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984Re: [prezveepsenator] Re: 2 scandals

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  • THOMAS JOHNSON
    Aug 18, 2005
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      Why Reagan remains so popular with historians and pols
      totally escapes me. When we lost the 247 marines in
      Lebanon, he wagged the dog and invaded Grenada to
      replace the tragedy as the main story . Not much was
      passed in the way of legislation on his watch but what
      did get through usually benefited the rich at the
      expense of the rest of us. He supported Pinochet,
      Suharto, the Contras and apartheid- era South Africa,
      going so for as condemning Nelson Mandela as a
      "communist terrorist." Nobel Peace Prize winner
      Desmond Tutu called him,"immoral, evil, and totally
      un-Christian." And then there was the incident where
      he called Princess Diana "Princess David."




      --- Ram Lau <ramlau@...> wrote:


      ---------------------------------
      Never a fan of Reagan. An Economics major, I always
      begin my judgement
      on Reagan with his tripling the national debt during
      his 8 consecutive
      deficit years. And the Cold War and the military
      spending were not the
      real reason for the deficit spending.

      The future generations will look at Reagan quite
      differently, and will
      most likely remember the baby boom generation with
      contempt and
      disrespect.

      Ram


      --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, THOMAS JOHNSON
      <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      wrote:
      > While reading about the Harding administration and
      > the Teapot Dome
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome scandal,
      I
      > became re-acquainted with Fightin' Bob LaFollette
      >
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.,
      > who's primary association for me was as a thorn in
      > Wilson's side. Although Harding was very popular and
      > the scandal had lost the public's interest,
      Republican
      > LaFollette kept investigating through a Senate
      > committee, with Democrat Thomas Walsh as point man.
      > Eventually the lies did not hold up, resulting in
      > imprisonment, suicides, and a disgraced
      > administration.
      > Fast forward 60 years to the Reagan administration
      and
      > the Iran-Contra scandal
      > ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair This
      > administration illegally traded arms for hostages,
      > with disastrous results reverberating even today.
      > Special prosecutor Walsh (ironically) granted
      immunity
      > to some key figures and everybody walked. Far from
      re
      > penitent, House Republicans impeached Bill Clinton,
      > according to Representative Dana Rohrabacher R-Cal,
      > primarily as payback for to the Democrats for
      pursuing
      > Iran-Contra in the first place.
      > In my opinion, Reagan did far more damage to our
      long
      > term interests than Harding, yet Reagan is ranked
      the
      > 11th best president in Cspan's Survey of
      Presidential
      > Leadership Survey
      >
      http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/,
      > comprised of prominent presidential historians, and
      > Harding is ranked 40th of 41.
      > How different things might have been if Bob
      LaFollette
      > had towed the party line or if Lawrence Walsh had
      not.
      >
      > Tom Johnson
      > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Greg,
      >
      > Rand has plenty of fans. They've even set up the Ayn
      > Rand Institute in
      > her name a decade ago:
      >
      > http://www.aynrand.org/
      >
      > She's the Milton Friedman of her era:
      >
      > "Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was an ardent advocate of
      > reason, rational
      > self-interest, individual rights and free-market
      > capitalism.
      >
      > ARI seeks to promote these principles, spearheading
      a
      > "cultural
      > renaissance" that will reverse the anti-reason,
      > anti-individualism,
      > anti-freedom, anti-capitalist trends in today's
      > culture. The major
      > battleground in this fight for reason and capitalism
      > is the
      > educational institutions—high schools, and above
      all,
      > the
      > universities, where students learn the ideas that
      > shape their lives.
      >
      > Ayn Rand's philosophy—known as Objectivism—holds
      that
      > historical
      > trends are the inescapable product of philosophy. To
      > reverse the
      > current political and economic trends in America and
      > throughout the
      > world requires a reversal of our society's
      fundamental
      > philosophy."
      >
      > Ram
      >
      >
      > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg Cannon
      > <gregcannon1@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > I have vague knowledge of Rand's writings and
      > > philosophy. I think they both believed in what
      they
      > > thought of as libertarianism, but had very
      different
      > > views on what exactly that was. Goldman's allies
      > were
      > > nearly always on the left. She had many friends
      who
      > > were socialist and communist, though she'd always
      > > disagree with them on many things. I think the
      main
      > > thing they agreed on was that private property
      > should
      > > be done away with, and that's one thing I'm sure
      > Rand
      > > would disagree with them on. Goldman also joined
      > them
      > > on more down-to-earth causes, like birth control.
      > She
      > > delivered lectures on birth control, and
      apparently
      > > condoms were distributed at her lectures though
      > birth
      > > control devices like that weren't legal at the
      time.
      > >
      > > I don't know much about Rand's personal life. Was
      > she
      > > as passionate about her beliefs as Goldman was?
      What
      > > was she like? For that matter, when did she live?
      > >
      > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Your mention of Emma Goldman reminds me Ayn
      Rand,
      > > > surely a very
      > > > different personality. (Ann Coulter of her
      > > > generation?) I sometimes
      > > > wonder if the Red Scare had anything to do with
      > the
      > > > imprisonment.
      > > >
      > > > Ram
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com, Greg
      > Cannon
      > > > <gregcannon1@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > I don't know the details of Debs' prosecution,
      > but
      > > > I
      > > > > recall reading that Coolidge eventually
      pardoned
      > > > him.
      > > > > And Debs did still get about a million votes
      in
      > > > 1920,
      > > > > though he was still in jail.
      > > > >
      > > > > The best (and really only) book I've read on
      the
      > > > use
      > > > > of the Espionage Act was the second volume of
      > Emma
      > > > > Goldman's autobiography. As an immigrant, she
      > was
      > > > not
      > > > > only jailed but also deported to the Soviet
      > Union
      > > > > (which she'd left in the 1880s) and never
      > allowed
      > > > to
      > > > > return to America, all because she'd made
      > speeches
      > > > > against the war and against the draft.
      Thousands
      > > > were
      > > > > deported at the same time as her. I recall
      that
      > > > her
      > > > > anger was more directed at Wilson's attorney
      > > > general
      > > > > than at Wilson himself.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- THOMAS JOHNSON <AVRCRDNG@F...> wrote:
      > > > > > I have read that Wilson was prone to use
      > > > > > the threat of prosecution of sedition as a
      > > > > > political
      > > > > > tool and was not above using propaganda. I'm
      > > > curious
      > > > > > whether that it is reasonable to assume
      that
      > > > Deb's
      > > > > > incarceration under the Espionage Act was an
      > > > attempt
      > > > > > to lessen his impact on the 1920 race.
      > > > > > I found the image of a weeping Taft being
      the
      > > > last
      > > > > > to
      > > > > > leave TR's grave site pretty touching, and
      the
      > > > fact
      > > > > > that TR delivered a 50 minute speech,
      > > > immediately
      > > > > > after taking a bullet in the chest,
      > astounding.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Tom Johnson
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- Ram Lau <ramlau@y...> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > > Because of his deep sense of fairness and
      > > > equality
      > > > > > that the original
      > > > > > Republican Party embraced, Taft made a
      superb
      > > > > > Supreme
      > > > > > Court Chief
      > > > > > Justice. I find it impossible to picture
      what
      > > > kind
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > Justice Bush or
      > > > > > Cheney would be, but I pray to God (and I
      only
      > > > > > bother
      > > > > > God when
      > > > > > necessary) that a Justice Bush/Cheney will
      > never
      > > > > > happen to mankind.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The 1912 election was a critical election.
      The
      > > > > > Democratic Party for
      > > > > > the first time experienced the progressive
      > > > elements
      > > > > > that Woodrow
      > > > > > Wilson and William Jennings Bryan embraced,
      > > > while
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > Republican Party
      > > > > > began to turn from a center-left party to
      > > > something
      > > > > > totally different
      > > > > > half a century later. Here is the transcript
      > of
      > > > the
      > > > > > BookTV interview
      > > > > > with the author of the book "1912: Wilson,
      > > > > > Roosevelt,
      > > > > > Taft, and Debs -
      > > > > > The Election That Changed the Country," a
      very
      > > > > > readable book:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prezveepsenator/message/192
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Ram
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In prezveepsenator@yahoogroups.com,
      THOMAS
      > > > > > JOHNSON
      > > > > > <AVRCRDNG@F...>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > Greg and Ram and all, thanks for the
      > responses
      > > > and
      > > > > > > welcoming me into the group. I have
      > > > entertained
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > notion that perhaps the Taft presidency
      was
      > > > the
      > > > > > most
      > > > > > > analogous to our current inhabitant. He
      was
      > > > born
      > > > > > into
      > > > > > > political privilege, divisive, pious,
      > > > > > > anti-environment, and a pawn of the party
      > > > > > machinery
      > > > > > > (TR claimed they stole the 1912 Republican
      > > > > > > nomination). I also would have included a
      > > > puppet
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > big business, but after doing a little
      > reading
      > > > > > > tonight, he apparently did some
      > > > trust-busting. He
      > > > > > > seems to have had a pretty good
      > > > post-presidency,
      > > > > > > including serving on the US Supreme Court.
      I
      > > > also
      > > > > > find
      > > > > > > it heartening that he and TR, who had been
      > > > close
      > > > > > > friends( Taft was TR's hand-picked
      > successor),
      > > > and
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > were able to have an amicable lunch
      together
      > > > > > before
      > > > > > > the latter's death , significant in that
      in
      >
      > > > the
      > > > > > 1912
      > > > > > > primaries terms such as 'fathead' and
      > > > 'congenital
      > > > > > > liar' were thrown at each other.
      > > > > > > I caught a bit of the Carl Sferrazza
      > Anthony
      > > > > > Cspan
      > > > > > > interview on the subject of Nellie Taft
      > that
      > > > Ram
      > > > > > > alluded to and came away with feeling
      that
      > > > she
      > > > > > was
      > > > > > > pretty cool..thanks Ram for the link to
      see
      > > > the
      > > > > > whole
      > > > > > > segment and for the great Coolidge
      > interview,
      > > > the
      > > > > > Debs
      > > > > > > profile and for answering my question. I'm
      > > > > > learning
      > > > > > a
      > > > > > > lot form you guys.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Tom Johnson
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- Greg Cannon <gregcannon1@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > > > I can't answer your question, Tom, though
      > I'd
      > > > also
      > > > > > > like to know the answer. Do you or anyone
      > here
      > > > > > have
      > > > > > > suggestions on books or websites to do
      with
      > > > the
      > > > > > Taft
      > > > > > > administration? The Roosevelt biography
      I'm
      > > > > > reading
      > > > > > > has been mentioning Taft a lot, how Teddy
      > > > began
      > > > > > > sending him on important missions and
      taking
      > > > Taft
      > > > > > into
      > > > > > > his confidence, at least as early as 1905
      > > > though
      > > > > > > probably earlier.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Roosevelt's occasional anti-trust
      > prosecutions
      > > > of
      > > > > > > monopolies raised quite a storm in his
      first
      > > > term,
      > > > > > but
      > > >
      > > === message truncated ===
      >
      >
      >
      >
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