOMAS
          > > > > > JOHNSON
          > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
          > responses
          > > > and
          > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
          > > > entertained
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
          was
          > > > the
          > > > > > most
          > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
          was
          > > > born
          > > > > > into
          > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
          > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
          > > > > > machinery
          > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
          > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
          > > > puppet
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
          > reading
          > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
          > > > trust-busting. He
          > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
          > > > post-presidency,
          > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
          I
          > > > also
          > > > > > find
          > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
          > > > close
          > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
          > successor),
          > > > and
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
          together
          > > > > > before
          > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
          in
          >
          > > > the
          > > > > > 1912
          > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
          > > > 'congenital
          > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
          > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
          > Anthony
          > > > > > Cspan
          > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
          > that
          > > > Ram
          > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
          that
          > > > she
          > > > > > was
          > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
          see
          > > > the
          > > > > > whole
          > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
          > interview,
          > > > the
          > > > > > Debs
          > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
          > > > > > learning
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > lot form you guys.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Tom Johnson
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
          > I'd
          > > > also
          > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
          > here
          > > > > > have
          > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
          with
          > > > the
          > > > > > Taft
          > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
          I'm
          > > > > > reading
          > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
          > > > began
          > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
          taking
          > > > Taft
          > > > > > into
          > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
          > > > though
          > > > > > > probably earlier.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
          > prosecutions
          > > > of
          > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
          first
          > > > term,
          > > > > > but
          > > >
          > > === message truncated ===
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          ---------------------------------
        • Ram Lau
          Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
            Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
            Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

            His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
            how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
            the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
            conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
            driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

            Ram


            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            wrote:
            > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
            > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
            > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
            > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
            > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
            > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
            > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
            > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
            > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
            > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
            > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
            > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
            > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
            > begin my judgement
            > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
            > his 8 consecutive
            > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
            > spending were not the
            > real reason for the deficit spending.
            >
            > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
            > differently, and will
            > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
            > contempt and
            > disrespect.
            >
            > Ram
            >
            >
            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
            > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            > wrote:
            > > While reading about the Harding administration and
            > > the Teapot Dome
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
            > I
            > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
            > >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
            > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
            > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
            > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
            > Republican
            > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
            > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
            > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
            > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
            > > administration.
            > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
            > and
            > > the Iran-Contra scandal
            > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
            > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
            > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
            > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
            > immunity
            > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
            > re
            > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
            > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
            > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
            > pursuing
            > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
            > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
            > long
            > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
            > the
            > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
            > Presidential
            > > Leadership Survey
            > >
            > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
            > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
            > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
            > > How different things might have been if Bob
            > LaFollette
            > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
            > not.
            > >
            > > Tom Johnson
            > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Greg,
            > >
            > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
            > > Rand Institute in
            > > her name a decade ago:
            > >
            > > http://www.aynrand.org/
            > >
            > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
            > >
            > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
            > > reason, rational
            > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
            > > capitalism.
            > >
            > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
            > a
            > > "cultural
            > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
            > > anti-individualism,
            > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
            > > culture. The major
            > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
            > > is the
            > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
            > all,
            > > the
            > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
            > > shape their lives.
            > >
            > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
            > that
            > > historical
            > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
            > > reverse the
            > > current political and economic trends in America and
            > > throughout the
            > > world requires a reversal of our society's
            > fundamental
            > > philosophy."
            > >
            > > Ram
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
            > > <gregcannon1@y...>
            > > wrote:
            > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
            > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
            > they
            > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
            > different
            > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
            > > were
            > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
            > who
            > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
            > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
            > main
            > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
            > > should
            > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
            > > Rand
            > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
            > > them
            > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
            > > She
            > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
            > apparently
            > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
            > > birth
            > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
            > time.
            > > >
            > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
            > > she
            > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
            > What
            > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
            > > >
            > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
            > Rand,
            > > > > surely a very
            > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
            > > > > generation?) I sometimes
            > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
            > > the
            > > > > imprisonment.
            > > > >
            > > > > Ram
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
            > > Cannon
            > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
            > > but
            > > > > I
            > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
            > pardoned
            > > > > him.
            > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
            > in
            > > > > 1920,
            > > > > > though he was still in jail.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
            > the
            > > > > use
            > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
            > > Emma
            > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
            > > was
            > > > > not
            > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
            > > Union
            > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
            > > allowed
            > > > > to
            > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
            > > speeches
            > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
            > Thousands
            > > > > were
            > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
            > that
            > > > > her
            > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
            > > > > general
            > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
            > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
            > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
            > > > > > > political
            > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
            > > > > curious
            > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
            > that
            > > > > Deb's
            > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
            > > > > attempt
            > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
            > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
            > the
            > > > > last
            > > > > > > to
            > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
            > the
            > > > > fact
            > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
            > > > > immediately
            > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
            > > astounding.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Tom Johnson
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
            > > > > equality
            > > > > > > that the original
            > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
            > superb
            > > > > > > Supreme
            > > > > > > Court Chief
            > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
            > what
            > > > > kind
            > > > > > > of
            > > > > > > Justice Bush or
            > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
            > only
            > > > > > > bother
            > > > > > > God when
            > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
            > > never
            > > > > > > happen to mankind.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
            > The
            > > > > > > Democratic Party for
            > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
            > > > > elements
            > > > > > > that Woodrow
            > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
            > > > > while
            > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > Republican Party
            > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
            > > > > something
            > > > > > > totally different
            > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
            > > of
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > BookTV interview
            > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
            > > > > > > Roosevelt,
            > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
            > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
            > very
            > > > > > > readable book:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Ram
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
            > THOMAS
            > > > > > > JOHNSON
            > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            > > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
            > > responses
            > > > > and
            > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
            > > > > entertained
            > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
            > was
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > most
            > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
            > was
            > > > > born
            > > > > > > into
            > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
            > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
            > > > > > > machinery
            > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
            > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
            > > > > puppet
            > > > > > > of
            > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
            > > reading
            > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
            > > > > trust-busting. He
            > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
            > > > > post-presidency,
            > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
            > I
            > > > > also
            > > > > > > find
            > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
            > > > > close
            > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
            > > successor),
            > > > > and
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
            > together
            > > > > > > before
            > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
            > in
            > >
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > 1912
            > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
            > > > > 'congenital
            > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
            > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
            > > Anthony
            > > > > > > Cspan
            > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
            > > that
            > > > > Ram
            > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
            > that
            > > > > she
            > > > > > > was
            > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
            > see
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > whole
            > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
            > > interview,
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > Debs
            > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
            > > > > > > learning
            > > > > > > a
            > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
            > > I'd
            > > > > also
            > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
            > > here
            > > > > > > have
            > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
            > with
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > Taft
            > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
            > I'm
            > > > > > > reading
            > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
            > > > > began
            > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
            > taking
            > > > > Taft
            > > > > > > into
            > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
            > > > > though
            > > > > > > > probably earlier.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
            > > prosecutions
            > > > > of
            > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
            > first
            > > > > term,
            > > > > > > but
            > > > >
            > > > === message truncated ===
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
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          • THOMAS JOHNSON
            Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
              Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
              In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
              did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
              the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
              Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
              Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
              internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
              inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
              the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
              Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
              Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
              that increased American military spending by 8% per
              annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
              effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
              growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
              spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
              annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
              rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
              1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
              continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
              returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
              out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
              were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
              Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
              the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
              in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

              That didn't help.

              Tom


              --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


              ---------------------------------
              Princess David! He probably said that in his second
              term? His
              Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
              years.

              His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
              book confessing
              how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
              economics had damage
              the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
              true
              conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
              as immoral as
              driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
              generations.

              Ram


              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
              <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              wrote:
              > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
              pols
              > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
              > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
              > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
              > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
              what
              > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
              > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
              > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
              Africa,
              > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
              > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
              > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
              > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
              where
              > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
              > begin my judgement
              > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
              > his 8 consecutive
              > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
              > spending were not the
              > real reason for the deficit spending.
              >
              > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
              > differently, and will
              > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
              > contempt and
              > disrespect.
              >
              > Ram
              >
              >
              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
              JOHNSON
              > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              > wrote:
              > > While reading about the Harding administration
              and
              > > the Teapot Dome
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
              scandal,
              > I
              > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
              > >
              >
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
              > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
              in
              > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
              and
              > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
              > Republican
              > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
              > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
              man.
              > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
              > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
              > > administration.
              > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
              > and
              > > the Iran-Contra scandal
              > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
              > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
              > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
              > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
              > immunity
              > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
              > re
              > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
              Clinton,
              > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
              R-Cal,
              > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
              > pursuing
              > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
              > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
              > long
              > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
              > the
              > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
              > Presidential
              > > Leadership Survey
              > >
              >
              http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
              > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
              and
              > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
              > > How different things might have been if Bob
              > LaFollette
              > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
              > not.
              > >
              > > Tom Johnson
              > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Greg,
              > >
              > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
              Ayn
              > > Rand Institute in
              > > her name a decade ago:
              > >
              > > http://www.aynrand.org/
              > >
              > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
              > >
              > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
              > > reason, rational
              > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
              > > capitalism.
              > >
              > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
              spearheading
              > a
              > > "cultural
              > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
              > > anti-individualism,
              > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
              > > culture. The major
              > > battleground in this fight for reason and
              capitalism
              > > is the
              > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
              > all,
              > > the
              > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
              > > shape their lives.
              > >
              > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
              Objectivism�holds
              > that
              > > historical
              > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
              To
              > > reverse the
              > > current political and economic trends in America
              and
              > > throughout the
              > > world requires a reversal of our society's
              > fundamental
              > > philosophy."
              > >
              > > Ram
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
              Cannon
              > > <gregcannon1@y...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
              > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
              > they
              > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
              > different
              > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
              > > were
              > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
              > who
              > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
              always
              > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
              > main
              > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
              > > should
              > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
              > > Rand
              > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
              > > them
              > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
              control.
              > > She
              > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
              > apparently
              > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
              > > birth
              > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
              > time.
              > > >
              > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
              Was
              > > she
              > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
              > What
              > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
              live?
              > > >
              > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
              > Rand,
              > > > > surely a very
              > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
              > > > > generation?) I sometimes
              > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
              with
              > > the
              > > > > imprisonment.
              > > > >
              > > > > Ram
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
              > > Cannon
              > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
              prosecution,
              > > but
              > > > > I
              > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
              > pardoned
              > > > > him.
              > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
              > in
              > > > > 1920,
              > > > > > though he was still in jail.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
              > the
              > > > > use
              > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
              of
              > > Emma
              > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
              she
              > > was
              > > > > not
              > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
              > > Union
              > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
              > > allowed
              > > > > to
              > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
              > > speeches
              > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
              > Thousands
              > > > > were
              > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
              > that
              > > > > her
              > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
              > > > > general
              > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
              > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
              a
              > > > > > > political
              > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
              I'm
              > > > > curious
              > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
              > that
              > > > > Deb's
              > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
              an
              > > > > attempt
              > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
              > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
              > the
              > > > > last
              > > > > > > to
              > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
              > the
              > > > > fact
              > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
              > > > > immediately
              > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
              > > astounding.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Tom Johnson
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
              > > > > equality
              > > > > > > that the original
              > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
              > superb
              > > > > > > Supreme
              > > > > > > Court Chief
              > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
              > what
              > > > > kind
              > > > > > > of
              > > > > > > Justice Bush or
              > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
              > only
              > > > > > > bother
              > > > > > > God when
              > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
              > > never
              > > > > > > happen to mankind.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
              > The
              > > > > > > Democratic Party for
              > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
              > > > > elements
              > > > > > > that Woodrow
              > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
              embraced,
              > > > > while
              > > > > > > the
              > > > > > > Republican Party
              > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
              > > > > something
              > > > > > > totally different
              > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
              transcript
              > > of
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > BookTV interview
              > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
              > > > > > > Roosevelt,
              > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
              > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
              > very
              > > > > > > readable book:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Ram
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
              > THOMAS
              > > > > > > JOHNSON
              > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              > > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
              > > responses
              > > > > and
              > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
              > > > > entertained
              > > > > > > the
              > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
              > was
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > most
              > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
              > was
              > > > > born
              > > > > > > into
              > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
              > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
              party
              > > > > > > machinery
              > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
              Republican
              > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
              a
              > > > > puppet
              > > > > > > of
              > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
              > > reading
              > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
              > > > > trust-busting. He
              > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
              > > > > post-presidency,
              > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
              Court.
              > I
              > > > > also
              > > > > > > find
              > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
              been
              > > > > close
              > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
              > > successor),
              > > > > and
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
              > together
              > > > > > > before
              > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
              that
              > in
              > >
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > 1912
              > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
              > > > > 'congenital
              > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
              > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
              > > Anthony
              > > > > > > Cspan
              > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
              > > that
              > > > > Ram
              > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
              > that
              > > > > she
              > > > > > > was
              > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
              > see
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > whole
              > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
              > > interview,
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > Debs
              > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
              I'm
              > > > > > > learning
              > > > > > > a
              > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
              wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
              though
              > > I'd
              > > > > also
              > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
              anyone
              > > here
              > > > > > > have
              > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
              > with
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > Taft
              > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
              > I'm
              > > > > > > reading
              > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
              Teddy
              > > > > began
              > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
              > taking
              > > > > Taft
              > > > > > > into
              > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
              1905
              > > > > though
              > > > > > > > probably earlier.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
              > > prosecutions
              > > > > of
              > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
              > first
              > > > > term,
              > > > > > > but
              > > > >
              > > > === message truncated ===
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
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