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Re: An email I sent to DailyKos.com

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  • Ram Lau
    Carl, For some odd reason you are posting your emails on the group. I m quite sure that it s not your intention to do so. Would you check the settings of your
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 12, 2005
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      Carl,

      For some odd reason you are posting your emails on the group. I'm
      quite sure that it's not your intention to do so. Would you check the
      settings of your posting and forwarding options?

      And I appreciate your promoting this the group!

      Thanks,
      Ram
    • Greg Cannon
      I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far then the party s message might become only marketing and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 12, 2005
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        I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
        then the party's message might become only marketing
        and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
        moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on both
        accounts. They never fully committed to either
        opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
        policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
        when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
        the voters.

        What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been reading
        a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished the
        part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
        Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to have
        picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
        named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
        he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial, and
        boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
        flamboyant and nearly always controversial.

        --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

        > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
        > I've come to the
        > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter more
        > than anything
        > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
        > are willing to go
        > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
        > Dems are simply
        > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
        > than bright)
        > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to go,
        > the elitist
        > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
        > people don't vote on
        > the issues.
        >
        > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act in
        > 1964: "We have
        > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
        > WRONG. They had
        > lost the South for generations. The only times when
        > the Democratic
        > candidate could win the South and thus the election
        > were all
        > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
        > namely, the
        > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot year
        > (1992). Then it
        > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
        > Even worse, both
        > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
        > attractive the Southern
        > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
        > support to win.
        >
        > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
        > civil rights (from
        > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
        > freedom - are what
        > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and the
        > liberals have
        > never been on their side. That's why the
        > pro-slavery, anti-women
        > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic bastion
        > in the pre-FDR
        > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled by
        > the liberals.
        >
        > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
        > past 200 years, and
        > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these liberals
        > always get what
        > they want a generation later or two. Read the
        > platform of the
        > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
        > far left agenda,
        > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
        > hopeful in a longer
        > term perspective even very disturbed in these days.
        >
        > Ram
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • THOMAS JOHNSON
        I m really enjoying the posting from this group and am curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances that were developing around 100 years ago, such as
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 12, 2005
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          I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and am
          curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances that
          were developing around 100 years ago, such as
          suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
          part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
          Taft administration. It would give me hope if a pious,
          pro big business president such as Taft inspired the
          progressive movement to rebel and a similar reaction
          could repeat itself a century later.

          Tom Johnson

          --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
          then the party's message might become only marketing
          and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
          moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on both
          accounts. They never fully committed to either
          opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
          policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
          when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
          the voters.

          What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been reading
          a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished the
          part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
          Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to have
          picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
          named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
          he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial, and
          boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
          flamboyant and nearly always controversial.

          --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

          > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
          > I've come to the
          > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter more
          > than anything
          > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
          > are willing to go
          > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
          > Dems are simply
          > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
          > than bright)
          > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to go,
          > the elitist
          > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
          > people don't vote on
          > the issues.
          >
          > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act in
          > 1964: "We have
          > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
          > WRONG. They had
          > lost the South for generations. The only times when
          > the Democratic
          > candidate could win the South and thus the election
          > were all
          > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
          > namely, the
          > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot year
          > (1992). Then it
          > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
          > Even worse, both
          > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
          > attractive the Southern
          > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
          > support to win.
          >
          > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
          > civil rights (from
          > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
          > freedom - are what
          > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and the
          > liberals have
          > never been on their side. That's why the
          > pro-slavery, anti-women
          > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic bastion
          > in the pre-FDR
          > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled by
          > the liberals.
          >
          > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
          > past 200 years, and
          > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these liberals
          > always get what
          > they want a generation later or two. Read the
          > platform of the
          > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
          > far left agenda,
          > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
          > hopeful in a longer
          > term perspective even very disturbed in these days.
          >
          > Ram
          >
          >
          >
          >



          ---------------------------------
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          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          ---------------------------------
        • Greg Cannon
          I can t answer your question, Tom, though I d also like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 13, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
            like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
            suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
            administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
            has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
            sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
            his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
            probably earlier.

            Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
            monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
            he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
            he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
            among government employees.

            I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
            movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
            about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
            the defense.

            --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

            > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
            > am
            > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
            > that
            > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
            > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
            > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
            > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
            > pious,
            > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
            > the
            > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
            > reaction
            > could repeat itself a century later.
            >
            > Tom Johnson
            >
            > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
            > then the party's message might become only marketing
            > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
            > the
            > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
            > both
            > accounts. They never fully committed to either
            > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
            > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
            > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
            > the voters.
            >
            > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
            > reading
            > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
            > the
            > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
            > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
            > have
            > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
            > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
            > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
            > and
            > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
            > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
            >
            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
            >
            > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
            > > I've come to the
            > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
            > more
            > > than anything
            > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
            > > are willing to go
            > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
            > > Dems are simply
            > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
            > > than bright)
            > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
            > go,
            > > the elitist
            > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
            > > people don't vote on
            > > the issues.
            > >
            > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
            > in
            > > 1964: "We have
            > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
            > > WRONG. They had
            > > lost the South for generations. The only times
            > when
            > > the Democratic
            > > candidate could win the South and thus the
            > election
            > > were all
            > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
            > > namely, the
            > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
            > year
            > > (1992). Then it
            > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
            > > Even worse, both
            > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
            > > attractive the Southern
            > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
            > > support to win.
            > >
            > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
            > > civil rights (from
            > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
            > > freedom - are what
            > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
            > the
            > > liberals have
            > > never been on their side. That's why the
            > > pro-slavery, anti-women
            > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
            > bastion
            > > in the pre-FDR
            > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
            > by
            > > the liberals.
            > >
            > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
            > > past 200 years, and
            > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
            > liberals
            > > always get what
            > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
            > > platform of the
            > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
            > > far left agenda,
            > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
            > > hopeful in a longer
            > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
            > days.
            > >
            > > Ram
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > to:
            > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ram Lau
            Tom, Once again, welcome to our discussion group! Nothing makes me more excited than knowing that members are enjoying the topics. The progressiveness of the
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 13, 2005
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              Tom,

              Once again, welcome to our discussion group! Nothing makes me more
              excited than knowing that members are enjoying the topics.

              The progressiveness of the country rooted way back during the era of
              the founding fathers. Ever since Benjamin Franklin and the Adams,
              there have always been what we can identify as the progressives of the
              day. They all had great causes that the contemporaries considered too
              "liberal" to be accepted, starting with the first biggest issue
              confronted the country - from John Quincy Adams (collasped on the
              House floor) spent his life fighting against slavery, to Charles
              Sumner (caned by some slaveholder in the US Senate) and other Radical
              Republicans demanding the military subjugation of the Old South. By
              the way, had the Radical Republican James Garfield survived the
              assassination and served his entire term, we probably would never have
              to deal with the racial problems that are still haunting all of us
              after generations - people like Earl Warren, Hubert Humphrey, Lyndon
              Johnson, and on the other side, Strom Thurmond, George Wallace (D-AL),
              and most Southern politicians would be dealing with something else.

              Then there were struggles such as temperance (since California was a
              new state and they didn't have the South Beach diet back then, LOL!),
              class and immigrant equality, women's suffrage, separate but equal,
              child labor, and many other issues that we can list. Sometimes the
              American people are more sympathetic for a cause and we get enough
              support to form a majority and make progress. Leadership, of course,
              is one of the most important elements in any given fight. In a way, we
              are repeating what was going on a century ago, gay rights compared to
              women's rights, Iraq compared to the Philippines, corporate
              deregulations compared to corporate regulations, war on drugs compared
              to prohibitionism... You see the similarities.

              The biggest difference is perhaps the leadership of the GOP. It was
              controlled by the liberals back then - Teddy Roosevelt was a proud
              progressive. To quote myself, "the Yankee Republicans won the Civil
              War and lost the Party to the Confederacy." Despite my frustration in
              these days, I remain optimistic - for once the progress is made, it's
              no turning back. The "conservatives" can never overturn Roe v. Wade,
              not to mention bringing back the White/Colored public bathrooms and
              water fountains. But, as Greg has noted, if we want to continue to
              make new progress, the progressives must do a better job in persuading
              the American people. We can't just sit and wait for another Watergate
              (even the sequel is happening), or another Ross Perot.

              Ram


              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
              wrote:
              > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and am
              > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances that
              > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
              > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
              > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
              > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a pious,
              > pro big business president such as Taft inspired the
              > progressive movement to rebel and a similar reaction
              > could repeat itself a century later.
              >
              > Tom Johnson
              >
              > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
              > then the party's message might become only marketing
              > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
              > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on both
              > accounts. They never fully committed to either
              > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
              > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
              > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
              > the voters.
              >
              > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been reading
              > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished the
              > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
              > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to have
              > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
              > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
              > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial, and
              > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
              > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
              >
              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
              > > I've come to the
              > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter more
              > > than anything
              > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
              > > are willing to go
              > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
              > > Dems are simply
              > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
              > > than bright)
              > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to go,
              > > the elitist
              > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
              > > people don't vote on
              > > the issues.
              > >
              > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act in
              > > 1964: "We have
              > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
              > > WRONG. They had
              > > lost the South for generations. The only times when
              > > the Democratic
              > > candidate could win the South and thus the election
              > > were all
              > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
              > > namely, the
              > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot year
              > > (1992). Then it
              > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
              > > Even worse, both
              > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
              > > attractive the Southern
              > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
              > > support to win.
              > >
              > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
              > > civil rights (from
              > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
              > > freedom - are what
              > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and the
              > > liberals have
              > > never been on their side. That's why the
              > > pro-slavery, anti-women
              > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic bastion
              > > in the pre-FDR
              > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled by
              > > the liberals.
              > >
              > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
              > > past 200 years, and
              > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these liberals
              > > always get what
              > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
              > > platform of the
              > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
              > > far left agenda,
              > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
              > > hopeful in a longer
              > > term perspective even very disturbed in these days.
              > >
              > > Ram
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
            • Ram Lau
              Greg, I suggest the book Nellie Taft by Carl Sferrazza Anthony: http://booktv.org/PublicLives/index.asp?segID=5711&schedID=374 Mrs. Taft wanted Taft to be
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 13, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Greg,

                I suggest the book "Nellie Taft" by Carl Sferrazza Anthony:
                http://booktv.org/PublicLives/index.asp?segID=5711&schedID=374

                Mrs. Taft wanted Taft to be the President than Taft himself. She was
                the very first Hillary Clinton, and had met Eleanor Roosevelt on
                several occasions. She was quite a First Lady. You can probably find
                out a lot more on the Tafts and their relationship with Teddy
                Roosevelt by reading the book. I saw his book presentation on C-SPAN 2
                months ago. Will read the book once I get a chance to get at my book list.

                And as you might have noticed, I've always been lamenting the lack of
                leadership and good strategies of the current progressives. Ted
                Kennedy and Robert Byrd shouldn't have to be the ones to speak out on
                all the issues. But where are the Barack Obamas and John Edwards's? We
                definitely need more of them.

                Ram


                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                wrote:
                > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
                > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
                > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
                > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                > sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
                > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                > probably earlier.
                >
                > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
                > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
                > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
                > among government employees.
                >
                > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
                > movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
                > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
                > the defense.
                >
                > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                >
                > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
                > > am
                > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
                > > that
                > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
                > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
                > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                > > pious,
                > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
                > > the
                > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                > > reaction
                > > could repeat itself a century later.
                > >
                > > Tom Johnson
                > >
                > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                > > then the party's message might become only marketing
                > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
                > > the
                > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
                > > both
                > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
                > > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
                > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
                > > the voters.
                > >
                > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
                > > reading
                > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
                > > the
                > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
                > > have
                > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
                > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
                > > and
                > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                > >
                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
                > > > I've come to the
                > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
                > > more
                > > > than anything
                > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
                > > > are willing to go
                > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
                > > > Dems are simply
                > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
                > > > than bright)
                > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
                > > go,
                > > > the elitist
                > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                > > > people don't vote on
                > > > the issues.
                > > >
                > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
                > > in
                > > > 1964: "We have
                > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                > > > WRONG. They had
                > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
                > > when
                > > > the Democratic
                > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
                > > election
                > > > were all
                > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
                > > > namely, the
                > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
                > > year
                > > > (1992). Then it
                > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                > > > Even worse, both
                > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                > > > attractive the Southern
                > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
                > > > support to win.
                > > >
                > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                > > > civil rights (from
                > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                > > > freedom - are what
                > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
                > > the
                > > > liberals have
                > > > never been on their side. That's why the
                > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
                > > bastion
                > > > in the pre-FDR
                > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
                > > by
                > > > the liberals.
                > > >
                > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                > > > past 200 years, and
                > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
                > > liberals
                > > > always get what
                > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                > > > platform of the
                > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
                > > > far left agenda,
                > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                > > > hopeful in a longer
                > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
                > > days.
                > > >
                > > > Ram
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > >
                > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                > > to:
                > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                > > Yahoo!
                > > Terms of Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Ram Lau
                I m quite sure I posted the 1904 Socialist Party Platform last year. I will re-post if you can t search it and want to take a look at it. Also, Debs ran as the
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 13, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'm quite sure I posted the 1904 Socialist Party Platform last year. I
                  will re-post if you can't search it and want to take a look at it.
                  Also, Debs ran as the Socialist candidate in the presidential election
                  of 1904 for the first time. From Wikipedia:

                  "He was a candidate for President of the United States in 1900 as a
                  member of the Social Democratic Party. He was later the Socialist
                  Party of America candidate for President in 1904, 1908, 1912, and
                  1920, the final time from prison.

                  Debs was, however, largely dismissive of the electoral process: he
                  distrusted the political bargains that Victor Berger and other "sewer
                  socialists" had made in winning local offices and put much more value
                  on the organization of workers, particularly on industrial lines. Yet
                  Debs was equally uncomfortable with the apolitical syndicalism of some
                  within the Industrial Workers of the World. While he was an early
                  supporter of the IWW, he was later appalled by what he considered the
                  IWW's irresponsible advocacy of direct action, especially sabotage.

                  Although Debs criticized the apolitical "pure and simple unionism" of
                  the railroad brotherhoods and the craft unions within the American
                  Federation of Labor, he practiced a form of pure and simple socialism
                  that underestimated the lasting power of racism, which he viewed as an
                  aspect of capitalist exploitation. As Debs wrote in 1903, the party
                  had "nothing specific to offer the negro, and we cannot make special
                  appeals to all the races. The Socialist party is the party of the
                  working class, regardless of color—the whole working class of the
                  whole world". Yet Debs was more advanced on this issue than many
                  others in the Socialist Party: he denounced racism throughout his
                  years as a socialist, refusing to address segregated audiences in the
                  South and condemning D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation".

                  Debs was a charismatic speaker who called on the vocabulary of
                  Christianity and much of the oratorical style of evangelism—even
                  though he was generally disdainful of organized religion. As Heywood
                  Broun noted in his eulogy for Debs, quoting a fellow Socialist: "That
                  old man with the burning eyes actually believes that there can be such
                  a thing as the brotherhood of man. And that's not the funniest part of
                  it. As long as he's around I believe it myself."

                  Debs himself was not wholly comfortable with his prowess as a speaker.
                  As he told an audience in Utah in 1910:

                  I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone
                  else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this
                  capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not
                  lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I lead you in,
                  some one else would lead you out. YOU MUST USE YOUR HEADS AS WELL AS
                  YOUR HANDS, and get yourself out of your present condition."

                  Ram


                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                  > then the party's message might become only marketing
                  > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At the
                  > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on both
                  > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                  > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
                  > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
                  > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
                  > the voters.
                  >
                  > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been reading
                  > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished the
                  > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                  > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to have
                  > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                  > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
                  > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial, and
                  > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                  > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                  >
                  > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
                  > > I've come to the
                  > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter more
                  > > than anything
                  > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
                  > > are willing to go
                  > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
                  > > Dems are simply
                  > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
                  > > than bright)
                  > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to go,
                  > > the elitist
                  > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                  > > people don't vote on
                  > > the issues.
                  > >
                  > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act in
                  > > 1964: "We have
                  > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                  > > WRONG. They had
                  > > lost the South for generations. The only times when
                  > > the Democratic
                  > > candidate could win the South and thus the election
                  > > were all
                  > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
                  > > namely, the
                  > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot year
                  > > (1992). Then it
                  > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                  > > Even worse, both
                  > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                  > > attractive the Southern
                  > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
                  > > support to win.
                  > >
                  > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                  > > civil rights (from
                  > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                  > > freedom - are what
                  > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and the
                  > > liberals have
                  > > never been on their side. That's why the
                  > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                  > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic bastion
                  > > in the pre-FDR
                  > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled by
                  > > the liberals.
                  > >
                  > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                  > > past 200 years, and
                  > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these liberals
                  > > always get what
                  > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                  > > platform of the
                  > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
                  > > far left agenda,
                  > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                  > > hopeful in a longer
                  > > term perspective even very disturbed in these days.
                  > >
                  > > Ram
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • THOMAS JOHNSON
                  Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                    welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
                    notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
                    analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
                    political privilege, divisive, pious,
                    anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
                    (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                    nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
                    big business, but after doing a little reading
                    tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                    seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                    including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
                    it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                    friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                    were able to have an amicable lunch together before
                    the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
                    primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                    liar' were thrown at each other.
                    I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
                    interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                    alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
                    pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
                    segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
                    profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
                    lot form you guys.

                    Tom Johnson

                    --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:


                    ---------------------------------
                    I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                    like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
                    suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
                    administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
                    has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                    sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
                    his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                    probably earlier.

                    Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                    monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
                    he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
                    he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
                    among government employees.

                    I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
                    movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
                    about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
                    the defense.

                    --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                    > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
                    > am
                    > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
                    > that
                    > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                    > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
                    > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
                    > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                    > pious,
                    > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
                    > the
                    > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                    > reaction
                    > could repeat itself a century later.
                    >
                    > Tom Johnson
                    >
                    > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                    > then the party's message might become only marketing
                    > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
                    > the
                    > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
                    > both
                    > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                    > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
                    > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
                    > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
                    > the voters.
                    >
                    > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
                    > reading
                    > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
                    > the
                    > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                    > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
                    > have
                    > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                    > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
                    > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
                    > and
                    > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                    > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                    >
                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
                    > > I've come to the
                    > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
                    > more
                    > > than anything
                    > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
                    > > are willing to go
                    > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
                    > > Dems are simply
                    > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
                    > > than bright)
                    > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
                    > go,
                    > > the elitist
                    > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                    > > people don't vote on
                    > > the issues.
                    > >
                    > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
                    > in
                    > > 1964: "We have
                    > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                    > > WRONG. They had
                    > > lost the South for generations. The only times
                    > when
                    > > the Democratic
                    > > candidate could win the South and thus the
                    > election
                    > > were all
                    > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
                    > > namely, the
                    > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
                    > year
                    > > (1992). Then it
                    > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                    > > Even worse, both
                    > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                    > > attractive the Southern
                    > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
                    > > support to win.
                    > >
                    > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                    > > civil rights (from
                    > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                    > > freedom - are what
                    > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
                    > the
                    > > liberals have
                    > > never been on their side. That's why the
                    > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                    > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
                    > bastion
                    > > in the pre-FDR
                    > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
                    > by
                    > > the liberals.
                    > >
                    > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                    > > past 200 years, and
                    > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
                    > liberals
                    > > always get what
                    > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                    > > platform of the
                    > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
                    > > far left agenda,
                    > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                    > > hopeful in a longer
                    > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
                    > days.
                    > >
                    > > Ram
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > to:
                    > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > Yahoo!
                    > Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    ---------------------------------
                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                    Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    Terms of Service.


                    ---------------------------------
                  • Ram Lau
                    Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief Justice. I find it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 14, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality that the original
                      Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme Court Chief
                      Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of Justice Bush or
                      Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother God when
                      necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never happen to mankind.

                      The 1912 election was a critical election. The Democratic Party for
                      the first time experienced the progressive elements that Woodrow
                      Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the Republican Party
                      began to turn from a center-left party to something totally different
                      half a century later. Here is the transcript of the BookTV interview
                      with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt, Taft, and Debs -
                      The Election That Changed the Country," a very readable book:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

                      Ram


                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                      wrote:
                      > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                      > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
                      > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
                      > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born into
                      > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                      > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
                      > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                      > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
                      > big business, but after doing a little reading
                      > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                      > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                      > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also find
                      > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                      > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                      > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
                      > the latter's death , significant in that in the 1912
                      > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                      > liar' were thrown at each other.
                      > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
                      > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                      > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
                      > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the whole
                      > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the Debs
                      > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning a
                      > lot form you guys.
                      >
                      > Tom Johnson
                      >
                      > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                      > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
                      > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
                      > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
                      > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                      > sending him on important missions and taking Taft into
                      > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                      > probably earlier.
                      >
                      > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                      > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term, but
                      > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
                      > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
                      > among government employees.
                      >
                      > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the progressive
                      > movement now, as you mention, but how would that come
                      > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much on
                      > the defense.
                      >
                      > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group and
                      > > am
                      > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
                      > > that
                      > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                      > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least in
                      > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and the
                      > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                      > > pious,
                      > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
                      > > the
                      > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                      > > reaction
                      > > could repeat itself a century later.
                      > >
                      > > Tom Johnson
                      > >
                      > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                      > > then the party's message might become only marketing
                      > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
                      > > the
                      > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
                      > > both
                      > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                      > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and his
                      > > policies on civil rights, and they failed miserably
                      > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence to
                      > > the voters.
                      > >
                      > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
                      > > reading
                      > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
                      > > the
                      > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                      > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
                      > > have
                      > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                      > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked because
                      > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
                      > > and
                      > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                      > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                      > >
                      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > In politics and in my years of studying politics,
                      > > > I've come to the
                      > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
                      > > more
                      > > > than anything
                      > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team and
                      > > > are willing to go
                      > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning. The
                      > > > Dems are simply
                      > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and less
                      > > > than bright)
                      > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
                      > > go,
                      > > > the elitist
                      > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                      > > > people don't vote on
                      > > > the issues.
                      > > >
                      > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
                      > > in
                      > > > 1964: "We have
                      > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                      > > > WRONG. They had
                      > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
                      > > when
                      > > > the Democratic
                      > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
                      > > election
                      > > > were all
                      > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly) -
                      > > > namely, the
                      > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
                      > > year
                      > > > (1992). Then it
                      > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                      > > > Even worse, both
                      > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                      > > > attractive the Southern
                      > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner enough
                      > > > support to win.
                      > > >
                      > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                      > > > civil rights (from
                      > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                      > > > freedom - are what
                      > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
                      > > the
                      > > > liberals have
                      > > > never been on their side. That's why the
                      > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                      > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
                      > > bastion
                      > > > in the pre-FDR
                      > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
                      > > by
                      > > > the liberals.
                      > > >
                      > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                      > > > past 200 years, and
                      > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
                      > > liberals
                      > > > always get what
                      > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                      > > > platform of the
                      > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as the
                      > > > far left agenda,
                      > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                      > > > hopeful in a longer
                      > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
                      > > days.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ram
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                      > > to:
                      > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                      > > Yahoo!
                      > > Terms of Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      >
                      > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      > Terms of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                    • THOMAS JOHNSON
                      Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I d like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
                        interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
                        like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
                        Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
                        like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
                        In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
                        learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
                        and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
                        seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
                        they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
                        although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
                        that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
                        Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                        the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
                        tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                        whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                        incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                        to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                        I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
                        leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                        that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                        after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.

                        Tom Johnson




                        --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                        ---------------------------------
                        Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                        that the original
                        Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
                        Court Chief
                        Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
                        Justice Bush or
                        Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
                        God when
                        necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                        happen to mankind.

                        The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                        Democratic Party for
                        the first time experienced the progressive elements
                        that Woodrow
                        Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
                        Republican Party
                        began to turn from a center-left party to something
                        totally different
                        half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                        BookTV interview
                        with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
                        Taft, and Debs -
                        The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                        readable book:

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192

                        Ram


                        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                        <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                        wrote:
                        > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                        > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
                        > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
                        > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                        into
                        > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                        > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
                        > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                        > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
                        > big business, but after doing a little reading
                        > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                        > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                        > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                        find
                        > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                        > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                        > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
                        > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                        1912
                        > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                        > liar' were thrown at each other.
                        > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
                        > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                        > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
                        > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                        whole
                        > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                        Debs
                        > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
                        a
                        > lot form you guys.
                        >
                        > Tom Johnson
                        >
                        > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                        > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
                        > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
                        > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
                        > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                        > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                        into
                        > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                        > probably earlier.
                        >
                        > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                        > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                        but
                        > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
                        > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
                        > among government employees.
                        >
                        > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                        progressive
                        > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                        come
                        > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                        on
                        > the defense.
                        >
                        > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                        and
                        > > am
                        > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
                        > > that
                        > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                        > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
                        in
                        > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                        the
                        > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                        > > pious,
                        > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
                        > > the
                        > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                        > > reaction
                        > > could repeat itself a century later.
                        > >
                        > > Tom Johnson
                        > >
                        > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                        > > then the party's message might become only
                        marketing
                        > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
                        > > the
                        > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
                        > > both
                        > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                        > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                        his
                        > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                        miserably
                        > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                        to
                        > > the voters.
                        > >
                        > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
                        > > reading
                        > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
                        > > the
                        > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                        > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
                        > > have
                        > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                        > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
                        because
                        > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
                        > > and
                        > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                        > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                        > >
                        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > In politics and in my years of studying
                        politics,
                        > > > I've come to the
                        > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
                        > > more
                        > > > than anything
                        > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
                        and
                        > > > are willing to go
                        > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
                        The
                        > > > Dems are simply
                        > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
                        less
                        > > > than bright)
                        > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
                        > > go,
                        > > > the elitist
                        > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                        > > > people don't vote on
                        > > > the issues.
                        > > >
                        > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
                        > > in
                        > > > 1964: "We have
                        > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                        > > > WRONG. They had
                        > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
                        > > when
                        > > > the Democratic
                        > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
                        > > election
                        > > > were all
                        > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
                        -
                        > > > namely, the
                        > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
                        > > year
                        > > > (1992). Then it
                        > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                        > > > Even worse, both
                        > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                        > > > attractive the Southern
                        > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
                        enough
                        > > > support to win.
                        > > >
                        > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                        > > > civil rights (from
                        > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                        > > > freedom - are what
                        > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
                        > > the
                        > > > liberals have
                        > > > never been on their side. That's why the
                        > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                        > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
                        > > bastion
                        > > > in the pre-FDR
                        > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
                        > > by
                        > > > the liberals.
                        > > >
                        > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                        > > > past 200 years, and
                        > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
                        > > liberals
                        > > > always get what
                        > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                        > > > platform of the
                        > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
                        the
                        > > > far left agenda,
                        > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                        > > > hopeful in a longer
                        > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
                        > > days.
                        > > >
                        > > > Ram
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                        > > to:
                        > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                        > > Yahoo!
                        > > Terms of Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                        to:
                        > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                        Yahoo!
                        > Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------





                        ---------------------------------
                        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                        Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.

                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        ---------------------------------
                      • Ram Lau
                        Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems. Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative, and he was not one of those
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Wilson and Bryan was the transitional generation for the Dems.
                          Wilson was a Southerner who happened to be an educated conservative,
                          and he was not one of those orthodox Southern Democrats in his days.
                          After all, he became President of Princeton and Governor of New
                          Jersey before the Presidency. I like Taft for being real and honest,
                          even I think he was a little too passive and conservative as an Ohio
                          Republican a century ago. But, to be fair, Taft was just as centrist
                          as Wilson.

                          The country wanted progressives at a time when the Triangle Factory
                          Fire just happened, and the anti-child labor sentiment and women's
                          rights movement were fermenting. The 1912 election was all about
                          the "America can do better" feelings.

                          Ram


                          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                          <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                          > Thanks,Ram, for the clarification and the BookTV
                          > interview about the 1912 election. First of all, I'd
                          > like to apologize to the legacy of Taft for comparing
                          > Bush to him.. After learning more about him, I feel
                          > like I slimed him by lumping him in with Bush 43.
                          > In reading the interview, I was very surprised to
                          > learn that of the 4 nominees ( Taft, Wilson, Roosevelt
                          > and Debs) in the 1912 presidential race, that Wilson
                          > seemed to have the most in common with Bush, in that
                          > they govern(ed) from a place of divine ordination,
                          > although it is not clear to me whether Wilson applied
                          > that philosophy in general or just in the Treaty of
                          > Versailles. I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                          > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a political
                          > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                          > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                          > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                          > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                          > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last to
                          > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                          > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                          > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                          >
                          > Tom Johnson
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                          > that the original
                          > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb Supreme
                          > Court Chief
                          > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind of
                          > Justice Bush or
                          > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only bother
                          > God when
                          > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                          > happen to mankind.
                          >
                          > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                          > Democratic Party for
                          > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                          > that Woodrow
                          > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while the
                          > Republican Party
                          > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                          > totally different
                          > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                          > BookTV interview
                          > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt,
                          > Taft, and Debs -
                          > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                          > readable book:
                          >
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                          >
                          > Ram
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                          > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                          > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained the
                          > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the most
                          > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                          > into
                          > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                          > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party machinery
                          > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                          > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet of
                          > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                          > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                          > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                          > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                          > find
                          > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                          > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                          > > were able to have an amicable lunch together before
                          > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                          > 1912
                          > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                          > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                          > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony Cspan
                          > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                          > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she was
                          > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                          > whole
                          > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                          > Debs
                          > > profile and for answering my question. I'm learning
                          > a
                          > > lot form you guys.
                          > >
                          > > Tom Johnson
                          > >
                          > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                          > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here have
                          > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the Taft
                          > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm reading
                          > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                          > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                          > into
                          > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                          > > probably earlier.
                          > >
                          > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                          > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                          > but
                          > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted, and
                          > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open shops"
                          > > among government employees.
                          > >
                          > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                          > progressive
                          > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                          > come
                          > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                          > on
                          > > the defense.
                          > >
                          > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                          > and
                          > > > am
                          > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive advances
                          > > > that
                          > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                          > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at least
                          > in
                          > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                          > the
                          > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                          > > > pious,
                          > > > pro big business president such as Taft inspired
                          > > > the
                          > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                          > > > reaction
                          > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                          > > >
                          > > > Tom Johnson
                          > > >
                          > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too far
                          > > > then the party's message might become only
                          > marketing
                          > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance. At
                          > > > the
                          > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking on
                          > > > both
                          > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                          > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                          > his
                          > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                          > miserably
                          > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                          > to
                          > > > the voters.
                          > > >
                          > > > What did the Socialists say in 1904? I've been
                          > > > reading
                          > > > a Teddy Roosevelt biography and recently finished
                          > > > the
                          > > > part on the 1904 election and didn't hear the
                          > > > Socialists mentioned. The Democrats sure seem to
                          > > > have
                          > > > picked an unfortunate candidate that year, a judge
                          > > > named Alton Parker who was apparently picked
                          > because
                          > > > he seemed very very nonpartisan, uncontroversial,
                          > > > and
                          > > > boring in contrast to Roosevelt who was very
                          > > > flamboyant and nearly always controversial.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > In politics and in my years of studying
                          > politics,
                          > > > > I've come to the
                          > > > > conclusion that marketing and packaging matter
                          > > > more
                          > > > > than anything
                          > > > > else. The GOP has a much better marketing team
                          > and
                          > > > > are willing to go
                          > > > > for the nasties, that's why they keep winning.
                          > The
                          > > > > Dems are simply
                          > > > > whiney losers who keep picking the wrong (and
                          > less
                          > > > > than bright)
                          > > > > candidates. Moral high ground is not the way to
                          > > > go,
                          > > > > the elitist
                          > > > > liberals should understand. And, honestly, most
                          > > > > people don't vote on
                          > > > > the issues.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > LBJ's prophecy upon signing the Civil Rights Act
                          > > > in
                          > > > > 1964: "We have
                          > > > > just lost the South for a generation." He's dead
                          > > > > WRONG. They had
                          > > > > lost the South for generations. The only times
                          > > > when
                          > > > > the Democratic
                          > > > > candidate could win the South and thus the
                          > > > election
                          > > > > were all
                          > > > > accidental (when the GOP screwed up very badly)
                          > -
                          > > > > namely, the
                          > > > > Watergate referendum year (1976) and the Perot
                          > > > year
                          > > > > (1992). Then it
                          > > > > took a Clinton miracle to get re-elcted in 1996.
                          > > > > Even worse, both
                          > > > > Carter and Clinton had to be a Southerner to
                          > > > > attractive the Southern
                          > > > > moderates who don't usually vote to garner
                          > enough
                          > > > > support to win.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The only issues that matter to most - abortion,
                          > > > > civil rights (from
                          > > > > affirmative action to gay rights), and religious
                          > > > > freedom - are what
                          > > > > the Southerners care about (to deprive them) and
                          > > > the
                          > > > > liberals have
                          > > > > never been on their side. That's why the
                          > > > > pro-slavery, anti-women
                          > > > > rights, xenophobic South was the Democratic
                          > > > bastion
                          > > > > in the pre-FDR
                          > > > > days when the Yankee Republicans were controlled
                          > > > by
                          > > > > the liberals.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Liberalism doesn't sell well in the South in the
                          > > > > past 200 years, and
                          > > > > I doubt ever will. Ironically enough, these
                          > > > liberals
                          > > > > always get what
                          > > > > they want a generation later or two. Read the
                          > > > > platform of the
                          > > > > Socialist Party in 1904. What was perceived as
                          > the
                          > > > > far left agenda,
                          > > > > we have adopted most of it. That's why I'm still
                          > > > > hopeful in a longer
                          > > > > term perspective even very disturbed in these
                          > > > days.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Ram
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                          > > >
                          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                          > > > to:
                          > > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                          > > > Yahoo!
                          > > > Terms of Service.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                          > to:
                          > > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                          > Yahoo!
                          > > Terms of Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          > Terms of Service.
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                        • Greg Cannon
                          I don t know the details of Debs prosecution, but I recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him. And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
                            recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
                            And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
                            though he was still in jail.

                            The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
                            of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                            Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
                            only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                            (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
                            return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                            against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
                            deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
                            anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
                            than at Wilson himself.

                            --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                            > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                            > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                            > political
                            > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                            > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                            > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                            > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                            > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
                            > to
                            > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                            > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                            > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                            >
                            > Tom Johnson
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                            > that the original
                            > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                            > Supreme
                            > Court Chief
                            > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
                            > of
                            > Justice Bush or
                            > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                            > bother
                            > God when
                            > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                            > happen to mankind.
                            >
                            > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                            > Democratic Party for
                            > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                            > that Woodrow
                            > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
                            > the
                            > Republican Party
                            > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                            > totally different
                            > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                            > BookTV interview
                            > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                            > Roosevelt,
                            > Taft, and Debs -
                            > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                            > readable book:
                            >
                            >
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                            >
                            > Ram
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                            > JOHNSON
                            > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                            > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
                            > the
                            > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
                            > most
                            > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                            > into
                            > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                            > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                            > machinery
                            > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                            > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
                            > of
                            > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                            > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                            > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                            > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                            > find
                            > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                            > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                            >
                            > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                            > before
                            > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                            > 1912
                            > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                            > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                            > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                            > Cspan
                            > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                            > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
                            > was
                            > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                            > whole
                            > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                            > Debs
                            > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                            > learning
                            > a
                            > > lot form you guys.
                            > >
                            > > Tom Johnson
                            > >
                            > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                            > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                            > have
                            > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
                            > Taft
                            > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                            > reading
                            > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                            > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                            > into
                            > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                            > > probably earlier.
                            > >
                            > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                            > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                            > but
                            > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
                            > and
                            > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
                            > shops"
                            > > among government employees.
                            > >
                            > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                            > progressive
                            > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                            > come
                            > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                            > on
                            > > the defense.
                            > >
                            > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                            > and
                            > > > am
                            > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
                            > advances
                            > > > that
                            > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                            > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
                            > least
                            > in
                            > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                            > the
                            > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                            > > > pious,
                            > > > pro big business president such as Taft
                            > inspired
                            > > > the
                            > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                            > > > reaction
                            > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                            > > >
                            > > > Tom Johnson
                            > > >
                            > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ---------------------------------
                            > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
                            > far
                            > > > then the party's message might become only
                            > marketing
                            > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
                            > At
                            > > > the
                            > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
                            > on
                            > > > both
                            > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                            > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                            > his
                            > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                            > miserably
                            > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                            > to
                            >
                            === message truncated ===
                          • Ram Lau
                            Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes wonder if the Red Scare had
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand, surely a very
                              different personality. (Ann Coulter of her generation?) I sometimes
                              wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the imprisonment.

                              Ram


                              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but I
                              > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned him.
                              > And Debs did still get about a million votes in 1920,
                              > though he was still in jail.
                              >
                              > The best (and really only) book I've read on the use
                              > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                              > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was not
                              > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                              > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed to
                              > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                              > against the war and against the draft. Thousands were
                              > deported at the same time as her. I recall that her
                              > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney general
                              > than at Wilson himself.
                              >
                              > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                              > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                              > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                              > > political
                              > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm curious
                              > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that Deb's
                              > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an attempt
                              > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                              > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the last
                              > > to
                              > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the fact
                              > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech, immediately
                              > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                              > >
                              > > Tom Johnson
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and equality
                              > > that the original
                              > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                              > > Supreme
                              > > Court Chief
                              > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what kind
                              > > of
                              > > Justice Bush or
                              > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                              > > bother
                              > > God when
                              > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                              > > happen to mankind.
                              > >
                              > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                              > > Democratic Party for
                              > > the first time experienced the progressive elements
                              > > that Woodrow
                              > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced, while
                              > > the
                              > > Republican Party
                              > > began to turn from a center-left party to something
                              > > totally different
                              > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of the
                              > > BookTV interview
                              > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                              > > Roosevelt,
                              > > Taft, and Debs -
                              > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                              > > readable book:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                              > >
                              > > Ram
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                              > > JOHNSON
                              > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses and
                              > > > welcoming me into the group. I have entertained
                              > > the
                              > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was the
                              > > most
                              > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was born
                              > > into
                              > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                              > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                              > > machinery
                              > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                              > > > nomination). I also would have included a puppet
                              > > of
                              > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                              > > > tonight, he apparently did some trust-busting. He
                              > > > seems to have had a pretty good post-presidency,
                              > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I also
                              > > find
                              > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been close
                              > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor), and
                              > >
                              > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                              > > before
                              > > > the latter's death , significant in that in the
                              > > 1912
                              > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and 'congenital
                              > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                              > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                              > > Cspan
                              > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that Ram
                              > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that she
                              > > was
                              > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see the
                              > > whole
                              > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview, the
                              > > Debs
                              > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                              > > learning
                              > > a
                              > > > lot form you guys.
                              > > >
                              > > > Tom Johnson
                              > > >
                              > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd also
                              > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                              > > have
                              > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with the
                              > > Taft
                              > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                              > > reading
                              > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy began
                              > > > sending him on important missions and taking Taft
                              > > into
                              > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905 though
                              > > > probably earlier.
                              > > >
                              > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions of
                              > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first term,
                              > > but
                              > > > he never went as far as the progressives wanted,
                              > > and
                              > > > he angered progressives by insisting on "open
                              > > shops"
                              > > > among government employees.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'd like to see a similar reaction by the
                              > > progressive
                              > > > movement now, as you mention, but how would that
                              > > come
                              > > > about? Right now progressives seem to be very much
                              > > on
                              > > > the defense.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > I'm really enjoying the posting from this group
                              > > and
                              > > > > am
                              > > > > curious if anyone thinks the progressive
                              > > advances
                              > > > > that
                              > > > > were developing around 100 years ago, such as
                              > > > > suffrage and shorter workdays, were due at
                              > > least
                              > > in
                              > > > > part to a backlash against the robber barons and
                              > > the
                              > > > > Taft administration. It would give me hope if a
                              > > > > pious,
                              > > > > pro big business president such as Taft
                              > > inspired
                              > > > > the
                              > > > > progressive movement to rebel and a similar
                              > > > > reaction
                              > > > > could repeat itself a century later.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tom Johnson
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > > I agree with you, but I fear that if taken too
                              > > far
                              > > > > then the party's message might become only
                              > > marketing
                              > > > > and packaging, with a great lack of substance.
                              > > At
                              > > > > the
                              > > > > moment though the Democrats seem to be lacking
                              > > on
                              > > > > both
                              > > > > accounts. They never fully committed to either
                              > > > > opposing or supporting Bush's foreign policy and
                              > > his
                              > > > > policies on civil rights, and they failed
                              > > miserably
                              > > > > when they attempted to explain their ambivalence
                              > > to
                              > >
                              > === message truncated ===
                            • Ram Lau
                              I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that progressive era. :-) Ram
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                I forgot to mention that everyone was using cocaine legally in that
                                "progressive" era. :-)

                                Ram
                              • Greg Cannon
                                I have vague knowledge of Rand s writings and philosophy. I think they both believed in what they thought of as libertarianism, but had very different views on
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 15, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                  philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                                  thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                                  views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                                  nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                                  were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                  disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                                  thing they agreed on was that private property should
                                  be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                                  would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                                  on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                                  delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                                  condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                                  control devices like that weren't legal at the time.

                                  I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                                  as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                                  was she like? For that matter, when did she live?

                                  --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

                                  > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                                  > surely a very
                                  > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                  > generation?) I sometimes
                                  > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                                  > imprisonment.
                                  >
                                  > Ram
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                  > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                                  > I
                                  > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                                  > him.
                                  > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                                  > 1920,
                                  > > though he was still in jail.
                                  > >
                                  > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                                  > use
                                  > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                                  > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                                  > not
                                  > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                                  > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                                  > to
                                  > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                                  > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                                  > were
                                  > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                                  > her
                                  > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                  > general
                                  > > than at Wilson himself.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                  > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                  > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                  > > > political
                                  > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                  > curious
                                  > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                                  > Deb's
                                  > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                  > attempt
                                  > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                  > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                                  > last
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                                  > fact
                                  > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                  > immediately
                                  > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                  > equality
                                  > > > that the original
                                  > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                                  > > > Supreme
                                  > > > Court Chief
                                  > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                                  > kind
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > Justice Bush or
                                  > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                                  > > > bother
                                  > > > God when
                                  > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                                  > > > happen to mankind.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                                  > > > Democratic Party for
                                  > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                  > elements
                                  > > > that Woodrow
                                  > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                  > while
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > Republican Party
                                  > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                  > something
                                  > > > totally different
                                  > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                                  > the
                                  > > > BookTV interview
                                  > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                  > > > Roosevelt,
                                  > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                  > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                                  > > > readable book:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ram
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                  > > > JOHNSON
                                  > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                                  > and
                                  > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                  > entertained
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                                  > the
                                  > > > most
                                  > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                                  > born
                                  > > > into
                                  > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                  > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                  > > > machinery
                                  > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                  > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                  > puppet
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                                  > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                  > trust-busting. He
                                  > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                  > post-presidency,
                                  > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                                  > also
                                  > > > find
                                  > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                  > close
                                  > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                                  > and
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                                  > > > before
                                  > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                                  > the
                                  > > > 1912
                                  > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                  > 'congenital
                                  > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                  > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                                  > > > Cspan
                                  > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                                  > Ram
                                  > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                                  > she
                                  > > > was
                                  > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                                  > the
                                  > > > whole
                                  > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                                  > the
                                  > > > Debs
                                  > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                  > > > learning
                                  > > > a
                                  > > > > lot form you guys.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tom Johnson
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                                  > also
                                  > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                                  > > > have
                                  > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                                  > the
                                  > > > Taft
                                  > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                                  > > > reading
                                  > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                  > began
                                  > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                                  > Taft
                                  > > > into
                                  > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                  > though
                                  > > > > probably earlier.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                                  > of
                                  > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                                  > term,
                                  > > > but
                                  >
                                  === message truncated ===
                                • Ram Lau
                                  Greg, Rand has plenty of fans. They ve even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in her name a decade ago: http://www.aynrand.org/ She s the Milton Friedman of her
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Greg,

                                    Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn Rand Institute in
                                    her name a decade ago:

                                    http://www.aynrand.org/

                                    She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                                    "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of reason, rational
                                    self-interest, individual rights and free-market capitalism.

                                    ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a "cultural
                                    renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason, anti-individualism,
                                    anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's culture. The major
                                    battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism is the
                                    educational institutions—high schools, and above all, the
                                    universities, where students learn the ideas that shape their lives.

                                    Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that historical
                                    trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To reverse the
                                    current political and economic trends in America and throughout the
                                    world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental philosophy."

                                    Ram


                                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                    > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                                    > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                                    > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies were
                                    > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                                    > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                    > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                                    > thing they agreed on was that private property should
                                    > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure Rand
                                    > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined them
                                    > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control. She
                                    > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                                    > condoms were distributed at her lectures though birth
                                    > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was she
                                    > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                                    > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                    >
                                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                                    > > surely a very
                                    > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                    > > generation?) I sometimes
                                    > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with the
                                    > > imprisonment.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ram
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                    > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution, but
                                    > > I
                                    > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                                    > > him.
                                    > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                                    > > 1920,
                                    > > > though he was still in jail.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                                    > > use
                                    > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of Emma
                                    > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she was
                                    > > not
                                    > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet Union
                                    > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never allowed
                                    > > to
                                    > > > return to America, all because she'd made speeches
                                    > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                                    > > were
                                    > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                                    > > her
                                    > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                    > > general
                                    > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                    > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                    > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                    > > > > political
                                    > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                    > > curious
                                    > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                                    > > Deb's
                                    > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                    > > attempt
                                    > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                    > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                                    > > last
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                                    > > fact
                                    > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                    > > immediately
                                    > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest, astounding.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                    > > equality
                                    > > > > that the original
                                    > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                                    > > > > Supreme
                                    > > > > Court Chief
                                    > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                                    > > kind
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > Justice Bush or
                                    > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                                    > > > > bother
                                    > > > > God when
                                    > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will never
                                    > > > > happen to mankind.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                                    > > > > Democratic Party for
                                    > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                    > > elements
                                    > > > > that Woodrow
                                    > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                    > > while
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > Republican Party
                                    > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                    > > something
                                    > > > > totally different
                                    > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript of
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > BookTV interview
                                    > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                    > > > > Roosevelt,
                                    > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                    > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                                    > > > > readable book:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ram
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                    > > > > JOHNSON
                                    > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the responses
                                    > > and
                                    > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                    > > entertained
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > most
                                    > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                                    > > born
                                    > > > > into
                                    > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                    > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                    > > > > machinery
                                    > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                    > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                    > > puppet
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > > big business, but after doing a little reading
                                    > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                    > > trust-busting. He
                                    > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                    > > post-presidency,
                                    > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                                    > > also
                                    > > > > find
                                    > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                    > > close
                                    > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked successor),
                                    > > and
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                                    > > > > before
                                    > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > 1912
                                    > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                    > > 'congenital
                                    > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                    > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza Anthony
                                    > > > > Cspan
                                    > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft that
                                    > > Ram
                                    > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                                    > > she
                                    > > > > was
                                    > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > whole
                                    > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge interview,
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > Debs
                                    > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                    > > > > learning
                                    > > > > a
                                    > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though I'd
                                    > > also
                                    > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone here
                                    > > > > have
                                    > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > Taft
                                    > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                                    > > > > reading
                                    > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                    > > began
                                    > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                                    > > Taft
                                    > > > > into
                                    > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                    > > though
                                    > > > > > probably earlier.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust prosecutions
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                                    > > term,
                                    > > > > but
                                    > >
                                    > === message truncated ===
                                  • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                    While reading about the Harding administration and the Teapot Dome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I became re-acquainted with Fightin
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      While reading about the Harding administration and
                                      the Teapot Dome
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                                      became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                      who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                      Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                      the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                                      LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                      committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                      Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                      imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                      administration.
                                      Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                                      the Iran-Contra scandal
                                      ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                      administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                      with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                      Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                                      to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                                      penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                      according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                      primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                                      Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                      In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                                      term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                                      11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                                      Leadership Survey
                                      http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                      comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                      Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                      How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                                      had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.

                                      Tom Johnson
                                      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                      ---------------------------------
                                      Greg,

                                      Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                      Rand Institute in
                                      her name a decade ago:

                                      http://www.aynrand.org/

                                      She's the Milton Friedman of her era:

                                      "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                      reason, rational
                                      self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                      capitalism.

                                      ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                                      "cultural
                                      renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                      anti-individualism,
                                      anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                      culture. The major
                                      battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                      is the
                                      educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                                      the
                                      universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                      shape their lives.

                                      Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                                      historical
                                      trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                      reverse the
                                      current political and economic trends in America and
                                      throughout the
                                      world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                                      philosophy."

                                      Ram


                                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                      <gregcannon1@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                      > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                                      > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                                      > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                      were
                                      > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                                      > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                      > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                                      > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                      should
                                      > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                      Rand
                                      > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                      them
                                      > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                      She
                                      > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                                      > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                      birth
                                      > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                                      >
                                      > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                      she
                                      > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                                      > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                      >
                                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                                      > > surely a very
                                      > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                      > > generation?) I sometimes
                                      > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                      the
                                      > > imprisonment.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ram
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                      Cannon
                                      > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                      but
                                      > > I
                                      > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                                      > > him.
                                      > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                                      > > 1920,
                                      > > > though he was still in jail.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                                      > > use
                                      > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                      Emma
                                      > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                      was
                                      > > not
                                      > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                      Union
                                      > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                      allowed
                                      > > to
                                      > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                      speeches
                                      > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                                      > > were
                                      > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                                      > > her
                                      > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                      > > general
                                      > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                      > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                      > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                      > > > > political
                                      > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                      > > curious
                                      > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                                      > > Deb's
                                      > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                      > > attempt
                                      > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                      > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                                      > > last
                                      > > > > to
                                      > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                                      > > fact
                                      > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                      > > immediately
                                      > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                      astounding.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tom Johnson
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                      > > equality
                                      > > > > that the original
                                      > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                                      > > > > Supreme
                                      > > > > Court Chief
                                      > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                                      > > kind
                                      > > > > of
                                      > > > > Justice Bush or
                                      > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                                      > > > > bother
                                      > > > > God when
                                      > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                      never
                                      > > > > happen to mankind.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                                      > > > > Democratic Party for
                                      > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                      > > elements
                                      > > > > that Woodrow
                                      > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                      > > while
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > Republican Party
                                      > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                      > > something
                                      > > > > totally different
                                      > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                      of
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > BookTV interview
                                      > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                      > > > > Roosevelt,
                                      > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                      > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                                      > > > > readable book:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Ram
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                      > > > > JOHNSON
                                      > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                      responses
                                      > > and
                                      > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                      > > entertained
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > most
                                      > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                                      > > born
                                      > > > > into
                                      > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                      > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                      > > > > machinery
                                      > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                      > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                      > > puppet
                                      > > > > of
                                      > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                      reading
                                      > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                      > > trust-busting. He
                                      > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                      > > post-presidency,
                                      > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                                      > > also
                                      > > > > find
                                      > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                      > > close
                                      > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                      successor),
                                      > > and
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                                      > > > > before
                                      > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in

                                      > > the
                                      > > > > 1912
                                      > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                      > > 'congenital
                                      > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                      > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                      Anthony
                                      > > > > Cspan
                                      > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                      that
                                      > > Ram
                                      > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                                      > > she
                                      > > > > was
                                      > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > whole
                                      > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                      interview,
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > Debs
                                      > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                      > > > > learning
                                      > > > > a
                                      > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                      I'd
                                      > > also
                                      > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                      here
                                      > > > > have
                                      > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > Taft
                                      > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                                      > > > > reading
                                      > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                      > > began
                                      > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                                      > > Taft
                                      > > > > into
                                      > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                      > > though
                                      > > > > > probably earlier.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                      prosecutions
                                      > > of
                                      > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                                      > > term,
                                      > > > > but
                                      > >
                                      > === message truncated ===




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                                    • Greg Cannon
                                      I ve also been reading about LaFollette. Here s an interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is from
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                        I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                                        interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                                        Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                                        from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                                        Senator.

                                        One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                                        influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                                        night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                                        as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                                        been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                                        thought that the President might listen to him on the
                                        subject.
                                        "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                                        Congress."
                                        "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                                        President."
                                        A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                                        the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                                        seeing, did not understand that it was already
                                        unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                                        "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                                        said.

                                        --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                                        > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                        > the Teapot Dome
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                        > I
                                        > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                        >
                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                        > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                        > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                        > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                        > Republican
                                        > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                        > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                        > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                        > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                        > administration.
                                      • Ram Lau
                                        Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey. See below for
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 17, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Just another trivia about La Follette. He ranked the most influential
                                          Wisconsinian of the century by a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel survey.
                                          See below for details:

                                          Environmentalist Gaylord A. Nelson dies at age 89; Earth Day Founder,
                                          Wisconsin governor, U.S. Senator
                                          7/3/2005

                                          Gaylord A. Nelson, former Wisconsin governor and U.S. Senator who
                                          founded Earth Day and launched a new wave of environmental activism,
                                          died Sunday, July 3, 2005, at his home in Kensington, Md. He was 89.

                                          Nelson had been in failing health for several months. The cause of
                                          death was cardiovascular failure, his family said. His wife, Carrie
                                          Lee, was by his side when he passed away peacefully about 5:10 a.m. CDT.

                                          Nelson, one of the leading environmentalists of the 20th Century,
                                          joined The Wilderness Society in Washington, D.C. upon leaving the
                                          U.S. Senate in 1981. He served first as the organization's chairman
                                          and later as counselor, and continued to work there on environmental
                                          issues until recent months, when his health declined. He continued to
                                          go to the office at age 88, he said, because, "Our work's not done."

                                          Nelson held elective office for 32 years, including two two-year terms
                                          as Wisconsin governor (1959-1963) and three terms in the U.S. Senate
                                          (1963-1981). He served 10 years in the Wisconsin State Senate before
                                          becoming only the second Democrat to be elected Wisconsin governor in
                                          the 20th Century, and the first to be re-elected.

                                          An early voice for conservation and environmental protection, Nelson
                                          laid out a far-reaching, comprehensive environmental agenda for the
                                          Congress in 1970, and saw much of it became law before he left the
                                          Senate in 1981, at the end of what became known as the Environmental
                                          Decade of the 1970s. In the 10 years after the first Earth Day on
                                          April 22, 1970, 23 major pieces of environmental legislation became law.

                                          He sponsored, co-sponsored or helped pass dozens of environmental laws
                                          aimed at conserving resources and preventing pollution, including the
                                          Wilderness Act and bills preserving the Appalachian Trail and
                                          establishing a national system of hiking trails. Nelson authored
                                          legislation that preserved the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore in
                                          Lake Superior and designated the St. Croix River, which borders
                                          Minnesota and Wisconsin, as a wild and scenic river.

                                          Many of Nelson's ideas were visionary. He fought a long battle to ban
                                          hard detergents containing phosphorous, and was the first member of
                                          Congress to propose a ban on the pesticide DDT, which took years to
                                          accomplish. He once proposed a ban on the internal combustion engine
                                          as an amendment to the Clean Air Act, to get the automobile industry's
                                          attention, and sponsored a constitutional amendment to guarantee
                                          citizens a right to a clean environment.

                                          Nelson established himself as a conservationist, as environmentalists
                                          were then called, as Wisconsin governor, winning passage of a landmark
                                          program to acquire and preserve open space and recreational land. The
                                          $50-million program passed in 1961 was funded by a one-cent per
                                          package tax on cigarettes and became a model for other states. The
                                          program continues today as the Knowles-Nelson Stewardship Program.

                                          Nelson's goal as a U.S. Senator was to elevate environmental issues
                                          and make them a permanent part of the nation's political agenda.

                                          He persuaded President John F. Kennedy to make a national tour to
                                          discuss conservation in 1963, hoping that would ignite a response.
                                          When that brought disappointing results, Nelson continued to press the
                                          issue and in 1969 hit upon the idea of holding a national teach-in on
                                          college campuses on environmental issues, modeled on teach-ins against
                                          the Vietnam War.

                                          On the first Earth Day in 1970, twenty million Americans – 10 per cent
                                          of the population – participated in a wide range of activities
                                          promoting a cleaner Earth.

                                          Earth Day has since grown into an international event, observed in
                                          schools and by organizations on April 22 each year. In 2000, an
                                          estimated 500 million people took part in Earth Day activities in 174
                                          countries. This year, 80% of the schools in the U.S. held Earth Day
                                          activities, organizers said.

                                          Although best known for his environmental work, Nelson also was a key
                                          player in the Senate on consumer protection, civil rights, poverty,
                                          and civil liberties issues. Nelson took on the tire industry on safety
                                          issues, and held 10 years of subcommittee hearings that spotlighted
                                          abuses and problems in the pharmaceutical industry.

                                          He was one of the earliest opponents of the Vietnam War, and drafted
                                          an amendment to the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution to make it clear
                                          the resolution did not authorize a ground war, but Sen. J. William
                                          Fulbright assured Nelson the amendment was not necessary because
                                          President Lyndon B. Johnson had no intention of escalating the ground
                                          war. When escalation came, Nelson cast one of three votes against an
                                          appropriation for the war in 1965, saying, "You need my vote less than
                                          I need my conscience."

                                          The son of a country doctor and a nurse, Nelson was born on June 4,
                                          1916, in Clear Lake, Wisconsin, a village of 700 in northwestern
                                          Wisconsin. His parents were active Progressives who supported Robert
                                          M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette, the populist Wisconsin governor and
                                          Senator who ran as a third party candidate for President in 1924.

                                          He received a bachelor's degree from San Jose State College and a law
                                          degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1942. He served in the Army
                                          Quartermaster Corps during World War II, commanding a company of black
                                          troops in the segregated Army, and was discharged as a first
                                          lieutenant in 1946. When he was elected to the Wisconsin State Senate
                                          in 1948, one of the first bills he introduced was one to desegregate
                                          the state's National Guard.

                                          Nelson met his future wife, Army nurse Carrie Lee Dotson, at a
                                          Pennsylvania Army base but he soon shipped out and did not expect to
                                          see her again. They were reunited on Okinawa, where both were
                                          stationed in 1945. Their story is featured in the best-selling Tom
                                          Brokaw book, "The Greatest Generation."

                                          Nelson's many honors included the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the
                                          nation's highest civilian award, presented in 1995 by President Bill
                                          Clinton. A Wisconsin state park, the Apostle Islands wilderness area,
                                          and the Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of
                                          Wisconsin all are named for him.

                                          When the Audubon Society recognized 100 people who had shaped the
                                          environmental movement in the 20th Century, it said the two political
                                          figures on the list who stood out were Nelson and President Theodore
                                          Roosevelt.

                                          The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel asked a panel of historians and other
                                          experts to name the century's 10 most significant people in Wisconsin.
                                          Nelson ranked fourth, behind Robert M. (Fighting Bob) La Follette,
                                          naturalist, philosopher and author Aldo Leopold, and architect Frank
                                          Lloyd Wright.

                                          Surviving are: Nelson's widow, Carrie Lee; two sons, Gaylord Jr.(and
                                          wife Mary), known as Happy, of Dane, Wis.; and Jeffrey (and wife
                                          Laura), of Kensington, Md.; a daughter, Tia, of Madison, Wis.; and
                                          four grandchildren, Kiva, Jason, Benjamin, and Julia.

                                          Memorial services will be in Madison. Arrangements are pending. Burial
                                          will be in Clear Lake, Wis.

                                          The family asks that memorials in Nelson's name be made to: the
                                          Gaylord Nelson chair at the Gaylord A. Nelson Institute for
                                          Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin; the Gaylord
                                          Nelson Studio of WisconsinEye; the Friends of the Apostle Islands; or
                                          the Wilderness Society.


                                          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > I've also been reading about LaFollette. Here's an
                                          > interesting passage about him in Edmund Morris'
                                          > Theodore Rex (page 442). The dialogue described is
                                          > from 1906, when LaFollette was in his first term as
                                          > Senator.
                                          >
                                          > One of the weakest men in the Republican Party,
                                          > influentially speaking, visited Roosevelt late at
                                          > night to urge him to demand rates that were reasonable
                                          > as well as nondiscriminatory. Robert LaFollette had
                                          > been studying railroad finance for thirty years, and
                                          > thought that the President might listen to him on the
                                          > subject.
                                          > "But you can't get any such bill as that through
                                          > Congress."
                                          > "That is not the first consideration, Mr.
                                          > President."
                                          > A fault line instantly ran between the idealist and
                                          > the practical politician. LaFollette did not see - or,
                                          > seeing, did not understand that it was already
                                          > unbridgeable, and must one day become a chasm.
                                          > "But I want to get something through," Roosevelt
                                          > said.
                                          >
                                          > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                          > > the Teapot Dome
                                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                          > > I
                                          > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                          > >
                                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                          > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                          > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                          > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                          > > Republican
                                          > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                          > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                          > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                          > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                          > > administration.
                                        • Ram Lau
                                          Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive deficit years.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
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                                            Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always begin my judgement
                                            on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during his 8 consecutive
                                            deficit years. And the Cold War and the military spending were not the
                                            real reason for the deficit spending.

                                            The future generations will look at Reagan quite differently, and will
                                            most likely remember the baby boom generation with contempt and
                                            disrespect.

                                            Ram


                                            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                            > the Teapot Dome
                                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal, I
                                            > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                            > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                            > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                            > the scandal had lost the public's interest, Republican
                                            > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                            > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                            > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                            > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                            > administration.
                                            > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration and
                                            > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                            > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                            > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                            > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                            > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted immunity
                                            > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from re
                                            > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                            > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                            > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for pursuing
                                            > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                            > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our long
                                            > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked the
                                            > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of Presidential
                                            > Leadership Survey
                                            > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                            > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                            > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                            > How different things might have been if Bob LaFollette
                                            > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had not.
                                            >
                                            > Tom Johnson
                                            > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                            > Greg,
                                            >
                                            > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                            > Rand Institute in
                                            > her name a decade ago:
                                            >
                                            > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                            >
                                            > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                            >
                                            > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                            > reason, rational
                                            > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                            > capitalism.
                                            >
                                            > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading a
                                            > "cultural
                                            > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                            > anti-individualism,
                                            > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                            > culture. The major
                                            > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                            > is the
                                            > educational institutions—high schools, and above all,
                                            > the
                                            > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                            > shape their lives.
                                            >
                                            > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds that
                                            > historical
                                            > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                            > reverse the
                                            > current political and economic trends in America and
                                            > throughout the
                                            > world requires a reversal of our society's fundamental
                                            > philosophy."
                                            >
                                            > Ram
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                            > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                            > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what they
                                            > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very different
                                            > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                            > were
                                            > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends who
                                            > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                            > > disagree with them on many things. I think the main
                                            > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                            > should
                                            > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                            > Rand
                                            > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                            > them
                                            > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                            > She
                                            > > delivered lectures on birth control, and apparently
                                            > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                            > birth
                                            > > control devices like that weren't legal at the time.
                                            > >
                                            > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                            > she
                                            > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was? What
                                            > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                            > >
                                            > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn Rand,
                                            > > > surely a very
                                            > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                            > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                            > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                            > the
                                            > > > imprisonment.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Ram
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                            > Cannon
                                            > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                            > but
                                            > > > I
                                            > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually pardoned
                                            > > > him.
                                            > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes in
                                            > > > 1920,
                                            > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on the
                                            > > > use
                                            > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                            > Emma
                                            > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                            > was
                                            > > > not
                                            > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                            > Union
                                            > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                            > allowed
                                            > > > to
                                            > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                            > speeches
                                            > > > > against the war and against the draft. Thousands
                                            > > > were
                                            > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall that
                                            > > > her
                                            > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                            > > > general
                                            > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                            > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                            > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                            > > > > > political
                                            > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                            > > > curious
                                            > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume that
                                            > > > Deb's
                                            > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                            > > > attempt
                                            > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                            > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being the
                                            > > > last
                                            > > > > > to
                                            > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and the
                                            > > > fact
                                            > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                            > > > immediately
                                            > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                            > astounding.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                            > > > equality
                                            > > > > > that the original
                                            > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a superb
                                            > > > > > Supreme
                                            > > > > > Court Chief
                                            > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture what
                                            > > > kind
                                            > > > > > of
                                            > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                            > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I only
                                            > > > > > bother
                                            > > > > > God when
                                            > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                            > never
                                            > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election. The
                                            > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                            > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                            > > > elements
                                            > > > > > that Woodrow
                                            > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                            > > > while
                                            > > > > > the
                                            > > > > > Republican Party
                                            > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                            > > > something
                                            > > > > > totally different
                                            > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                            > of
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > BookTV interview
                                            > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                            > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                            > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                            > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a very
                                            > > > > > readable book:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Ram
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                            > > > > > JOHNSON
                                            > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                            > > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                            > responses
                                            > > > and
                                            > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                            > > > entertained
                                            > > > > > the
                                            > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency was
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > most
                                            > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He was
                                            > > > born
                                            > > > > > into
                                            > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                            > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                            > > > > > machinery
                                            > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                            > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                            > > > puppet
                                            > > > > > of
                                            > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                            > reading
                                            > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                            > > > trust-busting. He
                                            > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                            > > > post-presidency,
                                            > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court. I
                                            > > > also
                                            > > > > > find
                                            > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                            > > > close
                                            > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                            > successor),
                                            > > > and
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch together
                                            > > > > > before
                                            > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that in
                                            >
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > 1912
                                            > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                            > > > 'congenital
                                            > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                            > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                            > Anthony
                                            > > > > > Cspan
                                            > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                            > that
                                            > > > Ram
                                            > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling that
                                            > > > she
                                            > > > > > was
                                            > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to see
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > whole
                                            > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                            > interview,
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > Debs
                                            > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                            > > > > > learning
                                            > > > > > a
                                            > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                            > I'd
                                            > > > also
                                            > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                            > here
                                            > > > > > have
                                            > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do with
                                            > > > the
                                            > > > > > Taft
                                            > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography I'm
                                            > > > > > reading
                                            > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                            > > > began
                                            > > > > > > sending him on important missions and taking
                                            > > > Taft
                                            > > > > > into
                                            > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                            > > > though
                                            > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                            > prosecutions
                                            > > > of
                                            > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his first
                                            > > > term,
                                            > > > > > but
                                            > > >
                                            > > === message truncated ===
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Visit your group "prezveepsenator" on the web.
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > prezveepsenator-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                            > Terms of Service.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
                                          • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                            Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 18, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                              totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                              Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                              replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                              passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                              did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                              expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                              Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                              going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                              "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                              Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                              un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                              he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




                                              --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                              ---------------------------------
                                              Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                              begin my judgement
                                              on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                              his 8 consecutive
                                              deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                              spending were not the
                                              real reason for the deficit spending.

                                              The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                              differently, and will
                                              most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                              contempt and
                                              disrespect.

                                              Ram


                                              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                              <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                              > the Teapot Dome
                                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                              I
                                              > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                              >
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                              > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                              > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                              > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                              Republican
                                              > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                              > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                              > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                              > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                              > administration.
                                              > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                              and
                                              > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                              > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                              > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                              > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                              > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                              immunity
                                              > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                              re
                                              > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                              > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                              > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                              pursuing
                                              > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                              > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                              long
                                              > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                              the
                                              > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                              Presidential
                                              > Leadership Survey
                                              >
                                              http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                              > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                              > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                              > How different things might have been if Bob
                                              LaFollette
                                              > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                              not.
                                              >
                                              > Tom Johnson
                                              > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ---------------------------------
                                              > Greg,
                                              >
                                              > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                              > Rand Institute in
                                              > her name a decade ago:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                              >
                                              > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                              >
                                              > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                              > reason, rational
                                              > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                              > capitalism.
                                              >
                                              > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                              a
                                              > "cultural
                                              > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                              > anti-individualism,
                                              > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                              > culture. The major
                                              > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                              > is the
                                              > educational institutions—high schools, and above
                                              all,
                                              > the
                                              > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                              > shape their lives.
                                              >
                                              > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
                                              that
                                              > historical
                                              > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                              > reverse the
                                              > current political and economic trends in America and
                                              > throughout the
                                              > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                              fundamental
                                              > philosophy."
                                              >
                                              > Ram
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                              > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                              > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                              they
                                              > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                              different
                                              > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                              > were
                                              > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                              who
                                              > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                              > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                              main
                                              > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                              > should
                                              > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                              > Rand
                                              > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                              > them
                                              > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                              > She
                                              > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                              apparently
                                              > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                              > birth
                                              > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                              time.
                                              > >
                                              > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                              > she
                                              > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                              What
                                              > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                              > >
                                              > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                              Rand,
                                              > > > surely a very
                                              > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                              > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                              > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                              > the
                                              > > > imprisonment.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Ram
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                              > Cannon
                                              > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                              > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                              > but
                                              > > > I
                                              > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                              pardoned
                                              > > > him.
                                              > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                              in
                                              > > > 1920,
                                              > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                              the
                                              > > > use
                                              > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                              > Emma
                                              > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                              > was
                                              > > > not
                                              > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                              > Union
                                              > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                              > allowed
                                              > > > to
                                              > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                              > speeches
                                              > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                              Thousands
                                              > > > were
                                              > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                              that
                                              > > > her
                                              > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                              > > > general
                                              > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                              > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                              > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                              > > > > > political
                                              > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                              > > > curious
                                              > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                              that
                                              > > > Deb's
                                              > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                              > > > attempt
                                              > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                              > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                              the
                                              > > > last
                                              > > > > > to
                                              > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                              the
                                              > > > fact
                                              > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                              > > > immediately
                                              > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                              > astounding.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                              > > > equality
                                              > > > > > that the original
                                              > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                              superb
                                              > > > > > Supreme
                                              > > > > > Court Chief
                                              > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                              what
                                              > > > kind
                                              > > > > > of
                                              > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                              > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                              only
                                              > > > > > bother
                                              > > > > > God when
                                              > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                              > never
                                              > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                              The
                                              > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                              > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                              > > > elements
                                              > > > > > that Woodrow
                                              > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                              > > > while
                                              > > > > > the
                                              > > > > > Republican Party
                                              > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                              > > > something
                                              > > > > > totally different
                                              > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                              > of
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > BookTV interview
                                              > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                              > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                              > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                              > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                              very
                                              > > > > > readable book:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Ram
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                              THOMAS
                                              > > > > > JOHNSON
                                              > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                              > responses
                                              > > > and
                                              > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                              > > > entertained
                                              > > > > > the
                                              > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                              was
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > most
                                              > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                              was
                                              > > > born
                                              > > > > > into
                                              > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                              > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                              > > > > > machinery
                                              > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                              > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                              > > > puppet
                                              > > > > > of
                                              > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                              > reading
                                              > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                              > > > trust-busting. He
                                              > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                              > > > post-presidency,
                                              > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                              I
                                              > > > also
                                              > > > > > find
                                              > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                              > > > close
                                              > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                              > successor),
                                              > > > and
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                              together
                                              > > > > > before
                                              > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                              in
                                              >
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > 1912
                                              > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                              > > > 'congenital
                                              > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                              > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                              > Anthony
                                              > > > > > Cspan
                                              > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                              > that
                                              > > > Ram
                                              > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                              that
                                              > > > she
                                              > > > > > was
                                              > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                              see
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > whole
                                              > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                              > interview,
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > Debs
                                              > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                              > > > > > learning
                                              > > > > > a
                                              > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                              > I'd
                                              > > > also
                                              > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                              > here
                                              > > > > > have
                                              > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                              with
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > Taft
                                              > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                              I'm
                                              > > > > > reading
                                              > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                              > > > began
                                              > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                              taking
                                              > > > Taft
                                              > > > > > into
                                              > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                              > > > though
                                              > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                              > prosecutions
                                              > > > of
                                              > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                              first
                                              > > > term,
                                              > > > > > but
                                              > > >
                                              > > === message truncated ===
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              ---------------------------------
                                            • Ram Lau
                                              Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His Alzheimer s problem was getting quite real in his last years. His Budget Director, David
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                                Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
                                                Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

                                                His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
                                                how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
                                                the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
                                                conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
                                                driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

                                                Ram


                                                --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
                                                > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                                > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                                > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                                > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
                                                > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                                > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                                > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
                                                > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                                > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                                > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                                > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
                                                > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                                > begin my judgement
                                                > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                                > his 8 consecutive
                                                > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                                > spending were not the
                                                > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                                >
                                                > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                                > differently, and will
                                                > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                                > contempt and
                                                > disrespect.
                                                >
                                                > Ram
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                                > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > > While reading about the Harding administration and
                                                > > the Teapot Dome
                                                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
                                                > I
                                                > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                                > >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                                > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
                                                > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
                                                > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                                > Republican
                                                > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                                > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
                                                > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                                > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                                > > administration.
                                                > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                                > and
                                                > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                                > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                                > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                                > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                                > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                                > immunity
                                                > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                                > re
                                                > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
                                                > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
                                                > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                                > pursuing
                                                > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                                > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                                > long
                                                > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                                > the
                                                > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                                > Presidential
                                                > > Leadership Survey
                                                > >
                                                > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                                > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
                                                > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                                > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                                > LaFollette
                                                > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                                > not.
                                                > >
                                                > > Tom Johnson
                                                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ---------------------------------
                                                > > Greg,
                                                > >
                                                > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
                                                > > Rand Institute in
                                                > > her name a decade ago:
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                                > >
                                                > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                                > >
                                                > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                                > > reason, rational
                                                > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                                > > capitalism.
                                                > >
                                                > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
                                                > a
                                                > > "cultural
                                                > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                                > > anti-individualism,
                                                > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                                > > culture. The major
                                                > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
                                                > > is the
                                                > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                                > all,
                                                > > the
                                                > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                                > > shape their lives.
                                                > >
                                                > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
                                                > that
                                                > > historical
                                                > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
                                                > > reverse the
                                                > > current political and economic trends in America and
                                                > > throughout the
                                                > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                                > fundamental
                                                > > philosophy."
                                                > >
                                                > > Ram
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
                                                > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                                > > wrote:
                                                > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                                > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                                > they
                                                > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                                > different
                                                > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                                > > were
                                                > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                                > who
                                                > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
                                                > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                                > main
                                                > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                                > > should
                                                > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                                > > Rand
                                                > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                                > > them
                                                > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
                                                > > She
                                                > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                                > apparently
                                                > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                                > > birth
                                                > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                                > time.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
                                                > > she
                                                > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                                > What
                                                > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                                > Rand,
                                                > > > > surely a very
                                                > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                                > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                                > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
                                                > > the
                                                > > > > imprisonment.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Ram
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                                > > Cannon
                                                > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                                > > > > wrote:
                                                > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
                                                > > but
                                                > > > > I
                                                > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                                > pardoned
                                                > > > > him.
                                                > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                                > in
                                                > > > > 1920,
                                                > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                                > the
                                                > > > > use
                                                > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
                                                > > Emma
                                                > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
                                                > > was
                                                > > > > not
                                                > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                                > > Union
                                                > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                                > > allowed
                                                > > > > to
                                                > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                                > > speeches
                                                > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                                > Thousands
                                                > > > > were
                                                > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                                > that
                                                > > > > her
                                                > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                                > > > > general
                                                > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                                > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
                                                > > > > > > political
                                                > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
                                                > > > > curious
                                                > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                                > that
                                                > > > > Deb's
                                                > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
                                                > > > > attempt
                                                > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                                > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                                > the
                                                > > > > last
                                                > > > > > > to
                                                > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                                > the
                                                > > > > fact
                                                > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                                > > > > immediately
                                                > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                                > > astounding.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                                > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                                > > > > equality
                                                > > > > > > that the original
                                                > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                                > superb
                                                > > > > > > Supreme
                                                > > > > > > Court Chief
                                                > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                                > what
                                                > > > > kind
                                                > > > > > > of
                                                > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                                > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                                > only
                                                > > > > > > bother
                                                > > > > > > God when
                                                > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                                > > never
                                                > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                                > The
                                                > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                                > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                                > > > > elements
                                                > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                                > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
                                                > > > > while
                                                > > > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > Republican Party
                                                > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                                > > > > something
                                                > > > > > > totally different
                                                > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
                                                > > of
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                                > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                                > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                                > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                                > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                                > very
                                                > > > > > > readable book:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Ram
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > THOMAS
                                                > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                                > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                > > > > > > wrote:
                                                > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                                > > responses
                                                > > > > and
                                                > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                                > > > > entertained
                                                > > > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                                > was
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > most
                                                > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                                > was
                                                > > > > born
                                                > > > > > > into
                                                > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                                > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
                                                > > > > > > machinery
                                                > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
                                                > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
                                                > > > > puppet
                                                > > > > > > of
                                                > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                                > > reading
                                                > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                                > > > > trust-busting. He
                                                > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                                > > > > post-presidency,
                                                > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
                                                > I
                                                > > > > also
                                                > > > > > > find
                                                > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
                                                > > > > close
                                                > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                                > > successor),
                                                > > > > and
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                                > together
                                                > > > > > > before
                                                > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
                                                > in
                                                > >
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > 1912
                                                > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                                > > > > 'congenital
                                                > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                                > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                                > > Anthony
                                                > > > > > > Cspan
                                                > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                                > > that
                                                > > > > Ram
                                                > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                                > that
                                                > > > > she
                                                > > > > > > was
                                                > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                                > see
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > whole
                                                > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                                > > interview,
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > Debs
                                                > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
                                                > > > > > > learning
                                                > > > > > > a
                                                > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                                > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
                                                > > I'd
                                                > > > > also
                                                > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
                                                > > here
                                                > > > > > > have
                                                > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                                > with
                                                > > > > the
                                                > > > > > > Taft
                                                > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                                > I'm
                                                > > > > > > reading
                                                > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
                                                > > > > began
                                                > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                                > taking
                                                > > > > Taft
                                                > > > > > > into
                                                > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
                                                > > > > though
                                                > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                                > > prosecutions
                                                > > > > of
                                                > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                                > first
                                                > > > > term,
                                                > > > > > > but
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > === message truncated ===
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ---------------------------------
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                                              • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                                Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up. In an effort to see it from a historian s viewpoint, I did a little reading in hopes of understanding what the
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                                  Maybe he got Diana and Stockman mixed up.
                                                  In an effort to see it from a historian's viewpoint, I
                                                  did a little reading in hopes of understanding what
                                                  the attraction was.. This from the Wikipedia:
                                                  Some analysts argue that the eventual collapse of the
                                                  Soviet Union was due more to the reawakening of
                                                  internal separatist problems under glasnost, an
                                                  inherent weakness in communist economic theory, and
                                                  the depressed global price of crude oil, on which the
                                                  Soviet economy during those years depended heavily.
                                                  Furthermore, Reagan's much heralded military buildup
                                                  that increased American military spending by 8% per
                                                  annum in fact did not appear to have the planned
                                                  effect of forcing the Soviets to mirror American
                                                  growth: according to CIA estimates, Soviet military
                                                  spending levelled off at a growth rate of 1.3% per
                                                  annum in 1975 and remained at that level for a decade,
                                                  rising slightly to approximately 4.3% in 1985 through
                                                  1987 (though spending on offensive strategic weapons
                                                  continued to grow at 1.3% during that period), before
                                                  returning to 1.3% in 1988. It is also often pointed
                                                  out that many actions popularly attributed to Reagan
                                                  were actually initiated by his predecessor Jimmy
                                                  Carter, such as the increase in military spending and
                                                  the decisions to fund anti-communist militant groups
                                                  in Nicaragua and Afghanistan.

                                                  That didn't help.

                                                  Tom


                                                  --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


                                                  ---------------------------------
                                                  Princess David! He probably said that in his second
                                                  term? His
                                                  Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last
                                                  years.

                                                  His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a
                                                  book confessing
                                                  how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo)
                                                  economics had damage
                                                  the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the
                                                  true
                                                  conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue
                                                  as immoral as
                                                  driving the country into bankrupcy for the future
                                                  generations.

                                                  Ram


                                                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
                                                  <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and
                                                  pols
                                                  > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
                                                  > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
                                                  > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
                                                  > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but
                                                  what
                                                  > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
                                                  > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
                                                  > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South
                                                  Africa,
                                                  > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
                                                  > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
                                                  > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
                                                  > un-Christian." And then there was the incident
                                                  where
                                                  > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ---------------------------------
                                                  > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
                                                  > begin my judgement
                                                  > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
                                                  > his 8 consecutive
                                                  > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
                                                  > spending were not the
                                                  > real reason for the deficit spending.
                                                  >
                                                  > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
                                                  > differently, and will
                                                  > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
                                                  > contempt and
                                                  > disrespect.
                                                  >
                                                  > Ram
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS
                                                  JOHNSON
                                                  > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > > While reading about the Harding administration
                                                  and
                                                  > > the Teapot Dome
                                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome
                                                  scandal,
                                                  > I
                                                  > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
                                                  > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn
                                                  in
                                                  > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular
                                                  and
                                                  > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
                                                  > Republican
                                                  > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
                                                  > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point
                                                  man.
                                                  > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
                                                  > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
                                                  > > administration.
                                                  > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
                                                  > and
                                                  > > the Iran-Contra scandal
                                                  > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
                                                  > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
                                                  > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
                                                  > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
                                                  > immunity
                                                  > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
                                                  > re
                                                  > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill
                                                  Clinton,
                                                  > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher
                                                  R-Cal,
                                                  > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
                                                  > pursuing
                                                  > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
                                                  > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
                                                  > long
                                                  > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
                                                  > the
                                                  > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
                                                  > Presidential
                                                  > > Leadership Survey
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
                                                  > > comprised of prominent presidential historians,
                                                  and
                                                  > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
                                                  > > How different things might have been if Bob
                                                  > LaFollette
                                                  > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
                                                  > not.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Tom Johnson
                                                  > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                                  > > Greg,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the
                                                  Ayn
                                                  > > Rand Institute in
                                                  > > her name a decade ago:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.aynrand.org/
                                                  > >
                                                  > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
                                                  > > reason, rational
                                                  > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
                                                  > > capitalism.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ARI seeks to promote these principles,
                                                  spearheading
                                                  > a
                                                  > > "cultural
                                                  > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
                                                  > > anti-individualism,
                                                  > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
                                                  > > culture. The major
                                                  > > battleground in this fight for reason and
                                                  capitalism
                                                  > > is the
                                                  > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
                                                  > all,
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
                                                  > > shape their lives.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as
                                                  Objectivism�holds
                                                  > that
                                                  > > historical
                                                  > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy.
                                                  To
                                                  > > reverse the
                                                  > > current political and economic trends in America
                                                  and
                                                  > > throughout the
                                                  > > world requires a reversal of our society's
                                                  > fundamental
                                                  > > philosophy."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ram
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                                  Cannon
                                                  > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                                  > > wrote:
                                                  > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
                                                  > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
                                                  > they
                                                  > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
                                                  > different
                                                  > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
                                                  > > were
                                                  > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
                                                  > who
                                                  > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd
                                                  always
                                                  > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
                                                  > main
                                                  > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
                                                  > > should
                                                  > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
                                                  > > Rand
                                                  > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
                                                  > > them
                                                  > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth
                                                  control.
                                                  > > She
                                                  > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
                                                  > apparently
                                                  > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
                                                  > > birth
                                                  > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
                                                  > time.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life.
                                                  Was
                                                  > > she
                                                  > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
                                                  > What
                                                  > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she
                                                  live?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
                                                  > Rand,
                                                  > > > > surely a very
                                                  > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
                                                  > > > > generation?) I sometimes
                                                  > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do
                                                  with
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > > > imprisonment.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Ram
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
                                                  > > Cannon
                                                  > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
                                                  > > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs'
                                                  prosecution,
                                                  > > but
                                                  > > > > I
                                                  > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
                                                  > pardoned
                                                  > > > > him.
                                                  > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
                                                  > in
                                                  > > > > 1920,
                                                  > > > > > though he was still in jail.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > > use
                                                  > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume
                                                  of
                                                  > > Emma
                                                  > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant,
                                                  she
                                                  > > was
                                                  > > > > not
                                                  > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
                                                  > > Union
                                                  > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
                                                  > > allowed
                                                  > > > > to
                                                  > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
                                                  > > speeches
                                                  > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
                                                  > Thousands
                                                  > > > > were
                                                  > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
                                                  > that
                                                  > > > > her
                                                  > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
                                                  > > > > general
                                                  > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
                                                  > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as
                                                  a
                                                  > > > > > > political
                                                  > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda.
                                                  I'm
                                                  > > > > curious
                                                  > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
                                                  > that
                                                  > > > > Deb's
                                                  > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was
                                                  an
                                                  > > > > attempt
                                                  > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
                                                  > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > > last
                                                  > > > > > > to
                                                  > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > > fact
                                                  > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
                                                  > > > > immediately
                                                  > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
                                                  > > astounding.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                                  > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
                                                  > > > > equality
                                                  > > > > > > that the original
                                                  > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
                                                  > superb
                                                  > > > > > > Supreme
                                                  > > > > > > Court Chief
                                                  > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
                                                  > what
                                                  > > > > kind
                                                  > > > > > > of
                                                  > > > > > > Justice Bush or
                                                  > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
                                                  > only
                                                  > > > > > > bother
                                                  > > > > > > God when
                                                  > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
                                                  > > never
                                                  > > > > > > happen to mankind.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
                                                  > The
                                                  > > > > > > Democratic Party for
                                                  > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
                                                  > > > > elements
                                                  > > > > > > that Woodrow
                                                  > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan
                                                  embraced,
                                                  > > > > while
                                                  > > > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > Republican Party
                                                  > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
                                                  > > > > something
                                                  > > > > > > totally different
                                                  > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the
                                                  transcript
                                                  > > of
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > BookTV interview
                                                  > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
                                                  > > > > > > Roosevelt,
                                                  > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
                                                  > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
                                                  > very
                                                  > > > > > > readable book:
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Ram
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  > THOMAS
                                                  > > > > > > JOHNSON
                                                  > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
                                                  > > > > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
                                                  > > responses
                                                  > > > > and
                                                  > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
                                                  > > > > entertained
                                                  > > > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
                                                  > was
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > most
                                                  > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
                                                  > was
                                                  > > > > born
                                                  > > > > > > into
                                                  > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
                                                  > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the
                                                  party
                                                  > > > > > > machinery
                                                  > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912
                                                  Republican
                                                  > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included
                                                  a
                                                  > > > > puppet
                                                  > > > > > > of
                                                  > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
                                                  > > reading
                                                  > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
                                                  > > > > trust-busting. He
                                                  > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
                                                  > > > > post-presidency,
                                                  > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme
                                                  Court.
                                                  > I
                                                  > > > > also
                                                  > > > > > > find
                                                  > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had
                                                  been
                                                  > > > > close
                                                  > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
                                                  > > successor),
                                                  > > > > and
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
                                                  > together
                                                  > > > > > > before
                                                  > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in
                                                  that
                                                  > in
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > 1912
                                                  > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
                                                  > > > > 'congenital
                                                  > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
                                                  > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
                                                  > > Anthony
                                                  > > > > > > Cspan
                                                  > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
                                                  > > that
                                                  > > > > Ram
                                                  > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
                                                  > that
                                                  > > > > she
                                                  > > > > > > was
                                                  > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
                                                  > see
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > whole
                                                  > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
                                                  > > interview,
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > Debs
                                                  > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question.
                                                  I'm
                                                  > > > > > > learning
                                                  > > > > > > a
                                                  > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                                  > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom,
                                                  though
                                                  > > I'd
                                                  > > > > also
                                                  > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or
                                                  anyone
                                                  > > here
                                                  > > > > > > have
                                                  > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
                                                  > with
                                                  > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > Taft
                                                  > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
                                                  > I'm
                                                  > > > > > > reading
                                                  > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how
                                                  Teddy
                                                  > > > > began
                                                  > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
                                                  > taking
                                                  > > > > Taft
                                                  > > > > > > into
                                                  > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as
                                                  1905
                                                  > > > > though
                                                  > > > > > > > probably earlier.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
                                                  > > prosecutions
                                                  > > > > of
                                                  > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
                                                  > first
                                                  > > > > term,
                                                  > > > > > > but
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > === message truncated ===
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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