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  • Ram Lau
    I m quite sure I posted the 1904 Socialist Party Platform last year. I will re-post if you can t search it and want to take a look at it. Also, Debs ran as the
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 13, 2005
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      I'm quite sure I posted the 1904 Socialist Party Platform last year. I
      will re-post if you can't search it and want to take a look at it.
      Also, Debs ran as the Socialist candidate in the presidential election
      of 1904 for the first time. From Wikipedia:

      "He was a candidate for President of the United States in 1900 as a
      member of the Social Democratic Party. He was later the Socialist
      Party of America candidate for President in 1904, 1908, 1912, and
      1920, the final time from prison.

      Debs was, however, largely dismissive of the electoral process: he
      distrusted the political bargains that Victor Berger and other "sewer
      socialists" had made in winning local offices and put much more value
      on the organization of workers, particularly on industrial lines. Yet
      Debs was equally uncomfortable with the apolitical syndicalism of some
      within the Industrial Workers of the World. While he was an early
      supporter of the IWW, he was later appalled by what he considered the
      IWW's irresponsible advocacy of direct action, especially sabotage.

      Although Debs criticized the apolitical "pure and simple unionism" of
      the railroad brotherhoods and the craft unions within the American
      Federation of Labor, he practiced a form of pure and simple socialism
      that underestimated the lasting power of racism, which he viewed as an
      aspect of capitalist exploitation. As Debs wrote in 1903, the party
      had "nothing specific to offer the negro, and we cannot make special
      appeals to all the races. The Socialist party is the party of the
      working class, regardless of color—the whole working class of the
      whole world". Yet Debs was more advanced on this issue than many
      others in the Socialist Party: he denounced racism throughout his
      years as a socialist, refusing to address segregated audiences in the
      South and condemning D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation".

      Debs was a charismatic speaker who called on the vocabulary of
      Christianity and much of the oratorical style of evangelism—even
      though he was generally disdainful of organized religion. As Heywood
      Broun noted in his eulogy for Debs, quoting a fellow Socialist: "That
      old man with the burning eyes actually believes that there can be such
      a thing as the brotherhood of man. And that's not the funniest part of
      it. As long as he's around I believe it myself."

      Debs himself was not wholly comfortable with his prowess as a speaker.
      As he told an audience in Utah in 1910:

      I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone
      else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this
      capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not
      lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I lead you in,
      some one else would lead you out. YOU MUST USE YOUR HEADS AS WELL AS
      YOUR HANDS, and get yourself out of your present condition."

      Ram


      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
      wrote:
      > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
      > then the party's message might become only marketing
      > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
      > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on both
      > accounts. They never fully committed to either
      > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
      > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
      > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
      > the voters.
      >
      > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been reading
      > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished the
      > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
      > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to have
      > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
      > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
      > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial, and
      > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
      > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
      >
      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      >
      > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
      > > I've come to the
      > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter more
      > > than anything
      > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
      > > are willing to go
      > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
      > > Dems are simply
      > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
      > > than bright)
      > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to go,
      > > the elitist
      > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
      > > people don't vote on
      > > the issues.
      > >
      > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act in
      > > 1964: "We have
      > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
      > > WRONG. They had
      > > lost the South for generations. The only times when
      > > the Democratic
      > > candidate could win the South and thus the election
      > > were all
      > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
      > > namely, the
      > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot year
      > > (1992). Then it
      > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
      > > Even worse, both
      > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
      > > attractive the Southern
      > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
      > > support to win.
      > >
      > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
      > > civil rights (from
      > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
      > > freedom - are what
      > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and the
      > > liberals have
      > > never been on their side. That's why the
      > > pro-slavery, anti-women
      > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic bastion
      > > in the pre-FDR
      > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled by
      > > the liberals.
      > >
      > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
      > > past 200 years, and
      > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these liberals
      > > always get what
      > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
      > > platform of the
      > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
      > > far left agenda,
      > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
      > > hopeful in a longer
      > > term perspective even very disturbed in these days.
      > >
      > > Ram
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • THOMAS JOHNSON
      Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
        welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
        notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
        analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
        political privilege, divisive, pious,
        anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
        (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
        nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
        big business, but after doing a little reading
        tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
        seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
        including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
        it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
        friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
        were able to have an amicable lunch together before
        the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
        primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
        liar' were thrown at each other.
        I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
        interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
        alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
        pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
        segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
        profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
        lot form you guys.

        Tom Johnson

        --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:


        ---------------------------------
        I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
        like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
        suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
        administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
        has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
        sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
        his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
        probably earlier.

        Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
        monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
        he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
        he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
        among government employees.

        I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
        movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
        about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
        the defense.

        --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

        > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
        > am
        > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
        > that
        > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
        > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
        > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
        > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
        > pious,
        > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
        > the
        > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
        > reaction
        > could repeat itself a century later.
        >
        > Tom Johnson
        >
        > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
        > then the party's message might become only marketing
        > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
        > the
        > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
        > both
        > accounts. They never fully committed to either
        > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
        > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
        > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
        > the voters.
        >
        > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
        > reading
        > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
        > the
        > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
        > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
        > have
        > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
        > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
        > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
        > and
        > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
        > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
        >
        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
        >
        > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
        > > I've come to the
        > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
        > more
        > > than anything
        > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
        > > are willing to go
        > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
        > > Dems are simply
        > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
        > > than bright)
        > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
        > go,
        > > the elitist
        > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
        > > people don't vote on
        > > the issues.
        > >
        > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
        > in
        > > 1964: "We have
        > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
        > > WRONG. They had
        > > lost the South for generations. The only times
        > when
        > > the Democratic
        > > candidate could win the South and thus the
        > election
        > > were all
        > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
        > > namely, the
        > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
        > year
        > > (1992). Then it
        > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
        > > Even worse, both
        > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
        > > attractive the Southern
        > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
        > > support to win.
        > >
        > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
        > > civil rights (from
        > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
        > > freedom - are what
        > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
        > the
        > > liberals have
        > > never been on their side. That's why the
        > > pro-slavery, anti-women
        > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
        > bastion
        > > in the pre-FDR
        > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
        > by
        > > the liberals.
        > >
        > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
        > > past 200 years, and
        > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
        > liberals
        > > always get what
        > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
        > > platform of the
        > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
        > > far left agenda,
        > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
        > > hopeful in a longer
        > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
        > days.
        > >
        > > Ram
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
        > to:
        > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > Yahoo!
        > Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >



        ---------------------------------
        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


        Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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        ---------------------------------
      • Ram Lau
        Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief Justice. I find it
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
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          Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original
          Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief
          Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of Justice Bush or
          Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother God when
          necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never happen to mankind.

          The 1912 election was a critical election. The Democratic Party for
          the first time experienced the progressive elements that Woodrow
          Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the Republican Party
          began to turn from a center-left party to something totally different
          half a century later. Here is the transcript of the BookTV interview
          with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt, Taft, and Debs -
          The Election That Changed the Country," a very readable book:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

          Ram


          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
          wrote:
          > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
          > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
          > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
          > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
          > political privilege, divisive, pious,
          > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
          > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
          > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
          > big business, but after doing a little reading
          > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
          > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
          > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
          > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
          > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
          > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
          > the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
          > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
          > liar' were thrown at each other.
          > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
          > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
          > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
          > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
          > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
          > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
          > lot form you guys.
          >
          > Tom Johnson
          >
          > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
          > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
          > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
          > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
          > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
          > sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
          > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
          > probably earlier.
          >
          > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
          > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
          > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
          > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
          > among government employees.
          >
          > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
          > movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
          > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
          > the defense.
          >
          > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
          >
          > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
          > > am
          > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
          > > that
          > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
          > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
          > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
          > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
          > > pious,
          > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
          > > the
          > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
          > > reaction
          > > could repeat itself a century later.
          > >
          > > Tom Johnson
          > >
          > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
          > > then the party's message might become only marketing
          > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
          > > the
          > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
          > > both
          > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
          > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
          > > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
          > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
          > > the voters.
          > >
          > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
          > > reading
          > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
          > > the
          > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
          > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
          > > have
          > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
          > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
          > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
          > > and
          > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
          > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
          > >
          > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
          > > > I've come to the
          > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
          > > more
          > > > than anything
          > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
          > > > are willing to go
          > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
          > > > Dems are simply
          > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
          > > > than bright)
          > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
          > > go,
          > > > the elitist
          > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
          > > > people don't vote on
          > > > the issues.
          > > >
          > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
          > > in
          > > > 1964: "We have
          > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
          > > > WRONG. They had
          > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
          > > when
          > > > the Democratic
          > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
          > > election
          > > > were all
          > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
          > > > namely, the
          > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
          > > year
          > > > (1992). Then it
          > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
          > > > Even worse, both
          > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
          > > > attractive the Southern
          > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
          > > > support to win.
          > > >
          > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
          > > > civil rights (from
          > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
          > > > freedom - are what
          > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
          > > the
          > > > liberals have
          > > > never been on their side. That's why the
          > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
          > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
          > > bastion
          > > > in the pre-FDR
          > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
          > > by
          > > > the liberals.
          > > >
          > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
          > > > past 200 years, and
          > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
          > > liberals
          > > > always get what
          > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
          > > > platform of the
          > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
          > > > far left agenda,
          > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
          > > > hopeful in a longer
          > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
          > > days.
          > > >
          > > > Ram
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > >
          > >
          > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
          > > to:
          > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
          > > Yahoo!
          > > Terms of Service.
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
        • THOMAS JOHNSON
          Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I d like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
            interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
            like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
            Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
            like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
            In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
            learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
            and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
            seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
            they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
            although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
            that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
            Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
            the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
            tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
            whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
            incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
            to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
            I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
            leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
            that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
            after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.

            Tom Johnson




            --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


            ---------------------------------
            Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
            that the original
            Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
            Court Chief
            Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
            Justice Bush or
            Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
            God when
            necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
            happen to mankind.

            The 1912 election was a critical election. The
            Democratic Party for
            the first time experienced the progressive elements
            that Woodrow
            Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
            Republican Party
            began to turn from a center-left party to something
            totally different
            half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
            BookTV interview
            with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
            Taft, and Debs -
            The Election That Changed the Country," a very
            readable book:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

            Ram


            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
            <AVRCRDNG@F...>
            wrote:
            > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
            > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
            > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
            > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
            into
            > political privilege, divisive, pious,
            > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
            > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
            > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
            > big business, but after doing a little reading
            > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
            > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
            > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
            find
            > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
            > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
            > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
            > the latter's death , significant in that in the
            1912
            > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
            > liar' were thrown at each other.
            > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
            > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
            > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
            > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
            whole
            > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
            Debs
            > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
            a
            > lot form you guys.
            >
            > Tom Johnson
            >
            > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
            > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
            > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
            > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
            > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
            > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
            into
            > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
            > probably earlier.
            >
            > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
            > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
            but
            > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
            > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
            > among government employees.
            >
            > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
            progressive
            > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
            come
            > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
            on
            > the defense.
            >
            > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
            >
            > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
            and
            > > am
            > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
            > > that
            > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
            > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
            in
            > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
            the
            > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
            > > pious,
            > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
            > > the
            > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
            > > reaction
            > > could repeat itself a century later.
            > >
            > > Tom Johnson
            > >
            > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
            > > then the party's message might become only
            marketing
            > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
            > > the
            > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
            > > both
            > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
            > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
            his
            > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
            miserably
            > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
            to
            > > the voters.
            > >
            > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
            > > reading
            > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
            > > the
            > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
            > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
            > > have
            > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
            > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
            because
            > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
            > > and
            > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
            > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
            > >
            > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > In politics and in my years of studying
            politics,
            > > > I've come to the
            > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
            > > more
            > > > than anything
            > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
            and
            > > > are willing to go
            > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
            The
            > > > Dems are simply
            > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
            less
            > > > than bright)
            > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
            > > go,
            > > > the elitist
            > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
            > > > people don't vote on
            > > > the issues.
            > > >
            > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
            > > in
            > > > 1964: "We have
            > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
            > > > WRONG. They had
            > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
            > > when
            > > > the Democratic
            > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
            > > election
            > > > were all
            > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
            -
            > > > namely, the
            > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
            > > year
            > > > (1992). Then it
            > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
            > > > Even worse, both
            > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
            > > > attractive the Southern
            > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
            enough
            > > > support to win.
            > > >
            > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
            > > > civil rights (from
            > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
            > > > freedom - are what
            > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
            > > the
            > > > liberals have
            > > > never been on their side. That's why the
            > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
            > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
            > > bastion
            > > > in the pre-FDR
            > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
            > > by
            > > > the liberals.
            > > >
            > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
            > > > past 200 years, and
            > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
            > > liberals
            > > > always get what
            > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
            > > > platform of the
            > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
            the
            > > > far left agenda,
            > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
            > > > hopeful in a longer
            > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
            > > days.
            > > >
            > > > Ram
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > >
            > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > > to:
            > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > > Yahoo!
            > > Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            to:
            > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------





            ---------------------------------
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            ---------------------------------
          • Ram Lau
            Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems. Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative, and he was not one of those
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems.
              Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative,
              and he was not one of those orthodox Southern Democrats in his days.
              After all, he became President of Princeton and Governor of New
              Jersey before the Presidency. I like Taft for being real and honest,
              even I think he was a little too passive and conservative as an Ohio
              Republican a century ago. But, to be fair, Taft was just as centrist
              as Wilson.

              The country wanted progressives at a time when the Triangle Factory
              Fire just happened, and the anti-child labor sentiment and women's
              rights movement were fermenting. The 1912 election was all about
              the "America can do better" feelings.

              Ram


              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
              <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              > Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
              > interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
              > like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
              > Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
              > like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
              > In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
              > learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
              > and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
              > seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
              > they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
              > although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
              > that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
              > Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
              > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
              > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
              > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
              > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
              > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
              > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
              > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
              > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
              > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
              >
              > Tom Johnson
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
              > that the original
              > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
              > Court Chief
              > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
              > Justice Bush or
              > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
              > God when
              > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
              > happen to mankind.
              >
              > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
              > Democratic Party for
              > the first time experienced the progressive elements
              > that Woodrow
              > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
              > Republican Party
              > began to turn from a center-left party to something
              > totally different
              > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
              > BookTV interview
              > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
              > Taft, and Debs -
              > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
              > readable book:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
              >
              > Ram
              >
              >
              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
              > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              > wrote:
              > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
              > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
              > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
              > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
              > into
              > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
              > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
              > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
              > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
              > > big business, but after doing a little reading
              > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
              > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
              > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
              > find
              > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
              > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
              > > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
              > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
              > 1912
              > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
              > > liar' were thrown at each other.
              > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
              > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
              > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
              > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
              > whole
              > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
              > Debs
              > > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
              > a
              > > lot form you guys.
              > >
              > > Tom Johnson
              > >
              > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
              > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
              > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
              > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
              > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
              > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
              > into
              > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
              > > probably earlier.
              > >
              > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
              > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
              > but
              > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
              > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
              > > among government employees.
              > >
              > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
              > progressive
              > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
              > come
              > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
              > on
              > > the defense.
              > >
              > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
              > and
              > > > am
              > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
              > > > that
              > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
              > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
              > in
              > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
              > the
              > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
              > > > pious,
              > > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
              > > > the
              > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
              > > > reaction
              > > > could repeat itself a century later.
              > > >
              > > > Tom Johnson
              > > >
              > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
              > > > then the party's message might become only
              > marketing
              > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
              > > > the
              > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
              > > > both
              > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
              > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
              > his
              > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
              > miserably
              > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
              > to
              > > > the voters.
              > > >
              > > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
              > > > reading
              > > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
              > > > the
              > > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
              > > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
              > > > have
              > > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
              > > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
              > because
              > > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
              > > > and
              > > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
              > > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
              > > >
              > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > In politics and in my years of studying
              > politics,
              > > > > I've come to the
              > > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
              > > > more
              > > > > than anything
              > > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
              > and
              > > > > are willing to go
              > > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
              > The
              > > > > Dems are simply
              > > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
              > less
              > > > > than bright)
              > > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
              > > > go,
              > > > > the elitist
              > > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
              > > > > people don't vote on
              > > > > the issues.
              > > > >
              > > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
              > > > in
              > > > > 1964: "We have
              > > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
              > > > > WRONG. They had
              > > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
              > > > when
              > > > > the Democratic
              > > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
              > > > election
              > > > > were all
              > > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
              > -
              > > > > namely, the
              > > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
              > > > year
              > > > > (1992). Then it
              > > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
              > > > > Even worse, both
              > > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
              > > > > attractive the Southern
              > > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
              > enough
              > > > > support to win.
              > > > >
              > > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
              > > > > civil rights (from
              > > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
              > > > > freedom - are what
              > > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
              > > > the
              > > > > liberals have
              > > > > never been on their side. That's why the
              > > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
              > > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
              > > > bastion
              > > > > in the pre-FDR
              > > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
              > > > by
              > > > > the liberals.
              > > > >
              > > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
              > > > > past 200 years, and
              > > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
              > > > liberals
              > > > > always get what
              > > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
              > > > > platform of the
              > > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
              > the
              > > > > far left agenda,
              > > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
              > > > > hopeful in a longer
              > > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
              > > > days.
              > > > >
              > > > > Ram
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              > > > to:
              > > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > > > Yahoo!
              > > > Terms of Service.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > >
              > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              > to:
              > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > Yahoo!
              > > Terms of Service.
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
            • Greg Cannon
              I don t know the details of Debs prosecution, but I recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him. And Debs did still get about a million votes in
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
                recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
                And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
                though he was still in jail.

                The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
                of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
                only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
                return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
                deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
                anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
                than at Wilson himself.

                --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                > political
                > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
                > to
                > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                >
                > Tom Johnson
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                > that the original
                > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                > Supreme
                > Court Chief
                > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
                > of
                > Justice Bush or
                > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                > bother
                > God when
                > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                > happen to mankind.
                >
                > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                > Democratic Party for
                > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                > that Woodrow
                > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
                > the
                > Republican Party
                > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                > totally different
                > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                > BookTV interview
                > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                > Roosevelt,
                > Taft, and Debs -
                > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                > readable book:
                >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                >
                > Ram
                >
                >
                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                > JOHNSON
                > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                > wrote:
                > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
                > the
                > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
                > most
                > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                > into
                > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                > machinery
                > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
                > of
                > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                > find
                > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                >
                > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                > before
                > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                > 1912
                > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                > Cspan
                > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
                > was
                > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                > whole
                > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                > Debs
                > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                > learning
                > a
                > > lot form you guys.
                > >
                > > Tom Johnson
                > >
                > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                > have
                > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
                > Taft
                > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                > reading
                > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                > into
                > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                > > probably earlier.
                > >
                > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                > but
                > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
                > and
                > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
                > shops"
                > > among government employees.
                > >
                > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                > progressive
                > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                > come
                > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                > on
                > > the defense.
                > >
                > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                > and
                > > > am
                > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
                > advances
                > > > that
                > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
                > least
                > in
                > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                > the
                > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                > > > pious,
                > > > pro big business president such as Taft
                > inspired
                > > > the
                > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                > > > reaction
                > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                > > >
                > > > Tom Johnson
                > > >
                > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
                > far
                > > > then the party's message might become only
                > marketing
                > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
                > At
                > > > the
                > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
                > on
                > > > both
                > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                > his
                > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                > miserably
                > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                > to
                >
                === message truncated ===
              • Ram Lau
                Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes wonder if the Red Scare had
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very
                  different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes
                  wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the imprisonment.

                  Ram


                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
                  > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
                  > And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
                  > though he was still in jail.
                  >
                  > The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
                  > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                  > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
                  > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                  > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
                  > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                  > against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
                  > deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
                  > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
                  > than at Wilson himself.
                  >
                  > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                  > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                  > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                  > > political
                  > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                  > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                  > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                  > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                  > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
                  > > to
                  > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                  > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                  > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                  > >
                  > > Tom Johnson
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                  > > that the original
                  > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                  > > Supreme
                  > > Court Chief
                  > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
                  > > of
                  > > Justice Bush or
                  > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                  > > bother
                  > > God when
                  > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                  > > happen to mankind.
                  > >
                  > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                  > > Democratic Party for
                  > > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                  > > that Woodrow
                  > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
                  > > the
                  > > Republican Party
                  > > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                  > > totally different
                  > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                  > > BookTV interview
                  > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                  > > Roosevelt,
                  > > Taft, and Debs -
                  > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                  > > readable book:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                  > >
                  > > Ram
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                  > > JOHNSON
                  > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                  > > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
                  > > the
                  > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
                  > > most
                  > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                  > > into
                  > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                  > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                  > > machinery
                  > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                  > > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
                  > > of
                  > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                  > > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                  > > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                  > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                  > > find
                  > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                  > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                  > >
                  > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                  > > before
                  > > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                  > > 1912
                  > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                  > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                  > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                  > > Cspan
                  > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                  > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
                  > > was
                  > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                  > > whole
                  > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                  > > Debs
                  > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                  > > learning
                  > > a
                  > > > lot form you guys.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom Johnson
                  > > >
                  > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                  > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                  > > have
                  > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
                  > > Taft
                  > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                  > > reading
                  > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                  > > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                  > > into
                  > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                  > > > probably earlier.
                  > > >
                  > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                  > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                  > > but
                  > > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
                  > > and
                  > > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
                  > > shops"
                  > > > among government employees.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                  > > progressive
                  > > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                  > > come
                  > > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                  > > on
                  > > > the defense.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                  > > and
                  > > > > am
                  > > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
                  > > advances
                  > > > > that
                  > > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                  > > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
                  > > least
                  > > in
                  > > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                  > > the
                  > > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                  > > > > pious,
                  > > > > pro big business president such as Taft
                  > > inspired
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                  > > > > reaction
                  > > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Tom Johnson
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
                  > > far
                  > > > > then the party's message might become only
                  > > marketing
                  > > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
                  > > At
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
                  > > on
                  > > > > both
                  > > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                  > > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                  > > his
                  > > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                  > > miserably
                  > > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                  > > to
                  > >
                  > === message truncated ===
                • Ram Lau
                  I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that progressive era. :-) Ram
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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                    I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that
                    "progressive" era. :-)

                    Ram
                  • Greg Cannon
                    I have vague knowledge of Rand s writings and philosophy. I think they both believed in what they thought of as libertarianism, but had very different views on
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                      philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                      thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                      views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                      nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                      were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                      disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                      thing they agreed on was that private property should
                      be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                      would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                      on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                      delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                      condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                      control devices like that weren't legal at the time.

                      I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                      as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                      was she like? For that matter, when did she live?

                      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

                      > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                      > surely a very
                      > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                      > generation?) I sometimes
                      > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                      > imprisonment.
                      >
                      > Ram
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                      > <gregcannon1@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                      > I
                      > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                      > him.
                      > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                      > 1920,
                      > > though he was still in jail.
                      > >
                      > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                      > use
                      > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                      > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                      > not
                      > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                      > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                      > to
                      > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                      > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                      > were
                      > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                      > her
                      > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                      > general
                      > > than at Wilson himself.
                      > >
                      > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                      > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                      > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                      > > > political
                      > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                      > curious
                      > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                      > Deb's
                      > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                      > attempt
                      > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                      > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                      > last
                      > > > to
                      > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                      > fact
                      > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                      > immediately
                      > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                      > > >
                      > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                      > equality
                      > > > that the original
                      > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                      > > > Supreme
                      > > > Court Chief
                      > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                      > kind
                      > > > of
                      > > > Justice Bush or
                      > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                      > > > bother
                      > > > God when
                      > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                      > > > happen to mankind.
                      > > >
                      > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                      > > > Democratic Party for
                      > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                      > elements
                      > > > that Woodrow
                      > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                      > while
                      > > > the
                      > > > Republican Party
                      > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                      > something
                      > > > totally different
                      > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                      > the
                      > > > BookTV interview
                      > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                      > > > Roosevelt,
                      > > > Taft, and Debs -
                      > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                      > > > readable book:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                      > > >
                      > > > Ram
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                      > > > JOHNSON
                      > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                      > and
                      > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                      > entertained
                      > > > the
                      > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                      > the
                      > > > most
                      > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                      > born
                      > > > into
                      > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                      > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                      > > > machinery
                      > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                      > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                      > puppet
                      > > > of
                      > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                      > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                      > trust-busting. He
                      > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                      > post-presidency,
                      > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                      > also
                      > > > find
                      > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                      > close
                      > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                      > and
                      > > >
                      > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                      > > > before
                      > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                      > the
                      > > > 1912
                      > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                      > 'congenital
                      > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                      > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                      > > > Cspan
                      > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                      > Ram
                      > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                      > she
                      > > > was
                      > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                      > the
                      > > > whole
                      > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                      > the
                      > > > Debs
                      > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                      > > > learning
                      > > > a
                      > > > > lot form you guys.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tom Johnson
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                      > also
                      > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                      > > > have
                      > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                      > the
                      > > > Taft
                      > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                      > > > reading
                      > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                      > began
                      > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                      > Taft
                      > > > into
                      > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                      > though
                      > > > > probably earlier.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                      > of
                      > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                      > term,
                      > > > but
                      >
                      === message truncated ===
                    • Ram Lau
                      Greg, Rand has plenty of fans. They ve even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in her name a decade ago: http://www.aynrand.org/ She s the Milton Friedman of her
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                        Greg,

                        Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in
                        her name a decade ago:

                        http://www.aynrand.org/

                        She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                        "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of reason, rational
                        self-interest, individual rights and free-market capitalism.

                        ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a "cultural
                        renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason, anti-individualism,
                        anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's culture. The major
                        battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism is the
                        educational institutions—high schools, and above all, the
                        universities, where students learn the ideas that shape their lives.

                        Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that historical
                        trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To reverse the
                        current political and economic trends in America and throughout the
                        world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental philosophy."

                        Ram


                        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                        > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                        > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                        > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                        > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                        > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                        > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                        > thing they agreed on was that private property should
                        > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                        > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                        > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                        > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                        > condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                        > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                        >
                        > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                        > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                        > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                        >
                        > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                        > > surely a very
                        > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                        > > generation?) I sometimes
                        > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                        > > imprisonment.
                        > >
                        > > Ram
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                        > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                        > > I
                        > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                        > > him.
                        > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                        > > 1920,
                        > > > though he was still in jail.
                        > > >
                        > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                        > > use
                        > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                        > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                        > > not
                        > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                        > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                        > > to
                        > > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                        > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                        > > were
                        > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                        > > her
                        > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                        > > general
                        > > > than at Wilson himself.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                        > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                        > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                        > > > > political
                        > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                        > > curious
                        > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                        > > Deb's
                        > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                        > > attempt
                        > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                        > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                        > > last
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                        > > fact
                        > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                        > > immediately
                        > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                        > > equality
                        > > > > that the original
                        > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                        > > > > Supreme
                        > > > > Court Chief
                        > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                        > > kind
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > Justice Bush or
                        > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                        > > > > bother
                        > > > > God when
                        > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                        > > > > happen to mankind.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                        > > > > Democratic Party for
                        > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                        > > elements
                        > > > > that Woodrow
                        > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                        > > while
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > Republican Party
                        > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                        > > something
                        > > > > totally different
                        > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                        > > the
                        > > > > BookTV interview
                        > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                        > > > > Roosevelt,
                        > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                        > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                        > > > > readable book:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Ram
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                        > > > > JOHNSON
                        > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                        > > and
                        > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                        > > entertained
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                        > > the
                        > > > > most
                        > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                        > > born
                        > > > > into
                        > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                        > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                        > > > > machinery
                        > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                        > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                        > > puppet
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                        > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                        > > trust-busting. He
                        > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                        > > post-presidency,
                        > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                        > > also
                        > > > > find
                        > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                        > > close
                        > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                        > > and
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                        > > > > before
                        > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                        > > the
                        > > > > 1912
                        > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                        > > 'congenital
                        > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                        > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                        > > > > Cspan
                        > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                        > > Ram
                        > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                        > > she
                        > > > > was
                        > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                        > > the
                        > > > > whole
                        > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                        > > the
                        > > > > Debs
                        > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                        > > > > learning
                        > > > > a
                        > > > > > lot form you guys.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tom Johnson
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                        > > also
                        > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                        > > > > have
                        > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                        > > the
                        > > > > Taft
                        > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                        > > > > reading
                        > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                        > > began
                        > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                        > > Taft
                        > > > > into
                        > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                        > > though
                        > > > > > probably earlier.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                        > > of
                        > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                        > > term,
                        > > > > but
                        > >
                        > === message truncated ===
                      • THOMAS JOHNSON
                        While reading about the Harding administration and the Teapot Dome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I became re-acquainted with Fightin
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                          While reading about the Harding administration and
                          the Teapot Dome
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                          became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                          who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                          Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                          the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                          LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                          committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                          Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                          imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                          administration.
                          Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                          the Iran-Contra scandal
                          ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                          administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                          with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                          Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                          to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                          penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                          according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                          primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                          Iran-Contra in the first place.
                          In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                          term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                          11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                          Leadership Survey
                          http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                          comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                          Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                          How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                          had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.

                          Tom Johnson
                          --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                          ---------------------------------
                          Greg,

                          Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                          Rand Institute in
                          her name a decade ago:

                          http://www.aynrand.org/

                          She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                          "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                          reason, rational
                          self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                          capitalism.

                          ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                          "cultural
                          renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                          anti-individualism,
                          anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                          culture. The major
                          battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                          is the
                          educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                          the
                          universities, where students learn the ideas that
                          shape their lives.

                          Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                          historical
                          trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                          reverse the
                          current political and economic trends in America and
                          throughout the
                          world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                          philosophy."

                          Ram


                          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                          <gregcannon1@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                          > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                          > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                          > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                          were
                          > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                          > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                          > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                          > thing they agreed on was that private property
                          should
                          > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                          Rand
                          > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                          them
                          > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                          She
                          > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                          > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                          birth
                          > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                          >
                          > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                          she
                          > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                          > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                          >
                          > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                          > > surely a very
                          > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                          > > generation?) I sometimes
                          > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                          the
                          > > imprisonment.
                          > >
                          > > Ram
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                          Cannon
                          > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                          but
                          > > I
                          > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                          > > him.
                          > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                          > > 1920,
                          > > > though he was still in jail.
                          > > >
                          > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                          > > use
                          > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                          Emma
                          > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                          was
                          > > not
                          > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                          Union
                          > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                          allowed
                          > > to
                          > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                          speeches
                          > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                          > > were
                          > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                          > > her
                          > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                          > > general
                          > > > than at Wilson himself.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                          > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                          > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                          > > > > political
                          > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                          > > curious
                          > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                          > > Deb's
                          > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                          > > attempt
                          > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                          > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                          > > last
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                          > > fact
                          > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                          > > immediately
                          > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                          astounding.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tom Johnson
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                          > > equality
                          > > > > that the original
                          > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                          > > > > Supreme
                          > > > > Court Chief
                          > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                          > > kind
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > Justice Bush or
                          > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                          > > > > bother
                          > > > > God when
                          > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                          never
                          > > > > happen to mankind.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                          > > > > Democratic Party for
                          > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                          > > elements
                          > > > > that Woodrow
                          > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                          > > while
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > Republican Party
                          > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                          > > something
                          > > > > totally different
                          > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                          of
                          > > the
                          > > > > BookTV interview
                          > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                          > > > > Roosevelt,
                          > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                          > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                          > > > > readable book:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Ram
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                          > > > > JOHNSON
                          > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                          responses
                          > > and
                          > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                          > > entertained
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                          > > the
                          > > > > most
                          > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                          > > born
                          > > > > into
                          > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                          > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                          > > > > machinery
                          > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                          > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                          > > puppet
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                          reading
                          > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                          > > trust-busting. He
                          > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                          > > post-presidency,
                          > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                          > > also
                          > > > > find
                          > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                          > > close
                          > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                          successor),
                          > > and
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                          > > > > before
                          > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in

                          > > the
                          > > > > 1912
                          > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                          > > 'congenital
                          > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                          > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                          Anthony
                          > > > > Cspan
                          > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                          that
                          > > Ram
                          > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                          > > she
                          > > > > was
                          > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                          > > the
                          > > > > whole
                          > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                          interview,
                          > > the
                          > > > > Debs
                          > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                          > > > > learning
                          > > > > a
                          > > > > > lot form you guys.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Tom Johnson
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                          I'd
                          > > also
                          > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                          here
                          > > > > have
                          > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                          > > the
                          > > > > Taft
                          > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                          > > > > reading
                          > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                          > > began
                          > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                          > > Taft
                          > > > > into
                          > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                          > > though
                          > > > > > probably earlier.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                          prosecutions
                          > > of
                          > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                          > > term,
                          > > > > but
                          > >
                          > === message truncated ===




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                        • Greg Cannon
                          I ve also been reading about LaFollette. Here s an interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is from
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                            interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                            Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                            from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                            Senator.

                            One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                            influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                            night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                            as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                            been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                            thought that the President might listen to him on the
                            subject.
                            "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                            Congress."
                            "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                            President."
                            A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                            the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                            seeing, did not understand that it was already
                            unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                            "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                            said.

                            --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                            > While reading about the Harding administration and
                            > the Teapot Dome
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                            > I
                            > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                            >
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                            > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                            > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                            > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                            > Republican
                            > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                            > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                            > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                            > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                            > administration.
                          • Ram Lau
                            Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
                              Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
                              See below for details:

                              Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
                              Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
                              7/3/2005

                              Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
                              founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
                              died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

                              Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
                              death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
                              Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

                              Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
                              joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
                              U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
                              and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
                              issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
                              go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

                              Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
                              as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
                              (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
                              becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
                              the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

                              An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
                              laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
                              Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
                              Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
                              Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
                              April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

                              He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
                              aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
                              Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
                              establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
                              legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
                              Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
                              Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

                              Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
                              hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
                              Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
                              accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
                              as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
                              attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
                              citizens a right to a clean environment.

                              Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
                              were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
                              program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
                              $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
                              package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
                              program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

                              Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
                              and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

                              He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
                              discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
                              When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
                              issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
                              college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
                              the Vietnam War.

                              On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
                              of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
                              promoting a cleaner Earth.

                              Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
                              schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
                              estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
                              countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
                              activities, organizers said.

                              Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
                              player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
                              and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
                              issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
                              abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

                              He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
                              an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
                              the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
                              Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
                              President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
                              war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
                              appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
                              I need my conscience."

                              The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
                              1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
                              Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
                              M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
                              Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

                              He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
                              degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
                              Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
                              troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
                              lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
                              in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
                              the state's National Guard.

                              Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
                              Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
                              see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
                              stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
                              Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

                              Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
                              nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
                              Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
                              and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
                              Wisconsin all are named for him.

                              When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
                              environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
                              figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
                              Roosevelt.

                              The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
                              experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
                              Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
                              naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
                              Lloyd Wright.

                              Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
                              wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
                              Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
                              four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

                              Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
                              will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

                              The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
                              Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
                              Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
                              Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
                              the Wilderness Society.


                              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                              > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                              > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                              > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                              > Senator.
                              >
                              > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                              > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                              > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                              > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                              > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                              > thought that the President might listen to him on the
                              > subject.
                              > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                              > Congress."
                              > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                              > President."
                              > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                              > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                              > seeing, did not understand that it was already
                              > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                              > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                              > said.
                              >
                              > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                              > > the Teapot Dome
                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                              > > I
                              > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                              > >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                              > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                              > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                              > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                              > > Republican
                              > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                              > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                              > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                              > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                              > > administration.
                            • Ram Lau
                              Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
                                on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
                                deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
                                real reason for the deficit spending.

                                The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
                                most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
                                disrespect.

                                Ram


                                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                wrote:
                                > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                > the Teapot Dome
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                                > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                                > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                > administration.
                                > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                                > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                                > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                                > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                                > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                                > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                                > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                                > Leadership Survey
                                > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                                > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
                                >
                                > Tom Johnson
                                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Greg,
                                >
                                > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                > Rand Institute in
                                > her name a decade ago:
                                >
                                > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                >
                                > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                >
                                > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                > reason, rational
                                > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                > capitalism.
                                >
                                > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                                > "cultural
                                > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                > anti-individualism,
                                > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                > culture. The major
                                > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                > is the
                                > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                                > the
                                > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                > shape their lives.
                                >
                                > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                                > historical
                                > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                > reverse the
                                > current political and economic trends in America and
                                > throughout the
                                > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                                > philosophy."
                                >
                                > Ram
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                                > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                                > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                > were
                                > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                                > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                                > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                > should
                                > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                > Rand
                                > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                > them
                                > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                > She
                                > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                                > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                > birth
                                > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                > she
                                > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                                > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                > >
                                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                                > > > surely a very
                                > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                > the
                                > > > imprisonment.
                                > > >
                                > > > Ram
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                > Cannon
                                > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                > but
                                > > > I
                                > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                                > > > him.
                                > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                                > > > 1920,
                                > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                                > > > use
                                > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                > Emma
                                > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                > was
                                > > > not
                                > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                > Union
                                > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                > allowed
                                > > > to
                                > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                > speeches
                                > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                                > > > were
                                > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                                > > > her
                                > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                > > > general
                                > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                > > > > > political
                                > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                > > > curious
                                > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                                > > > Deb's
                                > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                > > > attempt
                                > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                                > > > last
                                > > > > > to
                                > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                                > > > fact
                                > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                > > > immediately
                                > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                > astounding.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                > > > equality
                                > > > > > that the original
                                > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                                > > > > > Supreme
                                > > > > > Court Chief
                                > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                                > > > kind
                                > > > > > of
                                > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                                > > > > > bother
                                > > > > > God when
                                > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                > never
                                > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                                > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                > > > elements
                                > > > > > that Woodrow
                                > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                > > > while
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > Republican Party
                                > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                > > > something
                                > > > > > totally different
                                > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                > of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > BookTV interview
                                > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                                > > > > > readable book:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Ram
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                > > > > > JOHNSON
                                > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                > responses
                                > > > and
                                > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                > > > entertained
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > most
                                > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                                > > > born
                                > > > > > into
                                > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                > > > > > machinery
                                > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                > > > puppet
                                > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                > reading
                                > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                > > > trust-busting. He
                                > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                > > > post-presidency,
                                > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                                > > > also
                                > > > > > find
                                > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                > > > close
                                > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                > successor),
                                > > > and
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                                > > > > > before
                                > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                                >
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > 1912
                                > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                > > > 'congenital
                                > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                > Anthony
                                > > > > > Cspan
                                > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                > that
                                > > > Ram
                                > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                                > > > she
                                > > > > > was
                                > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > whole
                                > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                > interview,
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > Debs
                                > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                > > > > > learning
                                > > > > > a
                                > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                > I'd
                                > > > also
                                > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                > here
                                > > > > > have
                                > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > Taft
                                > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                                > > > > > reading
                                > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                > > > began
                                > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                                > > > Taft
                                > > > > > into
                                > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                > > > though
                                > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                > prosecutions
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                                > > > term,
                                > > > > > but
                                > > >
                                > > === message truncated ===
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
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                              • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
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                                  Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                  totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                  Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                  replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                  passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                  did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                  expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                  Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                  going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                  "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                  Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                  un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                  he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




                                  --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                  begin my judgement
                                  on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                  his 8 consecutive
                                  deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                  spending were not the
                                  real reason for the deficit spending.

                                  The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                  differently, and will
                                  most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                  contempt and
                                  disrespect.

                                  Ram


                                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                  <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                  > the Teapot Dome
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                  I
                                  > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                  >
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                  > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                  > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                  > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                  Republican
                                  > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                  > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                  > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                  > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                  > administration.
                                  > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                  and
                                  > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                  > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                  > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                  > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                  > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                  immunity
                                  > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                  re
                                  > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                  > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                  > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                  pursuing
                                  > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                  > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                  long
                                  > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                  the
                                  > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                  Presidential
                                  > Leadership Survey
                                  >
                                  http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                  > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                  > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                  > How different things might have been if Bob
                                  LaFollette
                                  > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                  not.
                                  >
                                  > Tom Johnson
                                  > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Greg,
                                  >
                                  > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                  > Rand Institute in
                                  > her name a decade ago:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                  >
                                  > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                  >
                                  > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                  > reason, rational
                                  > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                  > capitalism.
                                  >
                                  > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                  a
                                  > "cultural
                                  > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                  > anti-individualism,
                                  > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                  > culture. The major
                                  > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                  > is the
                                  > educational institutions—high schools, and above
                                  all,
                                  > the
                                  > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                  > shape their lives.
                                  >
                                  > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
                                  that
                                  > historical
                                  > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                  > reverse the
                                  > current political and economic trends in America and
                                  > throughout the
                                  > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                  fundamental
                                  > philosophy."
                                  >
                                  > Ram
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                  > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                  > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                  they
                                  > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                  different
                                  > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                  > were
                                  > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                  who
                                  > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                  > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                  main
                                  > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                  > should
                                  > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                  > Rand
                                  > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                  > them
                                  > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                  > She
                                  > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                  apparently
                                  > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                  > birth
                                  > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                  time.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                  > she
                                  > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                  What
                                  > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                  Rand,
                                  > > > surely a very
                                  > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                  > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                  > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                  > the
                                  > > > imprisonment.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ram
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                  > Cannon
                                  > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                  > but
                                  > > > I
                                  > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                  pardoned
                                  > > > him.
                                  > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                  in
                                  > > > 1920,
                                  > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                  the
                                  > > > use
                                  > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                  > Emma
                                  > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                  > was
                                  > > > not
                                  > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                  > Union
                                  > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                  > allowed
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                  > speeches
                                  > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                  Thousands
                                  > > > were
                                  > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                  that
                                  > > > her
                                  > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                  > > > general
                                  > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                  > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                  > > > > > political
                                  > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                  > > > curious
                                  > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                  that
                                  > > > Deb's
                                  > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                  > > > attempt
                                  > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                  > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                  the
                                  > > > last
                                  > > > > > to
                                  > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                  the
                                  > > > fact
                                  > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                  > > > immediately
                                  > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                  > astounding.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                  > > > equality
                                  > > > > > that the original
                                  > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                  superb
                                  > > > > > Supreme
                                  > > > > > Court Chief
                                  > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                  what
                                  > > > kind
                                  > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                  > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                  only
                                  > > > > > bother
                                  > > > > > God when
                                  > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                  > never
                                  > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                  The
                                  > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                  > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                  > > > elements
                                  > > > > > that Woodrow
                                  > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                  > > > while
                                  > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > Republican Party
                                  > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                  > > > something
                                  > > > > > totally different
                                  > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                  > of
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > BookTV interview
                                  > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                  > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                  > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                  > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                  very
                                  > > > > > readable book:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Ram
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                  THOMAS
                                  > > > > > JOHNSON
                                  > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                  > responses
                                  > > > and
                                  > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                  > > > entertained
                                  > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                  was
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > most
                                  > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                  was
                                  > > > born
                                  > > > > > into
                                  > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                  > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                  > > > > > machinery
                                  > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                  > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                  > > > puppet
                                  > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                  > reading
                                  > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                  > > > trust-busting. He
                                  > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                  > > > post-presidency,
                                  > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                  I
                                  > > > also
                                  > > > > > find
                                  > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                  > > > close
                                  > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                  > successor),
                                  > > > and
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                  together
                                  > > > > > before
                                  > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                  in
                                  >
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > 1912
                                  > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                  > > > 'congenital
                                  > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                  > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                  > Anthony
                                  > > > > > Cspan
                                  > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                  > that
                                  > > > Ram
                                  > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                  that
                                  > > > she
                                  > > > > > was
                                  > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                  see
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > whole
                                  > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                  > interview,
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > Debs
                                  > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                  > > > > > learning
                                  > > > > > a
                                  > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                  > I'd
                                  > > > also
                                  > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                  > here
                                  > > > > > have
                                  > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                  with
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > Taft
                                  > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                  I'm
                                  > > > > > reading
                                  > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                  > > > began
                                  > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                  taking
                                  > > > Taft
                                  > > > > > into
                                  > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                  > > > though
                                  > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                  > prosecutions
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                  first
                                  > > > term,
                                  > > > > > but
                                  > > >
                                  > > === message truncated ===
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Ram Lau
                                  Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
                                    Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

                                    His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
                                    how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
                                    the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
                                    conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
                                    driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

                                    Ram


                                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                    > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                    > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                    > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                    > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                    > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                    > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                    > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                    > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                    > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                    > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                    > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                    > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ---------------------------------
                                    > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                    > begin my judgement
                                    > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                    > his 8 consecutive
                                    > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                    > spending were not the
                                    > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                    >
                                    > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                    > differently, and will
                                    > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                    > contempt and
                                    > disrespect.
                                    >
                                    > Ram
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                    > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                    > > the Teapot Dome
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                    > I
                                    > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                    > >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                    > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                    > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                    > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                    > Republican
                                    > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                    > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                    > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                    > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                    > > administration.
                                    > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                    > and
                                    > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                    > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                    > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                    > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                    > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                    > immunity
                                    > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                    > re
                                    > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                    > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                    > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                    > pursuing
                                    > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                    > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                    > long
                                    > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                    > the
                                    > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                    > Presidential
                                    > > Leadership Survey
                                    > >
                                    > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                    > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                    > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                    > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                    > LaFollette
                                    > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                    > not.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Greg,
                                    > >
                                    > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                    > > Rand Institute in
                                    > > her name a decade ago:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                    > >
                                    > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                    > >
                                    > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                    > > reason, rational
                                    > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                    > > capitalism.
                                    > >
                                    > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                    > a
                                    > > "cultural
                                    > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                    > > anti-individualism,
                                    > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                    > > culture. The major
                                    > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                    > > is the
                                    > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                    > all,
                                    > > the
                                    > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                    > > shape their lives.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
                                    > that
                                    > > historical
                                    > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                    > > reverse the
                                    > > current political and economic trends in America and
                                    > > throughout the
                                    > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                    > fundamental
                                    > > philosophy."
                                    > >
                                    > > Ram
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                    > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                    > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                    > they
                                    > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                    > different
                                    > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                    > > were
                                    > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                    > who
                                    > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                    > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                    > main
                                    > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                    > > should
                                    > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                    > > Rand
                                    > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                    > > them
                                    > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                    > > She
                                    > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                    > apparently
                                    > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                    > > birth
                                    > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                    > time.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                    > > she
                                    > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                    > What
                                    > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                    > Rand,
                                    > > > > surely a very
                                    > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                    > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                    > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > imprisonment.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ram
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                    > > Cannon
                                    > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                    > > but
                                    > > > > I
                                    > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                    > pardoned
                                    > > > > him.
                                    > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                    > in
                                    > > > > 1920,
                                    > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                    > the
                                    > > > > use
                                    > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                    > > Emma
                                    > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > not
                                    > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                    > > Union
                                    > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                    > > allowed
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                    > > speeches
                                    > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                    > Thousands
                                    > > > > were
                                    > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                    > that
                                    > > > > her
                                    > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                    > > > > general
                                    > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                    > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                    > > > > > > political
                                    > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                    > > > > curious
                                    > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                    > that
                                    > > > > Deb's
                                    > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                    > > > > attempt
                                    > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                    > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                    > the
                                    > > > > last
                                    > > > > > > to
                                    > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                    > the
                                    > > > > fact
                                    > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                    > > > > immediately
                                    > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                    > > astounding.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                    > > > > equality
                                    > > > > > > that the original
                                    > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                    > superb
                                    > > > > > > Supreme
                                    > > > > > > Court Chief
                                    > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                    > what
                                    > > > > kind
                                    > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                    > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                    > only
                                    > > > > > > bother
                                    > > > > > > God when
                                    > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                    > > never
                                    > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                    > The
                                    > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                    > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                    > > > > elements
                                    > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                    > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                    > > > > while
                                    > > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Republican Party
                                    > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                    > > > > something
                                    > > > > > > totally different
                                    > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                    > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                    > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                    > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                    > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                    > very
                                    > > > > > > readable book:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Ram
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > THOMAS
                                    > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                    > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    > > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                    > > responses
                                    > > > > and
                                    > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                    > > > > entertained
                                    > > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                    > was
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > most
                                    > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                    > was
                                    > > > > born
                                    > > > > > > into
                                    > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                    > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                    > > > > > > machinery
                                    > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                    > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                    > > > > puppet
                                    > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                    > > reading
                                    > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                    > > > > trust-busting. He
                                    > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                    > > > > post-presidency,
                                    > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                    > I
                                    > > > > also
                                    > > > > > > find
                                    > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                    > > > > close
                                    > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                    > > successor),
                                    > > > > and
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                    > together
                                    > > > > > > before
                                    > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                    > in
                                    > >
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > 1912
                                    > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                    > > > > 'congenital
                                    > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                    > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                    > > Anthony
                                    > > > > > > Cspan
                                    > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                    > > that
                                    > > > > Ram
                                    > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                    > that
                                    > > > > she
                                    > > > > > > was
                                    > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                    > see
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > whole
                                    > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                    > > interview,
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Debs
                                    > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                    > > > > > > learning
                                    > > > > > > a
                                    > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                    > > I'd
                                    > > > > also
                                    > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                    > > here
                                    > > > > > > have
                                    > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                    > with
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > Taft
                                    > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                    > I'm
                                    > > > > > > reading
                                    > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                    > > > > began
                                    > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                    > taking
                                    > > > > Taft
                                    > > > > > > into
                                    > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                    > > > > though
                                    > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                    > > prosecutions
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                    > first
                                    > > > > term,
                                    > > > > > > but
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > === message truncated ===
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
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                                  • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                    Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                      Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
                                      In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
                                      did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
                                      the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
                                      Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
                                      Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
                                      internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
                                      inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
                                      the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
                                      Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
                                      Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
                                      that increased American military spending by 8% per
                                      annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
                                      effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
                                      growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
                                      spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
                                      annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
                                      rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
                                      1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
                                      continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
                                      returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
                                      out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
                                      were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
                                      Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
                                      the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
                                      in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

                                      That didn't help.

                                      Tom


                                      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                      ---------------------------------
                                      Princess David! He probably said that in his second
                                      term? His
                                      Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
                                      years.

                                      His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
                                      book confessing
                                      how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
                                      economics had damage
                                      the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
                                      true
                                      conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
                                      as immoral as
                                      driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
                                      generations.

                                      Ram


                                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                      <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
                                      pols
                                      > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                      > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                      > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                      > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
                                      what
                                      > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                      > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                      > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
                                      Africa,
                                      > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                      > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                      > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                      > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
                                      where
                                      > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                      > begin my judgement
                                      > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                      > his 8 consecutive
                                      > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                      > spending were not the
                                      > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                      >
                                      > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                      > differently, and will
                                      > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                      > contempt and
                                      > disrespect.
                                      >
                                      > Ram
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                      JOHNSON
                                      > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > While reading about the Harding administration
                                      and
                                      > > the Teapot Dome
                                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
                                      scandal,
                                      > I
                                      > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                      > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
                                      in
                                      > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
                                      and
                                      > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                      > Republican
                                      > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                      > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
                                      man.
                                      > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                      > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                      > > administration.
                                      > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                      > and
                                      > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                      > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                      > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                      > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                      > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                      > immunity
                                      > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                      > re
                                      > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
                                      Clinton,
                                      > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
                                      R-Cal,
                                      > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                      > pursuing
                                      > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                      > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                      > long
                                      > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                      > the
                                      > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                      > Presidential
                                      > > Leadership Survey
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                      > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
                                      and
                                      > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                      > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                      > LaFollette
                                      > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                      > not.
                                      > >
                                      > > Tom Johnson
                                      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Greg,
                                      > >
                                      > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
                                      Ayn
                                      > > Rand Institute in
                                      > > her name a decade ago:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                      > >
                                      > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                      > >
                                      > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                      > > reason, rational
                                      > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                      > > capitalism.
                                      > >
                                      > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
                                      spearheading
                                      > a
                                      > > "cultural
                                      > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                      > > anti-individualism,
                                      > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                      > > culture. The major
                                      > > battleground in this fight for reason and
                                      capitalism
                                      > > is the
                                      > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                      > all,
                                      > > the
                                      > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                      > > shape their lives.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
                                      Objectivism�holds
                                      > that
                                      > > historical
                                      > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
                                      To
                                      > > reverse the
                                      > > current political and economic trends in America
                                      and
                                      > > throughout the
                                      > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                      > fundamental
                                      > > philosophy."
                                      > >
                                      > > Ram
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                      Cannon
                                      > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                      > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                      > they
                                      > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                      > different
                                      > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                      > > were
                                      > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                      > who
                                      > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
                                      always
                                      > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                      > main
                                      > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                      > > should
                                      > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                      > > Rand
                                      > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                      > > them
                                      > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
                                      control.
                                      > > She
                                      > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                      > apparently
                                      > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                      > > birth
                                      > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                      > time.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
                                      Was
                                      > > she
                                      > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                      > What
                                      > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
                                      live?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                      > Rand,
                                      > > > > surely a very
                                      > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                      > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                      > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
                                      with
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > imprisonment.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Ram
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                      > > Cannon
                                      > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
                                      prosecution,
                                      > > but
                                      > > > > I
                                      > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                      > pardoned
                                      > > > > him.
                                      > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                      > in
                                      > > > > 1920,
                                      > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                      > the
                                      > > > > use
                                      > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
                                      of
                                      > > Emma
                                      > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
                                      she
                                      > > was
                                      > > > > not
                                      > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                      > > Union
                                      > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                      > > allowed
                                      > > > > to
                                      > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                      > > speeches
                                      > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                      > Thousands
                                      > > > > were
                                      > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                      > that
                                      > > > > her
                                      > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                      > > > > general
                                      > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                      > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
                                      a
                                      > > > > > > political
                                      > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
                                      I'm
                                      > > > > curious
                                      > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                      > that
                                      > > > > Deb's
                                      > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
                                      an
                                      > > > > attempt
                                      > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                      > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                      > the
                                      > > > > last
                                      > > > > > > to
                                      > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                      > the
                                      > > > > fact
                                      > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                      > > > > immediately
                                      > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                      > > astounding.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                      > > > > equality
                                      > > > > > > that the original
                                      > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                      > superb
                                      > > > > > > Supreme
                                      > > > > > > Court Chief
                                      > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                      > what
                                      > > > > kind
                                      > > > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                      > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                      > only
                                      > > > > > > bother
                                      > > > > > > God when
                                      > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                      > > never
                                      > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                      > The
                                      > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                      > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                      > > > > elements
                                      > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                      > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
                                      embraced,
                                      > > > > while
                                      > > > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > Republican Party
                                      > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                      > > > > something
                                      > > > > > > totally different
                                      > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
                                      transcript
                                      > > of
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                      > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                      > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                      > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                      > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                      > very
                                      > > > > > > readable book:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Ram
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > THOMAS
                                      > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                      > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                      > > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                      > > responses
                                      > > > > and
                                      > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                      > > > > entertained
                                      > > > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                      > was
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > most
                                      > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                      > was
                                      > > > > born
                                      > > > > > > into
                                      > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                      > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
                                      party
                                      > > > > > > machinery
                                      > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
                                      Republican
                                      > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
                                      a
                                      > > > > puppet
                                      > > > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                      > > reading
                                      > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                      > > > > trust-busting. He
                                      > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                      > > > > post-presidency,
                                      > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
                                      Court.
                                      > I
                                      > > > > also
                                      > > > > > > find
                                      > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
                                      been
                                      > > > > close
                                      > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                      > > successor),
                                      > > > > and
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                      > together
                                      > > > > > > before
                                      > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
                                      that
                                      > in
                                      > >
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > 1912
                                      > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                      > > > > 'congenital
                                      > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                      > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                      > > Anthony
                                      > > > > > > Cspan
                                      > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                      > > that
                                      > > > > Ram
                                      > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                      > that
                                      > > > > she
                                      > > > > > > was
                                      > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                      > see
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > whole
                                      > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                      > > interview,
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > Debs
                                      > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
                                      I'm
                                      > > > > > > learning
                                      > > > > > > a
                                      > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
                                      though
                                      > > I'd
                                      > > > > also
                                      > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
                                      anyone
                                      > > here
                                      > > > > > > have
                                      > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                      > with
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > Taft
                                      > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                      > I'm
                                      > > > > > > reading
                                      > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
                                      Teddy
                                      > > > > began
                                      > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                      > taking
                                      > > > > Taft
                                      > > > > > > into
                                      > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
                                      1905
                                      > > > > though
                                      > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                      > > prosecutions
                                      > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                      > first
                                      > > > > term,
                                      > > > > > > but
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > === message truncated ===
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
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