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Re: Books That Have Changed My Life

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  • tonymaloley
    Wow, you guys read? Damn I m funny. Anyway, nice piece, Ram. I didn t know you were from Hong Kong. Welcome to America, 8 years late. Actually I m not a big
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 13, 2005
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      Wow, you guys read?

      Damn I'm funny.

      Anyway, nice piece, Ram. I didn't know you were from Hong Kong.
      Welcome to America, 8 years late.

      Actually I'm not a big reader, something happened to my brain when
      the testosterone kicked in, haven't really liked it since I was in
      6th grade. But I've read some...

      What has reminded me lately of Orwell's 1984 is the torture. The
      vivid descriptions in the book made a memorable impression, I guess.
      Listening to the news, I find myself thinking back to how the
      narrator (I think) stated with certainty that when pain is applied,
      they can make you do anything, anything as long as the pain will stop.

      Ram made a good point about the doublethink. It's scary.

      Did anyone else read Orwell's short story about shooting an
      elephant? He once lived in India. I don't know if it had any big
      symbolic value, it's just an interesting story.

      Now that I'm thinking about books, the perverse little society in
      Lord Of The Flies always seemed very plausible to me. People are
      capable of some sick sh**.

      On a lighter note, I loved Kidnapped (Stevenson) when I was 13. I
      guess you guys probably aren't 13. But I want to read it again.

      And what's with Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn and all the 'postr'phes's?

      I might have to check out Al Franken's book. I'm afraid that Thomas
      Paine would read like the constitution, so I want to see if they
      have "Thomas Paine For Dummies." If they do, I'll give it to George
      when I'm finished. -Tony



      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "greg" <gregcannon1@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I wasn't sure what to make of Tung's resignation. He seems to have
      > been very unpopular in Hong Kong, but I guess it was his policies
      that
      > made him unpopular and his successor won't change those policies.
      >
      > As far as I know (I haven't finished the book yet of course), the
      > government wasn't involved in the Haymarket bombing itself. It
      > probably was a real anarchist who threw the bomb, not a government
      > agent. But the people who were tried and executed for the bombing
      were
      > probably not involved, and probably didn't even know the bomber.
      > That's the impression I've gotten so far from the book. Some of them
      > had been for years writing articles urging their fellow anarchists
      to
      > use dynamite against their enemies, but there is of course a
      > difference between writing an article like that and actually being
      > involved in the crime. And after the bombing happened, the press
      > apparently distorted what had happened to make it seem like the
      > accused men were definitely guilty.
      >
      > There apparently was one Chicago police officer, Captain Michael J.
      > Schaack, involved in the investigation that, according to the book,
      > "was blessed with boundless energy, an immodest belief in his own
      > talents, a flair for the dramatic, and an immoderate appetite for
      > fame. Houses were searched upon the slighest suspicion. Bombs were
      > discovered all over Chicago. The newspapers published details of
      > impossible plots and conspiracies which Schaack, the master-
      detective,
      > had unconvered. Most of the bombs were either non-existent or had
      been
      > planted by the police, and the conspiracies were manifestly the
      > product of the heroic captain's imagination. Tales, which at any
      other
      > time would have been laughed down as preposterous, gained credence."
      >
      > The Chicago police chief later said, "After we got the anarchist
      > societies broken up, Schaack wanted to send out men to organize new
      > societies right away. You see what this would do. He wanted to keep
      > the thing boiling, keep himself prominent before the public. Well, I
      > sat down on that ... and, of course, Schaack didn't like it."
      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Ram Lau" <ramlau@y...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > > my high school freshman English class), and Zhuangzi (am I
      correct
      > > > in thinking that Zhuangzi is the same person as Chuang-Tzu? I
      read
      > > > a book by him long ago, which included the famous story about
      > > > the man dreaming he was a butterfly). And I'm reading the Bible
      > >
      > > Yeah, both names refer to the same person. The butterfly story is
      one
      > > of my favorites. I went to a Christian school for 12 years, so I
      had
      > > to study the Bible quite a bit.
      > >
      > >
      > > > Are you from Hong Kong, Ram? What do you think about the recent
      > > > resignation of the Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa?
      > >
      > > Yes, Greg. I was born and raised in Hong Kong. The resignation is
      a
      > > very bad sign. Big Brother obviously wants to take care of that
      tiny
      > > place.
      > >
      > >
      > > > policies to fight poverty and ignorance." makes me think you're
      > > > considering going into politcs yourself. I think you'd do a
      good
      > >
      > > If possible, I would love to work for President Obama someday.
      > >
      > >
      > > > If I was to make a list of books like that I guess I'd include
      Henry
      > > > David Thoreau, Jack Kerouac, Stephen King, P.G. Wodehouse, and
      Terry
      > > > Pratchett. I have a bad habit of reading many books at once. I
      keep
      > >
      > > Very fine choices. I wanted to write about Tom Paine's The Age of
      > > Reason in the paper, but I decided not to because the book is
      probably
      > > too anti-Christ. I also wanted to mention Eleanor Roosevelt's last
      > book.
      > >
      > >
      > > > The Haymarket Affair by Henry David, A History Of The Middle
      East by
      > > > Peter Mansfield, the 9/11 Report from the Commission, Theodore
      Rex
      > >
      > > I want to read all of them, but probably won't have time until
      next
      > > year. Did the federal government get involved in the Haymarket
      Affair
      > > at all?
      > >
      > > Ram
    • Ram Lau
      ... Sadly enough, I agree. ... Thanks Tony. Actually it s been just about 5 years. I didn t come until the Gore machine destroyed Bill Bradley and the Bush
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 13, 2005
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        > Wow, you guys read?
        > Damn I'm funny.

        Sadly enough, I agree.


        > Anyway, nice piece, Ram. I didn't know you were from Hong Kong.
        > Welcome to America, 8 years late.

        Thanks Tony. Actually it's been just about 5 years. I didn't come
        until the Gore machine destroyed Bill Bradley and the Bush machine
        destroyed John McCain.


        > Ram made a good point about the doublethink. It's scary.

        Jon Stewart once jokingly suggested that it's the "political Bible"
        of the Bush adminstration. I'm not surprised.


        > Did anyone else read Orwell's short story about shooting an
        > elephant? He once lived in India. I don't know if it had any big
        > symbolic value, it's just an interesting story.

        I did the same thing that Greg did. Will read it later.


        > Now that I'm thinking about books, the perverse little society in
        > Lord Of The Flies always seemed very plausible to me. People are
        > capable of some sick sh**.

        When I get pessimistic about what the world of the next generation
        will look like, I always think about the 48-9% minority who rejected
        Bush last year. There is always some hope.


        > And what's with Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn and all the 'postr'phes's?

        I was just saying that Tom Sawyer and Robin Hood deserve at least an
        honorable mention. Done. Huck Finn caused some controversy lately,
        by the way.


        > Paine would read like the constitution, so I want to see if they
        > have "Thomas Paine For Dummies." If they do, I'll give it to

        Both Reason and Liars are very easy to read. Sure Reason isn't a
        laugh-out-loud type, but it's definitely one of the most thought-
        provoking masterpieces ever written in human history.

        Ram
      • Jesse Gordon
        ... Symbolic value, a bit, but political value much more. It describes how imperial representatives are limited in their power by being hated by their imperial
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 13, 2005
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          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "tonymaloley" <am7788zz@m...>
          wrote:
          > Did anyone else read Orwell's short story about shooting an
          > elephant? He once lived in India. I don't know if it had any big
          > symbolic value, it's just an interesting story.

          Symbolic value, a bit, but political value much more. It describes
          how imperial representatives are limited in their power by being
          hated by their imperial subjects. Orwell, as an imperial bureaucrat
          in a British colony, had to shoot an elephant even though he didn't
          want to, because the colonials expected him to do it. Orwell explains
          how the colonials hate their overseers, too.

          The relevance for today is to replace "Britain" with "America" and
          replace "imperial" with "military" (or something). America now rules
          the world like Britain did then, and is equally as hated by
          our "colonial subjects". The biggest difference is that we don't have
          any clearly defined empire, like Britain did. Our "colonies" mostly
          revolve around oil, and our unwilling subjects are those people who
          happen to live in areas that have the misfortune to supply oil.

          We use the pretext that "democracy is on the march" and blah blah
          blah, but that doesn't change that our colonial subjects hate us as
          much as Britain's subjects hated Orwell. (Britain DID democratize
          their colonies, and "improve" them in all sorts of other ways, so
          they could just as well have said that democracy was on the march).
          That hatred is the single most important basis for al Qaeda's
          existence, and hence the single largest cause of 9/11.
        • Ram Lau
          I can t help but wonder what the next superpower will do. Oil will be a lesser issue since we are running out in the whole world anyway. Are we talking about
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 15, 2005
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            I can't help but wonder what the next superpower will do. Oil will be
            a lesser issue since we are running out in the whole world anyway. Are
            we talking about outer space yet? It will be interesting to see what
            kind of role the next hegemony will play.

            Ram
          • greg
            I guess it depends on how long the U.S. remains a superpower. We seem to be declining economically, and eventually we might be overtaken in that regard by
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 15, 2005
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              I guess it depends on how long the U.S. remains a superpower. We seem
              to be declining economically, and eventually we might be overtaken in
              that regard by China, India, and the EU. Or maybe not, who knows? Our
              military is still very large, well-trained, with all the latest
              technological gadgets and isn't likely to be overtaken by anyone
              anytime soon, but it now has a problem finding enough recruits.

              I'm not sure we really are running the world as much as it appears we
              are, or as much we would like to be. But we are trying, for sure.

              About outer space- well, I should admit I'm a big Star Trek fan and
              thus have romantic notions about space exploration. But I imagine in
              the next century or two colonies will be built on the moon and Mars.
              To do much more than that would probably require incredible
              technological advances. Population is growing very fast and some
              countries are running out of room, so starting a colony on another
              planet might seem like a good solution. And in the very long run, when
              the sun dies it'll probably take the Earth with it, so it might be a
              good idea to colonize other places before then.

              I remember last year the president of India was suggesting that India
              and the U.S. build a joint colony, on either the moon or Mars, I
              forget which. I don't remember if he got a reply. If and when we do
              start colonizing, will it happen in the same way that the Europeans
              colonized the Americas? There won't be any natives to fight, but how
              long before two colonies on the moon are competing for room or for
              natural resources of some sort, and then start fighting each other? Or
              rebel against their parent country back on Earth? What do you all think?

              --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Ram Lau" <ramlau@y...> wrote:
              >
              > I can't help but wonder what the next superpower will do. Oil will be
              > a lesser issue since we are running out in the whole world anyway. Are
              > we talking about outer space yet? It will be interesting to see what
              > kind of role the next hegemony will play.
              >
              > Ram
            • Ram Lau
              ... We haven t really found anything useful on the moon... or have we? And which founding father would be most likely to be the one who goes to the moon to pay
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 16, 2005
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                > long before two colonies on the moon are competing for room or for
                > natural resources of some sort, and then start fighting each other?

                We haven't really found anything useful on the moon... or have we? And
                which founding father would be most likely to be the one who goes to
                the moon to pay a visit? Ben Franklin again?

                Ram
              • tonymaloley
                It is only logical to look at why the crazies want to kill Americans. It hurts a lot of people s feelings to hear this stuff, but Osama didn t just pull our
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 16, 2005
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                  It is only logical to look at why the crazies want to kill
                  Americans. It hurts a lot of people's feelings to hear this stuff,
                  but Osama didn't just pull our name out of a hat. The crazies don't
                  want any infidel encroaching on their sovereignty/land/wasteland or
                  their religion or homes or their lives. I hate to admit it, but the
                  bombs that used to blow up civilians in the west bank and in Lebanon
                  not too long ago do really say "made in USA." I criticize bombings,
                  but that reminds me, it has been a while, so I guess I appreciate
                  Israel's progress in the field of diplomacy.

                  On to Lebanon. Does anyone else think it looks a bit strange for the
                  UN or Nato or whoever to all of a sudden consider freedom for Lebanon
                  to be a huge priority? Wasn't it around 1982 that the crazies bombed
                  the marine barracks, and we pulled the hell out of there? Before
                  this year, have you heard any American who wasn't Lebanese indicate
                  that they ever gave a rat's ass about Lebanon, for over 20 years? I
                  guess it's better late than never. I'm skeptical about the
                  gloriousness of Lebanon's new era, though.

                  PS I'm half Lebanese. Maybe I'm a little sensitive to this stuff.
                  All the angry young men that used to throw rocks at soldiers, and get
                  themselves shot, well, I think it means more to an American when the
                  people getting shot year in, year out, look like their cousins,
                  instead of seeing them as just the kind of people who drive the taxis
                  and talk funny with rags on their heads.

                  - Tony


                  --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Jesse Gordon" <jesse@j...>
                  wrote:

                  > We use the pretext that "democracy is on the march" and blah blah
                  > blah, but that doesn't change that our colonial subjects hate us as
                  > much as Britain's subjects hated Orwell. (Britain DID democratize
                  > their colonies, and "improve" them in all sorts of other ways, so
                  > they could just as well have said that democracy was on the march).
                  > That hatred is the single most important basis for al Qaeda's
                  > existence, and hence the single largest cause of 9/11.
                • greg
                  I remember hearing once there s quite a bit of uranium on the moon, but I don t have a source to back that up, and there doesn t seem to be a great lack of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 17, 2005
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                    I remember hearing once there's quite a bit of uranium on the moon,
                    but I don't have a source to back that up, and there doesn't seem to
                    be a great lack of uranium around here.

                    I can see Ben Franklin enjoying a visit to the moon. He seemed to like
                    to travel and to experience new things.
                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Ram Lau" <ramlau@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > long before two colonies on the moon are competing for room or for
                    > > natural resources of some sort, and then start fighting each other?
                    >
                    > We haven't really found anything useful on the moon... or have we? And
                    > which founding father would be most likely to be the one who goes to
                    > the moon to pay a visit? Ben Franklin again?
                    >
                    > Ram
                  • greg
                    Could you fill me in on what exactly was happening in Lebanon in 1982? I was born that year, and wasn t paying very close attention to politics. I suspect that
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 17, 2005
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                      Could you fill me in on what exactly was happening in Lebanon in 1982?
                      I was born that year, and wasn't paying very close attention to politics.

                      I suspect that a big reason why so many people, particularly in
                      Washington, seem interested in Lebanon right now is more to do with
                      having a chance to deal a blow against Syria, who they've ticked off
                      at pretty much ever since the official end of the Iraq war. What do
                      you think will happen in Lebanon if the Syrian troops really do
                      withdraw? Will there be a glorious new free Lebanese democracy? Will
                      it return to civil war?
                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "tonymaloley" <am7788zz@m...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > It is only logical to look at why the crazies want to kill
                      > Americans. It hurts a lot of people's feelings to hear this stuff,
                      > but Osama didn't just pull our name out of a hat. The crazies don't
                      > want any infidel encroaching on their sovereignty/land/wasteland or
                      > their religion or homes or their lives. I hate to admit it, but the
                      > bombs that used to blow up civilians in the west bank and in Lebanon
                      > not too long ago do really say "made in USA." I criticize bombings,
                      > but that reminds me, it has been a while, so I guess I appreciate
                      > Israel's progress in the field of diplomacy.
                      >
                      > On to Lebanon. Does anyone else think it looks a bit strange for the
                      > UN or Nato or whoever to all of a sudden consider freedom for Lebanon
                      > to be a huge priority? Wasn't it around 1982 that the crazies bombed
                      > the marine barracks, and we pulled the hell out of there? Before
                      > this year, have you heard any American who wasn't Lebanese indicate
                      > that they ever gave a rat's ass about Lebanon, for over 20 years? I
                      > guess it's better late than never. I'm skeptical about the
                      > gloriousness of Lebanon's new era, though.
                      >
                      > PS I'm half Lebanese. Maybe I'm a little sensitive to this stuff.
                      > All the angry young men that used to throw rocks at soldiers, and get
                      > themselves shot, well, I think it means more to an American when the
                      > people getting shot year in, year out, look like their cousins,
                      > instead of seeing them as just the kind of people who drive the taxis
                      > and talk funny with rags on their heads.
                      >
                      > - Tony
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Jesse Gordon" <jesse@j...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > We use the pretext that "democracy is on the march" and blah blah
                      > > blah, but that doesn't change that our colonial subjects hate us as
                      > > much as Britain's subjects hated Orwell. (Britain DID democratize
                      > > their colonies, and "improve" them in all sorts of other ways, so
                      > > they could just as well have said that democracy was on the march).
                      > > That hatred is the single most important basis for al Qaeda's
                      > > existence, and hence the single largest cause of 9/11.
                    • tonymaloley
                      This is from a nice site : http://timelines.ws/countries/LEBANON.HTML (I m just trusting them that it s accurate, I was a kid myself!) To sum it up, all hell
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 20, 2005
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                        This is from a nice site : http://timelines.ws/countries/LEBANON.HTML
                        (I'm just trusting them that it's accurate, I was a kid myself!)
                        To sum it up, all hell broke loose there for a few decades. Here are
                        a few events concerning US troops.


                        1982 Jul 6, President Ronald Reagan agreed to contribute U.S.
                        troops to the peacekeeping unit in Beirut.
                        (HN, 7/6/98)

                        1982 Aug 20, Some 800 US Marines landed in Beirut, Lebanon, to
                        oversee the withdrawal from Lebanon. In 1983 some 250 Marines and
                        sailors were killed in two different car and truck bombs.
                        (MC, 8/20/02)

                        1983 Apr 18, At the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon, 62
                        people, including 17 Americans, were killed by a suicide bomber. In
                        1996 sixteen Islamic militants were ordered to stand trial by a
                        military court in Lebanon. Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh was
                        suspected of involvement.
                        (WSJ, 3/26/96, p.A-1)(AP, 4/18/97)(WSJ, 9/19/01, p.A14)

                        1983 Oct 15, US Marine sharpshooters killed 5 snipers at
                        Beirut Intl. Airport.
                        (MC, 10/15/01)

                        1983 Oct 23, A truck filled with explosives, driven by a
                        Moslem suicide terrorist, crashed into the U.S. Marine barracks near
                        the Beirut International Airport in Lebanon. The bomb killed 241
                        Marines and sailors and injured 80. Almost simultaneously, a similar
                        incident occurred at French military headquarters, where 58 died and
                        15 were injured. Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh was suspected of
                        involvement.
                        (TMC, 1994, p.1983)(USAT, 6/26/96, p.1A)(WSJ, 8/1/96/p.B1)(AP,
                        10/23/97) (HN, 10/23/98)(WSJ, 9/19/01, p.A14)

                        1983 Dec 4, US jet fighters struck Syrian anti-aircraft
                        positions in Lebanon.
                        (MC, 12/4/01)

                        1984 Feb 26, Last US marines in multinational peace-keeping
                        force in Lebanon left Beirut.
                        (SC, 2/26/02)



                        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "greg" <gregcannon1@y...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Could you fill me in on what exactly was happening in Lebanon in
                        1982?
                        > I was born that year, and wasn't paying very close attention to
                        politics.
                        >
                        > I suspect that a big reason why so many people, particularly in
                        > Washington, seem interested in Lebanon right now is more to do with
                        > having a chance to deal a blow against Syria, who they've ticked off
                        > at pretty much ever since the official end of the Iraq war. What do
                        > you think will happen in Lebanon if the Syrian troops really do
                        > withdraw? Will there be a glorious new free Lebanese democracy? Will
                        > it return to civil war?
                        > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "tonymaloley"
                        <am7788zz@m...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > It is only logical to look at why the crazies want to kill
                        > > Americans. It hurts a lot of people's feelings to hear this
                        stuff,
                        > > but Osama didn't just pull our name out of a hat. The crazies
                        don't
                        > > want any infidel encroaching on their sovereignty/land/wasteland
                        or
                        > > their religion or homes or their lives. I hate to admit it, but
                        the
                        > > bombs that used to blow up civilians in the west bank and in
                        Lebanon
                        > > not too long ago do really say "made in USA." I criticize
                        bombings,
                        > > but that reminds me, it has been a while, so I guess I appreciate
                        > > Israel's progress in the field of diplomacy.
                        > >
                        > > On to Lebanon. Does anyone else think it looks a bit strange for
                        the
                        > > UN or Nato or whoever to all of a sudden consider freedom for
                        Lebanon
                        > > to be a huge priority? Wasn't it around 1982 that the crazies
                        bombed
                        > > the marine barracks, and we pulled the hell out of there? Before
                        > > this year, have you heard any American who wasn't Lebanese
                        indicate
                        > > that they ever gave a rat's ass about Lebanon, for over 20
                        years? I
                        > > guess it's better late than never. I'm skeptical about the
                        > > gloriousness of Lebanon's new era, though.
                        > >
                        > > PS I'm half Lebanese. Maybe I'm a little sensitive to this
                        stuff.
                        > > All the angry young men that used to throw rocks at soldiers, and
                        get
                        > > themselves shot, well, I think it means more to an American when
                        the
                        > > people getting shot year in, year out, look like their cousins,
                        > > instead of seeing them as just the kind of people who drive the
                        taxis
                        > > and talk funny with rags on their heads.
                        > >
                        > > - Tony
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Jesse Gordon"
                        <jesse@j...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > We use the pretext that "democracy is on the march" and blah
                        blah
                        > > > blah, but that doesn't change that our colonial subjects hate
                        us as
                        > > > much as Britain's subjects hated Orwell. (Britain DID
                        democratize
                        > > > their colonies, and "improve" them in all sorts of other ways,
                        so
                        > > > they could just as well have said that democracy was on the
                        march).
                        > > > That hatred is the single most important basis for al Qaeda's
                        > > > existence, and hence the single largest cause of 9/11.
                      • greg
                        I read the whole timeline, it was very interesting. It seemed like during the period of Syrian occupation that the number of violent incidents did go down, but
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 21, 2005
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                          I read the whole timeline, it was very interesting. It seemed like
                          during the period of Syrian occupation that the number of violent
                          incidents did go down, but never really stopped. So when and if the
                          Syrian troops leave, will the level of violence remain about what it's
                          been the last few years, or will it rise or fall?

                          Reading this reminded me of something I read a few days ago in that
                          "History of the Middle East" book. In the late 50s and early 60s,
                          there were several attempts to unite Egypt and Syria into one country.
                          After the Baathists took power in Iraq, they also tried to include
                          Iraq. But none of the attempts worked, apparently because Egypt (ruled
                          by Nasser at the time) wanted the new country (I think it was to be
                          called the United Arab Republic) to be ruled from Cairo and dominated
                          by Egyptians. That might've made sense since their economy was better
                          and they were a bit more politically stable, but the others didn't
                          like it. I was very surprised when I read about it, I'd never heard
                          that had happened. Things probably would be quite a bit different
                          today if it had worked out.
                          --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "tonymaloley" <am7788zz@m...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > This is from a nice site : http://timelines.ws/countries/LEBANON.HTML
                          > (I'm just trusting them that it's accurate, I was a kid myself!)
                          > To sum it up, all hell broke loose there for a few decades. Here are
                          > a few events concerning US troops.
                          >
                          >
                          > 1982 Jul 6, President Ronald Reagan agreed to contribute U.S.
                          > troops to the peacekeeping unit in Beirut.
                          > (HN, 7/6/98)
                          >
                          > 1982 Aug 20, Some 800 US Marines landed in Beirut, Lebanon, to
                          > oversee the withdrawal from Lebanon. In 1983 some 250 Marines and
                          > sailors were killed in two different car and truck bombs.
                          > (MC, 8/20/02)
                          >
                          > 1983 Apr 18, At the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon, 62
                          > people, including 17 Americans, were killed by a suicide bomber. In
                          > 1996 sixteen Islamic militants were ordered to stand trial by a
                          > military court in Lebanon. Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh was
                          > suspected of involvement.
                          > (WSJ, 3/26/96, p.A-1)(AP, 4/18/97)(WSJ, 9/19/01, p.A14)
                          >
                          > 1983 Oct 15, US Marine sharpshooters killed 5 snipers at
                          > Beirut Intl. Airport.
                          > (MC, 10/15/01)
                          >
                          > 1983 Oct 23, A truck filled with explosives, driven by a
                          > Moslem suicide terrorist, crashed into the U.S. Marine barracks near
                          > the Beirut International Airport in Lebanon. The bomb killed 241
                          > Marines and sailors and injured 80. Almost simultaneously, a similar
                          > incident occurred at French military headquarters, where 58 died and
                          > 15 were injured. Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh was suspected of
                          > involvement.
                          > (TMC, 1994, p.1983)(USAT, 6/26/96, p.1A)(WSJ, 8/1/96/p.B1)(AP,
                          > 10/23/97) (HN, 10/23/98)(WSJ, 9/19/01, p.A14)
                          >
                          > 1983 Dec 4, US jet fighters struck Syrian anti-aircraft
                          > positions in Lebanon.
                          > (MC, 12/4/01)
                          >
                          > 1984 Feb 26, Last US marines in multinational peace-keeping
                          > force in Lebanon left Beirut.
                          > (SC, 2/26/02)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "greg" <gregcannon1@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Could you fill me in on what exactly was happening in Lebanon in
                          > 1982?
                          > > I was born that year, and wasn't paying very close attention to
                          > politics.
                          > >
                          > > I suspect that a big reason why so many people, particularly in
                          > > Washington, seem interested in Lebanon right now is more to do with
                          > > having a chance to deal a blow against Syria, who they've ticked off
                          > > at pretty much ever since the official end of the Iraq war. What do
                          > > you think will happen in Lebanon if the Syrian troops really do
                          > > withdraw? Will there be a glorious new free Lebanese democracy? Will
                          > > it return to civil war?
                          > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "tonymaloley"
                          > <am7788zz@m...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > It is only logical to look at why the crazies want to kill
                          > > > Americans. It hurts a lot of people's feelings to hear this
                          > stuff,
                          > > > but Osama didn't just pull our name out of a hat. The crazies
                          > don't
                          > > > want any infidel encroaching on their sovereignty/land/wasteland
                          > or
                          > > > their religion or homes or their lives. I hate to admit it, but
                          > the
                          > > > bombs that used to blow up civilians in the west bank and in
                          > Lebanon
                          > > > not too long ago do really say "made in USA." I criticize
                          > bombings,
                          > > > but that reminds me, it has been a while, so I guess I appreciate
                          > > > Israel's progress in the field of diplomacy.
                          > > >
                          > > > On to Lebanon. Does anyone else think it looks a bit strange for
                          > the
                          > > > UN or Nato or whoever to all of a sudden consider freedom for
                          > Lebanon
                          > > > to be a huge priority? Wasn't it around 1982 that the crazies
                          > bombed
                          > > > the marine barracks, and we pulled the hell out of there? Before
                          > > > this year, have you heard any American who wasn't Lebanese
                          > indicate
                          > > > that they ever gave a rat's ass about Lebanon, for over 20
                          > years? I
                          > > > guess it's better late than never. I'm skeptical about the
                          > > > gloriousness of Lebanon's new era, though.
                          > > >
                          > > > PS I'm half Lebanese. Maybe I'm a little sensitive to this
                          > stuff.
                          > > > All the angry young men that used to throw rocks at soldiers, and
                          > get
                          > > > themselves shot, well, I think it means more to an American when
                          > the
                          > > > people getting shot year in, year out, look like their cousins,
                          > > > instead of seeing them as just the kind of people who drive the
                          > taxis
                          > > > and talk funny with rags on their heads.
                          > > >
                          > > > - Tony
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, "Jesse Gordon"
                          > <jesse@j...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > We use the pretext that "democracy is on the march" and blah
                          > blah
                          > > > > blah, but that doesn't change that our colonial subjects hate
                          > us as
                          > > > > much as Britain's subjects hated Orwell. (Britain DID
                          > democratize
                          > > > > their colonies, and "improve" them in all sorts of other ways,
                          > so
                          > > > > they could just as well have said that democracy was on the
                          > march).
                          > > > > That hatred is the single most important basis for al Qaeda's
                          > > > > existence, and hence the single largest cause of 9/11.
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