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985Re: 2 scandals

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  • Ram Lau
    Aug 19, 2005
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      Princess David! He probably said that in his second term? His
      Alzheimer's problem was getting quite real in his last years.

      His Budget Director, David Stockman, actually wrote a book confessing
      how much damage the supply-side (a.k.a. voodoo) economics had damage
      the economy in the long run. I just wonder where the true
      conservatives were and are when it comes to an issue as immoral as
      driving the country into bankrupcy for the future generations.

      Ram


      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      wrote:
      > Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
      > totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
      > Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
      > replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
      > passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
      > did get through usually benefited the rich at the
      > expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
      > Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
      > going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
      > "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
      > Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
      > un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
      > he called Princess Diana "Princess David."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
      > begin my judgement
      > on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
      > his 8 consecutive
      > deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
      > spending were not the
      > real reason for the deficit spending.
      >
      > The future generations will look at Reagan quite
      > differently, and will
      > most likely remember the baby boom generation with
      > contempt and
      > disrespect.
      >
      > Ram
      >
      >
      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
      > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      > wrote:
      > > While reading about the Harding administration and
      > > the Teapot Dome
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
      > I
      > > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
      > >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
      > > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
      > > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
      > > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
      > Republican
      > > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
      > > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
      > > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
      > > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
      > > administration.
      > > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
      > and
      > > the Iran-Contra scandal
      > > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
      > > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
      > > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
      > > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
      > immunity
      > > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
      > re
      > > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
      > > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
      > > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
      > pursuing
      > > Iran-Contra in the first place.
      > > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
      > long
      > > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
      > the
      > > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
      > Presidential
      > > Leadership Survey
      > >
      > http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
      > > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
      > > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
      > > How different things might have been if Bob
      > LaFollette
      > > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
      > not.
      > >
      > > Tom Johnson
      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Greg,
      > >
      > > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
      > > Rand Institute in
      > > her name a decade ago:
      > >
      > > http://www.aynrand.org/
      > >
      > > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
      > >
      > > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
      > > reason, rational
      > > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
      > > capitalism.
      > >
      > > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
      > a
      > > "cultural
      > > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
      > > anti-individualism,
      > > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
      > > culture. The major
      > > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
      > > is the
      > > educational institutions�high schools, and above
      > all,
      > > the
      > > universities, where students learn the ideas that
      > > shape their lives.
      > >
      > > Ayn Rand's philosophy�known as Objectivism�holds
      > that
      > > historical
      > > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
      > > reverse the
      > > current political and economic trends in America and
      > > throughout the
      > > world requires a reversal of our society's
      > fundamental
      > > philosophy."
      > >
      > > Ram
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
      > > <gregcannon1@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
      > > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
      > they
      > > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
      > different
      > > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
      > > were
      > > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
      > who
      > > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
      > > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
      > main
      > > > thing they agreed on was that private property
      > > should
      > > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
      > > Rand
      > > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
      > > them
      > > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
      > > She
      > > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
      > apparently
      > > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
      > > birth
      > > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
      > time.
      > > >
      > > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
      > > she
      > > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
      > What
      > > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
      > > >
      > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
      > Rand,
      > > > > surely a very
      > > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
      > > > > generation?) I sometimes
      > > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
      > > the
      > > > > imprisonment.
      > > > >
      > > > > Ram
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
      > > Cannon
      > > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
      > > but
      > > > > I
      > > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
      > pardoned
      > > > > him.
      > > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
      > in
      > > > > 1920,
      > > > > > though he was still in jail.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
      > the
      > > > > use
      > > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
      > > Emma
      > > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
      > > was
      > > > > not
      > > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
      > > Union
      > > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
      > > allowed
      > > > > to
      > > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
      > > speeches
      > > > > > against the war and against the draft.
      > Thousands
      > > > > were
      > > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
      > that
      > > > > her
      > > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
      > > > > general
      > > > > > than at Wilson himself.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
      > > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
      > > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
      > > > > > > political
      > > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
      > > > > curious
      > > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
      > that
      > > > > Deb's
      > > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
      > > > > attempt
      > > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
      > > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
      > the
      > > > > last
      > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
      > the
      > > > > fact
      > > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
      > > > > immediately
      > > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
      > > astounding.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Tom Johnson
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
      > > > > equality
      > > > > > > that the original
      > > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
      > superb
      > > > > > > Supreme
      > > > > > > Court Chief
      > > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
      > what
      > > > > kind
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > Justice Bush or
      > > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
      > only
      > > > > > > bother
      > > > > > > God when
      > > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
      > > never
      > > > > > > happen to mankind.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
      > The
      > > > > > > Democratic Party for
      > > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
      > > > > elements
      > > > > > > that Woodrow
      > > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
      > > > > while
      > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > Republican Party
      > > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
      > > > > something
      > > > > > > totally different
      > > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
      > > of
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > BookTV interview
      > > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
      > > > > > > Roosevelt,
      > > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
      > > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
      > very
      > > > > > > readable book:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Ram
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
      > THOMAS
      > > > > > > JOHNSON
      > > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
      > > responses
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
      > > > > entertained
      > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
      > was
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > most
      > > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
      > was
      > > > > born
      > > > > > > into
      > > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
      > > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
      > > > > > > machinery
      > > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
      > > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
      > > > > puppet
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
      > > reading
      > > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
      > > > > trust-busting. He
      > > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
      > > > > post-presidency,
      > > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
      > I
      > > > > also
      > > > > > > find
      > > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
      > > > > close
      > > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
      > > successor),
      > > > > and
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
      > together
      > > > > > > before
      > > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
      > in
      > >
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > 1912
      > > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
      > > > > 'congenital
      > > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
      > > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
      > > Anthony
      > > > > > > Cspan
      > > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
      > > that
      > > > > Ram
      > > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
      > that
      > > > > she
      > > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
      > see
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > whole
      > > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
      > > interview,
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > Debs
      > > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
      > > > > > > learning
      > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > lot form you guys.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Tom Johnson
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
      > > I'd
      > > > > also
      > > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
      > > here
      > > > > > > have
      > > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
      > with
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > Taft
      > > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
      > I'm
      > > > > > > reading
      > > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
      > > > > began
      > > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
      > taking
      > > > > Taft
      > > > > > > into
      > > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
      > > > > though
      > > > > > > > probably earlier.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
      > > prosecutions
      > > > > of
      > > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
      > first
      > > > > term,
      > > > > > > but
      > > > >
      > > > === message truncated ===
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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