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Re: [prezveepsenator] Re: An email I sent to DailyKos.com

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  • Greg Cannon
    I don t know the details of Debs prosecution, but I recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him. And Debs did still get about a million votes in
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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      I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
      recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
      And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
      though he was still in jail.

      The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
      of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
      Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
      only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
      (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
      return to America, all because she'd made speeches
      against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
      deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
      anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
      than at Wilson himself.

      --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
      > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
      > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
      > political
      > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
      > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
      > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
      > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
      > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
      > to
      > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
      > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
      > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
      >
      > Tom Johnson
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
      > that the original
      > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
      > Supreme
      > Court Chief
      > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
      > of
      > Justice Bush or
      > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
      > bother
      > God when
      > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
      > happen to mankind.
      >
      > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
      > Democratic Party for
      > the first time experienced the progressive elements
      > that Woodrow
      > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
      > the
      > Republican Party
      > began to turn from a center-left party to something
      > totally different
      > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
      > BookTV interview
      > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
      > Roosevelt,
      > Taft, and Debs -
      > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
      > readable book:
      >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
      >
      > Ram
      >
      >
      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
      > JOHNSON
      > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      > wrote:
      > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
      > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
      > the
      > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
      > most
      > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
      > into
      > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
      > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
      > machinery
      > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
      > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
      > of
      > > big business, but after doing a little reading
      > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
      > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
      > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
      > find
      > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
      > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
      >
      > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
      > before
      > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
      > 1912
      > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
      > > liar' were thrown at each other.
      > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
      > Cspan
      > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
      > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
      > was
      > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
      > whole
      > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
      > Debs
      > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
      > learning
      > a
      > > lot form you guys.
      > >
      > > Tom Johnson
      > >
      > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
      > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
      > have
      > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
      > Taft
      > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
      > reading
      > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
      > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
      > into
      > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
      > > probably earlier.
      > >
      > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
      > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
      > but
      > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
      > and
      > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
      > shops"
      > > among government employees.
      > >
      > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
      > progressive
      > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
      > come
      > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
      > on
      > > the defense.
      > >
      > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
      > and
      > > > am
      > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
      > advances
      > > > that
      > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
      > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
      > least
      > in
      > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
      > the
      > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
      > > > pious,
      > > > pro big business president such as Taft
      > inspired
      > > > the
      > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
      > > > reaction
      > > > could repeat itself a century later.
      > > >
      > > > Tom Johnson
      > > >
      > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
      > far
      > > > then the party's message might become only
      > marketing
      > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
      > At
      > > > the
      > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
      > on
      > > > both
      > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
      > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
      > his
      > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
      > miserably
      > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
      > to
      >
      === message truncated ===
    • Ram Lau
      Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes wonder if the Red Scare had
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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        Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very
        different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes
        wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the imprisonment.

        Ram


        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
        wrote:
        > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
        > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
        > And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
        > though he was still in jail.
        >
        > The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
        > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
        > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
        > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
        > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
        > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
        > against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
        > deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
        > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
        > than at Wilson himself.
        >
        > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
        > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
        > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
        > > political
        > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
        > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
        > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
        > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
        > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
        > > to
        > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
        > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
        > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
        > >
        > > Tom Johnson
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
        > > that the original
        > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
        > > Supreme
        > > Court Chief
        > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
        > > of
        > > Justice Bush or
        > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
        > > bother
        > > God when
        > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
        > > happen to mankind.
        > >
        > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
        > > Democratic Party for
        > > the first time experienced the progressive elements
        > > that Woodrow
        > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
        > > the
        > > Republican Party
        > > began to turn from a center-left party to something
        > > totally different
        > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
        > > BookTV interview
        > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
        > > Roosevelt,
        > > Taft, and Debs -
        > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
        > > readable book:
        > >
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
        > >
        > > Ram
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
        > > JOHNSON
        > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
        > > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
        > > the
        > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
        > > most
        > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
        > > into
        > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
        > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
        > > machinery
        > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
        > > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
        > > of
        > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
        > > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
        > > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
        > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
        > > find
        > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
        > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
        > >
        > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
        > > before
        > > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
        > > 1912
        > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
        > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
        > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
        > > Cspan
        > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
        > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
        > > was
        > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
        > > whole
        > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
        > > Debs
        > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
        > > learning
        > > a
        > > > lot form you guys.
        > > >
        > > > Tom Johnson
        > > >
        > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
        > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
        > > have
        > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
        > > Taft
        > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
        > > reading
        > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
        > > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
        > > into
        > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
        > > > probably earlier.
        > > >
        > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
        > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
        > > but
        > > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
        > > and
        > > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
        > > shops"
        > > > among government employees.
        > > >
        > > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
        > > progressive
        > > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
        > > come
        > > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
        > > on
        > > > the defense.
        > > >
        > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
        > > and
        > > > > am
        > > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
        > > advances
        > > > > that
        > > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
        > > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
        > > least
        > > in
        > > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
        > > the
        > > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
        > > > > pious,
        > > > > pro big business president such as Taft
        > > inspired
        > > > > the
        > > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
        > > > > reaction
        > > > > could repeat itself a century later.
        > > > >
        > > > > Tom Johnson
        > > > >
        > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
        > > far
        > > > > then the party's message might become only
        > > marketing
        > > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
        > > At
        > > > > the
        > > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
        > > on
        > > > > both
        > > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
        > > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
        > > his
        > > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
        > > miserably
        > > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
        > > to
        > >
        > === message truncated ===
      • Ram Lau
        I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that progressive era. :-) Ram
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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          I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that
          "progressive" era. :-)

          Ram
        • Greg Cannon
          I have vague knowledge of Rand s writings and philosophy. I think they both believed in what they thought of as libertarianism, but had very different views on
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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            I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
            philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
            thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
            views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
            nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
            were socialist and communist, though she'd always
            disagree with them on many things. I think the main
            thing they agreed on was that private property should
            be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
            would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
            on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
            delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
            condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
            control devices like that weren't legal at the time.

            I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
            as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
            was she like? For that matter, when did she live?

            --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

            > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
            > surely a very
            > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
            > generation?) I sometimes
            > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
            > imprisonment.
            >
            > Ram
            >
            >
            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
            > <gregcannon1@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
            > I
            > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
            > him.
            > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
            > 1920,
            > > though he was still in jail.
            > >
            > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
            > use
            > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
            > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
            > not
            > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
            > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
            > to
            > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
            > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
            > were
            > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
            > her
            > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
            > general
            > > than at Wilson himself.
            > >
            > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
            > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
            > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
            > > > political
            > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
            > curious
            > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
            > Deb's
            > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
            > attempt
            > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
            > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
            > last
            > > > to
            > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
            > fact
            > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
            > immediately
            > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
            > > >
            > > > Tom Johnson
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
            > equality
            > > > that the original
            > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
            > > > Supreme
            > > > Court Chief
            > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
            > kind
            > > > of
            > > > Justice Bush or
            > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
            > > > bother
            > > > God when
            > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
            > > > happen to mankind.
            > > >
            > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
            > > > Democratic Party for
            > > > the first time experienced the progressive
            > elements
            > > > that Woodrow
            > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
            > while
            > > > the
            > > > Republican Party
            > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
            > something
            > > > totally different
            > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
            > the
            > > > BookTV interview
            > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
            > > > Roosevelt,
            > > > Taft, and Debs -
            > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
            > > > readable book:
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
            > > >
            > > > Ram
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
            > > > JOHNSON
            > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
            > and
            > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
            > entertained
            > > > the
            > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
            > the
            > > > most
            > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
            > born
            > > > into
            > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
            > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
            > > > machinery
            > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
            > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
            > puppet
            > > > of
            > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
            > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
            > trust-busting. He
            > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
            > post-presidency,
            > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
            > also
            > > > find
            > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
            > close
            > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
            > and
            > > >
            > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
            > > > before
            > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
            > the
            > > > 1912
            > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
            > 'congenital
            > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
            > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
            > > > Cspan
            > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
            > Ram
            > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
            > she
            > > > was
            > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
            > the
            > > > whole
            > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
            > the
            > > > Debs
            > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
            > > > learning
            > > > a
            > > > > lot form you guys.
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom Johnson
            > > > >
            > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
            > also
            > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
            > > > have
            > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
            > the
            > > > Taft
            > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
            > > > reading
            > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
            > began
            > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
            > Taft
            > > > into
            > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
            > though
            > > > > probably earlier.
            > > > >
            > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
            > of
            > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
            > term,
            > > > but
            >
            === message truncated ===
          • Ram Lau
            Greg, Rand has plenty of fans. They ve even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in her name a decade ago: http://www.aynrand.org/ She s the Milton Friedman of her
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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              Greg,

              Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in
              her name a decade ago:

              http://www.aynrand.org/

              She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

              "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of reason, rational
              self-interest, individual rights and free-market capitalism.

              ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a "cultural
              renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason, anti-individualism,
              anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's culture. The major
              battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism is the
              educational institutions—high schools, and above all, the
              universities, where students learn the ideas that shape their lives.

              Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that historical
              trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To reverse the
              current political and economic trends in America and throughout the
              world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental philosophy."

              Ram


              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
              wrote:
              > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
              > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
              > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
              > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
              > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
              > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
              > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
              > thing they agreed on was that private property should
              > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
              > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
              > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
              > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
              > condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
              > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
              >
              > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
              > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
              > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
              >
              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
              > > surely a very
              > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
              > > generation?) I sometimes
              > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
              > > imprisonment.
              > >
              > > Ram
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
              > > <gregcannon1@y...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
              > > I
              > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
              > > him.
              > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
              > > 1920,
              > > > though he was still in jail.
              > > >
              > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
              > > use
              > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
              > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
              > > not
              > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
              > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
              > > to
              > > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
              > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
              > > were
              > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
              > > her
              > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
              > > general
              > > > than at Wilson himself.
              > > >
              > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
              > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
              > > > > political
              > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
              > > curious
              > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
              > > Deb's
              > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
              > > attempt
              > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
              > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
              > > last
              > > > > to
              > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
              > > fact
              > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
              > > immediately
              > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
              > > > >
              > > > > Tom Johnson
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
              > > equality
              > > > > that the original
              > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
              > > > > Supreme
              > > > > Court Chief
              > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
              > > kind
              > > > > of
              > > > > Justice Bush or
              > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
              > > > > bother
              > > > > God when
              > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
              > > > > happen to mankind.
              > > > >
              > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
              > > > > Democratic Party for
              > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
              > > elements
              > > > > that Woodrow
              > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
              > > while
              > > > > the
              > > > > Republican Party
              > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
              > > something
              > > > > totally different
              > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
              > > the
              > > > > BookTV interview
              > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
              > > > > Roosevelt,
              > > > > Taft, and Debs -
              > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
              > > > > readable book:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
              > > > >
              > > > > Ram
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
              > > > > JOHNSON
              > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
              > > and
              > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
              > > entertained
              > > > > the
              > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
              > > the
              > > > > most
              > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
              > > born
              > > > > into
              > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
              > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
              > > > > machinery
              > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
              > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
              > > puppet
              > > > > of
              > > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
              > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
              > > trust-busting. He
              > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
              > > post-presidency,
              > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
              > > also
              > > > > find
              > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
              > > close
              > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
              > > and
              > > > >
              > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
              > > > > before
              > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
              > > the
              > > > > 1912
              > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
              > > 'congenital
              > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
              > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
              > > > > Cspan
              > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
              > > Ram
              > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
              > > she
              > > > > was
              > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
              > > the
              > > > > whole
              > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
              > > the
              > > > > Debs
              > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
              > > > > learning
              > > > > a
              > > > > > lot form you guys.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Tom Johnson
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
              > > also
              > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
              > > > > have
              > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
              > > the
              > > > > Taft
              > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
              > > > > reading
              > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
              > > began
              > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
              > > Taft
              > > > > into
              > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
              > > though
              > > > > > probably earlier.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
              > > of
              > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
              > > term,
              > > > > but
              > >
              > === message truncated ===
            • THOMAS JOHNSON
              While reading about the Harding administration and the Teapot Dome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I became re-acquainted with Fightin
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                While reading about the Harding administration and
                the Teapot Dome
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                administration.
                Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                the Iran-Contra scandal
                ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                Iran-Contra in the first place.
                In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                Leadership Survey
                http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.

                Tom Johnson
                --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                ---------------------------------
                Greg,

                Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                Rand Institute in
                her name a decade ago:

                http://www.aynrand.org/

                She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                reason, rational
                self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                capitalism.

                ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                "cultural
                renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                anti-individualism,
                anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                culture. The major
                battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                is the
                educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                the
                universities, where students learn the ideas that
                shape their lives.

                Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                historical
                trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                reverse the
                current political and economic trends in America and
                throughout the
                world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                philosophy."

                Ram


                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                <gregcannon1@y...>
                wrote:
                > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                were
                > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                > thing they agreed on was that private property
                should
                > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                Rand
                > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                them
                > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                She
                > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                birth
                > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                >
                > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                she
                > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                >
                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                > > surely a very
                > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                > > generation?) I sometimes
                > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                the
                > > imprisonment.
                > >
                > > Ram
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                Cannon
                > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                but
                > > I
                > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                > > him.
                > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                > > 1920,
                > > > though he was still in jail.
                > > >
                > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                > > use
                > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                Emma
                > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                was
                > > not
                > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                Union
                > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                allowed
                > > to
                > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                speeches
                > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                > > were
                > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                > > her
                > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                > > general
                > > > than at Wilson himself.
                > > >
                > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                > > > > political
                > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                > > curious
                > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                > > Deb's
                > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                > > attempt
                > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                > > last
                > > > > to
                > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                > > fact
                > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                > > immediately
                > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                astounding.
                > > > >
                > > > > Tom Johnson
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                > > equality
                > > > > that the original
                > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                > > > > Supreme
                > > > > Court Chief
                > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                > > kind
                > > > > of
                > > > > Justice Bush or
                > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                > > > > bother
                > > > > God when
                > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                never
                > > > > happen to mankind.
                > > > >
                > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                > > > > Democratic Party for
                > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                > > elements
                > > > > that Woodrow
                > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                > > while
                > > > > the
                > > > > Republican Party
                > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                > > something
                > > > > totally different
                > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                of
                > > the
                > > > > BookTV interview
                > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                > > > > Roosevelt,
                > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                > > > > readable book:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                > > > >
                > > > > Ram
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                > > > > JOHNSON
                > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                responses
                > > and
                > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                > > entertained
                > > > > the
                > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                > > the
                > > > > most
                > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                > > born
                > > > > into
                > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                > > > > machinery
                > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                > > puppet
                > > > > of
                > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                reading
                > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                > > trust-busting. He
                > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                > > post-presidency,
                > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                > > also
                > > > > find
                > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                > > close
                > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                successor),
                > > and
                > > > >
                > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                > > > > before
                > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in

                > > the
                > > > > 1912
                > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                > > 'congenital
                > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                Anthony
                > > > > Cspan
                > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                that
                > > Ram
                > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                > > she
                > > > > was
                > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                > > the
                > > > > whole
                > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                interview,
                > > the
                > > > > Debs
                > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                > > > > learning
                > > > > a
                > > > > > lot form you guys.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Tom Johnson
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                I'd
                > > also
                > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                here
                > > > > have
                > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                > > the
                > > > > Taft
                > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                > > > > reading
                > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                > > began
                > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                > > Taft
                > > > > into
                > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                > > though
                > > > > > probably earlier.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                prosecutions
                > > of
                > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                > > term,
                > > > > but
                > >
                > === message truncated ===




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              • Greg Cannon
                I ve also been reading about LaFollette. Here s an interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is from
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                  I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                  interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                  Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                  from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                  Senator.

                  One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                  influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                  night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                  as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                  been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                  thought that the President might listen to him on the
                  subject.
                  "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                  Congress."
                  "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                  President."
                  A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                  the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                  seeing, did not understand that it was already
                  unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                  "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                  said.

                  --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                  > While reading about the Harding administration and
                  > the Teapot Dome
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                  > I
                  > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                  >
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                  > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                  > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                  > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                  > Republican
                  > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                  > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                  > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                  > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                  > administration.
                • Ram Lau
                  Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
                    Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
                    See below for details:

                    Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
                    Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
                    7/3/2005

                    Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
                    founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
                    died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

                    Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
                    death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
                    Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

                    Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
                    joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
                    U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
                    and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
                    issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
                    go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

                    Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
                    as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
                    (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
                    becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
                    the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

                    An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
                    laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
                    Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
                    Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
                    Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
                    April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

                    He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
                    aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
                    Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
                    establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
                    legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
                    Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
                    Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

                    Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
                    hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
                    Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
                    accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
                    as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
                    attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
                    citizens a right to a clean environment.

                    Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
                    were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
                    program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
                    $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
                    package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
                    program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

                    Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
                    and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

                    He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
                    discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
                    When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
                    issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
                    college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
                    the Vietnam War.

                    On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
                    of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
                    promoting a cleaner Earth.

                    Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
                    schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
                    estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
                    countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
                    activities, organizers said.

                    Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
                    player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
                    and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
                    issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
                    abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

                    He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
                    an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
                    the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
                    Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
                    President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
                    war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
                    appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
                    I need my conscience."

                    The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
                    1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
                    Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
                    M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
                    Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

                    He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
                    degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
                    Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
                    troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
                    lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
                    in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
                    the state's National Guard.

                    Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
                    Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
                    see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
                    stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
                    Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

                    Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
                    nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
                    Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
                    and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
                    Wisconsin all are named for him.

                    When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
                    environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
                    figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
                    Roosevelt.

                    The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
                    experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
                    Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
                    naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
                    Lloyd Wright.

                    Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
                    wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
                    Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
                    four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

                    Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
                    will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

                    The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
                    Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
                    Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
                    Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
                    the Wilderness Society.


                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                    > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                    > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                    > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                    > Senator.
                    >
                    > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                    > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                    > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                    > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                    > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                    > thought that the President might listen to him on the
                    > subject.
                    > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                    > Congress."
                    > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                    > President."
                    > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                    > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                    > seeing, did not understand that it was already
                    > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                    > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                    > said.
                    >
                    > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                    > > the Teapot Dome
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                    > > I
                    > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                    > >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                    > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                    > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                    > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                    > > Republican
                    > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                    > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                    > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                    > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                    > > administration.
                  • Ram Lau
                    Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
                      on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
                      deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
                      real reason for the deficit spending.

                      The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
                      most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
                      disrespect.

                      Ram


                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      wrote:
                      > While reading about the Harding administration and
                      > the Teapot Dome
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                      > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                      > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                      > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                      > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                      > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                      > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                      > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                      > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                      > administration.
                      > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                      > the Iran-Contra scandal
                      > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                      > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                      > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                      > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                      > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                      > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                      > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                      > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                      > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                      > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                      > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                      > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                      > Leadership Survey
                      > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                      > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                      > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                      > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                      > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
                      >
                      > Tom Johnson
                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Greg,
                      >
                      > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                      > Rand Institute in
                      > her name a decade ago:
                      >
                      > http://www.aynrand.org/
                      >
                      > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                      >
                      > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                      > reason, rational
                      > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                      > capitalism.
                      >
                      > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                      > "cultural
                      > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                      > anti-individualism,
                      > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                      > culture. The major
                      > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                      > is the
                      > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                      > the
                      > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                      > shape their lives.
                      >
                      > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                      > historical
                      > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                      > reverse the
                      > current political and economic trends in America and
                      > throughout the
                      > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                      > philosophy."
                      >
                      > Ram
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                      > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                      > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                      > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                      > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                      > were
                      > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                      > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                      > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                      > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                      > should
                      > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                      > Rand
                      > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                      > them
                      > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                      > She
                      > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                      > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                      > birth
                      > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                      > >
                      > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                      > she
                      > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                      > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                      > >
                      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                      > > > surely a very
                      > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                      > > > generation?) I sometimes
                      > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                      > the
                      > > > imprisonment.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ram
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                      > Cannon
                      > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                      > but
                      > > > I
                      > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                      > > > him.
                      > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                      > > > 1920,
                      > > > > though he was still in jail.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                      > > > use
                      > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                      > Emma
                      > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                      > was
                      > > > not
                      > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                      > Union
                      > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                      > allowed
                      > > > to
                      > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                      > speeches
                      > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                      > > > were
                      > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                      > > > her
                      > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                      > > > general
                      > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                      > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                      > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                      > > > > > political
                      > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                      > > > curious
                      > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                      > > > Deb's
                      > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                      > > > attempt
                      > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                      > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                      > > > last
                      > > > > > to
                      > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                      > > > fact
                      > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                      > > > immediately
                      > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                      > astounding.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                      > > > equality
                      > > > > > that the original
                      > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                      > > > > > Supreme
                      > > > > > Court Chief
                      > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                      > > > kind
                      > > > > > of
                      > > > > > Justice Bush or
                      > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                      > > > > > bother
                      > > > > > God when
                      > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                      > never
                      > > > > > happen to mankind.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                      > > > > > Democratic Party for
                      > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                      > > > elements
                      > > > > > that Woodrow
                      > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                      > > > while
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > Republican Party
                      > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                      > > > something
                      > > > > > totally different
                      > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                      > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > BookTV interview
                      > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                      > > > > > Roosevelt,
                      > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                      > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                      > > > > > readable book:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Ram
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                      > > > > > JOHNSON
                      > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                      > responses
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                      > > > entertained
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > most
                      > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                      > > > born
                      > > > > > into
                      > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                      > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                      > > > > > machinery
                      > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                      > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                      > > > puppet
                      > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                      > reading
                      > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                      > > > trust-busting. He
                      > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                      > > > post-presidency,
                      > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                      > > > also
                      > > > > > find
                      > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                      > > > close
                      > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                      > successor),
                      > > > and
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                      > > > > > before
                      > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                      >
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > 1912
                      > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                      > > > 'congenital
                      > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                      > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                      > Anthony
                      > > > > > Cspan
                      > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                      > that
                      > > > Ram
                      > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                      > > > she
                      > > > > > was
                      > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > whole
                      > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                      > interview,
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > Debs
                      > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                      > > > > > learning
                      > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                      > I'd
                      > > > also
                      > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                      > here
                      > > > > > have
                      > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > Taft
                      > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                      > > > > > reading
                      > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                      > > > began
                      > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                      > > > Taft
                      > > > > > into
                      > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                      > > > though
                      > > > > > > probably earlier.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                      > prosecutions
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                      > > > term,
                      > > > > > but
                      > > >
                      > > === message truncated ===
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
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                      >
                      > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                      >
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                      > ---------------------------------
                    • THOMAS JOHNSON
                      Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                        totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                        Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                        replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                        passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                        did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                        expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                        Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                        going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                        "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                        Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                        un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                        he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




                        --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                        ---------------------------------
                        Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                        begin my judgement
                        on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                        his 8 consecutive
                        deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                        spending were not the
                        real reason for the deficit spending.

                        The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                        differently, and will
                        most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                        contempt and
                        disrespect.

                        Ram


                        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                        <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                        wrote:
                        > While reading about the Harding administration and
                        > the Teapot Dome
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                        I
                        > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                        >
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                        > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                        > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                        > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                        Republican
                        > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                        > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                        > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                        > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                        > administration.
                        > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                        and
                        > the Iran-Contra scandal
                        > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                        > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                        > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                        > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                        immunity
                        > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                        re
                        > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                        > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                        > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                        pursuing
                        > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                        > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                        long
                        > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                        the
                        > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                        Presidential
                        > Leadership Survey
                        >
                        http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                        > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                        > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                        > How different things might have been if Bob
                        LaFollette
                        > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                        not.
                        >
                        > Tom Johnson
                        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Greg,
                        >
                        > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                        > Rand Institute in
                        > her name a decade ago:
                        >
                        > http://www.aynrand.org/
                        >
                        > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                        >
                        > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                        > reason, rational
                        > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                        > capitalism.
                        >
                        > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                        a
                        > "cultural
                        > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                        > anti-individualism,
                        > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                        > culture. The major
                        > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                        > is the
                        > educational institutions—high schools, and above
                        all,
                        > the
                        > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                        > shape their lives.
                        >
                        > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
                        that
                        > historical
                        > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                        > reverse the
                        > current political and economic trends in America and
                        > throughout the
                        > world requires a reversal of our society's
                        fundamental
                        > philosophy."
                        >
                        > Ram
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                        > <gregcannon1@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                        > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                        they
                        > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                        different
                        > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                        > were
                        > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                        who
                        > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                        > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                        main
                        > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                        > should
                        > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                        > Rand
                        > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                        > them
                        > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                        > She
                        > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                        apparently
                        > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                        > birth
                        > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                        time.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                        > she
                        > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                        What
                        > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                        > >
                        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                        Rand,
                        > > > surely a very
                        > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                        > > > generation?) I sometimes
                        > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                        > the
                        > > > imprisonment.
                        > > >
                        > > > Ram
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                        > Cannon
                        > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                        > but
                        > > > I
                        > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                        pardoned
                        > > > him.
                        > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                        in
                        > > > 1920,
                        > > > > though he was still in jail.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                        the
                        > > > use
                        > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                        > Emma
                        > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                        > was
                        > > > not
                        > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                        > Union
                        > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                        > allowed
                        > > > to
                        > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                        > speeches
                        > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                        Thousands
                        > > > were
                        > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                        that
                        > > > her
                        > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                        > > > general
                        > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                        > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                        > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                        > > > > > political
                        > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                        > > > curious
                        > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                        that
                        > > > Deb's
                        > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                        > > > attempt
                        > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                        > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                        the
                        > > > last
                        > > > > > to
                        > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                        the
                        > > > fact
                        > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                        > > > immediately
                        > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                        > astounding.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                        > > > equality
                        > > > > > that the original
                        > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                        superb
                        > > > > > Supreme
                        > > > > > Court Chief
                        > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                        what
                        > > > kind
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > Justice Bush or
                        > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                        only
                        > > > > > bother
                        > > > > > God when
                        > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                        > never
                        > > > > > happen to mankind.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                        The
                        > > > > > Democratic Party for
                        > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                        > > > elements
                        > > > > > that Woodrow
                        > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                        > > > while
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > Republican Party
                        > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                        > > > something
                        > > > > > totally different
                        > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                        > of
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > BookTV interview
                        > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                        > > > > > Roosevelt,
                        > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                        > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                        very
                        > > > > > readable book:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Ram
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                        THOMAS
                        > > > > > JOHNSON
                        > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                        > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                        > responses
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                        > > > entertained
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                        was
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > most
                        > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                        was
                        > > > born
                        > > > > > into
                        > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                        > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                        > > > > > machinery
                        > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                        > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                        > > > puppet
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                        > reading
                        > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                        > > > trust-busting. He
                        > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                        > > > post-presidency,
                        > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                        I
                        > > > also
                        > > > > > find
                        > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                        > > > close
                        > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                        > successor),
                        > > > and
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                        together
                        > > > > > before
                        > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                        in
                        >
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > 1912
                        > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                        > > > 'congenital
                        > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                        > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                        > Anthony
                        > > > > > Cspan
                        > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                        > that
                        > > > Ram
                        > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                        that
                        > > > she
                        > > > > > was
                        > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                        see
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > whole
                        > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                        > interview,
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > Debs
                        > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                        > > > > > learning
                        > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                        > I'd
                        > > > also
                        > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                        > here
                        > > > > > have
                        > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                        with
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > Taft
                        > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                        I'm
                        > > > > > reading
                        > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                        > > > began
                        > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                        taking
                        > > > Taft
                        > > > > > into
                        > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                        > > > though
                        > > > > > > probably earlier.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                        > prosecutions
                        > > > of
                        > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                        first
                        > > > term,
                        > > > > > but
                        > > >
                        > > === message truncated ===
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        ---------------------------------
                      • Ram Lau
                        Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                          Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
                          Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

                          His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
                          how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
                          the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
                          conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
                          driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

                          Ram


                          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                          wrote:
                          > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                          > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                          > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                          > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                          > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                          > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                          > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                          > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                          > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                          > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                          > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                          > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                          > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                          > begin my judgement
                          > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                          > his 8 consecutive
                          > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                          > spending were not the
                          > real reason for the deficit spending.
                          >
                          > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                          > differently, and will
                          > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                          > contempt and
                          > disrespect.
                          >
                          > Ram
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                          > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                          > > the Teapot Dome
                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                          > I
                          > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                          > >
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                          > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                          > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                          > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                          > Republican
                          > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                          > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                          > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                          > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                          > > administration.
                          > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                          > and
                          > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                          > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                          > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                          > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                          > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                          > immunity
                          > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                          > re
                          > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                          > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                          > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                          > pursuing
                          > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                          > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                          > long
                          > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                          > the
                          > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                          > Presidential
                          > > Leadership Survey
                          > >
                          > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                          > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                          > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                          > > How different things might have been if Bob
                          > LaFollette
                          > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                          > not.
                          > >
                          > > Tom Johnson
                          > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > Greg,
                          > >
                          > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                          > > Rand Institute in
                          > > her name a decade ago:
                          > >
                          > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                          > >
                          > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                          > >
                          > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                          > > reason, rational
                          > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                          > > capitalism.
                          > >
                          > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                          > a
                          > > "cultural
                          > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                          > > anti-individualism,
                          > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                          > > culture. The major
                          > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                          > > is the
                          > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                          > all,
                          > > the
                          > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                          > > shape their lives.
                          > >
                          > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
                          > that
                          > > historical
                          > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                          > > reverse the
                          > > current political and economic trends in America and
                          > > throughout the
                          > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                          > fundamental
                          > > philosophy."
                          > >
                          > > Ram
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                          > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                          > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                          > they
                          > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                          > different
                          > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                          > > were
                          > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                          > who
                          > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                          > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                          > main
                          > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                          > > should
                          > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                          > > Rand
                          > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                          > > them
                          > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                          > > She
                          > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                          > apparently
                          > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                          > > birth
                          > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                          > time.
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                          > > she
                          > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                          > What
                          > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                          > Rand,
                          > > > > surely a very
                          > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                          > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                          > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                          > > the
                          > > > > imprisonment.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Ram
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                          > > Cannon
                          > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                          > > but
                          > > > > I
                          > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                          > pardoned
                          > > > > him.
                          > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                          > in
                          > > > > 1920,
                          > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                          > the
                          > > > > use
                          > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                          > > Emma
                          > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                          > > was
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                          > > Union
                          > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                          > > allowed
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                          > > speeches
                          > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                          > Thousands
                          > > > > were
                          > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                          > that
                          > > > > her
                          > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                          > > > > general
                          > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                          > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                          > > > > > > political
                          > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                          > > > > curious
                          > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                          > that
                          > > > > Deb's
                          > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                          > > > > attempt
                          > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                          > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                          > the
                          > > > > last
                          > > > > > > to
                          > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                          > the
                          > > > > fact
                          > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                          > > > > immediately
                          > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                          > > astounding.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                          > > > > equality
                          > > > > > > that the original
                          > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                          > superb
                          > > > > > > Supreme
                          > > > > > > Court Chief
                          > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                          > what
                          > > > > kind
                          > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                          > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                          > only
                          > > > > > > bother
                          > > > > > > God when
                          > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                          > > never
                          > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                          > The
                          > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                          > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                          > > > > elements
                          > > > > > > that Woodrow
                          > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                          > > > > while
                          > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > Republican Party
                          > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                          > > > > something
                          > > > > > > totally different
                          > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                          > > of
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > BookTV interview
                          > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                          > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                          > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                          > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                          > very
                          > > > > > > readable book:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Ram
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                          > THOMAS
                          > > > > > > JOHNSON
                          > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                          > > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                          > > responses
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                          > > > > entertained
                          > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                          > was
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > most
                          > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                          > was
                          > > > > born
                          > > > > > > into
                          > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                          > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                          > > > > > > machinery
                          > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                          > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                          > > > > puppet
                          > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                          > > reading
                          > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                          > > > > trust-busting. He
                          > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                          > > > > post-presidency,
                          > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                          > I
                          > > > > also
                          > > > > > > find
                          > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                          > > > > close
                          > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                          > > successor),
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                          > together
                          > > > > > > before
                          > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                          > in
                          > >
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > 1912
                          > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                          > > > > 'congenital
                          > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                          > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                          > > Anthony
                          > > > > > > Cspan
                          > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                          > > that
                          > > > > Ram
                          > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                          > that
                          > > > > she
                          > > > > > > was
                          > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                          > see
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > whole
                          > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                          > > interview,
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > Debs
                          > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                          > > > > > > learning
                          > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                          > > I'd
                          > > > > also
                          > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                          > > here
                          > > > > > > have
                          > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                          > with
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > Taft
                          > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                          > I'm
                          > > > > > > reading
                          > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                          > > > > began
                          > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                          > taking
                          > > > > Taft
                          > > > > > > into
                          > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                          > > > > though
                          > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                          > > prosecutions
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                          > first
                          > > > > term,
                          > > > > > > but
                          > > > >
                          > > > === message truncated ===
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
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                        • THOMAS JOHNSON
                          Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                            Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
                            In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
                            did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
                            the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
                            Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
                            Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
                            internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
                            inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
                            the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
                            Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
                            Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
                            that increased American military spending by 8% per
                            annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
                            effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
                            growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
                            spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
                            annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
                            rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
                            1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
                            continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
                            returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
                            out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
                            were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
                            Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
                            the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
                            in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

                            That didn't help.

                            Tom


                            --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                            ---------------------------------
                            Princess David! He probably said that in his second
                            term? His
                            Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
                            years.

                            His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
                            book confessing
                            how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
                            economics had damage
                            the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
                            true
                            conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
                            as immoral as
                            driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
                            generations.

                            Ram


                            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                            <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                            wrote:
                            > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
                            pols
                            > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                            > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                            > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                            > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
                            what
                            > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                            > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                            > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
                            Africa,
                            > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                            > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                            > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                            > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
                            where
                            > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                            > begin my judgement
                            > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                            > his 8 consecutive
                            > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                            > spending were not the
                            > real reason for the deficit spending.
                            >
                            > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                            > differently, and will
                            > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                            > contempt and
                            > disrespect.
                            >
                            > Ram
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                            JOHNSON
                            > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > While reading about the Harding administration
                            and
                            > > the Teapot Dome
                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
                            scandal,
                            > I
                            > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                            > >
                            >
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                            > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
                            in
                            > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
                            and
                            > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                            > Republican
                            > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                            > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
                            man.
                            > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                            > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                            > > administration.
                            > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                            > and
                            > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                            > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                            > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                            > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                            > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                            > immunity
                            > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                            > re
                            > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
                            Clinton,
                            > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
                            R-Cal,
                            > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                            > pursuing
                            > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                            > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                            > long
                            > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                            > the
                            > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                            > Presidential
                            > > Leadership Survey
                            > >
                            >
                            http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                            > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
                            and
                            > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                            > > How different things might have been if Bob
                            > LaFollette
                            > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                            > not.
                            > >
                            > > Tom Johnson
                            > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > Greg,
                            > >
                            > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
                            Ayn
                            > > Rand Institute in
                            > > her name a decade ago:
                            > >
                            > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                            > >
                            > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                            > >
                            > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                            > > reason, rational
                            > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                            > > capitalism.
                            > >
                            > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
                            spearheading
                            > a
                            > > "cultural
                            > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                            > > anti-individualism,
                            > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                            > > culture. The major
                            > > battleground in this fight for reason and
                            capitalism
                            > > is the
                            > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                            > all,
                            > > the
                            > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                            > > shape their lives.
                            > >
                            > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
                            Objectivism�holds
                            > that
                            > > historical
                            > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
                            To
                            > > reverse the
                            > > current political and economic trends in America
                            and
                            > > throughout the
                            > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                            > fundamental
                            > > philosophy."
                            > >
                            > > Ram
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                            Cannon
                            > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                            > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                            > they
                            > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                            > different
                            > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                            > > were
                            > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                            > who
                            > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
                            always
                            > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                            > main
                            > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                            > > should
                            > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                            > > Rand
                            > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                            > > them
                            > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
                            control.
                            > > She
                            > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                            > apparently
                            > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                            > > birth
                            > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                            > time.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
                            Was
                            > > she
                            > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                            > What
                            > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
                            live?
                            > > >
                            > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                            > Rand,
                            > > > > surely a very
                            > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                            > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                            > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
                            with
                            > > the
                            > > > > imprisonment.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ram
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                            > > Cannon
                            > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
                            prosecution,
                            > > but
                            > > > > I
                            > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                            > pardoned
                            > > > > him.
                            > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                            > in
                            > > > > 1920,
                            > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                            > the
                            > > > > use
                            > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
                            of
                            > > Emma
                            > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
                            she
                            > > was
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                            > > Union
                            > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                            > > allowed
                            > > > > to
                            > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                            > > speeches
                            > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                            > Thousands
                            > > > > were
                            > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                            > that
                            > > > > her
                            > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                            > > > > general
                            > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                            > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
                            a
                            > > > > > > political
                            > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
                            I'm
                            > > > > curious
                            > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                            > that
                            > > > > Deb's
                            > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
                            an
                            > > > > attempt
                            > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                            > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                            > the
                            > > > > last
                            > > > > > > to
                            > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                            > the
                            > > > > fact
                            > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                            > > > > immediately
                            > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                            > > astounding.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                            > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                            > > > > equality
                            > > > > > > that the original
                            > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                            > superb
                            > > > > > > Supreme
                            > > > > > > Court Chief
                            > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                            > what
                            > > > > kind
                            > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                            > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                            > only
                            > > > > > > bother
                            > > > > > > God when
                            > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                            > > never
                            > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                            > The
                            > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                            > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                            > > > > elements
                            > > > > > > that Woodrow
                            > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
                            embraced,
                            > > > > while
                            > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > Republican Party
                            > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                            > > > > something
                            > > > > > > totally different
                            > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
                            transcript
                            > > of
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > BookTV interview
                            > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                            > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                            > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                            > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                            > very
                            > > > > > > readable book:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Ram
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                            > THOMAS
                            > > > > > > JOHNSON
                            > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                            > > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                            > > responses
                            > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                            > > > > entertained
                            > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                            > was
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > most
                            > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                            > was
                            > > > > born
                            > > > > > > into
                            > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                            > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
                            party
                            > > > > > > machinery
                            > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
                            Republican
                            > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
                            a
                            > > > > puppet
                            > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                            > > reading
                            > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                            > > > > trust-busting. He
                            > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                            > > > > post-presidency,
                            > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
                            Court.
                            > I
                            > > > > also
                            > > > > > > find
                            > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
                            been
                            > > > > close
                            > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                            > > successor),
                            > > > > and
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                            > together
                            > > > > > > before
                            > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
                            that
                            > in
                            > >
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > 1912
                            > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                            > > > > 'congenital
                            > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                            > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                            > > Anthony
                            > > > > > > Cspan
                            > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                            > > that
                            > > > > Ram
                            > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                            > that
                            > > > > she
                            > > > > > > was
                            > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                            > see
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > whole
                            > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                            > > interview,
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > Debs
                            > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
                            I'm
                            > > > > > > learning
                            > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                            > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
                            though
                            > > I'd
                            > > > > also
                            > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
                            anyone
                            > > here
                            > > > > > > have
                            > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                            > with
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > Taft
                            > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                            > I'm
                            > > > > > > reading
                            > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
                            Teddy
                            > > > > began
                            > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                            > taking
                            > > > > Taft
                            > > > > > > into
                            > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
                            1905
                            > > > > though
                            > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                            > > prosecutions
                            > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                            > first
                            > > > > term,
                            > > > > > > but
                            > > > >
                            > > > === message truncated ===
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
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