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Re: [prezveepsenator] Re: An email I sent to DailyKos.com

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  • Greg Cannon
    I have vague knowledge of Rand s writings and philosophy. I think they both believed in what they thought of as libertarianism, but had very different views on
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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      I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
      philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
      thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
      views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
      nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
      were socialist and communist, though she'd always
      disagree with them on many things. I think the main
      thing they agreed on was that private property should
      be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
      would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
      on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
      delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
      condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
      control devices like that weren't legal at the time.

      I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
      as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
      was she like? For that matter, when did she live?

      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

      > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
      > surely a very
      > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
      > generation?) I sometimes
      > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
      > imprisonment.
      >
      > Ram
      >
      >
      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
      > <gregcannon1@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
      > I
      > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
      > him.
      > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
      > 1920,
      > > though he was still in jail.
      > >
      > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
      > use
      > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
      > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
      > not
      > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
      > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
      > to
      > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
      > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
      > were
      > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
      > her
      > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
      > general
      > > than at Wilson himself.
      > >
      > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
      > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
      > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
      > > > political
      > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
      > curious
      > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
      > Deb's
      > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
      > attempt
      > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
      > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
      > last
      > > > to
      > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
      > fact
      > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
      > immediately
      > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
      > > >
      > > > Tom Johnson
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
      > equality
      > > > that the original
      > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
      > > > Supreme
      > > > Court Chief
      > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
      > kind
      > > > of
      > > > Justice Bush or
      > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
      > > > bother
      > > > God when
      > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
      > > > happen to mankind.
      > > >
      > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
      > > > Democratic Party for
      > > > the first time experienced the progressive
      > elements
      > > > that Woodrow
      > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
      > while
      > > > the
      > > > Republican Party
      > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
      > something
      > > > totally different
      > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
      > the
      > > > BookTV interview
      > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
      > > > Roosevelt,
      > > > Taft, and Debs -
      > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
      > > > readable book:
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
      > > >
      > > > Ram
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
      > > > JOHNSON
      > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
      > and
      > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
      > entertained
      > > > the
      > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
      > the
      > > > most
      > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
      > born
      > > > into
      > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
      > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
      > > > machinery
      > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
      > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
      > puppet
      > > > of
      > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
      > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
      > trust-busting. He
      > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
      > post-presidency,
      > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
      > also
      > > > find
      > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
      > close
      > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
      > and
      > > >
      > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
      > > > before
      > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
      > the
      > > > 1912
      > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
      > 'congenital
      > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
      > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
      > > > Cspan
      > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
      > Ram
      > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
      > she
      > > > was
      > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
      > the
      > > > whole
      > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
      > the
      > > > Debs
      > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
      > > > learning
      > > > a
      > > > > lot form you guys.
      > > > >
      > > > > Tom Johnson
      > > > >
      > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
      > also
      > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
      > > > have
      > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
      > the
      > > > Taft
      > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
      > > > reading
      > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
      > began
      > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
      > Taft
      > > > into
      > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
      > though
      > > > > probably earlier.
      > > > >
      > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
      > of
      > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
      > term,
      > > > but
      >
      === message truncated ===
    • Ram Lau
      Greg, Rand has plenty of fans. They ve even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in her name a decade ago: http://www.aynrand.org/ She s the Milton Friedman of her
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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        Greg,

        Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in
        her name a decade ago:

        http://www.aynrand.org/

        She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

        "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of reason, rational
        self-interest, individual rights and free-market capitalism.

        ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a "cultural
        renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason, anti-individualism,
        anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's culture. The major
        battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism is the
        educational institutions—high schools, and above all, the
        universities, where students learn the ideas that shape their lives.

        Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that historical
        trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To reverse the
        current political and economic trends in America and throughout the
        world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental philosophy."

        Ram


        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
        wrote:
        > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
        > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
        > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
        > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
        > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
        > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
        > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
        > thing they agreed on was that private property should
        > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
        > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
        > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
        > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
        > condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
        > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
        >
        > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
        > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
        > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
        >
        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
        > > surely a very
        > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
        > > generation?) I sometimes
        > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
        > > imprisonment.
        > >
        > > Ram
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
        > > <gregcannon1@y...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
        > > I
        > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
        > > him.
        > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
        > > 1920,
        > > > though he was still in jail.
        > > >
        > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
        > > use
        > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
        > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
        > > not
        > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
        > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
        > > to
        > > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
        > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
        > > were
        > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
        > > her
        > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
        > > general
        > > > than at Wilson himself.
        > > >
        > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
        > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
        > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
        > > > > political
        > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
        > > curious
        > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
        > > Deb's
        > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
        > > attempt
        > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
        > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
        > > last
        > > > > to
        > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
        > > fact
        > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
        > > immediately
        > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
        > > > >
        > > > > Tom Johnson
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
        > > equality
        > > > > that the original
        > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
        > > > > Supreme
        > > > > Court Chief
        > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
        > > kind
        > > > > of
        > > > > Justice Bush or
        > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
        > > > > bother
        > > > > God when
        > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
        > > > > happen to mankind.
        > > > >
        > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
        > > > > Democratic Party for
        > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
        > > elements
        > > > > that Woodrow
        > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
        > > while
        > > > > the
        > > > > Republican Party
        > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
        > > something
        > > > > totally different
        > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
        > > the
        > > > > BookTV interview
        > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
        > > > > Roosevelt,
        > > > > Taft, and Debs -
        > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
        > > > > readable book:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
        > > > >
        > > > > Ram
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
        > > > > JOHNSON
        > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
        > > and
        > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
        > > entertained
        > > > > the
        > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
        > > the
        > > > > most
        > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
        > > born
        > > > > into
        > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
        > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
        > > > > machinery
        > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
        > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
        > > puppet
        > > > > of
        > > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
        > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
        > > trust-busting. He
        > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
        > > post-presidency,
        > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
        > > also
        > > > > find
        > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
        > > close
        > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
        > > and
        > > > >
        > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
        > > > > before
        > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
        > > the
        > > > > 1912
        > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
        > > 'congenital
        > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
        > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
        > > > > Cspan
        > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
        > > Ram
        > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
        > > she
        > > > > was
        > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
        > > the
        > > > > whole
        > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
        > > the
        > > > > Debs
        > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
        > > > > learning
        > > > > a
        > > > > > lot form you guys.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Tom Johnson
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
        > > also
        > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
        > > > > have
        > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
        > > the
        > > > > Taft
        > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
        > > > > reading
        > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
        > > began
        > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
        > > Taft
        > > > > into
        > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
        > > though
        > > > > > probably earlier.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
        > > of
        > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
        > > term,
        > > > > but
        > >
        > === message truncated ===
      • THOMAS JOHNSON
        While reading about the Harding administration and the Teapot Dome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I became re-acquainted with Fightin
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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          While reading about the Harding administration and
          the Teapot Dome
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
          became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
          who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
          Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
          the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
          LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
          committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
          Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
          imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
          administration.
          Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
          the Iran-Contra scandal
          ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
          administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
          with disastrous results reverberating even today.
          Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
          to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
          penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
          according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
          primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
          Iran-Contra in the first place.
          In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
          term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
          11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
          Leadership Survey
          http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
          comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
          Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
          How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
          had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.

          Tom Johnson
          --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          Greg,

          Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
          Rand Institute in
          her name a decade ago:

          http://www.aynrand.org/

          She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

          "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
          reason, rational
          self-interest, individual rights and free-market
          capitalism.

          ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
          "cultural
          renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
          anti-individualism,
          anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
          culture. The major
          battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
          is the
          educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
          the
          universities, where students learn the ideas that
          shape their lives.

          Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
          historical
          trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
          reverse the
          current political and economic trends in America and
          throughout the
          world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
          philosophy."

          Ram


          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
          <gregcannon1@y...>
          wrote:
          > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
          > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
          > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
          > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
          were
          > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
          > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
          > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
          > thing they agreed on was that private property
          should
          > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
          Rand
          > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
          them
          > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
          She
          > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
          > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
          birth
          > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
          >
          > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
          she
          > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
          > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
          >
          > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
          > > surely a very
          > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
          > > generation?) I sometimes
          > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
          the
          > > imprisonment.
          > >
          > > Ram
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
          Cannon
          > > <gregcannon1@y...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
          but
          > > I
          > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
          > > him.
          > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
          > > 1920,
          > > > though he was still in jail.
          > > >
          > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
          > > use
          > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
          Emma
          > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
          was
          > > not
          > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
          Union
          > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
          allowed
          > > to
          > > > return to America, all because she'd made
          speeches
          > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
          > > were
          > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
          > > her
          > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
          > > general
          > > > than at Wilson himself.
          > > >
          > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
          > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
          > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
          > > > > political
          > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
          > > curious
          > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
          > > Deb's
          > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
          > > attempt
          > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
          > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
          > > last
          > > > > to
          > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
          > > fact
          > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
          > > immediately
          > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
          astounding.
          > > > >
          > > > > Tom Johnson
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
          > > equality
          > > > > that the original
          > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
          > > > > Supreme
          > > > > Court Chief
          > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
          > > kind
          > > > > of
          > > > > Justice Bush or
          > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
          > > > > bother
          > > > > God when
          > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
          never
          > > > > happen to mankind.
          > > > >
          > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
          > > > > Democratic Party for
          > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
          > > elements
          > > > > that Woodrow
          > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
          > > while
          > > > > the
          > > > > Republican Party
          > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
          > > something
          > > > > totally different
          > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
          of
          > > the
          > > > > BookTV interview
          > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
          > > > > Roosevelt,
          > > > > Taft, and Debs -
          > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
          > > > > readable book:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
          > > > >
          > > > > Ram
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
          > > > > JOHNSON
          > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
          responses
          > > and
          > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
          > > entertained
          > > > > the
          > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
          > > the
          > > > > most
          > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
          > > born
          > > > > into
          > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
          > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
          > > > > machinery
          > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
          > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
          > > puppet
          > > > > of
          > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
          reading
          > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
          > > trust-busting. He
          > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
          > > post-presidency,
          > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
          > > also
          > > > > find
          > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
          > > close
          > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
          successor),
          > > and
          > > > >
          > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
          > > > > before
          > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in

          > > the
          > > > > 1912
          > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
          > > 'congenital
          > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
          > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
          Anthony
          > > > > Cspan
          > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
          that
          > > Ram
          > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
          > > she
          > > > > was
          > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
          > > the
          > > > > whole
          > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
          interview,
          > > the
          > > > > Debs
          > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
          > > > > learning
          > > > > a
          > > > > > lot form you guys.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Tom Johnson
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
          I'd
          > > also
          > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
          here
          > > > > have
          > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
          > > the
          > > > > Taft
          > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
          > > > > reading
          > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
          > > began
          > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
          > > Taft
          > > > > into
          > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
          > > though
          > > > > > probably earlier.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
          prosecutions
          > > of
          > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
          > > term,
          > > > > but
          > >
          > === message truncated ===




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        • Greg Cannon
          I ve also been reading about LaFollette. Here s an interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is from
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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            I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
            interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
            Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
            from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
            Senator.

            One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
            influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
            night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
            as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
            been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
            thought that the President might listen to him on the
            subject.
            "But you can't get any such bill as that through
            Congress."
            "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
            President."
            A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
            the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
            seeing, did not understand that it was already
            unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
            "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
            said.

            --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

            > While reading about the Harding administration and
            > the Teapot Dome
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
            > I
            > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
            >
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
            > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
            > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
            > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
            > Republican
            > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
            > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
            > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
            > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
            > administration.
          • Ram Lau
            Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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              Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
              Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
              See below for details:

              Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
              Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
              7/3/2005

              Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
              founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
              died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

              Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
              death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
              Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

              Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
              joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
              U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
              and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
              issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
              go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

              Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
              as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
              (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
              becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
              the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

              An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
              laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
              Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
              Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
              Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
              April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

              He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
              aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
              Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
              establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
              legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
              Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
              Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

              Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
              hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
              Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
              accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
              as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
              attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
              citizens a right to a clean environment.

              Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
              were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
              program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
              $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
              package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
              program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

              Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
              and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

              He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
              discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
              When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
              issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
              college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
              the Vietnam War.

              On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
              of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
              promoting a cleaner Earth.

              Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
              schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
              estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
              countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
              activities, organizers said.

              Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
              player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
              and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
              issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
              abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

              He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
              an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
              the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
              Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
              President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
              war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
              appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
              I need my conscience."

              The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
              1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
              Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
              M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
              Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

              He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
              degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
              Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
              troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
              lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
              in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
              the state's National Guard.

              Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
              Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
              see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
              stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
              Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

              Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
              nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
              Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
              and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
              Wisconsin all are named for him.

              When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
              environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
              figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
              Roosevelt.

              The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
              experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
              Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
              naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
              Lloyd Wright.

              Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
              wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
              Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
              four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

              Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
              will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

              The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
              Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
              Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
              Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
              the Wilderness Society.


              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
              wrote:
              > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
              > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
              > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
              > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
              > Senator.
              >
              > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
              > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
              > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
              > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
              > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
              > thought that the President might listen to him on the
              > subject.
              > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
              > Congress."
              > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
              > President."
              > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
              > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
              > seeing, did not understand that it was already
              > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
              > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
              > said.
              >
              > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              >
              > > While reading about the Harding administration and
              > > the Teapot Dome
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
              > > I
              > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
              > >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
              > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
              > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
              > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
              > > Republican
              > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
              > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
              > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
              > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
              > > administration.
            • Ram Lau
              Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
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                Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
                on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
                deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
                real reason for the deficit spending.

                The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
                most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
                disrespect.

                Ram


                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                wrote:
                > While reading about the Harding administration and
                > the Teapot Dome
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                > administration.
                > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                > the Iran-Contra scandal
                > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                > Leadership Survey
                > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
                >
                > Tom Johnson
                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Greg,
                >
                > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                > Rand Institute in
                > her name a decade ago:
                >
                > http://www.aynrand.org/
                >
                > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                >
                > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                > reason, rational
                > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                > capitalism.
                >
                > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                > "cultural
                > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                > anti-individualism,
                > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                > culture. The major
                > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                > is the
                > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                > the
                > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                > shape their lives.
                >
                > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                > historical
                > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                > reverse the
                > current political and economic trends in America and
                > throughout the
                > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                > philosophy."
                >
                > Ram
                >
                >
                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                > <gregcannon1@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                > were
                > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                > should
                > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                > Rand
                > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                > them
                > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                > She
                > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                > birth
                > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                > >
                > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                > she
                > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                > >
                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                > > > surely a very
                > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                > > > generation?) I sometimes
                > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                > the
                > > > imprisonment.
                > > >
                > > > Ram
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                > Cannon
                > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                > but
                > > > I
                > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                > > > him.
                > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                > > > 1920,
                > > > > though he was still in jail.
                > > > >
                > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                > > > use
                > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                > Emma
                > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                > was
                > > > not
                > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                > Union
                > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                > allowed
                > > > to
                > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                > speeches
                > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                > > > were
                > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                > > > her
                > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                > > > general
                > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                > > > >
                > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                > > > > > political
                > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                > > > curious
                > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                > > > Deb's
                > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                > > > attempt
                > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                > > > last
                > > > > > to
                > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                > > > fact
                > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                > > > immediately
                > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                > astounding.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Tom Johnson
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                > > > equality
                > > > > > that the original
                > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                > > > > > Supreme
                > > > > > Court Chief
                > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                > > > kind
                > > > > > of
                > > > > > Justice Bush or
                > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                > > > > > bother
                > > > > > God when
                > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                > never
                > > > > > happen to mankind.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                > > > > > Democratic Party for
                > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                > > > elements
                > > > > > that Woodrow
                > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                > > > while
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > Republican Party
                > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                > > > something
                > > > > > totally different
                > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                > of
                > > > the
                > > > > > BookTV interview
                > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                > > > > > Roosevelt,
                > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                > > > > > readable book:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Ram
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                > > > > > JOHNSON
                > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                > responses
                > > > and
                > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                > > > entertained
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                > > > the
                > > > > > most
                > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                > > > born
                > > > > > into
                > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                > > > > > machinery
                > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                > > > puppet
                > > > > > of
                > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                > reading
                > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                > > > trust-busting. He
                > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                > > > post-presidency,
                > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                > > > also
                > > > > > find
                > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                > > > close
                > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                > successor),
                > > > and
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                > > > > > before
                > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                >
                > > > the
                > > > > > 1912
                > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                > > > 'congenital
                > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                > Anthony
                > > > > > Cspan
                > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                > that
                > > > Ram
                > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                > > > she
                > > > > > was
                > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                > > > the
                > > > > > whole
                > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                > interview,
                > > > the
                > > > > > Debs
                > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                > > > > > learning
                > > > > > a
                > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                > I'd
                > > > also
                > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                > here
                > > > > > have
                > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                > > > the
                > > > > > Taft
                > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                > > > > > reading
                > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                > > > began
                > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                > > > Taft
                > > > > > into
                > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                > > > though
                > > > > > > probably earlier.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                > prosecutions
                > > > of
                > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                > > > term,
                > > > > > but
                > > >
                > > === message truncated ===
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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              • THOMAS JOHNSON
                Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
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                  Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                  totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                  Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                  replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                  passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                  did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                  expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                  Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                  going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                  "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                  Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                  un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                  he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




                  --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                  ---------------------------------
                  Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                  begin my judgement
                  on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                  his 8 consecutive
                  deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                  spending were not the
                  real reason for the deficit spending.

                  The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                  differently, and will
                  most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                  contempt and
                  disrespect.

                  Ram


                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                  <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                  wrote:
                  > While reading about the Harding administration and
                  > the Teapot Dome
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                  I
                  > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                  >
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                  > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                  > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                  > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                  Republican
                  > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                  > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                  > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                  > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                  > administration.
                  > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                  and
                  > the Iran-Contra scandal
                  > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                  > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                  > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                  > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                  immunity
                  > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                  re
                  > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                  > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                  > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                  pursuing
                  > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                  > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                  long
                  > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                  the
                  > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                  Presidential
                  > Leadership Survey
                  >
                  http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                  > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                  > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                  > How different things might have been if Bob
                  LaFollette
                  > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                  not.
                  >
                  > Tom Johnson
                  > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Greg,
                  >
                  > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                  > Rand Institute in
                  > her name a decade ago:
                  >
                  > http://www.aynrand.org/
                  >
                  > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                  >
                  > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                  > reason, rational
                  > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                  > capitalism.
                  >
                  > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                  a
                  > "cultural
                  > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                  > anti-individualism,
                  > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                  > culture. The major
                  > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                  > is the
                  > educational institutions—high schools, and above
                  all,
                  > the
                  > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                  > shape their lives.
                  >
                  > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
                  that
                  > historical
                  > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                  > reverse the
                  > current political and economic trends in America and
                  > throughout the
                  > world requires a reversal of our society's
                  fundamental
                  > philosophy."
                  >
                  > Ram
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                  > <gregcannon1@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                  > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                  they
                  > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                  different
                  > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                  > were
                  > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                  who
                  > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                  > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                  main
                  > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                  > should
                  > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                  > Rand
                  > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                  > them
                  > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                  > She
                  > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                  apparently
                  > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                  > birth
                  > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                  time.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                  > she
                  > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                  What
                  > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                  > >
                  > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                  Rand,
                  > > > surely a very
                  > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                  > > > generation?) I sometimes
                  > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                  > the
                  > > > imprisonment.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ram
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                  > Cannon
                  > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                  > but
                  > > > I
                  > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                  pardoned
                  > > > him.
                  > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                  in
                  > > > 1920,
                  > > > > though he was still in jail.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                  the
                  > > > use
                  > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                  > Emma
                  > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                  > was
                  > > > not
                  > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                  > Union
                  > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                  > allowed
                  > > > to
                  > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                  > speeches
                  > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                  Thousands
                  > > > were
                  > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                  that
                  > > > her
                  > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                  > > > general
                  > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                  > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                  > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                  > > > > > political
                  > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                  > > > curious
                  > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                  that
                  > > > Deb's
                  > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                  > > > attempt
                  > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                  > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                  the
                  > > > last
                  > > > > > to
                  > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                  the
                  > > > fact
                  > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                  > > > immediately
                  > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                  > astounding.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Tom Johnson
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                  > > > equality
                  > > > > > that the original
                  > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                  superb
                  > > > > > Supreme
                  > > > > > Court Chief
                  > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                  what
                  > > > kind
                  > > > > > of
                  > > > > > Justice Bush or
                  > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                  only
                  > > > > > bother
                  > > > > > God when
                  > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                  > never
                  > > > > > happen to mankind.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                  The
                  > > > > > Democratic Party for
                  > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                  > > > elements
                  > > > > > that Woodrow
                  > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                  > > > while
                  > > > > > the
                  > > > > > Republican Party
                  > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                  > > > something
                  > > > > > totally different
                  > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                  > of
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > BookTV interview
                  > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                  > > > > > Roosevelt,
                  > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                  > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                  very
                  > > > > > readable book:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Ram
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                  THOMAS
                  > > > > > JOHNSON
                  > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                  > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                  > responses
                  > > > and
                  > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                  > > > entertained
                  > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                  was
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > most
                  > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                  was
                  > > > born
                  > > > > > into
                  > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                  > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                  > > > > > machinery
                  > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                  > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                  > > > puppet
                  > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                  > reading
                  > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                  > > > trust-busting. He
                  > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                  > > > post-presidency,
                  > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                  I
                  > > > also
                  > > > > > find
                  > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                  > > > close
                  > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                  > successor),
                  > > > and
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                  together
                  > > > > > before
                  > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                  in
                  >
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > 1912
                  > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                  > > > 'congenital
                  > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                  > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                  > Anthony
                  > > > > > Cspan
                  > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                  > that
                  > > > Ram
                  > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                  that
                  > > > she
                  > > > > > was
                  > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                  see
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > whole
                  > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                  > interview,
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > Debs
                  > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                  > > > > > learning
                  > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                  > I'd
                  > > > also
                  > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                  > here
                  > > > > > have
                  > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                  with
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > Taft
                  > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                  I'm
                  > > > > > reading
                  > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                  > > > began
                  > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                  taking
                  > > > Taft
                  > > > > > into
                  > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                  > > > though
                  > > > > > > probably earlier.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                  > prosecutions
                  > > > of
                  > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                  first
                  > > > term,
                  > > > > > but
                  > > >
                  > > === message truncated ===
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
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                  >
                  > ---------------------------------




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                  ---------------------------------
                • Ram Lau
                  Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                    Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
                    Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

                    His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
                    how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
                    the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
                    conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
                    driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

                    Ram


                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                    wrote:
                    > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                    > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                    > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                    > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                    > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                    > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                    > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                    > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                    > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                    > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                    > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                    > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                    > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                    > begin my judgement
                    > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                    > his 8 consecutive
                    > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                    > spending were not the
                    > real reason for the deficit spending.
                    >
                    > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                    > differently, and will
                    > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                    > contempt and
                    > disrespect.
                    >
                    > Ram
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                    > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                    > > the Teapot Dome
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                    > I
                    > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                    > >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                    > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                    > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                    > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                    > Republican
                    > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                    > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                    > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                    > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                    > > administration.
                    > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                    > and
                    > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                    > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                    > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                    > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                    > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                    > immunity
                    > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                    > re
                    > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                    > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                    > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                    > pursuing
                    > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                    > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                    > long
                    > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                    > the
                    > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                    > Presidential
                    > > Leadership Survey
                    > >
                    > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                    > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                    > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                    > > How different things might have been if Bob
                    > LaFollette
                    > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                    > not.
                    > >
                    > > Tom Johnson
                    > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > Greg,
                    > >
                    > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                    > > Rand Institute in
                    > > her name a decade ago:
                    > >
                    > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                    > >
                    > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                    > >
                    > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                    > > reason, rational
                    > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                    > > capitalism.
                    > >
                    > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                    > a
                    > > "cultural
                    > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                    > > anti-individualism,
                    > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                    > > culture. The major
                    > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                    > > is the
                    > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                    > all,
                    > > the
                    > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                    > > shape their lives.
                    > >
                    > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
                    > that
                    > > historical
                    > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                    > > reverse the
                    > > current political and economic trends in America and
                    > > throughout the
                    > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                    > fundamental
                    > > philosophy."
                    > >
                    > > Ram
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                    > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                    > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                    > they
                    > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                    > different
                    > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                    > > were
                    > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                    > who
                    > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                    > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                    > main
                    > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                    > > should
                    > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                    > > Rand
                    > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                    > > them
                    > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                    > > She
                    > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                    > apparently
                    > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                    > > birth
                    > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                    > time.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                    > > she
                    > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                    > What
                    > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                    > > >
                    > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                    > Rand,
                    > > > > surely a very
                    > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                    > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                    > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                    > > the
                    > > > > imprisonment.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ram
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                    > > Cannon
                    > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                    > > but
                    > > > > I
                    > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                    > pardoned
                    > > > > him.
                    > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                    > in
                    > > > > 1920,
                    > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                    > the
                    > > > > use
                    > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                    > > Emma
                    > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                    > > was
                    > > > > not
                    > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                    > > Union
                    > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                    > > allowed
                    > > > > to
                    > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                    > > speeches
                    > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                    > Thousands
                    > > > > were
                    > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                    > that
                    > > > > her
                    > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                    > > > > general
                    > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                    > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                    > > > > > > political
                    > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                    > > > > curious
                    > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                    > that
                    > > > > Deb's
                    > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                    > > > > attempt
                    > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                    > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                    > the
                    > > > > last
                    > > > > > > to
                    > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                    > the
                    > > > > fact
                    > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                    > > > > immediately
                    > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                    > > astounding.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                    > > > > equality
                    > > > > > > that the original
                    > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                    > superb
                    > > > > > > Supreme
                    > > > > > > Court Chief
                    > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                    > what
                    > > > > kind
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                    > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                    > only
                    > > > > > > bother
                    > > > > > > God when
                    > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                    > > never
                    > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                    > The
                    > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                    > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                    > > > > elements
                    > > > > > > that Woodrow
                    > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                    > > > > while
                    > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > Republican Party
                    > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                    > > > > something
                    > > > > > > totally different
                    > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                    > > of
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > BookTV interview
                    > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                    > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                    > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                    > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                    > very
                    > > > > > > readable book:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Ram
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                    > THOMAS
                    > > > > > > JOHNSON
                    > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                    > > responses
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                    > > > > entertained
                    > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                    > was
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > most
                    > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                    > was
                    > > > > born
                    > > > > > > into
                    > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                    > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                    > > > > > > machinery
                    > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                    > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                    > > > > puppet
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                    > > reading
                    > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                    > > > > trust-busting. He
                    > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                    > > > > post-presidency,
                    > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                    > I
                    > > > > also
                    > > > > > > find
                    > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                    > > > > close
                    > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                    > > successor),
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                    > together
                    > > > > > > before
                    > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                    > in
                    > >
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > 1912
                    > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                    > > > > 'congenital
                    > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                    > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                    > > Anthony
                    > > > > > > Cspan
                    > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                    > > that
                    > > > > Ram
                    > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                    > that
                    > > > > she
                    > > > > > > was
                    > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                    > see
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > whole
                    > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                    > > interview,
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > Debs
                    > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                    > > > > > > learning
                    > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                    > > I'd
                    > > > > also
                    > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                    > > here
                    > > > > > > have
                    > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                    > with
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > Taft
                    > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                    > I'm
                    > > > > > > reading
                    > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                    > > > > began
                    > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                    > taking
                    > > > > Taft
                    > > > > > > into
                    > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                    > > > > though
                    > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                    > > prosecutions
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                    > first
                    > > > > term,
                    > > > > > > but
                    > > > >
                    > > > === message truncated ===
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > to:
                    > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    > ---------------------------------
                  • THOMAS JOHNSON
                    Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
                      In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
                      did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
                      the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
                      Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
                      Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
                      internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
                      inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
                      the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
                      Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
                      Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
                      that increased American military spending by 8% per
                      annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
                      effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
                      growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
                      spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
                      annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
                      rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
                      1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
                      continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
                      returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
                      out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
                      were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
                      Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
                      the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
                      in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

                      That didn't help.

                      Tom


                      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                      ---------------------------------
                      Princess David! He probably said that in his second
                      term? His
                      Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
                      years.

                      His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
                      book confessing
                      how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
                      economics had damage
                      the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
                      true
                      conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
                      as immoral as
                      driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
                      generations.

                      Ram


                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                      <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      wrote:
                      > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
                      pols
                      > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                      > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                      > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                      > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
                      what
                      > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                      > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                      > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
                      Africa,
                      > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                      > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                      > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                      > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
                      where
                      > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                      > begin my judgement
                      > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                      > his 8 consecutive
                      > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                      > spending were not the
                      > real reason for the deficit spending.
                      >
                      > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                      > differently, and will
                      > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                      > contempt and
                      > disrespect.
                      >
                      > Ram
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                      JOHNSON
                      > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > While reading about the Harding administration
                      and
                      > > the Teapot Dome
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
                      scandal,
                      > I
                      > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                      > >
                      >
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                      > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
                      in
                      > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
                      and
                      > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                      > Republican
                      > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                      > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
                      man.
                      > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                      > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                      > > administration.
                      > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                      > and
                      > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                      > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                      > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                      > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                      > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                      > immunity
                      > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                      > re
                      > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
                      Clinton,
                      > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
                      R-Cal,
                      > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                      > pursuing
                      > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                      > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                      > long
                      > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                      > the
                      > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                      > Presidential
                      > > Leadership Survey
                      > >
                      >
                      http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                      > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
                      and
                      > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                      > > How different things might have been if Bob
                      > LaFollette
                      > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                      > not.
                      > >
                      > > Tom Johnson
                      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Greg,
                      > >
                      > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
                      Ayn
                      > > Rand Institute in
                      > > her name a decade ago:
                      > >
                      > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                      > >
                      > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                      > >
                      > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                      > > reason, rational
                      > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                      > > capitalism.
                      > >
                      > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
                      spearheading
                      > a
                      > > "cultural
                      > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                      > > anti-individualism,
                      > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                      > > culture. The major
                      > > battleground in this fight for reason and
                      capitalism
                      > > is the
                      > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                      > all,
                      > > the
                      > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                      > > shape their lives.
                      > >
                      > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
                      Objectivism�holds
                      > that
                      > > historical
                      > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
                      To
                      > > reverse the
                      > > current political and economic trends in America
                      and
                      > > throughout the
                      > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                      > fundamental
                      > > philosophy."
                      > >
                      > > Ram
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                      Cannon
                      > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                      > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                      > they
                      > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                      > different
                      > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                      > > were
                      > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                      > who
                      > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
                      always
                      > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                      > main
                      > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                      > > should
                      > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                      > > Rand
                      > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                      > > them
                      > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
                      control.
                      > > She
                      > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                      > apparently
                      > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                      > > birth
                      > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                      > time.
                      > > >
                      > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
                      Was
                      > > she
                      > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                      > What
                      > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
                      live?
                      > > >
                      > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                      > Rand,
                      > > > > surely a very
                      > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                      > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                      > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
                      with
                      > > the
                      > > > > imprisonment.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ram
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                      > > Cannon
                      > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
                      prosecution,
                      > > but
                      > > > > I
                      > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                      > pardoned
                      > > > > him.
                      > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                      > in
                      > > > > 1920,
                      > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                      > the
                      > > > > use
                      > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
                      of
                      > > Emma
                      > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
                      she
                      > > was
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                      > > Union
                      > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                      > > allowed
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                      > > speeches
                      > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                      > Thousands
                      > > > > were
                      > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                      > that
                      > > > > her
                      > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                      > > > > general
                      > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                      > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
                      a
                      > > > > > > political
                      > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
                      I'm
                      > > > > curious
                      > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                      > that
                      > > > > Deb's
                      > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
                      an
                      > > > > attempt
                      > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                      > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                      > the
                      > > > > last
                      > > > > > > to
                      > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                      > the
                      > > > > fact
                      > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                      > > > > immediately
                      > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                      > > astounding.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                      > > > > equality
                      > > > > > > that the original
                      > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                      > superb
                      > > > > > > Supreme
                      > > > > > > Court Chief
                      > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                      > what
                      > > > > kind
                      > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                      > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                      > only
                      > > > > > > bother
                      > > > > > > God when
                      > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                      > > never
                      > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                      > The
                      > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                      > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                      > > > > elements
                      > > > > > > that Woodrow
                      > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
                      embraced,
                      > > > > while
                      > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > Republican Party
                      > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                      > > > > something
                      > > > > > > totally different
                      > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
                      transcript
                      > > of
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > BookTV interview
                      > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                      > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                      > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                      > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                      > very
                      > > > > > > readable book:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Ram
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                      > THOMAS
                      > > > > > > JOHNSON
                      > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                      > > responses
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                      > > > > entertained
                      > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                      > was
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > most
                      > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                      > was
                      > > > > born
                      > > > > > > into
                      > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                      > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
                      party
                      > > > > > > machinery
                      > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
                      Republican
                      > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
                      a
                      > > > > puppet
                      > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                      > > reading
                      > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                      > > > > trust-busting. He
                      > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                      > > > > post-presidency,
                      > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
                      Court.
                      > I
                      > > > > also
                      > > > > > > find
                      > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
                      been
                      > > > > close
                      > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                      > > successor),
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                      > together
                      > > > > > > before
                      > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
                      that
                      > in
                      > >
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > 1912
                      > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                      > > > > 'congenital
                      > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                      > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                      > > Anthony
                      > > > > > > Cspan
                      > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                      > > that
                      > > > > Ram
                      > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                      > that
                      > > > > she
                      > > > > > > was
                      > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                      > see
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > whole
                      > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                      > > interview,
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > Debs
                      > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
                      I'm
                      > > > > > > learning
                      > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
                      though
                      > > I'd
                      > > > > also
                      > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
                      anyone
                      > > here
                      > > > > > > have
                      > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                      > with
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > Taft
                      > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                      > I'm
                      > > > > > > reading
                      > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
                      Teddy
                      > > > > began
                      > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                      > taking
                      > > > > Taft
                      > > > > > > into
                      > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
                      1905
                      > > > > though
                      > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                      > > prosecutions
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                      > first
                      > > > > term,
                      > > > > > > but
                      > > > >
                      > > > === message truncated ===
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
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