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Re: [prezveepsenator] An email I sent to DailyKos.com

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  • THOMAS JOHNSON
    Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
      welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
      notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
      analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
      political privilege, divisive, pious,
      anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
      (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
      nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
      big business, but after doing a little reading
      tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
      seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
      including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
      it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
      friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
      were able to have an amicable lunch together before
      the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
      primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
      liar' were thrown at each other.
      I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
      interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
      alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
      pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
      segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
      profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
      lot form you guys.

      Tom Johnson

      --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:


      ---------------------------------
      I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
      like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
      suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
      administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
      has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
      sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
      his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
      probably earlier.

      Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
      monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
      he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
      he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
      among government employees.

      I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
      movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
      about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
      the defense.

      --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

      > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
      > am
      > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
      > that
      > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
      > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
      > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
      > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
      > pious,
      > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
      > the
      > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
      > reaction
      > could repeat itself a century later.
      >
      > Tom Johnson
      >
      > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
      > then the party's message might become only marketing
      > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
      > the
      > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
      > both
      > accounts. They never fully committed to either
      > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
      > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
      > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
      > the voters.
      >
      > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
      > reading
      > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
      > the
      > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
      > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
      > have
      > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
      > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
      > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
      > and
      > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
      > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
      >
      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
      >
      > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
      > > I've come to the
      > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
      > more
      > > than anything
      > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
      > > are willing to go
      > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
      > > Dems are simply
      > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
      > > than bright)
      > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
      > go,
      > > the elitist
      > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
      > > people don't vote on
      > > the issues.
      > >
      > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
      > in
      > > 1964: "We have
      > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
      > > WRONG. They had
      > > lost the South for generations. The only times
      > when
      > > the Democratic
      > > candidate could win the South and thus the
      > election
      > > were all
      > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
      > > namely, the
      > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
      > year
      > > (1992). Then it
      > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
      > > Even worse, both
      > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
      > > attractive the Southern
      > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
      > > support to win.
      > >
      > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
      > > civil rights (from
      > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
      > > freedom - are what
      > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
      > the
      > > liberals have
      > > never been on their side. That's why the
      > > pro-slavery, anti-women
      > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
      > bastion
      > > in the pre-FDR
      > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
      > by
      > > the liberals.
      > >
      > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
      > > past 200 years, and
      > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
      > liberals
      > > always get what
      > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
      > > platform of the
      > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
      > > far left agenda,
      > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
      > > hopeful in a longer
      > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
      > days.
      > >
      > > Ram
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
      > to:
      > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      > Yahoo!
      > Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      >



      ---------------------------------
      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


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      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      ---------------------------------
    • Ram Lau
      Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief Justice. I find it
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
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        Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original
        Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief
        Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of Justice Bush or
        Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother God when
        necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never happen to mankind.

        The 1912 election was a critical election. The Democratic Party for
        the first time experienced the progressive elements that Woodrow
        Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the Republican Party
        began to turn from a center-left party to something totally different
        half a century later. Here is the transcript of the BookTV interview
        with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt, Taft, and Debs -
        The Election That Changed the Country," a very readable book:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

        Ram


        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
        wrote:
        > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
        > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
        > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
        > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
        > political privilege, divisive, pious,
        > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
        > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
        > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
        > big business, but after doing a little reading
        > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
        > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
        > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
        > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
        > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
        > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
        > the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
        > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
        > liar' were thrown at each other.
        > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
        > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
        > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
        > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
        > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
        > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
        > lot form you guys.
        >
        > Tom Johnson
        >
        > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
        > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
        > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
        > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
        > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
        > sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
        > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
        > probably earlier.
        >
        > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
        > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
        > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
        > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
        > among government employees.
        >
        > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
        > movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
        > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
        > the defense.
        >
        > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
        >
        > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
        > > am
        > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
        > > that
        > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
        > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
        > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
        > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
        > > pious,
        > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
        > > the
        > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
        > > reaction
        > > could repeat itself a century later.
        > >
        > > Tom Johnson
        > >
        > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
        > > then the party's message might become only marketing
        > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
        > > the
        > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
        > > both
        > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
        > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
        > > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
        > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
        > > the voters.
        > >
        > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
        > > reading
        > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
        > > the
        > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
        > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
        > > have
        > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
        > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
        > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
        > > and
        > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
        > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
        > >
        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
        > > > I've come to the
        > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
        > > more
        > > > than anything
        > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
        > > > are willing to go
        > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
        > > > Dems are simply
        > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
        > > > than bright)
        > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
        > > go,
        > > > the elitist
        > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
        > > > people don't vote on
        > > > the issues.
        > > >
        > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
        > > in
        > > > 1964: "We have
        > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
        > > > WRONG. They had
        > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
        > > when
        > > > the Democratic
        > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
        > > election
        > > > were all
        > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
        > > > namely, the
        > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
        > > year
        > > > (1992). Then it
        > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
        > > > Even worse, both
        > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
        > > > attractive the Southern
        > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
        > > > support to win.
        > > >
        > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
        > > > civil rights (from
        > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
        > > > freedom - are what
        > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
        > > the
        > > > liberals have
        > > > never been on their side. That's why the
        > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
        > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
        > > bastion
        > > > in the pre-FDR
        > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
        > > by
        > > > the liberals.
        > > >
        > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
        > > > past 200 years, and
        > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
        > > liberals
        > > > always get what
        > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
        > > > platform of the
        > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
        > > > far left agenda,
        > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
        > > > hopeful in a longer
        > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
        > > days.
        > > >
        > > > Ram
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > >
        > >
        > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
        > > to:
        > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > > Yahoo!
        > > Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
      • THOMAS JOHNSON
        Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I d like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
          interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
          like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
          Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
          like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
          In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
          learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
          and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
          seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
          they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
          although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
          that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
          Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
          the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
          tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
          whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
          incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
          to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
          I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
          leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
          that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
          after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.

          Tom Johnson




          --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
          that the original
          Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
          Court Chief
          Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
          Justice Bush or
          Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
          God when
          necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
          happen to mankind.

          The 1912 election was a critical election. The
          Democratic Party for
          the first time experienced the progressive elements
          that Woodrow
          Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
          Republican Party
          began to turn from a center-left party to something
          totally different
          half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
          BookTV interview
          with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
          Taft, and Debs -
          The Election That Changed the Country," a very
          readable book:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

          Ram


          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
          <AVRCRDNG@F...>
          wrote:
          > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
          > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
          > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
          > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
          into
          > political privilege, divisive, pious,
          > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
          > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
          > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
          > big business, but after doing a little reading
          > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
          > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
          > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
          find
          > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
          > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
          > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
          > the latter's death , significant in that in the
          1912
          > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
          > liar' were thrown at each other.
          > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
          > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
          > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
          > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
          whole
          > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
          Debs
          > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
          a
          > lot form you guys.
          >
          > Tom Johnson
          >
          > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
          > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
          > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
          > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
          > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
          > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
          into
          > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
          > probably earlier.
          >
          > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
          > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
          but
          > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
          > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
          > among government employees.
          >
          > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
          progressive
          > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
          come
          > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
          on
          > the defense.
          >
          > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
          >
          > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
          and
          > > am
          > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
          > > that
          > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
          > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
          in
          > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
          the
          > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
          > > pious,
          > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
          > > the
          > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
          > > reaction
          > > could repeat itself a century later.
          > >
          > > Tom Johnson
          > >
          > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
          > > then the party's message might become only
          marketing
          > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
          > > the
          > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
          > > both
          > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
          > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
          his
          > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
          miserably
          > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
          to
          > > the voters.
          > >
          > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
          > > reading
          > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
          > > the
          > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
          > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
          > > have
          > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
          > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
          because
          > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
          > > and
          > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
          > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
          > >
          > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > In politics and in my years of studying
          politics,
          > > > I've come to the
          > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
          > > more
          > > > than anything
          > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
          and
          > > > are willing to go
          > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
          The
          > > > Dems are simply
          > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
          less
          > > > than bright)
          > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
          > > go,
          > > > the elitist
          > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
          > > > people don't vote on
          > > > the issues.
          > > >
          > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
          > > in
          > > > 1964: "We have
          > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
          > > > WRONG. They had
          > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
          > > when
          > > > the Democratic
          > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
          > > election
          > > > were all
          > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
          -
          > > > namely, the
          > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
          > > year
          > > > (1992). Then it
          > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
          > > > Even worse, both
          > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
          > > > attractive the Southern
          > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
          enough
          > > > support to win.
          > > >
          > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
          > > > civil rights (from
          > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
          > > > freedom - are what
          > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
          > > the
          > > > liberals have
          > > > never been on their side. That's why the
          > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
          > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
          > > bastion
          > > > in the pre-FDR
          > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
          > > by
          > > > the liberals.
          > > >
          > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
          > > > past 200 years, and
          > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
          > > liberals
          > > > always get what
          > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
          > > > platform of the
          > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
          the
          > > > far left agenda,
          > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
          > > > hopeful in a longer
          > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
          > > days.
          > > >
          > > > Ram
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > >
          > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
          > > to:
          > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
          > > Yahoo!
          > > Terms of Service.
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
          to:
          > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
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        • Ram Lau
          Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems. Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative, and he was not one of those
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems.
            Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative,
            and he was not one of those orthodox Southern Democrats in his days.
            After all, he became President of Princeton and Governor of New
            Jersey before the Presidency. I like Taft for being real and honest,
            even I think he was a little too passive and conservative as an Ohio
            Republican a century ago. But, to be fair, Taft was just as centrist
            as Wilson.

            The country wanted progressives at a time when the Triangle Factory
            Fire just happened, and the anti-child labor sentiment and women's
            rights movement were fermenting. The 1912 election was all about
            the "America can do better" feelings.

            Ram


            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
            <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
            > Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
            > interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
            > like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
            > Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
            > like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
            > In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
            > learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
            > and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
            > seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
            > they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
            > although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
            > that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
            > Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
            > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
            > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
            > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
            > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
            > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
            > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
            > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
            > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
            > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
            >
            > Tom Johnson
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
            > that the original
            > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
            > Court Chief
            > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
            > Justice Bush or
            > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
            > God when
            > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
            > happen to mankind.
            >
            > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
            > Democratic Party for
            > the first time experienced the progressive elements
            > that Woodrow
            > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
            > Republican Party
            > began to turn from a center-left party to something
            > totally different
            > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
            > BookTV interview
            > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
            > Taft, and Debs -
            > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
            > readable book:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
            >
            > Ram
            >
            >
            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
            > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            > wrote:
            > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
            > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
            > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
            > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
            > into
            > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
            > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
            > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
            > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
            > > big business, but after doing a little reading
            > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
            > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
            > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
            > find
            > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
            > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
            > > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
            > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
            > 1912
            > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
            > > liar' were thrown at each other.
            > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
            > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
            > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
            > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
            > whole
            > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
            > Debs
            > > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
            > a
            > > lot form you guys.
            > >
            > > Tom Johnson
            > >
            > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
            > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
            > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
            > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
            > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
            > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
            > into
            > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
            > > probably earlier.
            > >
            > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
            > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
            > but
            > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
            > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
            > > among government employees.
            > >
            > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
            > progressive
            > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
            > come
            > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
            > on
            > > the defense.
            > >
            > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
            > and
            > > > am
            > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
            > > > that
            > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
            > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
            > in
            > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
            > the
            > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
            > > > pious,
            > > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
            > > > the
            > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
            > > > reaction
            > > > could repeat itself a century later.
            > > >
            > > > Tom Johnson
            > > >
            > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
            > > > then the party's message might become only
            > marketing
            > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
            > > > the
            > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
            > > > both
            > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
            > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
            > his
            > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
            > miserably
            > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
            > to
            > > > the voters.
            > > >
            > > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
            > > > reading
            > > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
            > > > the
            > > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
            > > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
            > > > have
            > > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
            > > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
            > because
            > > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
            > > > and
            > > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
            > > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
            > > >
            > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > In politics and in my years of studying
            > politics,
            > > > > I've come to the
            > > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
            > > > more
            > > > > than anything
            > > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
            > and
            > > > > are willing to go
            > > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
            > The
            > > > > Dems are simply
            > > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
            > less
            > > > > than bright)
            > > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
            > > > go,
            > > > > the elitist
            > > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
            > > > > people don't vote on
            > > > > the issues.
            > > > >
            > > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
            > > > in
            > > > > 1964: "We have
            > > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
            > > > > WRONG. They had
            > > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
            > > > when
            > > > > the Democratic
            > > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
            > > > election
            > > > > were all
            > > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
            > -
            > > > > namely, the
            > > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
            > > > year
            > > > > (1992). Then it
            > > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
            > > > > Even worse, both
            > > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
            > > > > attractive the Southern
            > > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
            > enough
            > > > > support to win.
            > > > >
            > > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
            > > > > civil rights (from
            > > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
            > > > > freedom - are what
            > > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
            > > > the
            > > > > liberals have
            > > > > never been on their side. That's why the
            > > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
            > > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
            > > > bastion
            > > > > in the pre-FDR
            > > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
            > > > by
            > > > > the liberals.
            > > > >
            > > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
            > > > > past 200 years, and
            > > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
            > > > liberals
            > > > > always get what
            > > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
            > > > > platform of the
            > > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
            > the
            > > > > far left agenda,
            > > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
            > > > > hopeful in a longer
            > > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
            > > > days.
            > > > >
            > > > > Ram
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > > > to:
            > > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > > > Yahoo!
            > > > Terms of Service.
            > > >
            > > >
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            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > >
            > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > to:
            > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > Yahoo!
            > > Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service.
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            > ---------------------------------
          • Greg Cannon
            I don t know the details of Debs prosecution, but I recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him. And Debs did still get about a million votes in
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
              recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
              And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
              though he was still in jail.

              The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
              of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
              Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
              only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
              (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
              return to America, all because she'd made speeches
              against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
              deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
              anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
              than at Wilson himself.

              --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
              > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
              > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
              > political
              > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
              > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
              > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
              > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
              > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
              > to
              > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
              > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
              > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
              >
              > Tom Johnson
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
              > that the original
              > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
              > Supreme
              > Court Chief
              > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
              > of
              > Justice Bush or
              > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
              > bother
              > God when
              > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
              > happen to mankind.
              >
              > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
              > Democratic Party for
              > the first time experienced the progressive elements
              > that Woodrow
              > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
              > the
              > Republican Party
              > began to turn from a center-left party to something
              > totally different
              > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
              > BookTV interview
              > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
              > Roosevelt,
              > Taft, and Debs -
              > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
              > readable book:
              >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
              >
              > Ram
              >
              >
              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
              > JOHNSON
              > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              > wrote:
              > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
              > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
              > the
              > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
              > most
              > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
              > into
              > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
              > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
              > machinery
              > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
              > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
              > of
              > > big business, but after doing a little reading
              > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
              > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
              > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
              > find
              > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
              > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
              >
              > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
              > before
              > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
              > 1912
              > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
              > > liar' were thrown at each other.
              > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
              > Cspan
              > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
              > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
              > was
              > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
              > whole
              > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
              > Debs
              > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
              > learning
              > a
              > > lot form you guys.
              > >
              > > Tom Johnson
              > >
              > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
              > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
              > have
              > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
              > Taft
              > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
              > reading
              > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
              > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
              > into
              > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
              > > probably earlier.
              > >
              > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
              > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
              > but
              > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
              > and
              > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
              > shops"
              > > among government employees.
              > >
              > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
              > progressive
              > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
              > come
              > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
              > on
              > > the defense.
              > >
              > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
              > and
              > > > am
              > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
              > advances
              > > > that
              > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
              > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
              > least
              > in
              > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
              > the
              > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
              > > > pious,
              > > > pro big business president such as Taft
              > inspired
              > > > the
              > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
              > > > reaction
              > > > could repeat itself a century later.
              > > >
              > > > Tom Johnson
              > > >
              > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
              > far
              > > > then the party's message might become only
              > marketing
              > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
              > At
              > > > the
              > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
              > on
              > > > both
              > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
              > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
              > his
              > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
              > miserably
              > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
              > to
              >
              === message truncated ===
            • Ram Lau
              Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes wonder if the Red Scare had
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very
                different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes
                wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the imprisonment.

                Ram


                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                wrote:
                > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
                > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
                > And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
                > though he was still in jail.
                >
                > The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
                > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
                > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
                > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                > against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
                > deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
                > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
                > than at Wilson himself.
                >
                > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                > > political
                > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
                > > to
                > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                > >
                > > Tom Johnson
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                > > that the original
                > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                > > Supreme
                > > Court Chief
                > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
                > > of
                > > Justice Bush or
                > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                > > bother
                > > God when
                > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                > > happen to mankind.
                > >
                > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                > > Democratic Party for
                > > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                > > that Woodrow
                > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
                > > the
                > > Republican Party
                > > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                > > totally different
                > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                > > BookTV interview
                > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                > > Roosevelt,
                > > Taft, and Debs -
                > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                > > readable book:
                > >
                > >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                > >
                > > Ram
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                > > JOHNSON
                > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                > > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
                > > the
                > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
                > > most
                > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                > > into
                > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                > > machinery
                > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                > > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
                > > of
                > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                > > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                > > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                > > find
                > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                > >
                > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                > > before
                > > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                > > 1912
                > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                > > Cspan
                > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
                > > was
                > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                > > whole
                > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                > > Debs
                > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                > > learning
                > > a
                > > > lot form you guys.
                > > >
                > > > Tom Johnson
                > > >
                > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                > > have
                > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
                > > Taft
                > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                > > reading
                > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                > > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                > > into
                > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                > > > probably earlier.
                > > >
                > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                > > but
                > > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
                > > and
                > > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
                > > shops"
                > > > among government employees.
                > > >
                > > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                > > progressive
                > > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                > > come
                > > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                > > on
                > > > the defense.
                > > >
                > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                > > and
                > > > > am
                > > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
                > > advances
                > > > > that
                > > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                > > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
                > > least
                > > in
                > > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                > > the
                > > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                > > > > pious,
                > > > > pro big business president such as Taft
                > > inspired
                > > > > the
                > > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                > > > > reaction
                > > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                > > > >
                > > > > Tom Johnson
                > > > >
                > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
                > > far
                > > > > then the party's message might become only
                > > marketing
                > > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
                > > At
                > > > > the
                > > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
                > > on
                > > > > both
                > > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                > > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                > > his
                > > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                > > miserably
                > > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                > > to
                > >
                > === message truncated ===
              • Ram Lau
                I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that progressive era. :-) Ram
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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                  I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that
                  "progressive" era. :-)

                  Ram
                • Greg Cannon
                  I have vague knowledge of Rand s writings and philosophy. I think they both believed in what they thought of as libertarianism, but had very different views on
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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                    I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                    philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                    thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                    views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                    nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                    were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                    disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                    thing they agreed on was that private property should
                    be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                    would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                    on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                    delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                    condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                    control devices like that weren't legal at the time.

                    I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                    as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                    was she like? For that matter, when did she live?

                    --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

                    > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                    > surely a very
                    > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                    > generation?) I sometimes
                    > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                    > imprisonment.
                    >
                    > Ram
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                    > <gregcannon1@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                    > I
                    > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                    > him.
                    > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                    > 1920,
                    > > though he was still in jail.
                    > >
                    > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                    > use
                    > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                    > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                    > not
                    > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                    > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                    > to
                    > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                    > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                    > were
                    > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                    > her
                    > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                    > general
                    > > than at Wilson himself.
                    > >
                    > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                    > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                    > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                    > > > political
                    > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                    > curious
                    > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                    > Deb's
                    > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                    > attempt
                    > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                    > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                    > last
                    > > > to
                    > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                    > fact
                    > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                    > immediately
                    > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom Johnson
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                    > equality
                    > > > that the original
                    > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                    > > > Supreme
                    > > > Court Chief
                    > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                    > kind
                    > > > of
                    > > > Justice Bush or
                    > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                    > > > bother
                    > > > God when
                    > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                    > > > happen to mankind.
                    > > >
                    > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                    > > > Democratic Party for
                    > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                    > elements
                    > > > that Woodrow
                    > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                    > while
                    > > > the
                    > > > Republican Party
                    > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                    > something
                    > > > totally different
                    > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                    > the
                    > > > BookTV interview
                    > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                    > > > Roosevelt,
                    > > > Taft, and Debs -
                    > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                    > > > readable book:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                    > > >
                    > > > Ram
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                    > > > JOHNSON
                    > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                    > and
                    > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                    > entertained
                    > > > the
                    > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                    > the
                    > > > most
                    > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                    > born
                    > > > into
                    > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                    > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                    > > > machinery
                    > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                    > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                    > puppet
                    > > > of
                    > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                    > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                    > trust-busting. He
                    > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                    > post-presidency,
                    > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                    > also
                    > > > find
                    > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                    > close
                    > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                    > and
                    > > >
                    > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                    > > > before
                    > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                    > the
                    > > > 1912
                    > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                    > 'congenital
                    > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                    > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                    > > > Cspan
                    > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                    > Ram
                    > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                    > she
                    > > > was
                    > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                    > the
                    > > > whole
                    > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                    > the
                    > > > Debs
                    > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                    > > > learning
                    > > > a
                    > > > > lot form you guys.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tom Johnson
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                    > also
                    > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                    > > > have
                    > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                    > the
                    > > > Taft
                    > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                    > > > reading
                    > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                    > began
                    > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                    > Taft
                    > > > into
                    > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                    > though
                    > > > > probably earlier.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                    > of
                    > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                    > term,
                    > > > but
                    >
                    === message truncated ===
                  • Ram Lau
                    Greg, Rand has plenty of fans. They ve even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in her name a decade ago: http://www.aynrand.org/ She s the Milton Friedman of her
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                      Greg,

                      Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in
                      her name a decade ago:

                      http://www.aynrand.org/

                      She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                      "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of reason, rational
                      self-interest, individual rights and free-market capitalism.

                      ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a "cultural
                      renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason, anti-individualism,
                      anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's culture. The major
                      battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism is the
                      educational institutions—high schools, and above all, the
                      universities, where students learn the ideas that shape their lives.

                      Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that historical
                      trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To reverse the
                      current political and economic trends in America and throughout the
                      world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental philosophy."

                      Ram


                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                      > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                      > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                      > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                      > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                      > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                      > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                      > thing they agreed on was that private property should
                      > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                      > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                      > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                      > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                      > condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                      > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                      >
                      > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                      > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                      > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                      >
                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                      > > surely a very
                      > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                      > > generation?) I sometimes
                      > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                      > > imprisonment.
                      > >
                      > > Ram
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                      > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                      > > I
                      > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                      > > him.
                      > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                      > > 1920,
                      > > > though he was still in jail.
                      > > >
                      > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                      > > use
                      > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                      > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                      > > not
                      > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                      > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                      > > to
                      > > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                      > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                      > > were
                      > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                      > > her
                      > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                      > > general
                      > > > than at Wilson himself.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                      > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                      > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                      > > > > political
                      > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                      > > curious
                      > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                      > > Deb's
                      > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                      > > attempt
                      > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                      > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                      > > last
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                      > > fact
                      > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                      > > immediately
                      > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                      > > equality
                      > > > > that the original
                      > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                      > > > > Supreme
                      > > > > Court Chief
                      > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                      > > kind
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > Justice Bush or
                      > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                      > > > > bother
                      > > > > God when
                      > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                      > > > > happen to mankind.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                      > > > > Democratic Party for
                      > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                      > > elements
                      > > > > that Woodrow
                      > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                      > > while
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > Republican Party
                      > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                      > > something
                      > > > > totally different
                      > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                      > > the
                      > > > > BookTV interview
                      > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                      > > > > Roosevelt,
                      > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                      > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                      > > > > readable book:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ram
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                      > > > > JOHNSON
                      > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                      > > and
                      > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                      > > entertained
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                      > > the
                      > > > > most
                      > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                      > > born
                      > > > > into
                      > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                      > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                      > > > > machinery
                      > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                      > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                      > > puppet
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                      > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                      > > trust-busting. He
                      > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                      > > post-presidency,
                      > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                      > > also
                      > > > > find
                      > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                      > > close
                      > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                      > > and
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                      > > > > before
                      > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                      > > the
                      > > > > 1912
                      > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                      > > 'congenital
                      > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                      > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                      > > > > Cspan
                      > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                      > > Ram
                      > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                      > > she
                      > > > > was
                      > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                      > > the
                      > > > > whole
                      > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                      > > the
                      > > > > Debs
                      > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                      > > > > learning
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > > lot form you guys.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                      > > also
                      > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                      > > > > have
                      > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                      > > the
                      > > > > Taft
                      > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                      > > > > reading
                      > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                      > > began
                      > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                      > > Taft
                      > > > > into
                      > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                      > > though
                      > > > > > probably earlier.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                      > > of
                      > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                      > > term,
                      > > > > but
                      > >
                      > === message truncated ===
                    • THOMAS JOHNSON
                      While reading about the Harding administration and the Teapot Dome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I became re-acquainted with Fightin
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                        While reading about the Harding administration and
                        the Teapot Dome
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                        became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                        who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                        Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                        the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                        LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                        committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                        Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                        imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                        administration.
                        Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                        the Iran-Contra scandal
                        ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                        administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                        with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                        Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                        to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                        penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                        according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                        primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                        Iran-Contra in the first place.
                        In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                        term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                        11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                        Leadership Survey
                        http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                        comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                        Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                        How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                        had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.

                        Tom Johnson
                        --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                        ---------------------------------
                        Greg,

                        Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                        Rand Institute in
                        her name a decade ago:

                        http://www.aynrand.org/

                        She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                        "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                        reason, rational
                        self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                        capitalism.

                        ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                        "cultural
                        renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                        anti-individualism,
                        anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                        culture. The major
                        battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                        is the
                        educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                        the
                        universities, where students learn the ideas that
                        shape their lives.

                        Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                        historical
                        trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                        reverse the
                        current political and economic trends in America and
                        throughout the
                        world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                        philosophy."

                        Ram


                        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                        <gregcannon1@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                        > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                        > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                        > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                        were
                        > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                        > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                        > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                        > thing they agreed on was that private property
                        should
                        > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                        Rand
                        > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                        them
                        > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                        She
                        > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                        > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                        birth
                        > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                        >
                        > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                        she
                        > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                        > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                        >
                        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                        > > surely a very
                        > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                        > > generation?) I sometimes
                        > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                        the
                        > > imprisonment.
                        > >
                        > > Ram
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                        Cannon
                        > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                        but
                        > > I
                        > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                        > > him.
                        > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                        > > 1920,
                        > > > though he was still in jail.
                        > > >
                        > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                        > > use
                        > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                        Emma
                        > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                        was
                        > > not
                        > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                        Union
                        > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                        allowed
                        > > to
                        > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                        speeches
                        > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                        > > were
                        > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                        > > her
                        > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                        > > general
                        > > > than at Wilson himself.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                        > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                        > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                        > > > > political
                        > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                        > > curious
                        > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                        > > Deb's
                        > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                        > > attempt
                        > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                        > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                        > > last
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                        > > fact
                        > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                        > > immediately
                        > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                        astounding.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                        > > equality
                        > > > > that the original
                        > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                        > > > > Supreme
                        > > > > Court Chief
                        > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                        > > kind
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > Justice Bush or
                        > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                        > > > > bother
                        > > > > God when
                        > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                        never
                        > > > > happen to mankind.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                        > > > > Democratic Party for
                        > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                        > > elements
                        > > > > that Woodrow
                        > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                        > > while
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > Republican Party
                        > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                        > > something
                        > > > > totally different
                        > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                        of
                        > > the
                        > > > > BookTV interview
                        > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                        > > > > Roosevelt,
                        > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                        > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                        > > > > readable book:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Ram
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                        > > > > JOHNSON
                        > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                        responses
                        > > and
                        > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                        > > entertained
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                        > > the
                        > > > > most
                        > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                        > > born
                        > > > > into
                        > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                        > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                        > > > > machinery
                        > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                        > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                        > > puppet
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                        reading
                        > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                        > > trust-busting. He
                        > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                        > > post-presidency,
                        > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                        > > also
                        > > > > find
                        > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                        > > close
                        > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                        successor),
                        > > and
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                        > > > > before
                        > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in

                        > > the
                        > > > > 1912
                        > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                        > > 'congenital
                        > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                        > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                        Anthony
                        > > > > Cspan
                        > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                        that
                        > > Ram
                        > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                        > > she
                        > > > > was
                        > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                        > > the
                        > > > > whole
                        > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                        interview,
                        > > the
                        > > > > Debs
                        > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                        > > > > learning
                        > > > > a
                        > > > > > lot form you guys.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                        I'd
                        > > also
                        > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                        here
                        > > > > have
                        > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                        > > the
                        > > > > Taft
                        > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                        > > > > reading
                        > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                        > > began
                        > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                        > > Taft
                        > > > > into
                        > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                        > > though
                        > > > > > probably earlier.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                        prosecutions
                        > > of
                        > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                        > > term,
                        > > > > but
                        > >
                        > === message truncated ===




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                      • Greg Cannon
                        I ve also been reading about LaFollette. Here s an interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is from
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                          I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                          interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                          Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                          from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                          Senator.

                          One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                          influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                          night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                          as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                          been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                          thought that the President might listen to him on the
                          subject.
                          "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                          Congress."
                          "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                          President."
                          A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                          the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                          seeing, did not understand that it was already
                          unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                          "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                          said.

                          --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                          > While reading about the Harding administration and
                          > the Teapot Dome
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                          > I
                          > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                          >
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                          > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                          > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                          > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                          > Republican
                          > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                          > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                          > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                          > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                          > administration.
                        • Ram Lau
                          Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
                            Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
                            See below for details:

                            Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
                            Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
                            7/3/2005

                            Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
                            founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
                            died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

                            Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
                            death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
                            Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

                            Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
                            joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
                            U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
                            and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
                            issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
                            go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

                            Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
                            as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
                            (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
                            becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
                            the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

                            An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
                            laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
                            Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
                            Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
                            Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
                            April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

                            He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
                            aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
                            Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
                            establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
                            legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
                            Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
                            Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

                            Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
                            hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
                            Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
                            accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
                            as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
                            attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
                            citizens a right to a clean environment.

                            Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
                            were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
                            program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
                            $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
                            package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
                            program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

                            Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
                            and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

                            He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
                            discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
                            When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
                            issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
                            college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
                            the Vietnam War.

                            On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
                            of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
                            promoting a cleaner Earth.

                            Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
                            schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
                            estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
                            countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
                            activities, organizers said.

                            Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
                            player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
                            and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
                            issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
                            abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

                            He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
                            an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
                            the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
                            Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
                            President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
                            war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
                            appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
                            I need my conscience."

                            The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
                            1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
                            Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
                            M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
                            Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

                            He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
                            degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
                            Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
                            troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
                            lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
                            in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
                            the state's National Guard.

                            Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
                            Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
                            see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
                            stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
                            Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

                            Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
                            nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
                            Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
                            and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
                            Wisconsin all are named for him.

                            When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
                            environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
                            figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
                            Roosevelt.

                            The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
                            experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
                            Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
                            naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
                            Lloyd Wright.

                            Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
                            wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
                            Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
                            four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

                            Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
                            will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

                            The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
                            Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
                            Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
                            Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
                            the Wilderness Society.


                            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                            > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                            > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                            > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                            > Senator.
                            >
                            > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                            > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                            > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                            > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                            > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                            > thought that the President might listen to him on the
                            > subject.
                            > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                            > Congress."
                            > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                            > President."
                            > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                            > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                            > seeing, did not understand that it was already
                            > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                            > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                            > said.
                            >
                            > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                            > > the Teapot Dome
                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                            > > I
                            > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                            > >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                            > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                            > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                            > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                            > > Republican
                            > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                            > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                            > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                            > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                            > > administration.
                          • Ram Lau
                            Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
                              on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
                              deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
                              real reason for the deficit spending.

                              The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
                              most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
                              disrespect.

                              Ram


                              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                              wrote:
                              > While reading about the Harding administration and
                              > the Teapot Dome
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                              > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                              > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                              > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                              > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                              > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                              > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                              > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                              > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                              > administration.
                              > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                              > the Iran-Contra scandal
                              > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                              > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                              > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                              > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                              > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                              > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                              > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                              > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                              > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                              > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                              > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                              > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                              > Leadership Survey
                              > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                              > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                              > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                              > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                              > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
                              >
                              > Tom Johnson
                              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Greg,
                              >
                              > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                              > Rand Institute in
                              > her name a decade ago:
                              >
                              > http://www.aynrand.org/
                              >
                              > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                              >
                              > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                              > reason, rational
                              > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                              > capitalism.
                              >
                              > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                              > "cultural
                              > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                              > anti-individualism,
                              > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                              > culture. The major
                              > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                              > is the
                              > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                              > the
                              > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                              > shape their lives.
                              >
                              > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                              > historical
                              > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                              > reverse the
                              > current political and economic trends in America and
                              > throughout the
                              > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                              > philosophy."
                              >
                              > Ram
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                              > <gregcannon1@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                              > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                              > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                              > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                              > were
                              > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                              > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                              > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                              > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                              > should
                              > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                              > Rand
                              > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                              > them
                              > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                              > She
                              > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                              > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                              > birth
                              > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                              > she
                              > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                              > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                              > >
                              > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                              > > > surely a very
                              > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                              > > > generation?) I sometimes
                              > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                              > the
                              > > > imprisonment.
                              > > >
                              > > > Ram
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                              > Cannon
                              > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                              > but
                              > > > I
                              > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                              > > > him.
                              > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                              > > > 1920,
                              > > > > though he was still in jail.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                              > > > use
                              > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                              > Emma
                              > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                              > was
                              > > > not
                              > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                              > Union
                              > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                              > allowed
                              > > > to
                              > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                              > speeches
                              > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                              > > > were
                              > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                              > > > her
                              > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                              > > > general
                              > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                              > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                              > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                              > > > > > political
                              > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                              > > > curious
                              > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                              > > > Deb's
                              > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                              > > > attempt
                              > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                              > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                              > > > last
                              > > > > > to
                              > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                              > > > fact
                              > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                              > > > immediately
                              > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                              > astounding.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Tom Johnson
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                              > > > equality
                              > > > > > that the original
                              > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                              > > > > > Supreme
                              > > > > > Court Chief
                              > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                              > > > kind
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > Justice Bush or
                              > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                              > > > > > bother
                              > > > > > God when
                              > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                              > never
                              > > > > > happen to mankind.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                              > > > > > Democratic Party for
                              > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                              > > > elements
                              > > > > > that Woodrow
                              > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                              > > > while
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > Republican Party
                              > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                              > > > something
                              > > > > > totally different
                              > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                              > of
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > BookTV interview
                              > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                              > > > > > Roosevelt,
                              > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                              > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                              > > > > > readable book:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Ram
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                              > > > > > JOHNSON
                              > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                              > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                              > responses
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                              > > > entertained
                              > > > > > the
                              > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > most
                              > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                              > > > born
                              > > > > > into
                              > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                              > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                              > > > > > machinery
                              > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                              > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                              > > > puppet
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                              > reading
                              > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                              > > > trust-busting. He
                              > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                              > > > post-presidency,
                              > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                              > > > also
                              > > > > > find
                              > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                              > > > close
                              > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                              > successor),
                              > > > and
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                              > > > > > before
                              > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                              >
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > 1912
                              > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                              > > > 'congenital
                              > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                              > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                              > Anthony
                              > > > > > Cspan
                              > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                              > that
                              > > > Ram
                              > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                              > > > she
                              > > > > > was
                              > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > whole
                              > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                              > interview,
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > Debs
                              > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                              > > > > > learning
                              > > > > > a
                              > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                              > I'd
                              > > > also
                              > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                              > here
                              > > > > > have
                              > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > Taft
                              > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                              > > > > > reading
                              > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                              > > > began
                              > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                              > > > Taft
                              > > > > > into
                              > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                              > > > though
                              > > > > > > probably earlier.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                              > prosecutions
                              > > > of
                              > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                              > > > term,
                              > > > > > but
                              > > >
                              > > === message truncated ===
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
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                            • THOMAS JOHNSON
                              Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
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                                Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




                                --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                ---------------------------------
                                Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                begin my judgement
                                on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                his 8 consecutive
                                deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                spending were not the
                                real reason for the deficit spending.

                                The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                differently, and will
                                most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                contempt and
                                disrespect.

                                Ram


                                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                wrote:
                                > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                > the Teapot Dome
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                I
                                > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                >
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                Republican
                                > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                > administration.
                                > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                and
                                > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                immunity
                                > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                re
                                > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                pursuing
                                > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                long
                                > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                the
                                > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                Presidential
                                > Leadership Survey
                                >
                                http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                > How different things might have been if Bob
                                LaFollette
                                > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                not.
                                >
                                > Tom Johnson
                                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Greg,
                                >
                                > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                > Rand Institute in
                                > her name a decade ago:
                                >
                                > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                >
                                > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                >
                                > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                > reason, rational
                                > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                > capitalism.
                                >
                                > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                a
                                > "cultural
                                > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                > anti-individualism,
                                > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                > culture. The major
                                > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                > is the
                                > educational institutions—high schools, and above
                                all,
                                > the
                                > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                > shape their lives.
                                >
                                > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
                                that
                                > historical
                                > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                > reverse the
                                > current political and economic trends in America and
                                > throughout the
                                > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                fundamental
                                > philosophy."
                                >
                                > Ram
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                they
                                > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                different
                                > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                > were
                                > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                who
                                > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                main
                                > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                > should
                                > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                > Rand
                                > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                > them
                                > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                > She
                                > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                apparently
                                > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                > birth
                                > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                time.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                > she
                                > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                What
                                > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                > >
                                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                Rand,
                                > > > surely a very
                                > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                > the
                                > > > imprisonment.
                                > > >
                                > > > Ram
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                > Cannon
                                > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                > but
                                > > > I
                                > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                pardoned
                                > > > him.
                                > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                in
                                > > > 1920,
                                > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                the
                                > > > use
                                > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                > Emma
                                > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                > was
                                > > > not
                                > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                > Union
                                > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                > allowed
                                > > > to
                                > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                > speeches
                                > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                Thousands
                                > > > were
                                > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                that
                                > > > her
                                > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                > > > general
                                > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                > > > > > political
                                > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                > > > curious
                                > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                that
                                > > > Deb's
                                > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                > > > attempt
                                > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                the
                                > > > last
                                > > > > > to
                                > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                the
                                > > > fact
                                > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                > > > immediately
                                > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                > astounding.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                > > > equality
                                > > > > > that the original
                                > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                superb
                                > > > > > Supreme
                                > > > > > Court Chief
                                > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                what
                                > > > kind
                                > > > > > of
                                > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                only
                                > > > > > bother
                                > > > > > God when
                                > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                > never
                                > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                The
                                > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                > > > elements
                                > > > > > that Woodrow
                                > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                > > > while
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > Republican Party
                                > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                > > > something
                                > > > > > totally different
                                > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                > of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > BookTV interview
                                > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                very
                                > > > > > readable book:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Ram
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                THOMAS
                                > > > > > JOHNSON
                                > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                > responses
                                > > > and
                                > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                > > > entertained
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                was
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > most
                                > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                was
                                > > > born
                                > > > > > into
                                > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                > > > > > machinery
                                > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                > > > puppet
                                > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                > reading
                                > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                > > > trust-busting. He
                                > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                > > > post-presidency,
                                > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                I
                                > > > also
                                > > > > > find
                                > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                > > > close
                                > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                > successor),
                                > > > and
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                together
                                > > > > > before
                                > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                in
                                >
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > 1912
                                > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                > > > 'congenital
                                > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                > Anthony
                                > > > > > Cspan
                                > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                > that
                                > > > Ram
                                > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                that
                                > > > she
                                > > > > > was
                                > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                see
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > whole
                                > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                > interview,
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > Debs
                                > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                > > > > > learning
                                > > > > > a
                                > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                > I'd
                                > > > also
                                > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                > here
                                > > > > > have
                                > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                with
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > Taft
                                > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                I'm
                                > > > > > reading
                                > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                > > > began
                                > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                taking
                                > > > Taft
                                > > > > > into
                                > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                > > > though
                                > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                > prosecutions
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                first
                                > > > term,
                                > > > > > but
                                > > >
                                > > === message truncated ===
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
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                                ---------------------------------
                              • Ram Lau
                                Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                  Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
                                  Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

                                  His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
                                  how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
                                  the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
                                  conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
                                  driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

                                  Ram


                                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                  > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                  > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                  > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                  > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                  > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                  > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                  > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                  > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                  > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                  > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                  > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                  > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                  > begin my judgement
                                  > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                  > his 8 consecutive
                                  > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                  > spending were not the
                                  > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                  >
                                  > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                  > differently, and will
                                  > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                  > contempt and
                                  > disrespect.
                                  >
                                  > Ram
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                  > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                  > > the Teapot Dome
                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                  > I
                                  > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                  > >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                  > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                  > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                  > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                  > Republican
                                  > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                  > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                  > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                  > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                  > > administration.
                                  > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                  > and
                                  > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                  > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                  > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                  > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                  > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                  > immunity
                                  > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                  > re
                                  > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                  > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                  > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                  > pursuing
                                  > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                  > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                  > long
                                  > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                  > the
                                  > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                  > Presidential
                                  > > Leadership Survey
                                  > >
                                  > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                  > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                  > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                  > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                  > LaFollette
                                  > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                  > not.
                                  > >
                                  > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > Greg,
                                  > >
                                  > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                  > > Rand Institute in
                                  > > her name a decade ago:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                  > >
                                  > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                  > >
                                  > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                  > > reason, rational
                                  > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                  > > capitalism.
                                  > >
                                  > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                  > a
                                  > > "cultural
                                  > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                  > > anti-individualism,
                                  > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                  > > culture. The major
                                  > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                  > > is the
                                  > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                  > all,
                                  > > the
                                  > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                  > > shape their lives.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
                                  > that
                                  > > historical
                                  > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                  > > reverse the
                                  > > current political and economic trends in America and
                                  > > throughout the
                                  > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                  > fundamental
                                  > > philosophy."
                                  > >
                                  > > Ram
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                  > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                  > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                  > they
                                  > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                  > different
                                  > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                  > > were
                                  > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                  > who
                                  > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                  > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                  > main
                                  > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                  > > should
                                  > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                  > > Rand
                                  > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                  > > them
                                  > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                  > > She
                                  > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                  > apparently
                                  > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                  > > birth
                                  > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                  > time.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                  > > she
                                  > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                  > What
                                  > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                  > Rand,
                                  > > > > surely a very
                                  > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                  > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                  > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > imprisonment.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Ram
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                  > > Cannon
                                  > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                  > > but
                                  > > > > I
                                  > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                  > pardoned
                                  > > > > him.
                                  > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                  > in
                                  > > > > 1920,
                                  > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                  > the
                                  > > > > use
                                  > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                  > > Emma
                                  > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                  > > was
                                  > > > > not
                                  > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                  > > Union
                                  > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                  > > allowed
                                  > > > > to
                                  > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                  > > speeches
                                  > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                  > Thousands
                                  > > > > were
                                  > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                  > that
                                  > > > > her
                                  > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                  > > > > general
                                  > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                  > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                  > > > > > > political
                                  > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                  > > > > curious
                                  > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                  > that
                                  > > > > Deb's
                                  > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                  > > > > attempt
                                  > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                  > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                  > the
                                  > > > > last
                                  > > > > > > to
                                  > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                  > the
                                  > > > > fact
                                  > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                  > > > > immediately
                                  > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                  > > astounding.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                  > > > > equality
                                  > > > > > > that the original
                                  > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                  > superb
                                  > > > > > > Supreme
                                  > > > > > > Court Chief
                                  > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                  > what
                                  > > > > kind
                                  > > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                  > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                  > only
                                  > > > > > > bother
                                  > > > > > > God when
                                  > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                  > > never
                                  > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                  > The
                                  > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                  > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                  > > > > elements
                                  > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                  > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                  > > > > while
                                  > > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > Republican Party
                                  > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                  > > > > something
                                  > > > > > > totally different
                                  > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                  > > of
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                  > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                  > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                  > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                  > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                  > very
                                  > > > > > > readable book:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Ram
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > THOMAS
                                  > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                  > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                  > > responses
                                  > > > > and
                                  > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                  > > > > entertained
                                  > > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                  > was
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > most
                                  > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                  > was
                                  > > > > born
                                  > > > > > > into
                                  > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                  > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                  > > > > > > machinery
                                  > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                  > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                  > > > > puppet
                                  > > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                  > > reading
                                  > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                  > > > > trust-busting. He
                                  > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                  > > > > post-presidency,
                                  > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                  > I
                                  > > > > also
                                  > > > > > > find
                                  > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                  > > > > close
                                  > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                  > > successor),
                                  > > > > and
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                  > together
                                  > > > > > > before
                                  > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                  > in
                                  > >
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > 1912
                                  > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                  > > > > 'congenital
                                  > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                  > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                  > > Anthony
                                  > > > > > > Cspan
                                  > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                  > > that
                                  > > > > Ram
                                  > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                  > that
                                  > > > > she
                                  > > > > > > was
                                  > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                  > see
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > whole
                                  > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                  > > interview,
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > Debs
                                  > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                  > > > > > > learning
                                  > > > > > > a
                                  > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                  > > I'd
                                  > > > > also
                                  > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                  > > here
                                  > > > > > > have
                                  > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                  > with
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > Taft
                                  > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                  > I'm
                                  > > > > > > reading
                                  > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                  > > > > began
                                  > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                  > taking
                                  > > > > Taft
                                  > > > > > > into
                                  > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                  > > > > though
                                  > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                  > > prosecutions
                                  > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                  > first
                                  > > > > term,
                                  > > > > > > but
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > === message truncated ===
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                  > to:
                                  > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                  > Yahoo!
                                  > > Terms of Service.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms of Service.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                  Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
                                    In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
                                    did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
                                    the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
                                    Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
                                    Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
                                    internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
                                    inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
                                    the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
                                    Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
                                    Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
                                    that increased American military spending by 8% per
                                    annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
                                    effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
                                    growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
                                    spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
                                    annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
                                    rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
                                    1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
                                    continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
                                    returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
                                    out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
                                    were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
                                    Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
                                    the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
                                    in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

                                    That didn't help.

                                    Tom


                                    --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Princess David! He probably said that in his second
                                    term? His
                                    Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
                                    years.

                                    His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
                                    book confessing
                                    how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
                                    economics had damage
                                    the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
                                    true
                                    conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
                                    as immoral as
                                    driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
                                    generations.

                                    Ram


                                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                    <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
                                    pols
                                    > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                    > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                    > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                    > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
                                    what
                                    > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                    > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                    > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
                                    Africa,
                                    > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                    > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                    > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                    > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
                                    where
                                    > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ---------------------------------
                                    > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                    > begin my judgement
                                    > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                    > his 8 consecutive
                                    > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                    > spending were not the
                                    > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                    >
                                    > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                    > differently, and will
                                    > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                    > contempt and
                                    > disrespect.
                                    >
                                    > Ram
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                    JOHNSON
                                    > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > While reading about the Harding administration
                                    and
                                    > > the Teapot Dome
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
                                    scandal,
                                    > I
                                    > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                    > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
                                    in
                                    > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
                                    and
                                    > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                    > Republican
                                    > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                    > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
                                    man.
                                    > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                    > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                    > > administration.
                                    > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                    > and
                                    > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                    > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                    > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                    > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                    > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                    > immunity
                                    > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                    > re
                                    > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
                                    Clinton,
                                    > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
                                    R-Cal,
                                    > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                    > pursuing
                                    > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                    > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                    > long
                                    > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                    > the
                                    > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                    > Presidential
                                    > > Leadership Survey
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                    > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
                                    and
                                    > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                    > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                    > LaFollette
                                    > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                    > not.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Greg,
                                    > >
                                    > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
                                    Ayn
                                    > > Rand Institute in
                                    > > her name a decade ago:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                    > >
                                    > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                    > >
                                    > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                    > > reason, rational
                                    > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                    > > capitalism.
                                    > >
                                    > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
                                    spearheading
                                    > a
                                    > > "cultural
                                    > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                    > > anti-individualism,
                                    > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                    > > culture. The major
                                    > > battleground in this fight for reason and
                                    capitalism
                                    > > is the
                                    > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                    > all,
                                    > > the
                                    > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                    > > shape their lives.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
                                    Objectivism�holds
                                    > that
                                    > > historical
                                    > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
                                    To
                                    > > reverse the
                                    > > current political and economic trends in America
                                    and
                                    > > throughout the
                                    > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                    > fundamental
                                    > > philosophy."
                                    > >
                                    > > Ram
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                    Cannon
                                    > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                    > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                    > they
                                    > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                    > different
                                    > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                    > > were
                                    > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                    > who
                                    > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
                                    always
                                    > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                    > main
                                    > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                    > > should
                                    > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                    > > Rand
                                    > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                    > > them
                                    > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
                                    control.
                                    > > She
                                    > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                    > apparently
                                    > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                    > > birth
                                    > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                    > time.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
                                    Was
                                    > > she
                                    > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                    > What
                                    > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
                                    live?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                    > Rand,
                                    > > > > surely a very
                                    > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                    > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                    > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
                                    with
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > imprisonment.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ram
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                    > > Cannon
                                    > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
                                    prosecution,
                                    > > but
                                    > > > > I
                                    > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                    > pardoned
                                    > > > > him.
                                    > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                    > in
                                    > > > > 1920,
                                    > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                    > the
                                    > > > > use
                                    > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
                                    of
                                    > > Emma
                                    > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
                                    she
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > not
                                    > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                    > > Union
                                    > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                    > > allowed
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                    > > speeches
                                    > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                    > Thousands
                                    > > > > were
                                    > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                    > that
                                    > > > > her
                                    > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                    > > > > general
                                    > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                    > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
                                    a
                                    > > > > > > political
                                    > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
                                    I'm
                                    > > > > curious
                                    > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                    > that
                                    > > > > Deb's
                                    > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
                                    an
                                    > > > > attempt
                                    > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                    > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                    > the
                                    > > > > last
                                    > > > > > > to
                                    > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                    > the
                                    > > > > fact
                                    > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                    > > > > immediately
                                    > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                    > > astounding.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                    > > > > equality
                                    > > > > > > that the original
                                    > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                    > superb
                                    > > > > > > Supreme
                                    > > > > > > Court Chief
                                    > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                    > what
                                    > > > > kind
                                    > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                    > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                    > only
                                    > > > > > > bother
                                    > > > > > > God when
                                    > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                    > > never
                                    > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                    > The
                                    > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                    > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                    > > > > elements
                                    > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                    > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
                                    embraced,
                                    > > > > while
                                    > > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Republican Party
                                    > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                    > > > > something
                                    > > > > > > totally different
                                    > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
                                    transcript
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                    > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                    > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                    > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                    > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                    > very
                                    > > > > > > readable book:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Ram
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > THOMAS
                                    > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                    > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    > > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                    > > responses
                                    > > > > and
                                    > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                    > > > > entertained
                                    > > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                    > was
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > most
                                    > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                    > was
                                    > > > > born
                                    > > > > > > into
                                    > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                    > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
                                    party
                                    > > > > > > machinery
                                    > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
                                    Republican
                                    > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
                                    a
                                    > > > > puppet
                                    > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                    > > reading
                                    > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                    > > > > trust-busting. He
                                    > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                    > > > > post-presidency,
                                    > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
                                    Court.
                                    > I
                                    > > > > also
                                    > > > > > > find
                                    > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
                                    been
                                    > > > > close
                                    > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                    > > successor),
                                    > > > > and
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                    > together
                                    > > > > > > before
                                    > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
                                    that
                                    > in
                                    > >
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > 1912
                                    > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                    > > > > 'congenital
                                    > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                    > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                    > > Anthony
                                    > > > > > > Cspan
                                    > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                    > > that
                                    > > > > Ram
                                    > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                    > that
                                    > > > > she
                                    > > > > > > was
                                    > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                    > see
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > whole
                                    > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                    > > interview,
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Debs
                                    > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
                                    I'm
                                    > > > > > > learning
                                    > > > > > > a
                                    > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
                                    though
                                    > > I'd
                                    > > > > also
                                    > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
                                    anyone
                                    > > here
                                    > > > > > > have
                                    > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                    > with
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Taft
                                    > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                    > I'm
                                    > > > > > > reading
                                    > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
                                    Teddy
                                    > > > > began
                                    > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                    > taking
                                    > > > > Taft
                                    > > > > > > into
                                    > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
                                    1905
                                    > > > > though
                                    > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                    > > prosecutions
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                    > first
                                    > > > > term,
                                    > > > > > > but
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > === message truncated ===
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
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