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Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business

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  • Duncan Matheson
    I don t see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and I suspect this guy s site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn t want to
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 18, 2012
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      I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement - for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is going after.

      Duncan Matheson
      BissettMatheson Communications
      506-457-1627(O)
      506-447-2388(mobile)
      duncan@...
      Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
      www.bissettmatheson.com


      On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:

      > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
      > Edna
      >
      > Edna Kaplan
      > President | KOGS Communication LLC
      > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
      > _____________________________________________________________
      > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
      >
      >
      >
      > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
      >
      > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
      > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
      >
      > Blessings,
      > Jube Dankworth
      > Net Media Consultants
      > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
      > 817-400-2692
      >
      > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
      > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
      > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
      >
      > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
      >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light, and
      >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However, catch a
      >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time programming,
      >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I apologize
      >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients, himself and
      >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ________________________________
      >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...>
      >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com; prbytes@yahoogroups.com;
      >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com; SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
      >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
      >> PR/Marketing business
      >>
      >>
      >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have incredibly
      >> bad judgment.
      >>
      >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
      >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of himself),
      >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
      >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
      >>
      >> Check it out, check it outers . http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
      >>
      >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
      >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I quickly
      >> unfriended him.
      >>
      >> Jeeze Louise .
      >>
      >> Ned Barnett, APR
      >>
      >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
      >>
      >> Barnett Marketing Communications
      >>
      >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
      >>
      >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
      >>
      >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
      >>
      >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
      >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
      >>
      >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      >>
      >>
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      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kezia_jauron
      (Once again I find myself inside this generation gap between you and the young people you mention...) Don t have any, but the consequences are no longer so
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 19, 2012
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        (Once again I find myself inside this generation gap between you and the young people you mention...)

        Don't have any, but the consequences are no longer so consequential. It's no longer a novelty and it's not as unacceptable as it once was, personally or professionally.

        I only see it growing more accepted. (Ultimately the 20-year-olds with tattoos will become 50-year-olds with hiring authority.) That guy with the elbow tattoos may in fact wear a coat and tie to work every day, and no one in his firm is the wiser. It happens more often than we think.

        A friend of mine has several tattoos on her upper body, including North Stars (a symbol of nonconformity) on her wrist which are often visible even in long sleeves. She's already got one law degree from Harvard and is now getting another one from Cambridge. Between Georgetown and London she has plenty of chances to wear cocktail gowns and formalwear, and nobody seems to care that she's tatted up when they see her without a suit on for the first time. It certainly hasn't held her back in her career, which takes her all over the developing world doing human rights law. (I don't think she would allow it to hold her back.)

        I understand those who have visible tattoos (on their necks or knuckles or etc.) to be expressing that they have no intention of joining the conventional working world. Instead they've committed to living their lives as artists or activists or surfers or carnies or whatever their bag is. They're not bloody likely to apply for a job at Best Buy wearing a royal blue polo shirt and selling toner cartridges, so it's a non-issue.

        I recently saw a quote fly by on Facebook: "The only difference between people with tattoos and people without tattoos is that people with tattoos don't care if you have tattoos or not."



        --- In prbytes@yahoogroups.com, "Ned Barnett" <ned@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, but not in a favorable way, and that's my point.
        >
        > It's actually part of a larger point. Lifestyle choices among the young
        > which will make their later lives more difficult.
        >
        > Tattoos for instance. I'm not talking about the cute butterfly at the base
        > of the spine that will never be seen except by "intimate" friends, but the
        > massive, garish tattoos that are in places where they cannot help but be
        > seen.
        >
        > F'instnce, the other day in the line at the 7/11, I saw a young guy with a
        > word tattooed on each elbow - F**K and YOU ... now, for any business where
        > short-sleeve shirts are part of the uniform, he's unemployable.
        >
        > I'm sure you've seen others with job-killing tattoos - marks on the necks
        > and heads that can't be hidden, marks on the hands and wrists (ditto). They
        > aren't thinking (or they have no expectation of having a decent job). It's
        > like those "digital IQ" photos I mentioned, but on steroids.
        >
        > Yes, society's going to hell in a handbasket, but I wonder if some of these
        > young people have thought about the consequences of voluntarily jumping in
        > that basket and pushing themselves off the cliff?
        >
      • Rich
        I don t think I disagree with Duncan s reply - it does pay to know your audience and this may be the case here, somewhat. However, the rather outrageous nature
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 20, 2012
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          I don't think I disagree with Duncan's reply - it does pay to know your audience
          and this may be the case here, somewhat. However, the rather outrageous nature
          of this particular branding will most likely turn some people off even within
          the target market. In a way, it's similar to stand-up comedy - throw a few curse
          words in and you get some easy laughs. The real question is could they find a
          better way to appeal to their particular market without relying on taking the
          easy way out. I mean, exactly how creative is it to use a picture of someone
          flipping the bird on packaging? From my perspective, it's not even courageous.
          It's more of a "Hey, screw it," philosophy. Additionally, how effective will the
          message be once the shock value has worn off?

          Back in the '80s, there was a story in TIME magazine about how the overuse of
          curse words in society was diminishing their value, so to speak. Additionally, I
          would ask if you think we, those who assist companies in marketing and branding,
          have any social responsibility?





          ________________________________
          From: Duncan Matheson <duncan@...>
          To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, July 19, 2012 9:21:04 PM
          Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
          PR/Marketing business


          I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and I
          suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
          portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
          portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement - for
          me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting different
          people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you are looking at
          it through the lens of old folks - people who want the language to be
          respectable and the images to be something YOU are comfortable with. Point is,
          you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying to attract or impress you or I
          should say us because I'm an old guy too. And given that, who are we to suggest
          he isn't bang on in regards to what he is going after.


          Duncan Matheson
          BissettMatheson Communications
          506-457-1627(O)
          506-447-2388(mobile)
          duncan@...
          Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
          www.bissettmatheson.com

          On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:

          > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
          > Edna
          >
          > Edna Kaplan
          > President | KOGS Communication LLC
          > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
          > __________________________________________________________
          > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
          >
          >
          >
          > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
          >
          > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
          > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
          >
          > Blessings,
          > Jube Dankworth
          > Net Media Consultants
          > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
          > 817-400-2692
          >
          > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
          > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
          > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
          >
          > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
          >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light, and
          >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However, catch
          >a
          >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
          >programming,
          >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
          >>apologize
          >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients, himself
          >and
          >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...>
          >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com; prbytes@yahoogroups.com;
          >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com; SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
          >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
          >> PR/Marketing business
          >>
          >>
          >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have incredibly
          >> bad judgment.
          >>
          >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
          >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of himself),
          >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
          >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
          >>
          >> Check it out, check it outers . http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
          >>
          >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
          >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I quickly
          >> unfriended him.
          >>
          >> Jeeze Louise .
          >>
          >> Ned Barnett, APR
          >>
          >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
          >>
          >> Barnett Marketing Communications
          >>
          >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
          >>
          >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
          >>
          >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
          >>
          >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
          >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
          >>
          >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • Ned Barnett
          Duncan I think you re missing the point, based on your own well thought-out arguments here. The point you re missing - this guy sent this material to me, as a
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 20, 2012
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            Duncan


            I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
            arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
            me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is what
            he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
            by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
            information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
            others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
            personal level.


            Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
            meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
            metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in a
            more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
            instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much as
            Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
            who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
            especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
            dress.



            The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
            himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking drugged
            or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird" at
            the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
            known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no reason
            - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding with
            me).



            And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.



            Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
            where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
            his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
            despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
            rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.



            I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
            fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which shows
            just one more level of bad judgment.



            My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
            McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
            registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
            most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
            "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
            However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
            limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
            or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake, don't
            put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates can
            find you.



            Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
            personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
            I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the bottom
            up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
            But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
            scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a part
            of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
            mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.


            Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
            Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
            soon.


            Ned



            Ned Barnett, APR

            Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

            Barnett Marketing Communications

            420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

            702-561-1167 - cell/text

            <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

            <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
            http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



            05-6-16 BMC Logo



            From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Duncan Matheson
            Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
            To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
            PR/Marketing business





            I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and
            I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
            portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
            portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement -
            for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
            different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
            are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
            language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
            comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying
            to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And
            given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is
            going after.

            Duncan Matheson
            BissettMatheson Communications
            506-457-1627(O)
            506-447-2388(mobile)
            duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
            Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
            www.bissettmatheson.com

            On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:

            > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
            > Edna
            >
            > Edna Kaplan
            > President | KOGS Communication LLC
            > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
            > __________________________________________________________
            > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
            >
            >
            >
            > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
            >
            > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
            > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
            >
            > Blessings,
            > Jube Dankworth
            > Net Media Consultants
            > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
            > 817-400-2692
            >
            > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
            > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
            > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
            >
            > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
            >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light,
            and
            >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
            catch a
            >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
            programming,
            >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
            apologize
            >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
            himself and
            >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ________________________________
            >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@... <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
            >
            >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
            SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>

            >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
            >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
            >> PR/Marketing business
            >>
            >>
            >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
            incredibly
            >> bad judgment.
            >>
            >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
            >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
            himself),
            >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
            >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
            >>
            >> Check it out, check it outers .
            http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
            <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
            >>
            >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
            >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
            quickly
            >> unfriended him.
            >>
            >> Jeeze Louise .
            >>
            >> Ned Barnett, APR
            >>
            >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
            >>
            >> Barnett Marketing Communications
            >>
            >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
            >>
            >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
            >>
            >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
            @nedbarnett
            >>
            >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
            >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
            >>
            >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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          • Ned Barnett
            A few more observations on this subject. I have three sons - two in their 20s, one in his early-mid 30s. None of them have obvious tattoos (I haven t pried
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 20, 2012
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              A few more observations on this subject.


              I have three sons - two in their 20s, one in his early-mid 30s. None of
              them have obvious tattoos (I haven't pried about possible intimate tattoos -
              none of my damned business <g>).


              One of them is a public school teacher (4th grade) in an elementary school
              in rural Arkansas. Imagine him applying for that job while festooned with
              garish and very public tattoos .



              One of them most recently worked as an executive in security for Target
              stores in Little Rock. Picture that image if you will. He's looking to
              become a retail entrepreneur, and to do that successfully, he'll have to
              interface with bankers, and probably folks from SCORE, and others who can
              help advance his business. So again, picture him sheep-dipped with garish
              and possibly offensive tattoos . (as an aside, he used to be a member of the
              Society for Creative Anachronism and he is a motorcycle rider - he very
              easily could have fallen into a tattoo lifestyle, but fortunately he had too
              much good sense).



              My eldest son is a college professor, and presumably he has a bit of leeway,
              especially since he teaches in the performing arts. But for his "publish or
              perish" requirement (and for the secondary income necessary for his wife to
              stay home and raise my grandkids), he has to design theatrical lighting for
              shows throughout the Southeast, at places like the High Museum of Art
              theater in Atlanta, the Tennessee Performing Arts Center (TPAC) and other
              theaters with wealthy and conservative patrons. While I'm sure some of the
              cast-and-crew of theatrical productions are tattooed up and it doesn't
              matter, he deals with both management and patrons. When he goes on those
              calls, he leaves his ear-ring home and (thankfully) he had better sense than
              to get public tattoos.



              So when I offer my opinions here, it's not just as a
              prejudiced-against-tattoos old codger, but also as someone who, as a dad of
              kids in "that" age group, I have been able to see how NOT having tattoos in
              public locations has helped all my kids get and keep decent jobs.



              And now, it's burger time.



              Ned



              Ned Barnett, APR

              Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

              Barnett Marketing Communications

              420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

              702-561-1167 - cell/text

              <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

              <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



              05-6-16 BMC Logo



              From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Ned Barnett
              Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:37 PM
              To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              PR/Marketing business





              Duncan

              I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
              arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
              me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is what
              he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
              by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
              information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
              others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
              personal level.

              Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
              meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
              metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in a
              more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
              instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much as
              Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
              who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
              especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
              dress.

              The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
              himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking drugged
              or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird" at
              the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
              known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no reason
              - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding with
              me).

              And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.

              Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
              where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
              his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
              despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
              rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.

              I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
              fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which shows
              just one more level of bad judgment.

              My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
              McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
              registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
              most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
              "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
              However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
              limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
              or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake, don't
              put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates can
              find you.

              Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
              personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
              I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the bottom
              up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
              But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
              scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a part
              of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
              mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.

              Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
              Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
              soon.

              Ned

              Ned Barnett, APR

              Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

              Barnett Marketing Communications

              420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

              702-561-1167 - cell/text

              <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

              <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/

              05-6-16 BMC Logo

              From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf Of
              Duncan Matheson
              Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
              To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              PR/Marketing business

              I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and
              I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
              portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
              portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement -
              for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
              different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
              are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
              language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
              comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying
              to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And
              given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is
              going after.

              Duncan Matheson
              BissettMatheson Communications
              506-457-1627(O)
              506-447-2388(mobile)
              duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
              <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
              Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
              www.bissettmatheson.com

              On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:

              > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
              > Edna
              >
              > Edna Kaplan
              > President | KOGS Communication LLC
              > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
              > __________________________________________________________
              > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
              >
              >
              >
              > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
              >
              > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
              > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
              >
              > Blessings,
              > Jube Dankworth
              > Net Media Consultants
              > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
              > 817-400-2692
              >
              > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
              > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
              > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
              >
              > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
              >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light,
              and
              >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
              catch a
              >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
              programming,
              >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
              apologize
              >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
              himself and
              >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ________________________________
              >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@... <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
              <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
              >
              >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
              SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>

              >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
              >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
              >> PR/Marketing business
              >>
              >>
              >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
              incredibly
              >> bad judgment.
              >>
              >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
              >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
              himself),
              >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
              >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
              >>
              >> Check it out, check it outers .
              http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
              <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
              <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
              >>
              >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
              >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
              quickly
              >> unfriended him.
              >>
              >> Jeeze Louise .
              >>
              >> Ned Barnett, APR
              >>
              >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
              >>
              >> Barnett Marketing Communications
              >>
              >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
              >>
              >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
              >>
              >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
              @nedbarnett
              >>
              >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
              >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
              >>
              >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Duncan Matheson
              Hi Ned, OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target market - unless I missed it you didn t mention that he reached out to you for
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 20, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Ned,

                OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent job".

                Duncan
                Duncan Matheson
                BissettMatheson Communications
                506-457-1627(O)
                506-447-2388(mobile)
                duncan@...
                Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                www.bissettmatheson.com


                On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

                > Duncan
                >
                > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is what
                > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
                > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                > personal level.
                >
                > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in a
                > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much as
                > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                > dress.
                >
                > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking drugged
                > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird" at
                > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no reason
                > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding with
                > me).
                >
                > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                >
                > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                >
                > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which shows
                > just one more level of bad judgment.
                >
                > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
                > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
                > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake, don't
                > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates can
                > find you.
                >
                > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
                > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the bottom
                > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
                > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a part
                > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                >
                > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                > soon.
                >
                > Ned
                >
                > Ned Barnett, APR
                >
                > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                >
                > Barnett Marketing Communications
                >
                > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                >
                > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                >
                > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                >
                > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                >
                > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                >
                > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > Duncan Matheson
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                > PR/Marketing business
                >
                > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience, and
                > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want to
                > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I wouldn't
                > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement -
                > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
                > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't trying
                > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too. And
                > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he is
                > going after.
                >
                > Duncan Matheson
                > BissettMatheson Communications
                > 506-457-1627(O)
                > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                > www.bissettmatheson.com
                >
                > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                >
                > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                > > Edna
                > >
                > > Edna Kaplan
                > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
                > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                > > __________________________________________________________
                > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                > >
                > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                > >
                > > Blessings,
                > > Jube Dankworth
                > > Net Media Consultants
                > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                > > 817-400-2692
                > >
                > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                > >
                > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this light,
                > and
                > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                > catch a
                > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                > programming,
                > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                > apologize
                > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                > himself and
                > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> ________________________________
                > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@... <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                > >
                > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                > >> PR/Marketing business
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                > incredibly
                > >> bad judgment.
                > >>
                > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                > himself),
                > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                > >>
                > >> Check it out, check it outers .
                > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                > >>
                > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                > quickly
                > >> unfriended him.
                > >>
                > >> Jeeze Louise .
                > >>
                > >> Ned Barnett, APR
                > >>
                > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                > >>
                > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                > >>
                > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                > >>
                > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                > >>
                > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                > @nedbarnett
                > >>
                > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                > >>
                > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> ------------------------------------
                > >>
                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ned Barnett
                Duncan There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for, we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 20, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Duncan


                  There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
                  we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
                  came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
                  just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
                  actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
                  exceptions.



                  And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
                  his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
                  contact him.



                  And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
                  obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.


                  But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
                  that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
                  still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
                  3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.


                  Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
                  exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
                  this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
                  hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
                  will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
                  exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
                  it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.



                  So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
                  teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
                  about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
                  all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
                  uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
                  job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
                  make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
                  prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
                  those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
                  feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
                  tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
                  blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
                  are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
                  forehead.


                  Or so it seems to me.


                  Ned



                  Ned Barnett, APR

                  Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

                  Barnett Marketing Communications

                  420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

                  702-561-1167 - cell/text

                  <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

                  <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                  http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



                  05-6-16 BMC Logo



                  From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Duncan Matheson
                  Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
                  To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                  PR/Marketing business





                  Hi Ned,

                  OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
                  market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
                  for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
                  markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
                  may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
                  appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
                  no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
                  is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
                  gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
                  website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
                  probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
                  did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
                  the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
                  included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
                  company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
                  money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
                  add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
                  destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
                  just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
                  the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
                  interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
                  considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
                  job".

                  Duncan
                  Duncan Matheson
                  BissettMatheson Communications
                  506-457-1627(O)
                  506-447-2388(mobile)
                  duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                  Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                  www.bissettmatheson.com

                  On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

                  > Duncan
                  >
                  > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                  > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                  > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
                  what
                  > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
                  > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                  > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                  > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                  > personal level.
                  >
                  > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                  > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                  > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
                  a
                  > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                  > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
                  as
                  > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                  > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                  > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                  > dress.
                  >
                  > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                  > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
                  drugged
                  > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
                  at
                  > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                  > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
                  reason
                  > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
                  with
                  > me).
                  >
                  > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                  >
                  > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                  > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                  > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                  > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                  > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                  >
                  > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                  > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
                  shows
                  > just one more level of bad judgment.
                  >
                  > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                  > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                  > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                  > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                  > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                  > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
                  > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
                  > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
                  don't
                  > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
                  can
                  > find you.
                  >
                  > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
                  > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                  > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
                  bottom
                  > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                  > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
                  > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
                  part
                  > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                  > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                  >
                  > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                  > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                  > soon.
                  >
                  > Ned
                  >
                  > Ned Barnett, APR
                  >
                  > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                  >
                  > Barnett Marketing Communications
                  >
                  > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                  >
                  > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                  >
                  > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                  >
                  > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                  > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                  >
                  > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  Behalf Of
                  > Duncan Matheson
                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                  > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                  > PR/Marketing business
                  >
                  > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
                  and
                  > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
                  to
                  > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
                  wouldn't
                  > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
                  -
                  > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                  > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
                  > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                  > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                  > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
                  trying
                  > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
                  And
                  > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
                  is
                  > going after.
                  >
                  > Duncan Matheson
                  > BissettMatheson Communications
                  > 506-457-1627(O)
                  > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                  > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                  <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                  > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                  > www.bissettmatheson.com
                  >
                  > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                  >
                  > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                  > > Edna
                  > >
                  > > Edna Kaplan
                  > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
                  > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                  > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                  > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                  > >
                  > > Blessings,
                  > > Jube Dankworth
                  > > Net Media Consultants
                  > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                  > > 817-400-2692
                  > >
                  > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                  > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                  > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                  > >
                  > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                  > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
                  light,
                  > and
                  > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                  > catch a
                  > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                  > programming,
                  > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                  > apologize
                  > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                  > himself and
                  > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> ________________________________
                  > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
                  <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                  > >
                  > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                  > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                  > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                  > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                  > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                  > >> PR/Marketing business
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                  > incredibly
                  > >> bad judgment.
                  > >>
                  > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                  > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                  > himself),
                  > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                  > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                  > >>
                  > >> Check it out, check it outers .
                  > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                  <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                  > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                  > >>
                  > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                  > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                  > quickly
                  > >> unfriended him.
                  > >>
                  > >> Jeeze Louise .
                  > >>
                  > >> Ned Barnett, APR
                  > >>
                  > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                  > >>
                  > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                  > >>
                  > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                  > >>
                  > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                  > >>
                  > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                  > @nedbarnett
                  > >>
                  > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                  > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                  > >>
                  > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> ------------------------------------
                  > >>
                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • desmondekeh@yahoo.com
                  Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don t know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 21, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think. Desmond.
                    Sent from my BlackBerry� smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...>
                    Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
                    To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com>
                    Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business

                    Duncan


                    There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
                    we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
                    came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
                    just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
                    actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
                    exceptions.



                    And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
                    his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
                    contact him.



                    And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
                    obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.


                    But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
                    that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
                    still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
                    3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.


                    Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
                    exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
                    this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
                    hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
                    will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
                    exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
                    it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.



                    So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
                    teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
                    about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
                    all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
                    uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
                    job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
                    make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
                    prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
                    those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
                    feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
                    tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
                    blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
                    are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
                    forehead.


                    Or so it seems to me.


                    Ned



                    Ned Barnett, APR

                    Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

                    Barnett Marketing Communications

                    420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

                    702-561-1167 - cell/text

                    <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

                    <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                    http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



                    05-6-16 BMC Logo



                    From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Duncan Matheson
                    Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
                    To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                    PR/Marketing business





                    Hi Ned,

                    OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
                    market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
                    for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
                    markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
                    may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
                    appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
                    no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
                    is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
                    gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
                    website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
                    probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
                    did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
                    the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
                    included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
                    company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
                    money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
                    add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
                    destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
                    just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
                    the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
                    interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
                    considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
                    job".

                    Duncan
                    Duncan Matheson
                    BissettMatheson Communications
                    506-457-1627(O)
                    506-447-2388(mobile)
                    duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                    Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                    www.bissettmatheson.com

                    On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:

                    > Duncan
                    >
                    > I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                    > arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                    > me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
                    what
                    > he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
                    > by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                    > information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                    > others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                    > personal level.
                    >
                    > Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                    > meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                    > metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
                    a
                    > more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                    > instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
                    as
                    > Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                    > who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                    > especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                    > dress.
                    >
                    > The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                    > himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
                    drugged
                    > or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
                    at
                    > the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                    > known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
                    reason
                    > - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
                    with
                    > me).
                    >
                    > And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                    >
                    > Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                    > where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                    > his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                    > despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                    > rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                    >
                    > I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                    > fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
                    shows
                    > just one more level of bad judgment.
                    >
                    > My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                    > McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                    > registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                    > most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                    > "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                    > However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
                    > limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
                    > or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
                    don't
                    > put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
                    can
                    > find you.
                    >
                    > Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
                    > personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                    > I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
                    bottom
                    > up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                    > But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
                    > scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
                    part
                    > of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                    > mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                    >
                    > Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                    > Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                    > soon.
                    >
                    > Ned
                    >
                    > Ned Barnett, APR
                    >
                    > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                    >
                    > Barnett Marketing Communications
                    >
                    > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                    >
                    > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                    >
                    > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                    >
                    > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                    > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                    >
                    > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                    >
                    > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                    Behalf Of
                    > Duncan Matheson
                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                    > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                    > PR/Marketing business
                    >
                    > I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
                    and
                    > I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
                    to
                    > portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
                    wouldn't
                    > portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
                    -
                    > for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                    > different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
                    > are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                    > language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                    > comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
                    trying
                    > to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
                    And
                    > given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
                    is
                    > going after.
                    >
                    > Duncan Matheson
                    > BissettMatheson Communications
                    > 506-457-1627(O)
                    > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                    > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                    <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                    > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                    > www.bissettmatheson.com
                    >
                    > On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                    >
                    > > Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                    > > Edna
                    > >
                    > > Edna Kaplan
                    > > President | KOGS Communication LLC
                    > > 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                    > > __________________________________________________________
                    > > 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                    > > I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                    > >
                    > > Blessings,
                    > > Jube Dankworth
                    > > Net Media Consultants
                    > > http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                    > > 817-400-2692
                    > >
                    > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                    > > http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                    > > http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                    > >
                    > > On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                    > >> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
                    light,
                    > and
                    > >> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                    > catch a
                    > >> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                    > programming,
                    > >> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                    > apologize
                    > >> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                    > himself and
                    > >> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ________________________________
                    > >> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
                    <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                    > >
                    > >> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                    > prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                    > >> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                    > SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > >> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                    > >> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                    > >> PR/Marketing business
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                    > incredibly
                    > >> bad judgment.
                    > >>
                    > >> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                    > >> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                    > himself),
                    > >> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                    > >> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                    > >>
                    > >> Check it out, check it outers .
                    > http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                    <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                    > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                    > >>
                    > >> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                    > >> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                    > quickly
                    > >> unfriended him.
                    > >>
                    > >> Jeeze Louise .
                    > >>
                    > >> Ned Barnett, APR
                    > >>
                    > >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                    > >>
                    > >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                    > >>
                    > >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                    > >>
                    > >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                    > >>
                    > >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                    > @nedbarnett
                    > >>
                    > >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                    > >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                    > >>
                    > >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

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                  • Jube
                    Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle. Then in the 80s we had the yuppies.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 21, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular
                      middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle.

                      Then in the 80s we had the yuppies. Who were the yuppies? The ones who
                      stay in college, who were able to shave and cut their hair and become
                      the responsible adults (except at Chilis), the ones may have used drugs
                      but were not addicted.

                      The folks who caught a major disease from their lifestyle choices, who
                      became addicted, or who left college to expand their minds, the majority
                      of these folks were not ready for the next change in life and lifestyle.

                      Taste if you must, but do not jump in with both feet.

                      Blessings,
                      Jube Dankworth
                      Net Media Consultants
                      http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                      817-400-2692

                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                      http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                      http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants

                      On 7/21/2012 2:25 AM, desmondekeh@... wrote:
                      > Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think. Desmond.
                      >
                      > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...>
                      >
                      > Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
                      >
                      > To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      > Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own PR/Marketing business
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Duncan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked for,
                      >
                      > we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever clients
                      >
                      > came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
                      >
                      > just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and might
                      >
                      > actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
                      >
                      > exceptions.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions -
                      >
                      > his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
                      >
                      > contact him.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is so
                      >
                      > obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
                      >
                      > that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100 companies
                      >
                      > still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to the
                      >
                      > 3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
                      >
                      > exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
                      >
                      > this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become HR
                      >
                      > hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
                      >
                      > will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
                      >
                      > exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
                      >
                      > it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
                      >
                      > teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
                      >
                      > about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
                      >
                      > all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
                      >
                      > uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
                      >
                      > job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
                      >
                      > make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
                      >
                      > prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
                      >
                      > those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
                      >
                      > feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
                      >
                      > tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
                      >
                      > blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find them
                      >
                      > are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
                      >
                      > forehead.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Or so it seems to me.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ned
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ned Barnett, APR
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Barnett Marketing Communications
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                      >
                      > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      >
                      > Duncan Matheson
                      >
                      > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
                      >
                      > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                      >
                      > PR/Marketing business
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Ned,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
                      >
                      > market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
                      >
                      > for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
                      >
                      > markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you, it
                      >
                      > may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
                      >
                      > appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I have
                      >
                      > no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what he
                      >
                      > is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
                      >
                      > gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
                      >
                      > website development company in our city has a creative team who's look would
                      >
                      > probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do. They
                      >
                      > did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually in
                      >
                      > the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
                      >
                      > included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of the
                      >
                      > company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
                      >
                      > money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
                      >
                      > add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
                      >
                      > destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well, you're
                      >
                      > just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any of
                      >
                      > the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
                      >
                      > interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
                      >
                      > considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
                      >
                      > job".
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Duncan
                      >
                      > Duncan Matheson
                      >
                      > BissettMatheson Communications
                      >
                      > 506-457-1627(O)
                      >
                      > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                      >
                      > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                      >
                      > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                      >
                      > www.bissettmatheson.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> Duncan
                      >> I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                      >> arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                      >> me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
                      > what
                      >
                      >> he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put off
                      >> by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                      >> information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                      >> others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                      >> personal level.
                      >> Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                      >> meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                      >> metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people in
                      > a
                      >
                      >> more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                      >> instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
                      > as
                      >
                      >> Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                      >> who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                      >> especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                      >> dress.
                      >> The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                      >> himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
                      > drugged
                      >
                      >> or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
                      > at
                      >
                      >> the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                      >> known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
                      > reason
                      >
                      >> - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
                      > with
                      >
                      >> me).
                      >> And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                      >> Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                      >> where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                      >> his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                      >> despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                      >> rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                      >> I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                      >> fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
                      > shows
                      >
                      >> just one more level of bad judgment.
                      >> My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                      >> McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                      >> registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                      >> most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                      >> "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                      >> However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream culture,
                      >> limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of slacks
                      >> or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
                      > don't
                      >
                      >> put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
                      > can
                      >
                      >> find you.
                      >> Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from now,
                      >> personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                      >> I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
                      > bottom
                      >
                      >> up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                      >> But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you wouldn't
                      >> scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
                      > part
                      >
                      >> of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                      >> mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                      >> Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                      >> Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                      >> soon.
                      >> Ned
                      >> Ned Barnett, APR
                      >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                      >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                      >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                      >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                      >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                      >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                      >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                      >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                      >> From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                      >
                      > Behalf Of
                      >
                      >> Duncan Matheson
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                      >> To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                      >> PR/Marketing business
                      >> I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
                      > and
                      >
                      >> I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
                      > to
                      >
                      >> portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
                      > wouldn't
                      >
                      >> portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
                      > -
                      >
                      >> for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                      >> different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because you
                      >> are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                      >> language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                      >> comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
                      > trying
                      >
                      >> to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
                      > And
                      >
                      >> given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
                      > is
                      >
                      >> going after.
                      >> Duncan Matheson
                      >> BissettMatheson Communications
                      >> 506-457-1627(O)
                      >> 506-447-2388(mobile)
                      >> duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                      > <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                      >
                      >> Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                      >> www.bissettmatheson.com
                      >> On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                      >>> Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                      >>> Edna
                      >>> Edna Kaplan
                      >>> President | KOGS Communication LLC
                      >>> 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                      >>> __________________________________________________________
                      >>> 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                      >>> On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                      >>> Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                      >>> I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                      >>> Blessings,
                      >>> Jube Dankworth
                      >>> Net Media Consultants
                      >>> http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                      >>> 817-400-2692
                      >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                      >>> http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                      >>> http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                      >>> On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                      >>>> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
                      > light,
                      >
                      >> and
                      >>>> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                      >> catch a
                      >>>> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                      >> programming,
                      >>>> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                      >> apologize
                      >>>> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                      >> himself and
                      >>>> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                      >>>> ________________________________
                      >>>> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
                      > <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                      >
                      >>>> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                      >
                      >> prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                      >
                      >>>> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                      >
                      >> SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      >>>> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                      >>>> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                      >>>> PR/Marketing business
                      >>>> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                      >> incredibly
                      >>>> bad judgment.
                      >>>> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                      >>>> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                      >> himself),
                      >>>> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                      >>>> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                      >>>> Check it out, check it outers .
                      >> http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                      > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                      >
                      >> <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                      >>>> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                      >>>> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                      >> quickly
                      >>>> unfriended him.
                      >>>> Jeeze Louise .
                      >>>> Ned Barnett, APR
                      >>>> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                      >>>> Barnett Marketing Communications
                      >>>> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                      >>>> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                      >>>> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                      >> @nedbarnett
                      >>>> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                      >>>> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                      >>>> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ned Barnett
                      Sound advice indeed. I remember back in my college hippie and anti-war days (being anti-war after seeking and gaining an Annapolis appointment - and, after
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 21, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sound advice indeed.


                        I remember back in my college "hippie" and "anti-war" days (being anti-war
                        after seeking and gaining an Annapolis appointment - and, after failing my
                        eye exam, volunteering for ROTC ought to tell you something about the
                        passion of the "movement," at least in the Deep South in the late 60s and
                        early 70s) - and there were literally some people who felt being in the
                        counter-culture movement would be a life-long experience, as if they could
                        support themselves with it.


                        I saw it as "street theater" - something fun to do between (or instead of)
                        classes, but not a lifestyle choice by any means. The only thing I was
                        serious about in college, other than PBR and getting married (both big
                        mistakes) was supporting the civil rights movement.



                        I found amazing those who were so intensely serious about the "movement" and
                        who thought it would be their whole lives. When they finally grew up, they
                        had to start over, not always the easiest thing to do, especially if you
                        start a family along the way. Lots of folks I see now, in their late 50s or
                        into their 60s, who have manual-labor jobs (or who became chronic over-aged
                        stoners), were "in the movement" in college, and didn't realize that it
                        wasn't a life-long lifestyle choice.



                        My idea of "the movement" was shaped by the Kent State "riots" at the
                        University of Georgia. We sat around the quadrangle, drinking beer and
                        chatting. Then the Channel 2 Atlanta TV truck showed up, and everybody went
                        nuts for the camera - jumping around like crazy folks, waving signs - some
                        guy (who was in ROTC) raised a Viet Cong flag over the Admin building, not
                        for any political reason but just for the hell of it (and when his parents
                        found out, yanked him out of school three weeks before graduation). When
                        the TV crews shut down, everything calmed down instantly. No damage, but no
                        classes. So with some friends, I grabbed some beer and a bucket of the
                        Colonel's best, and we went to "hole in the wall" (a damaged dam in the
                        Oconee River) and went swimming/had a picnic. That, to me, was "the
                        movement."



                        I organized several "protests" - we seized the Confederate War Memorial, for
                        instance (ah, the irony) - but my favorite was when I burned my draft card
                        in front of 400 or so students. Here, as Paul Harvey used to say, is "the
                        rest of the story." I'd gotten a letter from my draft board, with a new
                        draft card, saying I'd been reclassified and needed to carry the new card
                        and destroy the old card - and that this mandate to destroy the old card was
                        Federal law - I could be in big trouble if I didn't destroy it. So I
                        printed up some flyers, posted them around campus, and at 2 p.m. on a
                        Tuesday, with the letter from my draft board and my new draft card firmly
                        ensconced in the hip pocket of my Levis, I then burned my draft card, just
                        as I'd been instructed.



                        And that kind of skim-the-surface-but-don't-take-it-seriously attitude is
                        the same Jube is counseling here. People who want a tattoo should put it
                        somewhere that normal street clothes will hide, to avoid any future
                        blow-back. There's no need to turn yourself into a walking billboard.



                        My favorite is the folks who put Chinese or Japanese ideograms on their
                        bodies, having no idea what they say or mean (I've heard that some are
                        shopping lists or the like). If this is an IQ test, they flunk. I laugh.



                        Ned



                        Ned Barnett, APR

                        Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association

                        Barnett Marketing Communications

                        420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110

                        702-561-1167 - cell/text

                        <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett

                        <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                        http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/



                        05-6-16 BMC Logo



                        From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Jube
                        Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 8:56 AM
                        To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                        PR/Marketing business





                        Going back a generation, I remember a lot of hippies who were regular
                        middle class kids who jumped into the new lifestyle.

                        Then in the 80s we had the yuppies. Who were the yuppies? The ones who
                        stay in college, who were able to shave and cut their hair and become
                        the responsible adults (except at Chilis), the ones may have used drugs
                        but were not addicted.

                        The folks who caught a major disease from their lifestyle choices, who
                        became addicted, or who left college to expand their minds, the majority
                        of these folks were not ready for the next change in life and lifestyle.

                        Taste if you must, but do not jump in with both feet.

                        Blessings,
                        Jube Dankworth
                        Net Media Consultants
                        http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                        817-400-2692

                        http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                        http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                        http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants

                        On 7/21/2012 2:25 AM, desmondekeh@... <mailto:desmondekeh%40yahoo.com>
                        wrote:
                        > Ned, I think you have a point here. The struggle between conservatism and
                        change is age long. I don't know when it will be resolved. One thing I seem
                        to have observed over the years is that while radicalism and change
                        especially of lifestyle and socio-political, even cultural ideologies keep
                        changing dialectically, there is a core in conservatism that seems always to
                        remain unchanged. I just think that this tattoo thing will also pass away. I
                        suggest the middle ground - moderate - especially for people who aspire to
                        leadership someday. Deon, please try and be on top of your son. I don't
                        condemn people's lifestyle today, (who am I to do so) my fear however is
                        that today's lifestyle might change tomorrow and jeopardize ones chances of
                        a good opportunity tomorrow. I might be wrong but that's just what I think.
                        Desmond.
                        >
                        > Sent from my BlackBerryR smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > From: "Ned Barnett" <ned@...
                        <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> >
                        >
                        > Sender: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:46:33
                        >
                        > To: <prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> >
                        >
                        > Reply-To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > Subject: RE: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                        PR/Marketing business
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Duncan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There have always been certain exceptions. The last ad agency I worked
                        for,
                        >
                        > we kept our graphics design people locked on the 3rd floor whenever
                        clients
                        >
                        > came by - they were creative, but not socially acceptable. I content that,
                        >
                        > just as Deon's son the heavy-metal rocker can function with tats (and
                        might
                        >
                        > actually score a movie, or perform a commercial jingle) they are the rare
                        >
                        > exceptions.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > And perhaps this guy who contacted me is another of those rare exceptions
                        -
                        >
                        > his niche is so narrow that if I decided I needed that niche, I might
                        >
                        > contact him.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > And perhaps I was mistaken in generalizing from this example, since he is
                        so
                        >
                        > obviously on the fringe of marketing communications.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > But these strike me as the exception that proved the rule - you even noted
                        >
                        > that your website guys who create remarkable sites for Fortune 100
                        companies
                        >
                        > still would be kept in the closet, or locked in the pantry, or exiled to
                        the
                        >
                        > 3rd Floor, while the adults in the conference room did business.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But by focusing on those
                        >
                        > exceptions, I'm afraid you and Deon and a few others are losing sight of
                        >
                        > this rule. Maybe 30 years from now, tattoo-bedecked slackers will become
                        HR
                        >
                        > hiring executives and many more folks with garish and always-visible tats
                        >
                        > will be hired. Maybe. But it's not happening now (except in those rare
                        >
                        > exception areas, like heavy metal or graphic design or Harley repair), and
                        >
                        > it's not likely to happen for a long time to come.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So I maintain, and to me these exceptions prove it, that people in their
                        >
                        > teens and 20s and 30s should be carefully counseled by grown-ups who care
                        >
                        > about them that the wrong tattoos in the wrong places on their bodies will
                        >
                        > all but kill their chances for getting good jobs. And in our current
                        >
                        > uber-long-time no-jobs recession, anything that makes it harder to find a
                        >
                        > job or a client has to be considered VERY carefully. If you're willing to
                        >
                        > make the sacrifice for the cause, so be it (I know I'm probably losing
                        >
                        > prospective clients by blogging on conservative issues, even though I keep
                        >
                        > those blogs away from my business site). But to that, two points. One, I
                        >
                        > feel strongly enough about the issue to take that risk; and two, unlike
                        >
                        > tattoos or main Facebook pages, conservative (or liberal, or any "cause")
                        >
                        > blogs segregated to sites where only true believers are likely to find
                        them
                        >
                        > are far different from that MAROON (spell it right!) tattoo on your
                        >
                        > forehead.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Or so it seems to me.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Ned
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Ned Barnett, APR
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Barnett Marketing Communications
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter @nedbarnett
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                        >
                        > http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                        Behalf Of
                        >
                        > Duncan Matheson
                        >
                        > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:13 PM
                        >
                        > To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                        >
                        > PR/Marketing business
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Ned,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > OK, Obviously it was a mistake for him to see you as part of his target
                        >
                        > market - unless I missed it you didn't mention that he reached out to you
                        >
                        > for some type of proposed business relationship. But my point is that
                        >
                        > markets are different, and while this guy's style was a turn off to you,
                        it
                        >
                        > may be just the opposite for the market he's trying to appeal to. I
                        >
                        > appreciate this statement is inconsistent with him pitching you, and I
                        have
                        >
                        > no idea what that's about, but I also question your suggestion that what
                        he
                        >
                        > is - tats and edgy in his facebook presentation, positions him persona non
                        >
                        > gratis for any kind of mainstream job. For example the most successful
                        >
                        > website development company in our city has a creative team who's look
                        would
                        >
                        > probably scare you away. But they are very, very good at what they do.
                        They
                        >
                        > did my website as a favour, but the balance of their clients are actually
                        in
                        >
                        > the U.S. - Fortune 100 companies - General Motors, Microsoft, Disney
                        >
                        > included. Mind you the guys I am thinking off are not the public face of
                        the
                        >
                        > company, but they are the creative force, and they are making damn good
                        >
                        > money for doing damn good work - and in the mainstream world I hasten to
                        >
                        > add. So Ned, when you suggest someone comfortable in that persona is
                        >
                        > destined to live life on the fringes and out of the mainstream, well,
                        you're
                        >
                        > just plain wrong. Now not totally - these guys won't be joining in on any
                        of
                        >
                        > the Fortune 100 sales calls any time soon, nor do I expect they have any
                        >
                        > interest in doing that, but they are working in the mainstream and with
                        >
                        > considerable success. I think by any measure, it would be called a "decent
                        >
                        > job".
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Duncan
                        >
                        > Duncan Matheson
                        >
                        > BissettMatheson Communications
                        >
                        > 506-457-1627(O)
                        >
                        > 506-447-2388(mobile)
                        >
                        > duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                        <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                        >
                        > Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                        >
                        > www.bissettmatheson.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 2012-07-20, at 7:36 PM, Ned Barnett wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >> Duncan
                        >> I think you're missing the point, based on your own well thought-out
                        >> arguments here. The point you're missing - this guy sent this material to
                        >> me, as a marketing tool. He'd identified me as a prospect, and this is
                        > what
                        >
                        >> he sent. That was not smart marketing. Not only was I offended and put
                        off
                        >> by what he sent, but I was so offended and put off that I shared this
                        >> information (as people do in the world of social networking) with lots of
                        >> others, most of whom are fairly likely to share my views, at least on a
                        >> personal level.
                        >> Proud dad Deon made an impassioned plea to the effect that tattoos are
                        >> meaningful and not offensive - then he revealed that his son is a heavy
                        >> metal rocker, not someone likely to be interfacing with business people
                        in
                        > a
                        >
                        >> more mainstream business environment. If my son was a heavy metal rocker
                        >> instead of a college professor, I think I'd feel (about him) pretty much
                        > as
                        >
                        >> Deon did about his son. But I'd still think that except for those people
                        >> who live in an off-the-mainstream culture, tattoos are a big mistake,
                        >> especially tattoos that don't get covered up in normal every-day business
                        >> dress.
                        >> The guy who triggered this sent me a Facebook link, trying to position
                        >> himself to do business with me - in that were photos of him, looking
                        > drugged
                        >
                        >> or drunk (though he could have been stone-sober) and "shooting the bird"
                        > at
                        >
                        >> the viewer. Do I find this offensive? Hell yes (even though I've been
                        >> known to shoot someone the bird myself - but not random people for no
                        > reason
                        >
                        >> - I usually limit that to crazy drivers who seem hell-bent on colliding
                        > with
                        >
                        >> me).
                        >> And in those photos, he was covered with garish tattoos.
                        >> Would I work with him after this? I frankly can't conceive of a situation
                        >> where he is so damned good - so heads-and-shoulders above anybody else in
                        >> his field - that I'd have to set aside my personal views and hire him
                        >> despite his behavior and appearance. But then I'm not hiring heavy-metal
                        >> rockers, or biker gang members, or whatever-the-hell he is.
                        >> I have no doubt that, for his age and peer group, what he's doing is just
                        >> fine - maybe even smart - but he sought me out and sent me that, which
                        > shows
                        >
                        >> just one more level of bad judgment.
                        >> My advice to young people is simple. If you want to work the grill at
                        >> McDonalds (they won't let heavily and publicly tattooed people man the
                        >> registers or the drive-through windows . not yet anyway), then go for the
                        >> most outrageous, outlandish, offensive tattoos you can imagine. Tattoo
                        >> "Maroon" on your forehead (but be sure to spell it right) if you want.
                        >> However, if you want a good and high-paying job in the mainstream
                        culture,
                        >> limit your tats to areas covered up by a tucked-in shirt, a pair of
                        slacks
                        >> or a skirt, or other normal articles of clothing. And for God's sake,
                        > don't
                        >
                        >> put your party pictures on Facebook where potential business associates
                        > can
                        >
                        >> find you.
                        >> Color me curmudgeon, color me out-of-style, and yes, in 30 years from
                        now,
                        >> personnel directors may indeed be covered with tat's too, but in 30 years
                        >> I'll be 90 and probably watching the roots of daisies grow (from the
                        > bottom
                        >
                        >> up). If you can afford to wait 30 years to become acceptable, go for it.
                        >> But if you'd like to succeed now, show some good judgment. If you
                        wouldn't
                        >> scream it in a crowded church, are you sure you want to tattoo it on a
                        > part
                        >
                        >> of your body that everybody will see? If you'd be embarrassed to let your
                        >> mom see you like that, maybe you should factor that into the decision.
                        >> Or, if you don't give a rodent's posterior, become an ink poster board.
                        >> Just don't be expected to get a decent job in mainstream America any time
                        >> soon.
                        >> Ned
                        >> Ned Barnett, APR
                        >> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                        >> Barnett Marketing Communications
                        >> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                        >> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                        >> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                        @nedbarnett
                        >> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                        >> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                        >> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                        >> From: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > [mailto:prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                        >
                        > Behalf Of
                        >
                        >> Duncan Matheson
                        >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:03 PM
                        >> To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >> Subject: Re: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                        >> PR/Marketing business
                        >> I don't see the problem. Communications is about knowing your audience,
                        > and
                        >
                        >> I suspect this guy's site reflects that. Rich wrote that he wouldn't want
                        > to
                        >
                        >> portray his company in this light and Ned calls it bad judgement. I
                        > wouldn't
                        >
                        >> portray my company in that light either because it would be bad judgement
                        > -
                        >
                        >> for me. But that's because my brand is different and we are targeting
                        >> different people. I suspect that in your being critical, it is because
                        you
                        >> are looking at it through the lens of old folks - people who want the
                        >> language to be respectable and the images to be something YOU are
                        >> comfortable with. Point is, you are missing the point. This guy isn't
                        > trying
                        >
                        >> to attract or impress you or I should say us because I'm an old guy too.
                        > And
                        >
                        >> given that, who are we to suggest he isn't bang on in regards to what he
                        > is
                        >
                        >> going after.
                        >> Duncan Matheson
                        >> BissettMatheson Communications
                        >> 506-457-1627(O)
                        >> 506-447-2388(mobile)
                        >> duncan@... <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                        <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                        > <mailto:duncan%40bissettmatheson.com>
                        >
                        >> Twitter: @DuncanFMatheson
                        >> www.bissettmatheson.com
                        >> On 2012-07-18, at 10:53 AM, Edna Kaplan wrote:
                        >>> Well guys, this boob did somehow catch your attention : ).
                        >>> Edna
                        >>> Edna Kaplan
                        >>> President | KOGS Communication LLC
                        >>> 221 Essex St., Suite 41 | Salem, MA 01970
                        >>> __________________________________________________________
                        >>> 781.639.1910 | mobile: 617.974.8659| @healthPREdna | www.kogspr.com
                        >>> On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Jube wrote:
                        >>> Exactly. I was going to tell Ned--Welcome to the new generation of PR.
                        >>> I've seen this all over the place in certain genres.
                        >>> Blessings,
                        >>> Jube Dankworth
                        >>> Net Media Consultants
                        >>> http://www.NetMediaConsultants.com
                        >>> 817-400-2692
                        >>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/netmedia
                        >>> http://twitter.com/NetMediaConsult
                        >>> http://facebook.com/NetMediaConsultants
                        >>> On 7/14/2012 11:43 AM, Rich wrote:
                        >>>> I'd agree, I certainly wouldn't want to portray my company in this
                        > light,
                        >
                        >> and
                        >>>> wouldn't expect clients to seek that kind of an image, either. However,
                        >> catch a
                        >>>> few minutes of MTV and what the networks otherwise call prime-time
                        >> programming,
                        >>>> and you'll soon see that there is clearly a market for this garbage (I
                        >> apologize
                        >>>> for the editorial choice of words). I think it demeans his clients,
                        >> himself and
                        >>>> our society as a whole that this is publicly acceptable behavior today.
                        >>>> ________________________________
                        >>>> From: Ned Barnett <ned@...
                        <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                        > <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com> <mailto:ned%40barnettmarcom.com>
                        >
                        >>>> To: PRMindshare@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:PRMindshare%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                        >
                        >> prbytes@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:prbytes%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                        >
                        >>>> prquorum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                        <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:prquorum%40yahoogroups.com> ;
                        >
                        >> SmallShopNetwork@yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > <mailto:SmallShopNetwork%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        >>>> Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 6:00:19 AM
                        >>>> Subject: [prbytes] Why you shouldn't be on Facebook and own your own
                        >>>> PR/Marketing business
                        >>>> Especially if you're prone to drink or use drugs . or just have
                        >> incredibly
                        >>>> bad judgment.
                        >>>> This guy's got a degree in marketing and lists himself as the CEO of a
                        >>>> marketing company. Take a look at his page - at his pictures (of
                        >> himself),
                        >>>> and of the program he promoted (the F**K Money Show? Really?). Then ask
                        >>>> yourself, do I want to retain this loser?
                        >>>> Check it out, check it outers .
                        >> http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live#
                        <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                        > <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                        >
                        >> <http://www.facebook.com/chase.mcmullen.live>
                        >>>> PS - I'm not sure how I ever got to be his friend, but after seeing him
                        >>>> promote that "show" and demonstrate his single (middle) digit IQ, I
                        >> quickly
                        >>>> unfriended him.
                        >>>> Jeeze Louise .
                        >>>> Ned Barnett, APR
                        >>>> Marketing & PR Fellow, American Hospital Association
                        >>>> Barnett Marketing Communications
                        >>>> 420 N. Nellis Blvd., A3-276 - Las Vegas NV 89110
                        >>>> 702-561-1167 - cell/text
                        >>>> <http://www.barnettmarcom.com> www.barnettmarcom.com - twitter
                        >> @nedbarnett
                        >>>> <http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/>
                        >>>> http://pr-marketing2point0.blogspot.com/
                        >>>> 05-6-16 BMC Logo
                        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                        >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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                        >
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                        >
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                        > ------------------------------------
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                        >
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