Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business

Expand Messages
  • Ned Barnett
    A few more observations on this subject. I have three sons - two in their 20s, one in his early-mid 30s. None of them have obvious tattoos (I haven t pried
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 20 3:47 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      A few more observations on this subject.


      I have three sons - two in their 20s, one in his early-mid 30s. None of
      them have obvious tattoos (I haven't pried about possible intimate tattoos -
      none of my damned business <g>).


      One of them is a public school teacher (4th grade) in an elementary school
      in rural Arkansas. Imagine him applying for that job while festooned with
      garish and very public tattoos .



      One of them most recently worked as an executive in security for Target
      stores in Little Rock. Picture that image if you will. He's looking to
      become a retail entrepreneur, and to do that successfully, he'll have to
      interface with bankers, and probably folks from SCORE, and others who can
      help advance his business. So again, picture him sheep-dipped with garish
      and possibly offensive tattoos . (as an aside, he used to be a member of the
      Society for Creative Anachronism and he is a motorcycle rider - he very
      easily could have fallen into a tattoo lifestyle, but fortunately he had too
      much good sense).



      My eldest son is a college professor, and presumably he has a bit of leeway,
      especially since he teaches in the performing arts. But for his "publish or
      perish" requirement (and for the secondary income necessary for his wife to
      stay home and raise my grandkids), he has to design theatrical lighting for
      shows throughout the Southeast, at places like the High Museum of Art
      theater in Atlanta, the Tennessee Performing Arts Center (TPAC) and other
      theaters with wealthy and conservative patrons. While I'm sure some of the
      cast-and-crew of theatrical productions are tattooed up and it doesn't
      matter, he deals with both management and patrons. When he goes on those
      calls, he leaves his ear-ring home and (thankfully) he had better sense than
      to get public tattoos.



      So when I offer my opinions here, it's not just as a
      prejudiced-against-tattoos old codger, but also as someone who, as a dad of
      kids in "that" age group, I have been able to see how NOT having tattoos in
      public locations has helped all my kids get and keep decent jobs.



      And now, it's burger time.



      Ned



      Ned Barnett, APR

      Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

      Barnett Marketing Communications

      420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

      702-561-1167 - cell/text

      <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

      <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
      http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



      05-6-16 BMC Logo



      From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Ned Barnett
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:37 PM
      To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
      PR/Marketing business





      Duncan

      I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
      arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
      me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is what
      he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
      by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
      information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
      others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
      personal level.

      Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
      meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
      metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in a
      more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
      instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much as
      Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
      who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
      especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
      dress.

      The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
      himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking drugged
      or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird" at
      the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
      known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no reason
      - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding with
      me).

      And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.

      Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
      where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
      his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
      despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
      rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.

      I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
      fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which shows
      just one more level of bad judgment.

      My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
      McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
      registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
      most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
      "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
      However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
      limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
      or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake, don't
      put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates can
      find you.

      Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
      personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
      I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the bottom
      up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
      But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
      scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a part
      of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
      mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.

      Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
      Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
      soon.

      Ned

      Ned Barnett, APR

      Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

      Barnett Marketing Communications

      420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

      702-561-1167 - cell/text

      <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

      <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
      http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/

      05-6-16 BMC Logo

      From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
      Behalf Of
      Duncan Matheson
      Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
      To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
      PR/Marketing business

      I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and
      I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
      portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
      portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement -
      for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
      different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
      are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
      language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
      comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying
      to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And
      given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is
      going after.

      Duncan Matheson
      BissettMatheson Communications
      506-457-1627(O)
      506-447-2388(mobile)
      duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
      <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
      Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
      www.bissettmatheson.com

      On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:

      > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
      > Edna
      >
      > Edna Kaplan
      > President | KOGS Communication LLC
      > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
      > __________________________________________________________
      > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
      >
      >
      >
      > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
      >
      > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
      > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
      >
      > Blessings,
      > Jube Dankworth
      > Net Media Consultants
      > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
      > 817-400-2692
      >
      > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
      > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
      > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
      >
      > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
      >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light,
      and
      >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
      catch a
      >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
      programming,
      >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
      apologize
      >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
      himself and
      >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ________________________________
      >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@... <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
      <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
      >
      >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
      prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
      >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
      SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>

      >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
      >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
      >> PR/Marketing business
      >>
      >>
      >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
      incredibly
      >> bad judgment.
      >>
      >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
      >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
      himself),
      >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
      >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
      >>
      >> Check it out, check it outers .
      http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
      <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
      <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
      >>
      >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
      >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
      quickly
      >> unfriended him.
      >>
      >> Jeeze Louise .
      >>
      >> Ned Barnett, APR
      >>
      >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
      >>
      >> Barnett Marketing Communications
      >>
      >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
      >>
      >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
      >>
      >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
      @nedbarnett
      >>
      >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
      >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
      >>
      >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Duncan Matheson
      Hi Ned, OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target market - unless I missed it you didn t mention that he reached out to you for
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 20 6:12 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Ned,

        OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent job".

        Duncan
        Duncan Matheson
        BissettMatheson Communications
        506-457-1627(O)
        506-447-2388(mobile)
        duncan@...
        Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
        www.bissettmatheson.com


        On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

        > Duncan
        >
        > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
        > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
        > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is what
        > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
        > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
        > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
        > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
        > personal level.
        >
        > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
        > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
        > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in a
        > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
        > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much as
        > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
        > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
        > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
        > dress.
        >
        > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
        > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking drugged
        > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird" at
        > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
        > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no reason
        > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding with
        > me).
        >
        > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
        >
        > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
        > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
        > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
        > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
        > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
        >
        > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
        > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which shows
        > just one more level of bad judgment.
        >
        > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
        > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
        > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
        > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
        > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
        > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
        > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
        > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake, don't
        > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates can
        > find you.
        >
        > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
        > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
        > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the bottom
        > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
        > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
        > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a part
        > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
        > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
        >
        > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
        > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
        > soon.
        >
        > Ned
        >
        > Ned Barnett, APR
        >
        > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
        >
        > Barnett Marketing Communications
        >
        > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
        >
        > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
        >
        > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
        >
        > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
        > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
        >
        > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
        >
        > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > Duncan Matheson
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
        > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
        > PR/Marketing business
        >
        > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and
        > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
        > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
        > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement -
        > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
        > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
        > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
        > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
        > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying
        > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And
        > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is
        > going after.
        >
        > Duncan Matheson
        > BissettMatheson Communications
        > 506-457-1627(O)
        > 506-447-2388(mobile)
        > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
        > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
        > www.bissettmatheson.com
        >
        > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
        >
        > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
        > > Edna
        > >
        > > Edna Kaplan
        > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
        > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
        > > __________________________________________________________
        > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
        > >
        > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
        > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
        > >
        > > Blessings,
        > > Jube Dankworth
        > > Net Media Consultants
        > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
        > > 817-400-2692
        > >
        > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
        > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
        > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
        > >
        > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
        > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light,
        > and
        > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
        > catch a
        > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
        > programming,
        > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
        > apologize
        > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
        > himself and
        > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ________________________________
        > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@... <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
        > >
        > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
        > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
        > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
        > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
        > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
        > >> PR/Marketing business
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
        > incredibly
        > >> bad judgment.
        > >>
        > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
        > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
        > himself),
        > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
        > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
        > >>
        > >> Check it out, check it outers .
        > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
        > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
        > >>
        > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
        > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
        > quickly
        > >> unfriended him.
        > >>
        > >> Jeeze Louise .
        > >>
        > >> Ned Barnett, APR
        > >>
        > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
        > >>
        > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
        > >>
        > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
        > >>
        > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
        > >>
        > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
        > @nedbarnett
        > >>
        > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
        > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
        > >>
        > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ------------------------------------
        > >>
        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ned Barnett
        Duncan There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for, we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 20 7:46 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Duncan


          There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
          we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
          came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
          just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
          actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
          exceptions.



          And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
          his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
          contact him.



          And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
          obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.


          But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
          that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
          still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
          3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.


          Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
          exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
          this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
          hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
          will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
          exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
          it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.



          So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
          teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
          about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
          all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
          uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
          job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
          make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
          prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
          those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
          feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
          tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
          blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
          are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
          forehead.


          Or so it seems to me.


          Ned



          Ned Barnett, APR

          Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

          Barnett Marketing Communications

          420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

          702-561-1167 - cell/text

          <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

          <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
          http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



          05-6-16 BMC Logo



          From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Duncan Matheson
          Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
          To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
          PR/Marketing business





          Hi Ned,

          OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
          market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
          for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
          markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
          may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
          appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
          no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
          is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
          gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
          website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
          probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
          did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
          the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
          included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
          company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
          money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
          add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
          destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
          just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
          the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
          interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
          considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
          job".

          Duncan
          Duncan Matheson
          BissettMatheson Communications
          506-457-1627(O)
          506-447-2388(mobile)
          duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
          Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
          www.bissettmatheson.com

          On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

          > Duncan
          >
          > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
          > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
          > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
          what
          > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
          > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
          > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
          > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
          > personal level.
          >
          > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
          > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
          > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
          a
          > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
          > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
          as
          > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
          > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
          > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
          > dress.
          >
          > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
          > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
          drugged
          > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
          at
          > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
          > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
          reason
          > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
          with
          > me).
          >
          > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
          >
          > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
          > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
          > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
          > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
          > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
          >
          > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
          > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
          shows
          > just one more level of bad judgment.
          >
          > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
          > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
          > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
          > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
          > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
          > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
          > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
          > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
          don't
          > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
          can
          > find you.
          >
          > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
          > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
          > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
          bottom
          > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
          > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
          > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
          part
          > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
          > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
          >
          > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
          > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
          > soon.
          >
          > Ned
          >
          > Ned Barnett, APR
          >
          > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
          >
          > Barnett Marketing Communications
          >
          > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
          >
          > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
          >
          > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
          >
          > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
          > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
          >
          > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
          >
          > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
          Behalf Of
          > Duncan Matheson
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
          > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
          > PR/Marketing business
          >
          > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
          and
          > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
          to
          > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
          wouldn't
          > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
          -
          > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
          > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
          > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
          > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
          > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
          trying
          > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
          And
          > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
          is
          > going after.
          >
          > Duncan Matheson
          > BissettMatheson Communications
          > 506-457-1627(O)
          > 506-447-2388(mobile)
          > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
          <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
          > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
          > www.bissettmatheson.com
          >
          > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
          >
          > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
          > > Edna
          > >
          > > Edna Kaplan
          > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
          > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
          > > __________________________________________________________
          > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
          > >
          > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
          > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
          > >
          > > Blessings,
          > > Jube Dankworth
          > > Net Media Consultants
          > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
          > > 817-400-2692
          > >
          > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
          > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
          > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
          > >
          > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
          > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
          light,
          > and
          > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
          > catch a
          > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
          > programming,
          > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
          > apologize
          > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
          > himself and
          > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ________________________________
          > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
          <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
          > >
          > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
          > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
          > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
          > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
          >
          > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
          > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
          > >> PR/Marketing business
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
          > incredibly
          > >> bad judgment.
          > >>
          > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
          > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
          > himself),
          > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
          > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
          > >>
          > >> Check it out, check it outers .
          > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
          <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
          > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
          > >>
          > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
          > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
          > quickly
          > >> unfriended him.
          > >>
          > >> Jeeze Louise .
          > >>
          > >> Ned Barnett, APR
          > >>
          > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
          > >>
          > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
          > >>
          > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
          > >>
          > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
          > >>
          > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
          > @nedbarnett
          > >>
          > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
          > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
          > >>
          > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • desmondekeh@yahoo.com
          Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don t know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 21 12:25 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think. Desmond.
            Sent from my BlackBerry� smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...>
            Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
            To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com>
            Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business

            Duncan


            There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
            we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
            came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
            just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
            actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
            exceptions.



            And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
            his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
            contact him.



            And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
            obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.


            But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
            that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
            still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
            3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.


            Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
            exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
            this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
            hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
            will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
            exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
            it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.



            So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
            teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
            about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
            all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
            uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
            job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
            make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
            prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
            those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
            feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
            tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
            blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
            are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
            forehead.


            Or so it seems to me.


            Ned



            Ned Barnett, APR

            Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

            Barnett Marketing Communications

            420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

            702-561-1167 - cell/text

            <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

            <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
            http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



            05-6-16 BMC Logo



            From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Duncan Matheson
            Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
            To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
            PR/Marketing business





            Hi Ned,

            OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
            market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
            for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
            markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
            may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
            appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
            no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
            is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
            gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
            website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
            probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
            did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
            the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
            included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
            company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
            money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
            add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
            destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
            just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
            the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
            interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
            considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
            job".

            Duncan
            Duncan Matheson
            BissettMatheson Communications
            506-457-1627(O)
            506-447-2388(mobile)
            duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
            Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
            www.bissettmatheson.com

            On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

            > Duncan
            >
            > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
            > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
            > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
            what
            > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
            > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
            > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
            > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
            > personal level.
            >
            > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
            > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
            > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
            a
            > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
            > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
            as
            > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
            > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
            > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
            > dress.
            >
            > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
            > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
            drugged
            > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
            at
            > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
            > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
            reason
            > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
            with
            > me).
            >
            > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
            >
            > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
            > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
            > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
            > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
            > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
            >
            > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
            > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
            shows
            > just one more level of bad judgment.
            >
            > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
            > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
            > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
            > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
            > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
            > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
            > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
            > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
            don't
            > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
            can
            > find you.
            >
            > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
            > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
            > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
            bottom
            > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
            > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
            > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
            part
            > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
            > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
            >
            > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
            > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
            > soon.
            >
            > Ned
            >
            > Ned Barnett, APR
            >
            > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
            >
            > Barnett Marketing Communications
            >
            > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
            >
            > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
            >
            > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
            >
            > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
            > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
            >
            > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
            >
            > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf Of
            > Duncan Matheson
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
            > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
            > PR/Marketing business
            >
            > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
            and
            > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
            to
            > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
            wouldn't
            > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
            -
            > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
            > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
            > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
            > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
            > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
            trying
            > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
            And
            > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
            is
            > going after.
            >
            > Duncan Matheson
            > BissettMatheson Communications
            > 506-457-1627(O)
            > 506-447-2388(mobile)
            > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
            <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
            > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
            > www.bissettmatheson.com
            >
            > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
            >
            > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
            > > Edna
            > >
            > > Edna Kaplan
            > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
            > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
            > > __________________________________________________________
            > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
            > >
            > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
            > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
            > >
            > > Blessings,
            > > Jube Dankworth
            > > Net Media Consultants
            > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
            > > 817-400-2692
            > >
            > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
            > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
            > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
            > >
            > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
            > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
            light,
            > and
            > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
            > catch a
            > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
            > programming,
            > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
            > apologize
            > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
            > himself and
            > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ________________________________
            > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
            <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
            > >
            > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
            > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
            > >> PR/Marketing business
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
            > incredibly
            > >> bad judgment.
            > >>
            > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
            > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
            > himself),
            > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
            > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
            > >>
            > >> Check it out, check it outers .
            > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
            <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
            > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
            > >>
            > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
            > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
            > quickly
            > >> unfriended him.
            > >>
            > >> Jeeze Louise .
            > >>
            > >> Ned Barnett, APR
            > >>
            > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
            > >>
            > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
            > >>
            > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
            > >>
            > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
            > >>
            > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
            > @nedbarnett
            > >>
            > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
            > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
            > >>
            > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ------------------------------------
            > >>
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jube
            Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle. Then in the 80s we had the yuppies.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 21 8:56 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular
              middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle.

              Then in the 80s we had the yuppies. Who were the yuppies? The ones who
              stay in college, who were able to shave and cut their hair and become
              the responsible adults (except at Chilis), the ones may have used drugs
              but were not addicted.

              The folks who caught a major disease from their lifestyle choices, who
              became addicted, or who left college to expand their minds, the majority
              of these folks were not ready for the next change in life and lifestyle.

              Taste if you must, but do not jump in with both feet.

              Blessings,
              Jube Dankworth
              Net Media Consultants
              http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
              817-400-2692

              http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
              http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
              http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants

              On 7/21/2012 2:25 AM, desmondekeh@... wrote:
              > Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think. Desmond.
              >
              > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              >
              > From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...>
              >
              > Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
              >
              > To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business
              >
              >
              >
              > Duncan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
              >
              > we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
              >
              > came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
              >
              > just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
              >
              > actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
              >
              > exceptions.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
              >
              > his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
              >
              > contact him.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
              >
              > obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
              >
              > that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
              >
              > still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
              >
              > 3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
              >
              > exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
              >
              > this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
              >
              > hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
              >
              > will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
              >
              > exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
              >
              > it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
              >
              > teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
              >
              > about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
              >
              > all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
              >
              > uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
              >
              > job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
              >
              > make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
              >
              > prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
              >
              > those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
              >
              > feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
              >
              > tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
              >
              > blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
              >
              > are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
              >
              > forehead.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Or so it seems to me.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ned
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ned Barnett, APR
              >
              >
              >
              > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
              >
              >
              >
              > Barnett Marketing Communications
              >
              >
              >
              > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
              >
              >
              >
              > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
              >
              >
              >
              > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
              >
              >
              >
              > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              >
              > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              >
              > Duncan Matheson
              >
              > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
              >
              > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              >
              > PR/Marketing business
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Ned,
              >
              >
              >
              > OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
              >
              > market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
              >
              > for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
              >
              > markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
              >
              > may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
              >
              > appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
              >
              > no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
              >
              > is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
              >
              > gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
              >
              > website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
              >
              > probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
              >
              > did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
              >
              > the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
              >
              > included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
              >
              > company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
              >
              > money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
              >
              > add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
              >
              > destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
              >
              > just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
              >
              > the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
              >
              > interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
              >
              > considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
              >
              > job".
              >
              >
              >
              > Duncan
              >
              > Duncan Matheson
              >
              > BissettMatheson Communications
              >
              > 506-457-1627(O)
              >
              > 506-447-2388(mobile)
              >
              > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
              >
              > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
              >
              > www.bissettmatheson.com
              >
              >
              >
              > On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >> Duncan
              >> I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
              >> arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
              >> me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
              > what
              >
              >> he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
              >> by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
              >> information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
              >> others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
              >> personal level.
              >> Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
              >> meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
              >> metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
              > a
              >
              >> more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
              >> instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
              > as
              >
              >> Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
              >> who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
              >> especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
              >> dress.
              >> The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
              >> himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
              > drugged
              >
              >> or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
              > at
              >
              >> the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
              >> known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
              > reason
              >
              >> - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
              > with
              >
              >> me).
              >> And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
              >> Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
              >> where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
              >> his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
              >> despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
              >> rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
              >> I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
              >> fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
              > shows
              >
              >> just one more level of bad judgment.
              >> My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
              >> McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
              >> registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
              >> most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
              >> "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
              >> However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
              >> limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
              >> or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
              > don't
              >
              >> put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
              > can
              >
              >> find you.
              >> Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
              >> personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
              >> I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
              > bottom
              >
              >> up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
              >> But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
              >> scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
              > part
              >
              >> of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
              >> mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
              >> Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
              >> Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
              >> soon.
              >> Ned
              >> Ned Barnett, APR
              >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
              >> Barnett Marketing Communications
              >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
              >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
              >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
              >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
              >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
              >> From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              >
              > Behalf Of
              >
              >> Duncan Matheson
              >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
              >> To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              >> PR/Marketing business
              >> I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
              > and
              >
              >> I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
              > to
              >
              >> portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
              > wouldn't
              >
              >> portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
              > -
              >
              >> for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
              >> different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
              >> are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
              >> language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
              >> comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
              > trying
              >
              >> to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
              > And
              >
              >> given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
              > is
              >
              >> going after.
              >> Duncan Matheson
              >> BissettMatheson Communications
              >> 506-457-1627(O)
              >> 506-447-2388(mobile)
              >> duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
              > <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
              >
              >> Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
              >> www.bissettmatheson.com
              >> On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
              >>> Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
              >>> Edna
              >>> Edna Kaplan
              >>> President | KOGS Communication LLC
              >>> 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
              >>> __________________________________________________________
              >>> 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
              >>> On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
              >>> Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
              >>> I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
              >>> Blessings,
              >>> Jube Dankworth
              >>> Net Media Consultants
              >>> http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
              >>> 817-400-2692
              >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
              >>> http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
              >>> http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
              >>> On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
              >>>> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
              > light,
              >
              >> and
              >>>> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
              >> catch a
              >>>> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
              >> programming,
              >>>> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
              >> apologize
              >>>> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
              >> himself and
              >>>> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
              >>>> ________________________________
              >>>> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
              > <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
              >
              >>>> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              >
              >> prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              >
              >>>> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              >
              >> SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              >>>> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
              >>>> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              >>>> PR/Marketing business
              >>>> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
              >> incredibly
              >>>> bad judgment.
              >>>> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
              >>>> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
              >> himself),
              >>>> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
              >>>> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
              >>>> Check it out, check it outers .
              >> http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
              > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
              >
              >> <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
              >>>> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
              >>>> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
              >> quickly
              >>>> unfriended him.
              >>>> Jeeze Louise .
              >>>> Ned Barnett, APR
              >>>> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
              >>>> Barnett Marketing Communications
              >>>> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
              >>>> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
              >>>> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
              >> @nedbarnett
              >>>> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              >>>> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
              >>>> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>> ------------------------------------
              >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ned Barnett
              Sound advice indeed. I remember back in my college hippie and anti-war days (being anti-war after seeking and gaining an Annapolis appointment - and, after
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 21 2:42 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Sound advice indeed.


                I remember back in my college "hippie" and "anti-war" days (being anti-war
                after seeking and gaining an Annapolis appointment - and, after failing my
                eye exam, volunteering for ROTC ought to tell you something about the
                passion of the "movement," at least in the Deep South in the late 60s and
                early 70s) - and there were literally some people who felt being in the
                counter-culture movement would be a life-long experience, as if they could
                support themselves with it.


                I saw it as "street theater" - something fun to do between (or instead of)
                classes, but not a lifestyle choice by any means. The only thing I was
                serious about in college, other than PBR and getting married (both big
                mistakes) was supporting the civil rights movement.



                I found amazing those who were so intensely serious about the "movement" and
                who thought it would be their whole lives. When they finally grew up, they
                had to start over, not always the easiest thing to do, especially if you
                start a family along the way. Lots of folks I see now, in their late 50s or
                into their 60s, who have manual-labor jobs (or who became chronic over-aged
                stoners), were "in the movement" in college, and didn't realize that it
                wasn't a life-long lifestyle choice.



                My idea of "the movement" was shaped by the Kent State "riots" at the
                University of Georgia. We sat around the quadrangle, drinking beer and
                chatting. Then the Channel 2 Atlanta TV truck showed up, and everybody went
                nuts for the camera - jumping around like crazy folks, waving signs - some
                guy (who was in ROTC) raised a Viet Cong flag over the Admin building, not
                for any political reason but just for the hell of it (and when his parents
                found out, yanked him out of school three weeks before graduation). When
                the TV crews shut down, everything calmed down instantly. No damage, but no
                classes. So with some friends, I grabbed some beer and a bucket of the
                Colonel's best, and we went to "hole in the wall" (a damaged dam in the
                Oconee River) and went swimming/had a picnic. That, to me, was "the
                movement."



                I organized several "protests" - we seized the Confederate War Memorial, for
                instance (ah, the irony) - but my favorite was when I burned my draft card
                in front of 400 or so students. Here, as Paul Harvey used to say, is "the
                rest of the story." I'd gotten a letter from my draft board, with a new
                draft card, saying I'd been reclassified and needed to carry the new card
                and destroy the old card - and that this mandate to destroy the old card was
                Federal law - I could be in big trouble if I didn't destroy it. So I
                printed up some flyers, posted them around campus, and at 2 p.m. on a
                Tuesday, with the letter from my draft board and my new draft card firmly
                ensconced in the hip pocket of my Levis, I then burned my draft card, just
                as I'd been instructed.



                And that kind of skim-the-surface-but-don't-take-it-seriously attitude is
                the same Jube is counseling here. People who want a tattoo should put it
                somewhere that normal street clothes will hide, to avoid any future
                blow-back. There's no need to turn yourself into a walking billboard.



                My favorite is the folks who put Chinese or Japanese ideograms on their
                bodies, having no idea what they say or mean (I've heard that some are
                shopping lists or the like). If this is an IQ test, they flunk. I laugh.



                Ned



                Ned Barnett, APR

                Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

                Barnett Marketing Communications

                420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

                702-561-1167 - cell/text

                <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

                <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



                05-6-16 BMC Logo



                From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Jube
                Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 8:56 AM
                To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                PR/Marketing business





                Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular
                middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle.

                Then in the 80s we had the yuppies. Who were the yuppies? The ones who
                stay in college, who were able to shave and cut their hair and become
                the responsible adults (except at Chilis), the ones may have used drugs
                but were not addicted.

                The folks who caught a major disease from their lifestyle choices, who
                became addicted, or who left college to expand their minds, the majority
                of these folks were not ready for the next change in life and lifestyle.

                Taste if you must, but do not jump in with both feet.

                Blessings,
                Jube Dankworth
                Net Media Consultants
                http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                817-400-2692

                http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants

                On 7/21/2012 2:25 AM, desmondekeh@... <mailto:desmondekeh%40yahoo.com>
                wrote:
                > Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and
                change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem
                to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change
                especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep
                changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to
                remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I
                suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to
                leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't
                condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is
                that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of
                a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think.
                Desmond.
                >
                > Sent from my BlackBerryR smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...
                <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> >
                >
                > Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
                >
                > To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> >
                >
                > Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                PR/Marketing business
                >
                >
                >
                > Duncan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked
                for,
                >
                > we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever
                clients
                >
                > came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
                >
                > just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and
                might
                >
                > actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
                >
                > exceptions.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions
                -
                >
                > his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
                >
                > contact him.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is
                so
                >
                > obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
                >
                > that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100
                companies
                >
                > still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to
                the
                >
                > 3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
                >
                > exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
                >
                > this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become
                HR
                >
                > hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
                >
                > will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
                >
                > exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
                >
                > it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
                >
                > teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
                >
                > about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
                >
                > all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
                >
                > uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
                >
                > job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
                >
                > make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
                >
                > prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
                >
                > those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
                >
                > feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
                >
                > tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
                >
                > blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find
                them
                >
                > are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
                >
                > forehead.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Or so it seems to me.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Ned
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Ned Barnett, APR
                >
                >
                >
                > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                >
                >
                >
                > Barnett Marketing Communications
                >
                >
                >
                > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                >
                >
                >
                > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                >
                >
                >
                > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                >
                >
                >
                > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                >
                > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                Behalf Of
                >
                > Duncan Matheson
                >
                > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
                >
                > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                >
                > PR/Marketing business
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Ned,
                >
                >
                >
                > OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
                >
                > market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
                >
                > for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
                >
                > markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you,
                it
                >
                > may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
                >
                > appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I
                have
                >
                > no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what
                he
                >
                > is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
                >
                > gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
                >
                > website development company in our city has a creative team who's look
                would
                >
                > probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do.
                They
                >
                > did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually
                in
                >
                > the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
                >
                > included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of
                the
                >
                > company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
                >
                > money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
                >
                > add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
                >
                > destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well,
                you're
                >
                > just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any
                of
                >
                > the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
                >
                > interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
                >
                > considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
                >
                > job".
                >
                >
                >
                > Duncan
                >
                > Duncan Matheson
                >
                > BissettMatheson Communications
                >
                > 506-457-1627(O)
                >
                > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                >
                > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                >
                > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                >
                > www.bissettmatheson.com
                >
                >
                >
                > On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >> Duncan
                >> I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                >> arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                >> me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
                > what
                >
                >> he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put
                off
                >> by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                >> information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                >> others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                >> personal level.
                >> Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                >> meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                >> metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people
                in
                > a
                >
                >> more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                >> instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
                > as
                >
                >> Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                >> who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                >> especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                >> dress.
                >> The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                >> himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
                > drugged
                >
                >> or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
                > at
                >
                >> the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                >> known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
                > reason
                >
                >> - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
                > with
                >
                >> me).
                >> And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                >> Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                >> where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                >> his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                >> despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                >> rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                >> I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                >> fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
                > shows
                >
                >> just one more level of bad judgment.
                >> My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                >> McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                >> registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                >> most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                >> "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                >> However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream
                culture,
                >> limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of
                slacks
                >> or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
                > don't
                >
                >> put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
                > can
                >
                >> find you.
                >> Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from
                now,
                >> personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                >> I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
                > bottom
                >
                >> up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                >> But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you
                wouldn't
                >> scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
                > part
                >
                >> of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                >> mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                >> Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                >> Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                >> soon.
                >> Ned
                >> Ned Barnett, APR
                >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                @nedbarnett
                >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                >> From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                > [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                >
                > Behalf Of
                >
                >> Duncan Matheson
                >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                >> To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                >> PR/Marketing business
                >> I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
                > and
                >
                >> I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
                > to
                >
                >> portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
                > wouldn't
                >
                >> portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
                > -
                >
                >> for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                >> different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because
                you
                >> are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                >> language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                >> comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
                > trying
                >
                >> to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
                > And
                >
                >> given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
                > is
                >
                >> going after.
                >> Duncan Matheson
                >> BissettMatheson Communications
                >> 506-457-1627(O)
                >> 506-447-2388(mobile)
                >> duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                > <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                >
                >> Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                >> www.bissettmatheson.com
                >> On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                >>> Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                >>> Edna
                >>> Edna Kaplan
                >>> President | KOGS Communication LLC
                >>> 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                >>> __________________________________________________________
                >>> 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                >>> On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                >>> Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                >>> I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                >>> Blessings,
                >>> Jube Dankworth
                >>> Net Media Consultants
                >>> http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                >>> 817-400-2692
                >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                >>> http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                >>> http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                >>> On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                >>>> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
                > light,
                >
                >> and
                >>>> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                >> catch a
                >>>> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                >> programming,
                >>>> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                >> apologize
                >>>> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                >> himself and
                >>>> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                >>>> ________________________________
                >>>> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
                <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                > <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                >
                >>>> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                >
                >> prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                >
                >>>> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                >
                >> SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                >>>> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                >>>> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                >>>> PR/Marketing business
                >>>> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                >> incredibly
                >>>> bad judgment.
                >>>> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                >>>> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                >> himself),
                >>>> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                >>>> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                >>>> Check it out, check it outers .
                >> http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                >
                >> <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                >>>> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                >>>> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                >> quickly
                >>>> unfriended him.
                >>>> Jeeze Louise .
                >>>> Ned Barnett, APR
                >>>> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                >>>> Barnett Marketing Communications
                >>>> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                >>>> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                >>>> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                >> @nedbarnett
                >>>> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                >>>> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                >>>> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.