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Re: [prezveepsenator] The "Hate-America" Left

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  • richard kelly
    Thomas: I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long time. Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD dissertation. I havent noticed anyone else attaching
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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      Thomas:

      I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long time.
      Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD dissertation.
      I havent noticed anyone else attaching footnotes and
      bibliographies at the end of their messages. As far
      as the press being a bunch of cowards, I agree with
      that. Most of them were too scared to print the
      Mohammed cartoons. "Out of respect for our readers"
      yeah right. These cartoons were a giant news story
      for weeks, and of course they should have been
      included in coverage of the story. A few papers, to
      their credit, showed some intestinal fortitude, as for
      the Post, Times, etc. draw your own conclusions.


      R.K.

      --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

      > Richard.. I hope you can be open-minded enough to
      > consider other points of view besides Rush Limbaugh
      > talking points, especially since Rush is on the
      > White
      > House payroll.
      > You might read Pulitzer-prize winning journalist
      > Haynes Johnson's take on the media today; "The Age
      > Of
      > Anxiety: McCarthyism To Terrorism, " in which he
      > describes the current press as more cowardly and
      > subservient to power than the press during the
      > McCarthy era. In other words, the current mainstream
      > press is doing more to protect this current
      > president
      > than in any time in history.
      > Your points of view are welcome here but your
      > debating
      > style will not carry the day when you begin your
      > blog
      > by saying:
      > "First, we all know that if a Democratic President
      > had asked the NY Times not to run the story, about
      > this financial database, the Times wouldnt have run
      > it."
      > I know no such thing and it strikes me as paranoid
      > opinion which you failed to give us any respected
      > sources who feel the same way.
      > Don't forget that 80% of print and broadcast
      > journalism companies are owned by 5 very rich
      > families, who are enjoying huge windfalls from this
      > administration.
      >
      > Tom
      >
      >
      > --- richard kelly <richwkelly@...> wrote:
      >
      > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in time
      > of
      > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
      > World
      > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would it
      > have
      > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
      > U.S.
      > > to
      > > win the war? America used be united in a time of
      > > war,
      > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican is
      > in
      > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
      > > partisan.
      > >
      > > Richard Kelly
      > >
      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
      > > > question the patriotism
      > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
      > > > politically and
      > > > ideologically.
      > > >
      > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
      > toward
      > > > none, with charity
      > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives
      > > us
      > > > to see the right,
      > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
      > to
      > > > bind up the nation's
      > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
      > > > battle and for his
      > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
      > achieve
      > > > and cherish a just
      > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
      > > > nations."
      > > >
      > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these
      > > days
      > > > have doubts about
      > > > the patriotism of that great American.
      > > >
      > > > Ram
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
      > > protection around
      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com
    • Gregory
      Rich, Check out the timeline of when the cartoons were first published, who went on a mission to foment ANGER months later by making an issue of them in the
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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        Rich,

        Check out the timeline of when the cartoons were first published, who
        went on a mission to foment ANGER months later by making an issue of
        them in the Arab world and in other places. It is then we even heard
        about the cartoons. You have posted your thoughts regarding the
        fringe element in the Arab world and now suggest the press should
        aide that behavior and advertise for it. There is a disocnnect in
        your thinking.

        Gregory

        --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard kelly
        <richwkelly@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thomas:
        >
        > I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long time.
        > Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD dissertation.
        > I havent noticed anyone else attaching footnotes and
        > bibliographies at the end of their messages. As far
        > as the press being a bunch of cowards, I agree with
        > that. Most of them were too scared to print the
        > Mohammed cartoons. "Out of respect for our readers"
        > yeah right. These cartoons were a giant news story
        > for weeks, and of course they should have been
        > included in coverage of the story. A few papers, to
        > their credit, showed some intestinal fortitude, as for
        > the Post, Times, etc. draw your own conclusions.
        >
        >
        > R.K.
        >
        > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Richard.. I hope you can be open-minded enough to
        > > consider other points of view besides Rush Limbaugh
        > > talking points, especially since Rush is on the
        > > White
        > > House payroll.
        > > You might read Pulitzer-prize winning journalist
        > > Haynes Johnson's take on the media today; "The Age
        > > Of
        > > Anxiety: McCarthyism To Terrorism, " in which he
        > > describes the current press as more cowardly and
        > > subservient to power than the press during the
        > > McCarthy era. In other words, the current mainstream
        > > press is doing more to protect this current
        > > president
        > > than in any time in history.
        > > Your points of view are welcome here but your
        > > debating
        > > style will not carry the day when you begin your
        > > blog
        > > by saying:
        > > "First, we all know that if a Democratic President
        > > had asked the NY Times not to run the story, about
        > > this financial database, the Times wouldnt have run
        > > it."
        > > I know no such thing and it strikes me as paranoid
        > > opinion which you failed to give us any respected
        > > sources who feel the same way.
        > > Don't forget that 80% of print and broadcast
        > > journalism companies are owned by 5 very rich
        > > families, who are enjoying huge windfalls from this
        > > administration.
        > >
        > > Tom
        > >
        > >
        > > --- richard kelly <richwkelly@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in time
        > > of
        > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
        > > World
        > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would it
        > > have
        > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
        > > U.S.
        > > > to
        > > > win the war? America used be united in a time of
        > > > war,
        > > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican is
        > > in
        > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
        > > > partisan.
        > > >
        > > > Richard Kelly
        > > >
        > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
        > > > > question the patriotism
        > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
        > > > > politically and
        > > > > ideologically.
        > > > >
        > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
        > > toward
        > > > > none, with charity
        > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives
        > > > us
        > > > > to see the right,
        > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
        > > to
        > > > > bind up the nation's
        > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
        > > > > battle and for his
        > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
        > > achieve
        > > > > and cherish a just
        > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
        > > > > nations."
        > > > >
        > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these
        > > > days
        > > > > have doubts about
        > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
        > > > >
        > > > > Ram
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________________________
        > > > Do You Yahoo!?
        > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
        > > > protection around
        > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
      • richard kelly
        In my opinion, the demonstrations were about intimidating the West. As you recall, a popular slogan was death to the cartoonists etc. Its beyond me how
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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          In my opinion, the demonstrations were about
          intimidating the West. As you recall, a popular
          slogan was "death to the cartoonists" etc. Its
          beyond me how giving in to intimidation is a good
          idea.

          R.K.

          --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

          > Rich,
          >
          > Check out the timeline of when the cartoons were
          > first published, who
          > went on a mission to foment ANGER months later by
          > making an issue of
          > them in the Arab world and in other places. It is
          > then we even heard
          > about the cartoons. You have posted your thoughts
          > regarding the
          > fringe element in the Arab world and now suggest the
          > press should
          > aide that behavior and advertise for it. There is a
          > disocnnect in
          > your thinking.
          >
          > Gregory
          >
          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
          > kelly
          > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thomas:
          > >
          > > I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long
          > time.
          > > Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD
          > dissertation.
          > > I havent noticed anyone else attaching footnotes
          > and
          > > bibliographies at the end of their messages. As
          > far
          > > as the press being a bunch of cowards, I agree
          > with
          > > that. Most of them were too scared to print the
          > > Mohammed cartoons. "Out of respect for our
          > readers"
          > > yeah right. These cartoons were a giant news story
          > > for weeks, and of course they should have been
          > > included in coverage of the story. A few papers,
          > to
          > > their credit, showed some intestinal fortitude, as
          > for
          > > the Post, Times, etc. draw your own conclusions.
          > >
          > >
          > > R.K.
          > >
          > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Richard.. I hope you can be open-minded enough
          > to
          > > > consider other points of view besides Rush
          > Limbaugh
          > > > talking points, especially since Rush is on the
          > > > White
          > > > House payroll.
          > > > You might read Pulitzer-prize winning
          > journalist
          > > > Haynes Johnson's take on the media today; "The
          > Age
          > > > Of
          > > > Anxiety: McCarthyism To Terrorism, " in which he
          > > > describes the current press as more cowardly and
          > > > subservient to power than the press during the
          > > > McCarthy era. In other words, the current
          > mainstream
          > > > press is doing more to protect this current
          > > > president
          > > > than in any time in history.
          > > > Your points of view are welcome here but your
          > > > debating
          > > > style will not carry the day when you begin your
          > > > blog
          > > > by saying:
          > > > "First, we all know that if a Democratic
          > President
          > > > had asked the NY Times not to run the story,
          > about
          > > > this financial database, the Times wouldnt have
          > run
          > > > it."
          > > > I know no such thing and it strikes me as
          > paranoid
          > > > opinion which you failed to give us any
          > respected
          > > > sources who feel the same way.
          > > > Don't forget that 80% of print and broadcast
          > > > journalism companies are owned by 5 very rich
          > > > families, who are enjoying huge windfalls from
          > this
          > > > administration.
          > > >
          > > > Tom
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- richard kelly <richwkelly@...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in
          > time
          > > > of
          > > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
          > > > World
          > > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would
          > it
          > > > have
          > > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
          > > > U.S.
          > > > > to
          > > > > win the war? America used be united in a time
          > of
          > > > > war,
          > > > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican
          > is
          > > > in
          > > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
          > > > > partisan.
          > > > >
          > > > > Richard Kelly
          > > > >
          > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
          > > > > > question the patriotism
          > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with
          > you
          > > > > > politically and
          > > > > > ideologically.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
          > > > toward
          > > > > > none, with charity
          > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
          > gives
          > > > > us
          > > > > > to see the right,
          > > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are
          > in,
          > > > to
          > > > > > bind up the nation's
          > > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne
          > the
          > > > > > battle and for his
          > > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
          > > > achieve
          > > > > > and cherish a just
          > > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with
          > all
          > > > > > nations."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in
          > these
          > > > > days
          > > > > > have doubts about
          > > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Ram
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > __________________________________________________
          > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          > > > > protection around
          > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          > protection around
          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Gregory
          Rich, The fact is the cartoon(s) had been published long before someone used it as a rallying cry in the Mideast. It then grew into an international event.
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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            Rich,

            The fact is the cartoon(s) had been published long before someone
            used it as a rallying cry in the Mideast. It then grew into an
            international event. By covering the story and reportig the news of
            the riots etc. you and I knew the facts. By continuig to print the
            cartoons would have only inflamed the situation. You want a
            responsible press and yet cry foul when they are senstitive to the
            needs that exist.

            Gregory

            --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard kelly
            <richwkelly@...> wrote:
            >
            > In my opinion, the demonstrations were about
            > intimidating the West. As you recall, a popular
            > slogan was "death to the cartoonists" etc. Its
            > beyond me how giving in to intimidation is a good
            > idea.
            >
            > R.K.
            >
            > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Rich,
            > >
            > > Check out the timeline of when the cartoons were
            > > first published, who
            > > went on a mission to foment ANGER months later by
            > > making an issue of
            > > them in the Arab world and in other places. It is
            > > then we even heard
            > > about the cartoons. You have posted your thoughts
            > > regarding the
            > > fringe element in the Arab world and now suggest the
            > > press should
            > > aide that behavior and advertise for it. There is a
            > > disocnnect in
            > > your thinking.
            > >
            > > Gregory
            > >
            > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
            > > kelly
            > > <richwkelly@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thomas:
            > > >
            > > > I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long
            > > time.
            > > > Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD
            > > dissertation.
            > > > I havent noticed anyone else attaching footnotes
            > > and
            > > > bibliographies at the end of their messages. As
            > > far
            > > > as the press being a bunch of cowards, I agree
            > > with
            > > > that. Most of them were too scared to print the
            > > > Mohammed cartoons. "Out of respect for our
            > > readers"
            > > > yeah right. These cartoons were a giant news story
            > > > for weeks, and of course they should have been
            > > > included in coverage of the story. A few papers,
            > > to
            > > > their credit, showed some intestinal fortitude, as
            > > for
            > > > the Post, Times, etc. draw your own conclusions.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > R.K.
            > > >
            > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Richard.. I hope you can be open-minded enough
            > > to
            > > > > consider other points of view besides Rush
            > > Limbaugh
            > > > > talking points, especially since Rush is on the
            > > > > White
            > > > > House payroll.
            > > > > You might read Pulitzer-prize winning
            > > journalist
            > > > > Haynes Johnson's take on the media today; "The
            > > Age
            > > > > Of
            > > > > Anxiety: McCarthyism To Terrorism, " in which he
            > > > > describes the current press as more cowardly and
            > > > > subservient to power than the press during the
            > > > > McCarthy era. In other words, the current
            > > mainstream
            > > > > press is doing more to protect this current
            > > > > president
            > > > > than in any time in history.
            > > > > Your points of view are welcome here but your
            > > > > debating
            > > > > style will not carry the day when you begin your
            > > > > blog
            > > > > by saying:
            > > > > "First, we all know that if a Democratic
            > > President
            > > > > had asked the NY Times not to run the story,
            > > about
            > > > > this financial database, the Times wouldnt have
            > > run
            > > > > it."
            > > > > I know no such thing and it strikes me as
            > > paranoid
            > > > > opinion which you failed to give us any
            > > respected
            > > > > sources who feel the same way.
            > > > > Don't forget that 80% of print and broadcast
            > > > > journalism companies are owned by 5 very rich
            > > > > families, who are enjoying huge windfalls from
            > > this
            > > > > administration.
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- richard kelly <richwkelly@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in
            > > time
            > > > > of
            > > > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
            > > > > World
            > > > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would
            > > it
            > > > > have
            > > > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
            > > > > U.S.
            > > > > > to
            > > > > > win the war? America used be united in a time
            > > of
            > > > > > war,
            > > > > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican
            > > is
            > > > > in
            > > > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
            > > > > > partisan.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Richard Kelly
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
            > > > > > > question the patriotism
            > > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with
            > > you
            > > > > > > politically and
            > > > > > > ideologically.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
            > > > > toward
            > > > > > > none, with charity
            > > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
            > > gives
            > > > > > us
            > > > > > > to see the right,
            > > > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are
            > > in,
            > > > > to
            > > > > > > bind up the nation's
            > > > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne
            > > the
            > > > > > > battle and for his
            > > > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
            > > > > achieve
            > > > > > > and cherish a just
            > > > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with
            > > all
            > > > > > > nations."
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in
            > > these
            > > > > > days
            > > > > > > have doubts about
            > > > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Ram
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > __________________________________________________
            > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
            > > > > > protection around
            > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________________________
            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
            > > protection around
            > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • richard kelly
            Greg: There s no way to tell the whole story without showing what caused the uproar. What happened to the people s right to know? Only conclusion you can
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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              Greg:

              There's no way to tell the whole story without
              showing what caused the uproar. What happened to
              the "people's right to know?" Only conclusion you
              can draw from some newspapers' refusual to print the
              cartoons is fear, they certainly never cared about
              being offensive before.

              Shalmon Rushdie was on the Bill Moyers show last
              Friday night. Great interview. Rushdie calls it
              "tyranny" and "most of the victims are fellows
              Moslems." Moyers mentioned that some magazine had
              printed all the Mohammed cartoons, and some bookstores
              refused to sell them. Rushdie said very politely,
              "well, frankly, they're cowards."

              Richard Kelly
              --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

              > Rich,
              >
              > The fact is the cartoon(s) had been published long
              > before someone
              > used it as a rallying cry in the Mideast. It then
              > grew into an
              > international event. By covering the story and
              > reportig the news of
              > the riots etc. you and I knew the facts. By
              > continuig to print the
              > cartoons would have only inflamed the situation. You
              > want a
              > responsible press and yet cry foul when they are
              > senstitive to the
              > needs that exist.
              >
              > Gregory
              >
              > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
              > kelly
              > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > In my opinion, the demonstrations were about
              > > intimidating the West. As you recall, a popular
              > > slogan was "death to the cartoonists" etc. Its
              > > beyond me how giving in to intimidation is a good
              > > idea.
              > >
              > > R.K.
              > >
              > > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > Rich,
              > > >
              > > > Check out the timeline of when the cartoons were
              > > > first published, who
              > > > went on a mission to foment ANGER months later
              > by
              > > > making an issue of
              > > > them in the Arab world and in other places. It
              > is
              > > > then we even heard
              > > > about the cartoons. You have posted your
              > thoughts
              > > > regarding the
              > > > fringe element in the Arab world and now suggest
              > the
              > > > press should
              > > > aide that behavior and advertise for it. There
              > is a
              > > > disocnnect in
              > > > your thinking.
              > > >
              > > > Gregory
              > > >
              > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
              > > > kelly
              > > > <richwkelly@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Thomas:
              > > > >
              > > > > I havent listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long
              > > > time.
              > > > > Anyway, a discussion group isnt a PhD
              > > > dissertation.
              > > > > I havent noticed anyone else attaching
              > footnotes
              > > > and
              > > > > bibliographies at the end of their messages.
              > As
              > > > far
              > > > > as the press being a bunch of cowards, I agree
              > > > with
              > > > > that. Most of them were too scared to print
              > the
              > > > > Mohammed cartoons. "Out of respect for our
              > > > readers"
              > > > > yeah right. These cartoons were a giant news
              > story
              > > > > for weeks, and of course they should have been
              > > > > included in coverage of the story. A few
              > papers,
              > > > to
              > > > > their credit, showed some intestinal
              > fortitude, as
              > > > for
              > > > > the Post, Times, etc. draw your own
              > conclusions.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > R.K.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > Richard.. I hope you can be open-minded
              > enough
              > > > to
              > > > > > consider other points of view besides Rush
              > > > Limbaugh
              > > > > > talking points, especially since Rush is on
              > the
              > > > > > White
              > > > > > House payroll.
              > > > > > You might read Pulitzer-prize winning
              > > > journalist
              > > > > > Haynes Johnson's take on the media today;
              > "The
              > > > Age
              > > > > > Of
              > > > > > Anxiety: McCarthyism To Terrorism, " in
              > which he
              > > > > > describes the current press as more cowardly
              > and
              > > > > > subservient to power than the press during
              > the
              > > > > > McCarthy era. In other words, the current
              > > > mainstream
              > > > > > press is doing more to protect this current
              > > > > > president
              > > > > > than in any time in history.
              > > > > > Your points of view are welcome here but
              > your
              > > > > > debating
              > > > > > style will not carry the day when you begin
              > your
              > > > > > blog
              > > > > > by saying:
              > > > > > "First, we all know that if a Democratic
              > > > President
              > > > > > had asked the NY Times not to run the story,
              > > > about
              > > > > > this financial database, the Times wouldnt
              > have
              > > > run
              > > > > > it."
              > > > > > I know no such thing and it strikes me as
              > > > paranoid
              > > > > > opinion which you failed to give us any
              > > > respected
              > > > > > sources who feel the same way.
              > > > > > Don't forget that 80% of print and broadcast
              > > > > > journalism companies are owned by 5 very
              > rich
              > > > > > families, who are enjoying huge windfalls
              > from
              > > > this
              > > > > > administration.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Tom
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- richard kelly <richwkelly@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents
              > in
              > > > time
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved
              > during
              > > > > > World
              > > > > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today,
              > would
              > > > it
              > > > > > have
              > > > > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and
              > the
              > > > > > U.S.
              > > > > > > to
              > > > > > > win the war? America used be united in a
              > time
              > > > of
              > > > > > > war,
              > > > > > > like during the 1940's. But since a
              > Republican
              > > > is
              > > > > > in
              > > > > > > office, war or not, the press is going to
              > be
              > > > > > > partisan.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Richard Kelly
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I still think it's childish and
              > malicious to
              > > > > > > > question the patriotism
              > > > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree
              > with
              > > > you
              > > > > > > > politically and
              > > > > > > > ideologically.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With
              > malice
              > > > > > toward
              > > > > > > > none, with charity
              > > > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as
              > God
              > > > gives
              > > > > > > us
              >
              === message truncated ===


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            • richard kelly
              Ram: You know, there are so many differences between Vietnam and Iraq. The U.S. never occupied Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh was never deposed or put on trial, the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                Ram:

                You know, there are so many differences between
                Vietnam and Iraq.

                The U.S. never occupied Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh was never
                deposed or put on trial, the Vietnam War lasted over a
                decade, in Iraq you have Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds,
                in Vietnam you had Vietnamese. In Vietnam, the U.S.
                faced a much more formidible opponent, a much tougher
                foe. Vietnam happened during the Cold War, North
                Vietnam received significant support from China and
                the Soviet Union. Of course the casualties in Vietnam
                were much, much greater. These are pretty significant
                differences. Oh yes, also in Vietnam you had the
                draft, in Iraq its a volunteer army.

                I think the press became critical of the war in
                Vietnam around 1968; we had a big buildup of troops in
                1965. Its not the same thing. The "Vietnam syndrome"
                hadn't happened yet.

                Richard Kelly



                --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

                > The Iraq War is another Vietnam, and the reality is
                > non-partisan. Keep
                > in mind that the media didn't treat LBJ a lot nicer
                > than they do to
                > GWB. So your point that "the press is partisan
                > because a Republican in
                > office" does not make much sense to me. You don't
                > blame the media
                > because a war is unjust or the truth is bitter.
                >
                > Also, the press is controlled by big corporations in
                > these days. The
                > so-called liberal mainstream media outlets are
                > therefore quite
                > unlikely to be liberal.
                >
                > Ram
                >
                >
                > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                > kelly <richwkelly@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in time
                > of
                > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
                > World
                > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would it
                > have
                > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
                > U.S. to
                > > win the war? America used be united in a time of
                > war,
                > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican is
                > in
                > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
                > partisan.
                > >
                > > Richard Kelly
                > >
                > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                > > > question the patriotism
                > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
                > > > politically and
                > > > ideologically.
                > > >
                > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                > toward
                > > > none, with charity
                > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives
                > us
                > > > to see the right,
                > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
                > to
                > > > bind up the nation's
                > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
                > > > battle and for his
                > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
                > achieve
                > > > and cherish a just
                > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
                > > > nations."
                > > >
                > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these
                > days
                > > > have doubts about
                > > > the patriotism of that great American.
                > > >
                > > > Ram
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                > protection around
                > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • richard kelly
                Perhaps you could name someone who questions Lincoln s patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at the conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice toward
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                  Perhaps you could name someone who questions Lincoln's
                  patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at the
                  conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice toward
                  none is referring to the defeated South, binding up
                  the nation's wounds can be taken very literally.

                  Its a very different situation than today. During the
                  Civil War there was plenty of partisanship, Democrats
                  as well as Republicans in the North making insulting
                  comments about the President, I would think if they
                  had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's popularity would
                  have been quite low, especially in the first years of
                  the war.

                  Really, where do you get this idea that Republicans
                  are "questioning Lincoln's patriotism?" That's bunk.

                  R. Kelly




                  --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:

                  > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                  > question the patriotism
                  > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
                  > politically and
                  > ideologically.
                  >
                  > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice toward
                  > none, with charity
                  > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us
                  > to see the right,
                  > let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to
                  > bind up the nation's
                  > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
                  > battle and for his
                  > widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve
                  > and cherish a just
                  > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
                  > nations."
                  >
                  > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these days
                  > have doubts about
                  > the patriotism of that great American.
                  >
                  > Ram
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Gregory
                  Rich, Between Ram, Thomas, yourself, and others here I think it safe to say we have all read many books on history (and at least several on Middle Eastern
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                    Rich,

                    Between Ram, Thomas, yourself, and others here I think it safe to say
                    we have all read many books on history (and at least several on
                    Middle Eastern history) so here is my question for you. Why does it
                    seem to me that no one in the Bush White House ever read any? How
                    can they be so surprised about the way things are going? You seem to
                    understand the Bush White House more than us so could you clue me in
                    on how they got the rosy scenario so dealdy wrong. I am just part of
                    that old lets be based in facts crowd from the left so I clearly do
                    not understand the world of neo-cons. But I would like to know how
                    all the history of the Middle East never was a part of the war
                    planning. Did Bush think God really placed him in the WH to bring
                    those 'heathens' in the Middle East to Christ, or is it more likely
                    that Bush was suffering from late night parties in college and never
                    made it to his history classes? Kinda curious on your thoughts about
                    this issue. Because someone has to be responsible for this mess, and
                    wondering where you place the blame.

                    I know I asked several questiosn so feel free to take your time in
                    responding.

                    Gregory

                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard kelly
                    <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ram:
                    >
                    > You know, there are so many differences between
                    > Vietnam and Iraq.
                    >
                    > The U.S. never occupied Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh was never
                    > deposed or put on trial, the Vietnam War lasted over a
                    > decade, in Iraq you have Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds,
                    > in Vietnam you had Vietnamese. In Vietnam, the U.S.
                    > faced a much more formidible opponent, a much tougher
                    > foe. Vietnam happened during the Cold War, North
                    > Vietnam received significant support from China and
                    > the Soviet Union. Of course the casualties in Vietnam
                    > were much, much greater. These are pretty significant
                    > differences. Oh yes, also in Vietnam you had the
                    > draft, in Iraq its a volunteer army.
                    >
                    > I think the press became critical of the war in
                    > Vietnam around 1968; we had a big buildup of troops in
                    > 1965. Its not the same thing. The "Vietnam syndrome"
                    > hadn't happened yet.
                    >
                    > Richard Kelly
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The Iraq War is another Vietnam, and the reality is
                    > > non-partisan. Keep
                    > > in mind that the media didn't treat LBJ a lot nicer
                    > > than they do to
                    > > GWB. So your point that "the press is partisan
                    > > because a Republican in
                    > > office" does not make much sense to me. You don't
                    > > blame the media
                    > > because a war is unjust or the truth is bitter.
                    > >
                    > > Also, the press is controlled by big corporations in
                    > > these days. The
                    > > so-called liberal mainstream media outlets are
                    > > therefore quite
                    > > unlikely to be liberal.
                    > >
                    > > Ram
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                    > > kelly <richwkelly@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in time
                    > > of
                    > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
                    > > World
                    > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would it
                    > > have
                    > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
                    > > U.S. to
                    > > > win the war? America used be united in a time of
                    > > war,
                    > > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican is
                    > > in
                    > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
                    > > partisan.
                    > > >
                    > > > Richard Kelly
                    > > >
                    > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                    > > > > question the patriotism
                    > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
                    > > > > politically and
                    > > > > ideologically.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                    > > toward
                    > > > > none, with charity
                    > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives
                    > > us
                    > > > > to see the right,
                    > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
                    > > to
                    > > > > bind up the nation's
                    > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
                    > > > > battle and for his
                    > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
                    > > achieve
                    > > > > and cherish a just
                    > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
                    > > > > nations."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these
                    > > days
                    > > > > have doubts about
                    > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ram
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > __________________________________________________
                    > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                    > > protection around
                    > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • Gregory
                    Rich, Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln. Consider if you will... Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring that the nation did not dissolve
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                      Rich,

                      Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln. Consider if you
                      will...

                      Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring that the nation did not
                      dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a war on terrorism,
                      committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been overlooked so America
                      could invade Iraq.

                      But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells us much about how Bush
                      could better handle his.

                      Lincoln was most able to take competing viewpoints and bridge the
                      differences. His own party had very deep divisions over the Radicals
                      who wanted a very strident effort to end slavery at once, and
                      moderate elements that wished to find a more select and cautious
                      series of steps to achieve mostly the same result. At the same time
                      Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were in the Democratic camp
                      but were not totally opposed to his ideas.

                      Today the nation is highly divided over the war, how the evidence was
                      gathered and presented to take our country into battle, and how the
                      continued rationale for war is taking us nowhere.

                      Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief Executive he needed to
                      mire himself firmly in the daily operations of the war. He digested
                      information and became self-schooled in military matters even though
                      he (like Bush) had limited military experience. It has been reported
                      in many books how Lincoln went to the War Department and would
                      stretch back in a chair and read memos from his generals and military
                      personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire to understand the war
                      strategy so as to be a better war President.

                      There is little evidence that Bush prides himself at being highly
                      adept at any topic, and no one has ever suggested he reads volumes of
                      information so as to convince the public he has the mental resources
                      to make valid decisions.

                      Lincoln understood that when the campaign to win the war was not
                      succeeding it was time to change strategies and commanders. Many a
                      general and military commander was sent packing after not meeting the
                      needs of a winning northern campaign to bring the Confederacy back
                      into the Union.

                      There has been an unwillingness to admit mistakes with the Iraq war
                      even though failures have presented themselves at every turn. From
                      too few military personnel sent to control Iraq after the downfall of
                      the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get international players
                      involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission accomplished' all shows a
                      lack of leadership and insight.

                      Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of words was required to
                      convince a war weary public that the effort needed to continue was
                      vital. He well understood convictions without oratory in time of
                      national trauma, is a leader without a nation of followers.

                      Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a failed war strategy is
                      at the heart of all his current woes. Without addressing how the war
                      failed will mean he cannot reclaim his position in the polls, and
                      more importantly be capable of resolving the other matters that face
                      his Administration.

                      I think Bush would be better off if he took a volume or two about
                      Lincoln to bed, read them, and then talked to the country in a
                      national address in a week.

                      Gregory

                      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard kelly
                      <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Perhaps you could name someone who questions Lincoln's
                      > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at the
                      > conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice toward
                      > none is referring to the defeated South, binding up
                      > the nation's wounds can be taken very literally.
                      >
                      > Its a very different situation than today. During the
                      > Civil War there was plenty of partisanship, Democrats
                      > as well as Republicans in the North making insulting
                      > comments about the President, I would think if they
                      > had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's popularity would
                      > have been quite low, especially in the first years of
                      > the war.
                      >
                      > Really, where do you get this idea that Republicans
                      > are "questioning Lincoln's patriotism?" That's bunk.
                      >
                      > R. Kelly
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                      > > question the patriotism
                      > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
                      > > politically and
                      > > ideologically.
                      > >
                      > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice toward
                      > > none, with charity
                      > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us
                      > > to see the right,
                      > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to
                      > > bind up the nation's
                      > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
                      > > battle and for his
                      > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve
                      > > and cherish a just
                      > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
                      > > nations."
                      > >
                      > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these days
                      > > have doubts about
                      > > the patriotism of that great American.
                      > >
                      > > Ram
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • richard kelly
                      Gregory; All very amusing. Hey, according to a right-wing blog, not only the White House but also the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission urged the NY Times not
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Gregory;

                        All very amusing.

                        Hey, according to a right-wing blog, not only the
                        White House but also the co-chairs of the 9/11
                        Commission urged the NY Times not to run the story
                        about a financial database.

                        OF course, what do they care?

                        R.K.



                        --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

                        > Rich,
                        >
                        > Between Ram, Thomas, yourself, and others here I
                        > think it safe to say
                        > we have all read many books on history (and at least
                        > several on
                        > Middle Eastern history) so here is my question for
                        > you. Why does it
                        > seem to me that no one in the Bush White House ever
                        > read any? How
                        > can they be so surprised about the way things are
                        > going? You seem to
                        > understand the Bush White House more than us so
                        > could you clue me in
                        > on how they got the rosy scenario so dealdy wrong. I
                        > am just part of
                        > that old lets be based in facts crowd from the left
                        > so I clearly do
                        > not understand the world of neo-cons. But I would
                        > like to know how
                        > all the history of the Middle East never was a part
                        > of the war
                        > planning. Did Bush think God really placed him in
                        > the WH to bring
                        > those 'heathens' in the Middle East to Christ, or
                        > is it more likely
                        > that Bush was suffering from late night parties in
                        > college and never
                        > made it to his history classes? Kinda curious on
                        > your thoughts about
                        > this issue. Because someone has to be responsible
                        > for this mess, and
                        > wondering where you place the blame.
                        >
                        > I know I asked several questiosn so feel free to
                        > take your time in
                        > responding.
                        >
                        > Gregory
                        >
                        > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                        > kelly
                        > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Ram:
                        > >
                        > > You know, there are so many differences between
                        > > Vietnam and Iraq.
                        > >
                        > > The U.S. never occupied Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh was
                        > never
                        > > deposed or put on trial, the Vietnam War lasted
                        > over a
                        > > decade, in Iraq you have Shiites, Sunnis, and
                        > Kurds,
                        > > in Vietnam you had Vietnamese. In Vietnam, the
                        > U.S.
                        > > faced a much more formidible opponent, a much
                        > tougher
                        > > foe. Vietnam happened during the Cold War, North
                        > > Vietnam received significant support from China
                        > and
                        > > the Soviet Union. Of course the casualties in
                        > Vietnam
                        > > were much, much greater. These are pretty
                        > significant
                        > > differences. Oh yes, also in Vietnam you had the
                        > > draft, in Iraq its a volunteer army.
                        > >
                        > > I think the press became critical of the war in
                        > > Vietnam around 1968; we had a big buildup of
                        > troops in
                        > > 1965. Its not the same thing. The "Vietnam
                        > syndrome"
                        > > hadn't happened yet.
                        > >
                        > > Richard Kelly
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > The Iraq War is another Vietnam, and the reality
                        > is
                        > > > non-partisan. Keep
                        > > > in mind that the media didn't treat LBJ a lot
                        > nicer
                        > > > than they do to
                        > > > GWB. So your point that "the press is partisan
                        > > > because a Republican in
                        > > > office" does not make much sense to me. You
                        > don't
                        > > > blame the media
                        > > > because a war is unjust or the truth is bitter.
                        > > >
                        > > > Also, the press is controlled by big
                        > corporations in
                        > > > these days. The
                        > > > so-called liberal mainstream media outlets are
                        > > > therefore quite
                        > > > unlikely to be liberal.
                        > > >
                        > > > Ram
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                        > > > kelly <richwkelly@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in
                        > time
                        > > > of
                        > > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved during
                        > > > World
                        > > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would
                        > it
                        > > > have
                        > > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and the
                        > > > U.S. to
                        > > > > win the war? America used be united in a time
                        > of
                        > > > war,
                        > > > > like during the 1940's. But since a Republican
                        > is
                        > > > in
                        > > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
                        > > > partisan.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Richard Kelly
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                        > > > > > question the patriotism
                        > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with
                        > you
                        > > > > > politically and
                        > > > > > ideologically.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                        > > > toward
                        > > > > > none, with charity
                        > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
                        > gives
                        > > > us
                        > > > > > to see the right,
                        > > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are
                        > in,
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > bind up the nation's
                        > > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne
                        > the
                        > > > > > battle and for his
                        > > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
                        > > > achieve
                        > > > > > and cherish a just
                        > > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with
                        > all
                        > > > > > nations."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in
                        > these
                        > > > days
                        > > > > > have doubts about
                        > > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Ram
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                        > > > protection around
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                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________________________
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                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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                      • THOMAS JOHNSON
                        Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln s genius was due, in no small part, to his empathy.. he could understand competing viewpoints and translate them into policy,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                          Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due, in no
                          small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                          competing viewpoints and translate them into policy,
                          and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he was
                          not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                          re-election.
                          Richard, how would you characterize Bush's presidency?
                          Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top shelf?
                          Just curious...

                          Tom



                          --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

                          > Rich,
                          >
                          > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln.
                          > Consider if you
                          > will...
                          >
                          > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring that
                          > the nation did not
                          > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a war on
                          > terrorism,
                          > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                          > overlooked so America
                          > could invade Iraq.
                          >
                          > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells us
                          > much about how Bush
                          > could better handle his.
                          >
                          > Lincoln was most able to take competing viewpoints
                          > and bridge the
                          > differences. His own party had very deep divisions
                          > over the Radicals
                          > who wanted a very strident effort to end slavery at
                          > once, and
                          > moderate elements that wished to find a more select
                          > and cautious
                          > series of steps to achieve mostly the same result.
                          > At the same time
                          > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were in the
                          > Democratic camp
                          > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                          >
                          > Today the nation is highly divided over the war, how
                          > the evidence was
                          > gathered and presented to take our country into
                          > battle, and how the
                          > continued rationale for war is taking us nowhere.
                          >
                          > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                          > Executive he needed to
                          > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of the
                          > war. He digested
                          > information and became self-schooled in military
                          > matters even though
                          > he (like Bush) had limited military experience. It
                          > has been reported
                          > in many books how Lincoln went to the War Department
                          > and would
                          > stretch back in a chair and read memos from his
                          > generals and military
                          > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire to
                          > understand the war
                          > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                          >
                          > There is little evidence that Bush prides himself at
                          > being highly
                          > adept at any topic, and no one has ever suggested he
                          > reads volumes of
                          > information so as to convince the public he has the
                          > mental resources
                          > to make valid decisions.
                          >
                          > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to win the
                          > war was not
                          > succeeding it was time to change strategies and
                          > commanders. Many a
                          > general and military commander was sent packing
                          > after not meeting the
                          > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring the
                          > Confederacy back
                          > into the Union.
                          >
                          > There has been an unwillingness to admit mistakes
                          > with the Iraq war
                          > even though failures have presented themselves at
                          > every turn. From
                          > too few military personnel sent to control Iraq
                          > after the downfall of
                          > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                          > international players
                          > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                          > accomplished' all shows a
                          > lack of leadership and insight.
                          >
                          > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of words was
                          > required to
                          > convince a war weary public that the effort needed
                          > to continue was
                          > vital. He well understood convictions without
                          > oratory in time of
                          > national trauma, is a leader without a nation of
                          > followers.
                          >
                          > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                          > failed war strategy is
                          > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                          > addressing how the war
                          > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his position in
                          > the polls, and
                          > more importantly be capable of resolving the other
                          > matters that face
                          > his Administration.
                          >
                          > I think Bush would be better off if he took a volume
                          > or two about
                          > Lincoln to bed, read them, and then talked to the
                          > country in a
                          > national address in a week.
                          >
                          > Gregory
                          >
                          > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                          > kelly
                          > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps you could name someone who questions
                          > Lincoln's
                          > > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at the
                          > > conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice toward
                          > > none is referring to the defeated South, binding
                          > up
                          > > the nation's wounds can be taken very literally.
                          > >
                          > > Its a very different situation than today. During
                          > the
                          > > Civil War there was plenty of partisanship,
                          > Democrats
                          > > as well as Republicans in the North making
                          > insulting
                          > > comments about the President, I would think if
                          > they
                          > > had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's popularity
                          > would
                          > > have been quite low, especially in the first years
                          > of
                          > > the war.
                          > >
                          > > Really, where do you get this idea that
                          > Republicans
                          > > are "questioning Lincoln's patriotism?" That's
                          > bunk.
                          > >
                          > > R. Kelly
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                          > > > question the patriotism
                          > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with you
                          > > > politically and
                          > > > ideologically.
                          > > >
                          > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                          > toward
                          > > > none, with charity
                          > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God gives
                          > us
                          > > > to see the right,
                          > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
                          > to
                          > > > bind up the nation's
                          > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the
                          > > > battle and for his
                          > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
                          > achieve
                          > > > and cherish a just
                          > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with all
                          > > > nations."
                          > > >
                          > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in these
                          > days
                          > > > have doubts about
                          > > > the patriotism of that great American.
                          > > >
                          > > > Ram
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • THOMAS JOHNSON
                          Richard.. Are you aware of the fact that the 9/11 commission gave the Bush administration an F in handling the implementation of it s recommendation? Tom ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
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                            Richard..
                            Are you aware of the fact that the 9/11 commission
                            gave the Bush administration an "F" in handling the
                            implementation of it's recommendation?

                            Tom



                            --- richard kelly <richwkelly@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Gregory;
                            >
                            > All very amusing.
                            >
                            > Hey, according to a right-wing blog, not only the
                            > White House but also the co-chairs of the 9/11
                            > Commission urged the NY Times not to run the story
                            > about a financial database.
                            >
                            > OF course, what do they care?
                            >
                            > R.K.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Rich,
                            > >
                            > > Between Ram, Thomas, yourself, and others here I
                            > > think it safe to say
                            > > we have all read many books on history (and at
                            > least
                            > > several on
                            > > Middle Eastern history) so here is my question for
                            > > you. Why does it
                            > > seem to me that no one in the Bush White House
                            > ever
                            > > read any? How
                            > > can they be so surprised about the way things are
                            > > going? You seem to
                            > > understand the Bush White House more than us so
                            > > could you clue me in
                            > > on how they got the rosy scenario so dealdy wrong.
                            > I
                            > > am just part of
                            > > that old lets be based in facts crowd from the
                            > left
                            > > so I clearly do
                            > > not understand the world of neo-cons. But I would
                            > > like to know how
                            > > all the history of the Middle East never was a
                            > part
                            > > of the war
                            > > planning. Did Bush think God really placed him in
                            > > the WH to bring
                            > > those 'heathens' in the Middle East to Christ, or
                            > > is it more likely
                            > > that Bush was suffering from late night parties in
                            > > college and never
                            > > made it to his history classes? Kinda curious on
                            > > your thoughts about
                            > > this issue. Because someone has to be responsible
                            > > for this mess, and
                            > > wondering where you place the blame.
                            > >
                            > > I know I asked several questiosn so feel free to
                            > > take your time in
                            > > responding.
                            > >
                            > > Gregory
                            > >
                            > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                            > > kelly
                            > > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Ram:
                            > > >
                            > > > You know, there are so many differences between
                            > > > Vietnam and Iraq.
                            > > >
                            > > > The U.S. never occupied Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh was
                            > > never
                            > > > deposed or put on trial, the Vietnam War lasted
                            > > over a
                            > > > decade, in Iraq you have Shiites, Sunnis, and
                            > > Kurds,
                            > > > in Vietnam you had Vietnamese. In Vietnam, the
                            > > U.S.
                            > > > faced a much more formidible opponent, a much
                            > > tougher
                            > > > foe. Vietnam happened during the Cold War, North
                            > > > Vietnam received significant support from China
                            > > and
                            > > > the Soviet Union. Of course the casualties in
                            > > Vietnam
                            > > > were much, much greater. These are pretty
                            > > significant
                            > > > differences. Oh yes, also in Vietnam you had the
                            > > > draft, in Iraq its a volunteer army.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think the press became critical of the war in
                            > > > Vietnam around 1968; we had a big buildup of
                            > > troops in
                            > > > 1965. Its not the same thing. The "Vietnam
                            > > syndrome"
                            > > > hadn't happened yet.
                            > > >
                            > > > Richard Kelly
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > The Iraq War is another Vietnam, and the
                            > reality
                            > > is
                            > > > > non-partisan. Keep
                            > > > > in mind that the media didn't treat LBJ a lot
                            > > nicer
                            > > > > than they do to
                            > > > > GWB. So your point that "the press is partisan
                            > > > > because a Republican in
                            > > > > office" does not make much sense to me. You
                            > > don't
                            > > > > blame the media
                            > > > > because a war is unjust or the truth is
                            > bitter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Also, the press is controlled by big
                            > > corporations in
                            > > > > these days. The
                            > > > > so-called liberal mainstream media outlets are
                            > > > > therefore quite
                            > > > > unlikely to be liberal.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ram
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
                            > richard
                            > > > > kelly <richwkelly@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > OK Ram, since we're discussing Presidents in
                            > > time
                            > > > > of
                            > > > > > war, tell me this. If the press behaved
                            > during
                            > > > > World
                            > > > > > War 2 the way they are behaving today, would
                            > > it
                            > > > > have
                            > > > > > made it more or less difficult for FDR and
                            > the
                            > > > > U.S. to
                            > > > > > win the war? America used be united in a
                            > time
                            > > of
                            > > > > war,
                            > > > > > like during the 1940's. But since a
                            > Republican
                            > > is
                            > > > > in
                            > > > > > office, war or not, the press is going to be
                            > > > > partisan.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Richard Kelly
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious
                            > to
                            > > > > > > question the patriotism
                            > > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree
                            > with
                            > > you
                            > > > > > > politically and
                            > > > > > > ideologically.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With
                            > malice
                            > > > > toward
                            > > > > > > none, with charity
                            > > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
                            > > gives
                            > > > > us
                            > > > > > > to see the right,
                            > > > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are
                            > > in,
                            > > > > to
                            > > > > > > bind up the nation's
                            > > > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have
                            > borne
                            > > the
                            > > > > > > battle and for his
                            > > > > > > widow and his orphan, to do all which may
                            > > > > achieve
                            > > > > > > and cherish a just
                            > > > > > > and lasting peace among ourselves and with
                            > > all
                            > > > > > > nations."
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > There's no doubt that the Republicans in
                            > > these
                            > > > > days
                            > > > > > > have doubts about
                            > > > > > > the patriotism of that great American.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Ram
                            >
                            === message truncated ===
                          • richard kelly
                            I d rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere in the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn t on the ballot in 2000 or
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'd rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere in
                              the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham
                              Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 2000 or
                              2004, was he?

                              Richard Kelly

                              --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:

                              > Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due, in
                              > no
                              > small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                              > competing viewpoints and translate them into policy,
                              > and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he was
                              > not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                              > re-election.
                              > Richard, how would you characterize Bush's
                              > presidency?
                              > Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top shelf?
                              > Just curious...
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Rich,
                              > >
                              > > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln.
                              > > Consider if you
                              > > will...
                              > >
                              > > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring that
                              > > the nation did not
                              > > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a war on
                              > > terrorism,
                              > > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                              > > overlooked so America
                              > > could invade Iraq.
                              > >
                              > > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells us
                              > > much about how Bush
                              > > could better handle his.
                              > >
                              > > Lincoln was most able to take competing viewpoints
                              > > and bridge the
                              > > differences. His own party had very deep divisions
                              > > over the Radicals
                              > > who wanted a very strident effort to end slavery
                              > at
                              > > once, and
                              > > moderate elements that wished to find a more
                              > select
                              > > and cautious
                              > > series of steps to achieve mostly the same result.
                              > > At the same time
                              > > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were in
                              > the
                              > > Democratic camp
                              > > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                              > >
                              > > Today the nation is highly divided over the war,
                              > how
                              > > the evidence was
                              > > gathered and presented to take our country into
                              > > battle, and how the
                              > > continued rationale for war is taking us nowhere.
                              > >
                              > > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                              > > Executive he needed to
                              > > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of the
                              > > war. He digested
                              > > information and became self-schooled in military
                              > > matters even though
                              > > he (like Bush) had limited military experience. It
                              > > has been reported
                              > > in many books how Lincoln went to the War
                              > Department
                              > > and would
                              > > stretch back in a chair and read memos from his
                              > > generals and military
                              > > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire to
                              > > understand the war
                              > > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                              > >
                              > > There is little evidence that Bush prides himself
                              > at
                              > > being highly
                              > > adept at any topic, and no one has ever suggested
                              > he
                              > > reads volumes of
                              > > information so as to convince the public he has
                              > the
                              > > mental resources
                              > > to make valid decisions.
                              > >
                              > > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to win
                              > the
                              > > war was not
                              > > succeeding it was time to change strategies and
                              > > commanders. Many a
                              > > general and military commander was sent packing
                              > > after not meeting the
                              > > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring the
                              > > Confederacy back
                              > > into the Union.
                              > >
                              > > There has been an unwillingness to admit mistakes
                              > > with the Iraq war
                              > > even though failures have presented themselves at
                              > > every turn. From
                              > > too few military personnel sent to control Iraq
                              > > after the downfall of
                              > > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                              > > international players
                              > > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                              > > accomplished' all shows a
                              > > lack of leadership and insight.
                              > >
                              > > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of words
                              > was
                              > > required to
                              > > convince a war weary public that the effort needed
                              > > to continue was
                              > > vital. He well understood convictions without
                              > > oratory in time of
                              > > national trauma, is a leader without a nation of
                              > > followers.
                              > >
                              > > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                              > > failed war strategy is
                              > > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                              > > addressing how the war
                              > > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his position in
                              > > the polls, and
                              > > more importantly be capable of resolving the other
                              > > matters that face
                              > > his Administration.
                              > >
                              > > I think Bush would be better off if he took a
                              > volume
                              > > or two about
                              > > Lincoln to bed, read them, and then talked to the
                              > > country in a
                              > > national address in a week.
                              > >
                              > > Gregory
                              > >
                              > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                              > > kelly
                              > > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Perhaps you could name someone who questions
                              > > Lincoln's
                              > > > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at
                              > the
                              > > > conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice
                              > toward
                              > > > none is referring to the defeated South, binding
                              > > up
                              > > > the nation's wounds can be taken very literally.
                              > > >
                              > > > Its a very different situation than today.
                              > During
                              > > the
                              > > > Civil War there was plenty of partisanship,
                              > > Democrats
                              > > > as well as Republicans in the North making
                              > > insulting
                              > > > comments about the President, I would think if
                              > > they
                              > > > had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's popularity
                              > > would
                              > > > have been quite low, especially in the first
                              > years
                              > > of
                              > > > the war.
                              > > >
                              > > > Really, where do you get this idea that
                              > > Republicans
                              > > > are "questioning Lincoln's patriotism?" That's
                              > > bunk.
                              > > >
                              > > > R. Kelly
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                              > > > > question the patriotism
                              > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with
                              > you
                              > > > > politically and
                              > > > > ideologically.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                              > > toward
                              > > > > none, with charity
                              > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
                              > gives
                              > > us
                              > > > > to see the right,
                              > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
                              > > to
                              > > > > bind up the nation's
                              > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne
                              > the
                              >
                              === message truncated ===


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                            • Ram Lau
                              ... Where did you get that from? I wonder what words of mine gave you the impression that I implied that question. No, I didn t mean to ask that. My reply
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 26, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > Perhaps you could name someone who questions Lincoln's
                                > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at the

                                Where did you get that from? I wonder what words of mine gave you the
                                impression that I implied that question. No, I didn't mean to ask that.

                                My reply started with my statement that I found it childish and
                                malicious for the right-wingers, unfortunately including yourself, to
                                question the patriotism of those Americans who disagree with them
                                politically and ideologically.

                                I proceeded to Lincoln's "charity for all" quote that, perhaps you are
                                not aware of, ends with "to do all which may achieve and cherish a
                                just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations." Because
                                Lincoln didn't because in a war of choice. He spoke out loud against
                                the Mexican-American War on the House floor back in 1848 as a freshman
                                Congressman from Illinois like Russ Feingold has been doing.

                                Even in the most difficult times of the history of America, political
                                opponents don't attack each other in such a fascist, and indeed,
                                unAmerican way.

                                Ram
                              • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                Thanks for answering my question and I agree that Lincoln was one of a kind, but I didn t understand the significance of the question about Lincoln not being
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 27, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks for answering my question and I agree that
                                  Lincoln was one of a kind, but I didn't understand the
                                  significance of the question about Lincoln not being
                                  on the ballot in 00 or 04.

                                  Tom



                                  --- richard kelly <richwkelly@...> wrote:

                                  > I'd rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere in
                                  > the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham
                                  > Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 2000 or
                                  > 2004, was he?
                                  >
                                  > Richard Kelly
                                  >
                                  > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due, in
                                  >
                                  > > no
                                  > > small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                                  > > competing viewpoints and translate them into
                                  > policy,
                                  > > and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he
                                  > was
                                  > > not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                                  > > re-election.
                                  > > Richard, how would you characterize Bush's
                                  > > presidency?
                                  > > Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top
                                  > shelf?
                                  > > Just curious...
                                  > >
                                  > > Tom
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Rich,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln.
                                  > > > Consider if you
                                  > > > will...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring
                                  > that
                                  > > > the nation did not
                                  > > > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a war
                                  > on
                                  > > > terrorism,
                                  > > > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                                  > > > overlooked so America
                                  > > > could invade Iraq.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells
                                  > us
                                  > > > much about how Bush
                                  > > > could better handle his.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lincoln was most able to take competing
                                  > viewpoints
                                  > > > and bridge the
                                  > > > differences. His own party had very deep
                                  > divisions
                                  > > > over the Radicals
                                  > > > who wanted a very strident effort to end slavery
                                  > > at
                                  > > > once, and
                                  > > > moderate elements that wished to find a more
                                  > > select
                                  > > > and cautious
                                  > > > series of steps to achieve mostly the same
                                  > result.
                                  > > > At the same time
                                  > > > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > Democratic camp
                                  > > > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Today the nation is highly divided over the war,
                                  > > how
                                  > > > the evidence was
                                  > > > gathered and presented to take our country into
                                  > > > battle, and how the
                                  > > > continued rationale for war is taking us
                                  > nowhere.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                                  > > > Executive he needed to
                                  > > > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of
                                  > the
                                  > > > war. He digested
                                  > > > information and became self-schooled in military
                                  > > > matters even though
                                  > > > he (like Bush) had limited military experience.
                                  > It
                                  > > > has been reported
                                  > > > in many books how Lincoln went to the War
                                  > > Department
                                  > > > and would
                                  > > > stretch back in a chair and read memos from his
                                  > > > generals and military
                                  > > > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire to
                                  > > > understand the war
                                  > > > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There is little evidence that Bush prides
                                  > himself
                                  > > at
                                  > > > being highly
                                  > > > adept at any topic, and no one has ever
                                  > suggested
                                  > > he
                                  > > > reads volumes of
                                  > > > information so as to convince the public he has
                                  > > the
                                  > > > mental resources
                                  > > > to make valid decisions.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to win
                                  > > the
                                  > > > war was not
                                  > > > succeeding it was time to change strategies and
                                  > > > commanders. Many a
                                  > > > general and military commander was sent packing
                                  > > > after not meeting the
                                  > > > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring
                                  > the
                                  > > > Confederacy back
                                  > > > into the Union.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There has been an unwillingness to admit
                                  > mistakes
                                  > > > with the Iraq war
                                  > > > even though failures have presented themselves
                                  > at
                                  > > > every turn. From
                                  > > > too few military personnel sent to control Iraq
                                  > > > after the downfall of
                                  > > > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                                  > > > international players
                                  > > > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                                  > > > accomplished' all shows a
                                  > > > lack of leadership and insight.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of words
                                  > > was
                                  > > > required to
                                  > > > convince a war weary public that the effort
                                  > needed
                                  > > > to continue was
                                  > > > vital. He well understood convictions without
                                  > > > oratory in time of
                                  > > > national trauma, is a leader without a nation of
                                  > > > followers.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                                  > > > failed war strategy is
                                  > > > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                                  > > > addressing how the war
                                  > > > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his position
                                  > in
                                  > > > the polls, and
                                  > > > more importantly be capable of resolving the
                                  > other
                                  > > > matters that face
                                  > > > his Administration.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think Bush would be better off if he took a
                                  > > volume
                                  > > > or two about
                                  > > > Lincoln to bed, read them, and then talked to
                                  > the
                                  > > > country in a
                                  > > > national address in a week.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gregory
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                                  > > > kelly
                                  > > > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Perhaps you could name someone who questions
                                  > > > Lincoln's
                                  > > > > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice
                                  > > toward
                                  > > > > none is referring to the defeated South,
                                  > binding
                                  > > > up
                                  > > > > the nation's wounds can be taken very
                                  > literally.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Its a very different situation than today.
                                  > > During
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > Civil War there was plenty of partisanship,
                                  > > > Democrats
                                  > > > > as well as Republicans in the North making
                                  > > > insulting
                                  > > > > comments about the President, I would think if
                                  > > > they
                                  > > > > had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's
                                  > popularity
                                  > > > would
                                  > > > > have been quite low, especially in the first
                                  > > years
                                  >
                                  === message truncated ===
                                • Gregory
                                  Rich, And of course Abe actually won his election to high office. A point we should not forget. But Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court and we can think
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 27, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Rich,

                                    And of course Abe actually won his election to high office. A point
                                    we should not forget.

                                    But Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court and we can think about
                                    the results. Iraq war. 2,500 (plus)soldiers killed. tens-of-
                                    thousands wounded in various ways. Well over 38,000 Iraqis killed.

                                    Laws and process matter. This whole series of posts started with you
                                    being angry over the NYT reporting that the Bush team did mot adhere
                                    to the rules and process for the banking matter in question.

                                    When laws and process are not followed bad things happen.

                                    Gregory

                                    --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard kelly
                                    <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'd rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere in
                                    > the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham
                                    > Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 2000 or
                                    > 2004, was he?
                                    >
                                    > Richard Kelly
                                    >
                                    > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due, in
                                    > > no
                                    > > small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                                    > > competing viewpoints and translate them into policy,
                                    > > and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he was
                                    > > not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                                    > > re-election.
                                    > > Richard, how would you characterize Bush's
                                    > > presidency?
                                    > > Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top shelf?
                                    > > Just curious...
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Rich,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO Lincoln.
                                    > > > Consider if you
                                    > > > will...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring that
                                    > > > the nation did not
                                    > > > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a war on
                                    > > > terrorism,
                                    > > > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                                    > > > overlooked so America
                                    > > > could invade Iraq.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells us
                                    > > > much about how Bush
                                    > > > could better handle his.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lincoln was most able to take competing viewpoints
                                    > > > and bridge the
                                    > > > differences. His own party had very deep divisions
                                    > > > over the Radicals
                                    > > > who wanted a very strident effort to end slavery
                                    > > at
                                    > > > once, and
                                    > > > moderate elements that wished to find a more
                                    > > select
                                    > > > and cautious
                                    > > > series of steps to achieve mostly the same result.
                                    > > > At the same time
                                    > > > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were in
                                    > > the
                                    > > > Democratic camp
                                    > > > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Today the nation is highly divided over the war,
                                    > > how
                                    > > > the evidence was
                                    > > > gathered and presented to take our country into
                                    > > > battle, and how the
                                    > > > continued rationale for war is taking us nowhere.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                                    > > > Executive he needed to
                                    > > > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of the
                                    > > > war. He digested
                                    > > > information and became self-schooled in military
                                    > > > matters even though
                                    > > > he (like Bush) had limited military experience. It
                                    > > > has been reported
                                    > > > in many books how Lincoln went to the War
                                    > > Department
                                    > > > and would
                                    > > > stretch back in a chair and read memos from his
                                    > > > generals and military
                                    > > > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire to
                                    > > > understand the war
                                    > > > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There is little evidence that Bush prides himself
                                    > > at
                                    > > > being highly
                                    > > > adept at any topic, and no one has ever suggested
                                    > > he
                                    > > > reads volumes of
                                    > > > information so as to convince the public he has
                                    > > the
                                    > > > mental resources
                                    > > > to make valid decisions.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to win
                                    > > the
                                    > > > war was not
                                    > > > succeeding it was time to change strategies and
                                    > > > commanders. Many a
                                    > > > general and military commander was sent packing
                                    > > > after not meeting the
                                    > > > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring the
                                    > > > Confederacy back
                                    > > > into the Union.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There has been an unwillingness to admit mistakes
                                    > > > with the Iraq war
                                    > > > even though failures have presented themselves at
                                    > > > every turn. From
                                    > > > too few military personnel sent to control Iraq
                                    > > > after the downfall of
                                    > > > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                                    > > > international players
                                    > > > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                                    > > > accomplished' all shows a
                                    > > > lack of leadership and insight.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of words
                                    > > was
                                    > > > required to
                                    > > > convince a war weary public that the effort needed
                                    > > > to continue was
                                    > > > vital. He well understood convictions without
                                    > > > oratory in time of
                                    > > > national trauma, is a leader without a nation of
                                    > > > followers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                                    > > > failed war strategy is
                                    > > > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                                    > > > addressing how the war
                                    > > > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his position in
                                    > > > the polls, and
                                    > > > more importantly be capable of resolving the other
                                    > > > matters that face
                                    > > > his Administration.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I think Bush would be better off if he took a
                                    > > volume
                                    > > > or two about
                                    > > > Lincoln to bed, read them, and then talked to the
                                    > > > country in a
                                    > > > national address in a week.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Gregory
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                                    > > > kelly
                                    > > > <richwkelly@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Perhaps you could name someone who questions
                                    > > > Lincoln's
                                    > > > > patriotism? Your quote is of course Lincoln at
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > conclusion of the Civil War, so with malice
                                    > > toward
                                    > > > > none is referring to the defeated South, binding
                                    > > > up
                                    > > > > the nation's wounds can be taken very literally.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Its a very different situation than today.
                                    > > During
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > Civil War there was plenty of partisanship,
                                    > > > Democrats
                                    > > > > as well as Republicans in the North making
                                    > > > insulting
                                    > > > > comments about the President, I would think if
                                    > > > they
                                    > > > > had Gallop polls back then, Lincoln's popularity
                                    > > > would
                                    > > > > have been quite low, especially in the first
                                    > > years
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > the war.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Really, where do you get this idea that
                                    > > > Republicans
                                    > > > > are "questioning Lincoln's patriotism?" That's
                                    > > > bunk.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > R. Kelly
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > I still think it's childish and malicious to
                                    > > > > > question the patriotism
                                    > > > > > of the Americans who happen to disagree with
                                    > > you
                                    > > > > > politically and
                                    > > > > > ideologically.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The leftist Lincoln once said, "With malice
                                    > > > toward
                                    > > > > > none, with charity
                                    > > > > > for all, with firmness in the right as God
                                    > > gives
                                    > > > us
                                    > > > > > to see the right,
                                    > > > > > let us strive on to finish the work we are in,
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > bind up the nation's
                                    > > > > > wounds, to care for him who shall have borne
                                    > > the
                                    > >
                                    > === message truncated ===
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • THOMAS JOHNSON
                                    A small aside: When Bush tried to upbraid Putin on his dictatorial behavior, Putin replied in effect, Don t lecture me, you wouldn t even be in office
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 27, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      A small aside: When Bush tried to upbraid Putin on
                                      his dictatorial behavior, Putin replied in effect,
                                      "Don't lecture me, you wouldn't even be in office
                                      without your Daddy's Supreme Court appointees." Bush
                                      has made us both the enemy and laughing stock of the
                                      whole world.

                                      Tom



                                      --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

                                      > Rich,
                                      >
                                      > And of course Abe actually won his election to high
                                      > office. A point
                                      > we should not forget.
                                      >
                                      > But Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court and we
                                      > can think about
                                      > the results. Iraq war. 2,500 (plus)soldiers
                                      > killed. tens-of-
                                      > thousands wounded in various ways. Well over 38,000
                                      > Iraqis killed.
                                      >
                                      > Laws and process matter. This whole series of posts
                                      > started with you
                                      > being angry over the NYT reporting that the Bush
                                      > team did mot adhere
                                      > to the rules and process for the banking matter in
                                      > question.
                                      >
                                      > When laws and process are not followed bad things
                                      > happen.
                                      >
                                      > Gregory
                                      >
                                      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                                      > kelly
                                      > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I'd rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere
                                      > in
                                      > > the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham
                                      > > Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 2000
                                      > or
                                      > > 2004, was he?
                                      > >
                                      > > Richard Kelly
                                      > >
                                      > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due,
                                      > in
                                      > > > no
                                      > > > small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                                      > > > competing viewpoints and translate them into
                                      > policy,
                                      > > > and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he
                                      > was
                                      > > > not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                                      > > > re-election.
                                      > > > Richard, how would you characterize Bush's
                                      > > > presidency?
                                      > > > Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top
                                      > shelf?
                                      > > > Just curious...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tom
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Rich,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO
                                      > Lincoln.
                                      > > > > Consider if you
                                      > > > > will...
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring
                                      > that
                                      > > > > the nation did not
                                      > > > > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a
                                      > war on
                                      > > > > terrorism,
                                      > > > > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                                      > > > > overlooked so America
                                      > > > > could invade Iraq.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells
                                      > us
                                      > > > > much about how Bush
                                      > > > > could better handle his.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lincoln was most able to take competing
                                      > viewpoints
                                      > > > > and bridge the
                                      > > > > differences. His own party had very deep
                                      > divisions
                                      > > > > over the Radicals
                                      > > > > who wanted a very strident effort to end
                                      > slavery
                                      > > > at
                                      > > > > once, and
                                      > > > > moderate elements that wished to find a more
                                      > > > select
                                      > > > > and cautious
                                      > > > > series of steps to achieve mostly the same
                                      > result.
                                      > > > > At the same time
                                      > > > > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were
                                      > in
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > Democratic camp
                                      > > > > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Today the nation is highly divided over the
                                      > war,
                                      > > > how
                                      > > > > the evidence was
                                      > > > > gathered and presented to take our country
                                      > into
                                      > > > > battle, and how the
                                      > > > > continued rationale for war is taking us
                                      > nowhere.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                                      > > > > Executive he needed to
                                      > > > > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of
                                      > the
                                      > > > > war. He digested
                                      > > > > information and became self-schooled in
                                      > military
                                      > > > > matters even though
                                      > > > > he (like Bush) had limited military
                                      > experience. It
                                      > > > > has been reported
                                      > > > > in many books how Lincoln went to the War
                                      > > > Department
                                      > > > > and would
                                      > > > > stretch back in a chair and read memos from
                                      > his
                                      > > > > generals and military
                                      > > > > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire
                                      > to
                                      > > > > understand the war
                                      > > > > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > There is little evidence that Bush prides
                                      > himself
                                      > > > at
                                      > > > > being highly
                                      > > > > adept at any topic, and no one has ever
                                      > suggested
                                      > > > he
                                      > > > > reads volumes of
                                      > > > > information so as to convince the public he
                                      > has
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > mental resources
                                      > > > > to make valid decisions.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to
                                      > win
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > war was not
                                      > > > > succeeding it was time to change strategies
                                      > and
                                      > > > > commanders. Many a
                                      > > > > general and military commander was sent
                                      > packing
                                      > > > > after not meeting the
                                      > > > > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring
                                      > the
                                      > > > > Confederacy back
                                      > > > > into the Union.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > There has been an unwillingness to admit
                                      > mistakes
                                      > > > > with the Iraq war
                                      > > > > even though failures have presented themselves
                                      > at
                                      > > > > every turn. From
                                      > > > > too few military personnel sent to control
                                      > Iraq
                                      > > > > after the downfall of
                                      > > > > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                                      > > > > international players
                                      > > > > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                                      > > > > accomplished' all shows a
                                      > > > > lack of leadership and insight.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of
                                      > words
                                      > > > was
                                      > > > > required to
                                      > > > > convince a war weary public that the effort
                                      > needed
                                      > > > > to continue was
                                      > > > > vital. He well understood convictions without
                                      > > > > oratory in time of
                                      > > > > national trauma, is a leader without a nation
                                      > of
                                      > > > > followers.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                                      > > > > failed war strategy is
                                      > > > > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                                      > > > > addressing how the war
                                      > > > > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his
                                      > position in
                                      >
                                      === message truncated ===
                                    • richard kelly
                                      Gregory: You re certainly well infored enought to know its a great over simplification to say Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court. Bush won the popular
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 27, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Gregory:

                                        You're certainly well infored enought to know
                                        its a great over simplification to say Bush was
                                        "appointed by the Supreme Court." Bush won the
                                        popular vote and the recount in Florida, then the
                                        Gore lawyers failed on numerous occasions to reverse
                                        this, so then the Florida Supreme Court called a
                                        statewide recount. As the Supreme Court ruled, the
                                        Florida Supreme Court had no authority to do this and
                                        they also provided no guidance. As has been pointed
                                        out, thanks to the Gore lawyers and their discovery of
                                        "hanging chads" etc, etc., even within the same voting
                                        station there was no consensus on what was and was not
                                        a vote. It was the Florida Supreme Court that was out
                                        of bounds. Hey, you're the "rule of law at all times"
                                        guy, right? The Democrats are such sore losers, even 6
                                        years later.

                                        Richard Kelly




                                        --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:

                                        > Rich,
                                        >
                                        > And of course Abe actually won his election to high
                                        > office. A point
                                        > we should not forget.
                                        >
                                        > But Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court and we
                                        > can think about
                                        > the results. Iraq war. 2,500 (plus)soldiers
                                        > killed. tens-of-
                                        > thousands wounded in various ways. Well over 38,000
                                        > Iraqis killed.
                                        >
                                        > Laws and process matter. This whole series of posts
                                        > started with you
                                        > being angry over the NYT reporting that the Bush
                                        > team did mot adhere
                                        > to the rules and process for the banking matter in
                                        > question.
                                        >
                                        > When laws and process are not followed bad things
                                        > happen.
                                        >
                                        > Gregory
                                        >
                                        > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, richard
                                        > kelly
                                        > <richwkelly@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'd rate it as not great, not terrible, somewhere
                                        > in
                                        > > the middle. Of course there was only one Abraham
                                        > > Lincoln. But Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 2000
                                        > or
                                        > > 2004, was he?
                                        > >
                                        > > Richard Kelly
                                        > >
                                        > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Good reply, Gregory.. Lincoln's genius was due,
                                        > in
                                        > > > no
                                        > > > small part, to his empathy.. he could understand
                                        > > > competing viewpoints and translate them into
                                        > policy,
                                        > > > and Richard, you are correct in assuming that he
                                        > was
                                        > > > not all that popular and, indeed, barely won
                                        > > > re-election.
                                        > > > Richard, how would you characterize Bush's
                                        > > > presidency?
                                        > > > Good? Great? Mediocre? Poor? Bottom-rung? Top
                                        > shelf?
                                        > > > Just curious...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tom
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- Gregory <greggolopry@...> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Rich,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Let me be perfectly clear...Bush is NO
                                        > Lincoln.
                                        > > > > Consider if you
                                        > > > > will...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Lincoln had a most difficult task of insuring
                                        > that
                                        > > > > the nation did not
                                        > > > > dissolve into separate halves. Bush faces a
                                        > war on
                                        > > > > terrorism,
                                        > > > > committed by Osma Bin Laden, which has been
                                        > > > > overlooked so America
                                        > > > > could invade Iraq.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > But how Lincoln reacted to his situation tells
                                        > us
                                        > > > > much about how Bush
                                        > > > > could better handle his.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Lincoln was most able to take competing
                                        > viewpoints
                                        > > > > and bridge the
                                        > > > > differences. His own party had very deep
                                        > divisions
                                        > > > > over the Radicals
                                        > > > > who wanted a very strident effort to end
                                        > slavery
                                        > > > at
                                        > > > > once, and
                                        > > > > moderate elements that wished to find a more
                                        > > > select
                                        > > > > and cautious
                                        > > > > series of steps to achieve mostly the same
                                        > result.
                                        > > > > At the same time
                                        > > > > Lincoln hoped not to undermine those who were
                                        > in
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > Democratic camp
                                        > > > > but were not totally opposed to his ideas.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Today the nation is highly divided over the
                                        > war,
                                        > > > how
                                        > > > > the evidence was
                                        > > > > gathered and presented to take our country
                                        > into
                                        > > > > battle, and how the
                                        > > > > continued rationale for war is taking us
                                        > nowhere.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Lincoln understood that to do the job as Chief
                                        > > > > Executive he needed to
                                        > > > > mire himself firmly in the daily operations of
                                        > the
                                        > > > > war. He digested
                                        > > > > information and became self-schooled in
                                        > military
                                        > > > > matters even though
                                        > > > > he (like Bush) had limited military
                                        > experience. It
                                        > > > > has been reported
                                        > > > > in many books how Lincoln went to the War
                                        > > > Department
                                        > > > > and would
                                        > > > > stretch back in a chair and read memos from
                                        > his
                                        > > > > generals and military
                                        > > > > personnel via the telegraph. He had a desire
                                        > to
                                        > > > > understand the war
                                        > > > > strategy so as to be a better war President.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > There is little evidence that Bush prides
                                        > himself
                                        > > > at
                                        > > > > being highly
                                        > > > > adept at any topic, and no one has ever
                                        > suggested
                                        > > > he
                                        > > > > reads volumes of
                                        > > > > information so as to convince the public he
                                        > has
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > mental resources
                                        > > > > to make valid decisions.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Lincoln understood that when the campaign to
                                        > win
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > war was not
                                        > > > > succeeding it was time to change strategies
                                        > and
                                        > > > > commanders. Many a
                                        > > > > general and military commander was sent
                                        > packing
                                        > > > > after not meeting the
                                        > > > > needs of a winning northern campaign to bring
                                        > the
                                        > > > > Confederacy back
                                        > > > > into the Union.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > There has been an unwillingness to admit
                                        > mistakes
                                        > > > > with the Iraq war
                                        > > > > even though failures have presented themselves
                                        > at
                                        > > > > every turn. From
                                        > > > > too few military personnel sent to control
                                        > Iraq
                                        > > > > after the downfall of
                                        > > > > the Iraqi government, to the reluctance to get
                                        > > > > international players
                                        > > > > involved in Iraq after Bush stated "mission
                                        > > > > accomplished' all shows a
                                        > > > > lack of leadership and insight.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Finally, Lincoln understood the weight of
                                        > words
                                        > > > was
                                        > > > > required to
                                        > > > > convince a war weary public that the effort
                                        > needed
                                        > > > > to continue was
                                        > > > > vital. He well understood convictions without
                                        > > > > oratory in time of
                                        > > > > national trauma, is a leader without a nation
                                        > of
                                        > > > > followers.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Bush has many obstacles to contend with, but a
                                        > > > > failed war strategy is
                                        > > > > at the heart of all his current woes. Without
                                        > > > > addressing how the war
                                        > > > > failed will mean he cannot reclaim his
                                        > position in
                                        >
                                        === message truncated ===


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