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NEWS: Non-U.S. Students Jailed Over Class Load

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  • David P. Dillard
    This news story may provide an important example of the kind of message we are creating within our borders that will influence the opinion of the United States
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 5, 2003
      This news story may provide an important example of the kind of message we
      are creating within our borders that will influence the opinion of the
      United States that student visitors to this country take to the folks back
      home about life and treatment in the U.S.

      ------------------

      Non-U.S. students jailed over class load
      Friday, December 27, 2002 Posted: 10:23 AM EST (1523 GMT)
      <http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/12/27/foreign.students.ap/>


      DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- At least six Middle Eastern students studying in
      Colorado have been jailed in the past 10 days for failing to take enough
      college classes as required by their student visas.

      The students ran into trouble when they showed up to register with U.S.
      immigration officials, as required by new rules to track foreign students.

      <snip>

      The Immigration and Naturalization Service says the students are being
      detained because under-enrollment is a violation of their student visas.
      The students are not suspected of any other offense.

      <snip>

      One University of Colorado at Denver student was jailed last week because
      he was one hour shy of a full load after receiving college permission to
      drop a course, Johnson said.

      "I don't believe this is helping us with the war on terrorism," said Mark
      Hallett, director of international student services at Colorado State
      University. "We're alienating people who could be our best friends and
      ambassadors once they return to their countries."

      ------------------

      Full Story May be Read at the URL Above.


      Sincerely,
      David Dillard
      Temple University
      (215) 204 - 4584
      jwne@...
    • Ned Barnett
      I m damned glad to see that we re finally starting (just starting) to crack down on foreign guests who violate the rules of their visas - rules that have the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 5, 2003
        I'm damned glad to see that we're finally starting (just starting) to crack
        down on foreign "guests" who violate the rules of their visas - rules that
        have the force of law. Since several of the terrorists were in the US with
        student visas that had been "violated," I guess it's actually about 15
        months too late ... but better late than never, I guess.

        Personally, I won't be satisfied until EVERY person who's here illegally
        (either by virtue of having no visa or by virtue of having violated the
        legal terms of their status here) are deported or jailed.

        Nobody not born or naturalized an American citizen has any "right" to be
        here - all are here by our choice, at our sufferance, and with full
        knowledge of the laws (and the implications of violating those laws).

        If the message sent to the rest of the world is "The US is FINALLY waking
        up and enforcing their laws." I guarantee you that these people "visiting"
        here know what happens to people (citizens or non-citizens) in their own
        home countries.

        David, you seem to be suggesting that "jailing" criminals who also happen
        to be students here in the US on visas they violated (knowing the
        consequences of such violations) is wrong - that in spite of 9/11 and our
        own laws (local, state and Federal), we should indulge visiting students to
        do whatever the hell they please, without consequences - even if their
        actions violate their visas in a way that have criminal-code
        consequences. If so, I must take issue with your views - respectfully,
        since freedom of speech (based on freedom of thought) is at the core of our
        country's strength. But I do disagree with those who think we "owe" these
        visitors anything beyond granting them the privileges and holding them to
        the responsibilities they accept upon coming to the US.

        All the best

        Ned


        At 10:23 AM 1/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:


        >This news story may provide an important example of the kind of message we
        >are creating within our borders that will influence the opinion of the
        >United States that student visitors to this country take to the folks back
        >home about life and treatment in the U.S.
        >
        >------------------
        >
        >Non-U.S. students jailed over class load
        >Friday, December 27, 2002 Posted: 10:23 AM EST (1523 GMT)
        ><<http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/12/27/foreign.students.ap/>http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/12/27/foreign.students.ap/>
        >
        >
        >DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- At least six Middle Eastern students studying in
        >Colorado have been jailed in the past 10 days for failing to take enough
        >college classes as required by their student visas.
        >
        >The students ran into trouble when they showed up to register with U.S.
        >immigration officials, as required by new rules to track foreign students.
        >
        ><snip>
        >
        >The Immigration and Naturalization Service says the students are being
        >detained because under-enrollment is a violation of their student visas.
        >The students are not suspected of any other offense.
        >
        ><snip>
        >
        >One University of Colorado at Denver student was jailed last week because
        >he was one hour shy of a full load after receiving college permission to
        >drop a course, Johnson said.
        >
        >"I don't believe this is helping us with the war on terrorism," said Mark
        >Hallett, director of international student services at Colorado State
        >University. "We're alienating people who could be our best friends and
        >ambassadors once they return to their countries."
        >
        >------------------
        >
        >Full Story May be Read at the URL Above.
        >
        >
        >Sincerely,
        >David Dillard
        >Temple University
        >(215) 204 - 4584
        >jwne@...
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dmitry Penzin
        ... crack ... I cannot agree this idea complete. True terrorists have enought money for right documents. You cannot stoped it by hard control only, but you
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 7, 2003
          > I'm damned glad to see that we're finally starting (just starting) to
          crack
          > down on foreign "guests" who violate the rules of their visas - rules that

          I cannot agree this idea complete. True terrorists have enought money
          for right documents. You cannot stoped it by hard control only, but
          you can make terrible the life of ordinary people. I have a acquaintance
          who live in USA many years, but comeback to Russia a few month ago.
          He said that USA very like to former Soviet Union now, where secret
          service have not good control from civil society. He said that don't like
          to see this second time. We have many problem for to get a USA's
          visa in Russia, after 9/11 we have additional limitation and new stupid
          questions in USA's consulate. This is not good PR for American's
          democracy.

          --
          Dmitry, http://www.d-p.spb.ru
        • Dmitry Penzin
          last year I have written a few lines for one lady, but I can see now that it ought use for PR also :-) -- Dmitry, http://www.d-p.spb.ru 26.12.2002 From love to
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 7, 2003
            last year I have written a few lines for one lady,
            but I can see now that it ought use for PR also :-)

            --
            Dmitry, http://www.d-p.spb.ru



            26.12.2002
            From love to hate is just a step.
            The people tread on rakes so often.
            We pass this path without problems,
            but cannot find way to come back
          • satish
            Every country ahs its own rules and regulations.....I think the world should worry about the US getting paranoid about the terrorism... Cheers satish ... From:
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 7, 2003
              Every country ahs its own rules and regulations.....I think the world
              should worry about the US getting paranoid about the terrorism...
              Cheers
              satish

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ned Barnett [mailto:interned@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:13 PM
              To: prbytes@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [prbytes] NEWS: Non-U.S. Students Jailed Over Class Load


              At 02:45 PM 1/7/03 +0300, you wrote:
              > > I'm damned glad to see that we're finally starting (just starting)
              > > to
              >crack
              > > down on foreign "guests" who violate the rules of their visas -
              > > rules that
              >
              >I cannot agree this idea complete. True terrorists have enought money
              >for right documents. You cannot stoped it by hard control only, but you

              >can make terrible the life of ordinary people. I have a acquaintance
              >who live in USA many years, but comeback to Russia a few month ago. He
              >said that USA very like to former Soviet Union now, where secret
              >service have not good control from civil society. He said that don't
              >like to see this second time. We have many problem for to get a USA's
              >visa in Russia, after 9/11 we have additional limitation and new stupid

              >questions in USA's consulate. This is not good PR for American's
              >democracy.
              >
              >--
              >Dmitry, <http://www.d-p.spb.ru>http://www.d-p.spb.ru
              >



              I appreciate your views, Dmitry, but frankly, we have enough problems
              with
              our security without being over-concerned about how this is viewed in
              other
              countries.

              If you cannot understand the shock of having 3,000 citizens killed -
              murdered by terrorists WHO CAME HERE ON STUDENT VISAS (at least some
              did)
              - and the desire we have to close that loophole in our security, then
              you
              need to check your empathy factor.

              We do not run this country (no country does) for the benefit and/or
              approval of non-resident non-citizens. We run this country for the
              benefit
              of our citizens and for our legal non-citizen residents. Period.
              Having
              seen 3,000 fellow citizens murdered, I am willing to take any reasonable

              effort to stop that from happening again. If that means NO foreign
              citizens (other than legal residents) are allowed (it won't come to
              that)
              in the US, what's the problem with that?

              If Russia was being assaulted by foreign terrorists and thousands of
              your
              citizens were being murdered, I would EXPECT you to close your borders
              to
              all potential terrorists. I wouldn't think ill of you - I'd think
              you've
              got your act together, and know where your priorities should lie.

              If your friend REALLY thinks that the US is now functioning with the
              level
              of freedom found in the Soviet Union in the mid-70s (I really can't
              believe
              it) then he and you would be fools to come here. Don't complain to us
              about our loss of freedom (you don't think we feel that?) - just pick
              another destination for your travels or studies. The world is a big
              place
              - nobody not a citizen or legal resident of the US has any NEED to come
              here - and we have no real NEED to let anybody not a citizen or legal
              resident into the US. If that's the only way to stop the terror (I
              don't
              think it is - but what if it IS the only way?) then so be it. And if
              that's the case, it's our business and nobody else's business.

              There are very few Americans trying to tell Russia how to deal with your

              Chechen Muslim terrorists (though if you ask, I could offer you a few
              suggestions <g>) - why? It's your business, not ours. Frankly, I hope
              you
              solve it, quickly - and if that means imprisoning or killing every
              Chechen
              terrorist - if that's what it takes to stop more of those horrible
              slaughters like the Moscow hostage situation - then all I can say is
              "they
              asked for it ..."

              Terror has no place in the world. Terrorists have no right to live -
              let
              alone to kill. The sooner all decent, peaceful non-terrorist people
              wake
              up to the realization that this is a fight to the death - with the "good

              guys" on one side and the terrorists on the other side, the sooner we'll

              have a safer, saner world. Until then, peaceful people will suffer and
              die
              because their leaders lack the stones to protect them.

              That's my opinion. You need to tend to making your country safe again,
              and
              let us take the steps necessary to make our country safe. If you need
              our
              help or advice, just ask. When we need your advice, I assure you we'll
              ask. Until then, if you can't support us, for God's sake don't support
              the
              terrorists. Sadly, there is NO middle ground in the war with terror -
              just
              ask the 22 dead in Tel Aviv who were slaughtered by nail-bombs the other

              day ... or the hundred-plus hostages who died in Moscow ... or the 3,000

              who died here on 9/11.

              That's my opinion - I'm just sorry I don't have the power (myself) to
              act
              on it.

              Ned Barnett




              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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            • Ned Barnett
              ... I appreciate your views, Dmitry, but frankly, we have enough problems with our security without being over-concerned about how this is viewed in other
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 7, 2003
                At 02:45 PM 1/7/03 +0300, you wrote:
                > > I'm damned glad to see that we're finally starting (just starting) to
                >crack
                > > down on foreign "guests" who violate the rules of their visas - rules that
                >
                >I cannot agree this idea complete. True terrorists have enought money
                >for right documents. You cannot stoped it by hard control only, but
                >you can make terrible the life of ordinary people. I have a acquaintance
                >who live in USA many years, but comeback to Russia a few month ago.
                >He said that USA very like to former Soviet Union now, where secret
                >service have not good control from civil society. He said that don't like
                >to see this second time. We have many problem for to get a USA's
                >visa in Russia, after 9/11 we have additional limitation and new stupid
                >questions in USA's consulate. This is not good PR for American's
                >democracy.
                >
                >--
                >Dmitry, <http://www.d-p.spb.ru>http://www.d-p.spb.ru
                >



                I appreciate your views, Dmitry, but frankly, we have enough problems with
                our security without being over-concerned about how this is viewed in other
                countries.

                If you cannot understand the shock of having 3,000 citizens killed -
                murdered by terrorists WHO CAME HERE ON STUDENT VISAS (at least some did)
                - and the desire we have to close that loophole in our security, then you
                need to check your empathy factor.

                We do not run this country (no country does) for the benefit and/or
                approval of non-resident non-citizens. We run this country for the benefit
                of our citizens and for our legal non-citizen residents. Period. Having
                seen 3,000 fellow citizens murdered, I am willing to take any reasonable
                effort to stop that from happening again. If that means NO foreign
                citizens (other than legal residents) are allowed (it won't come to that)
                in the US, what's the problem with that?

                If Russia was being assaulted by foreign terrorists and thousands of your
                citizens were being murdered, I would EXPECT you to close your borders to
                all potential terrorists. I wouldn't think ill of you - I'd think you've
                got your act together, and know where your priorities should lie.

                If your friend REALLY thinks that the US is now functioning with the level
                of freedom found in the Soviet Union in the mid-70s (I really can't believe
                it) then he and you would be fools to come here. Don't complain to us
                about our loss of freedom (you don't think we feel that?) - just pick
                another destination for your travels or studies. The world is a big place
                - nobody not a citizen or legal resident of the US has any NEED to come
                here - and we have no real NEED to let anybody not a citizen or legal
                resident into the US. If that's the only way to stop the terror (I don't
                think it is - but what if it IS the only way?) then so be it. And if
                that's the case, it's our business and nobody else's business.

                There are very few Americans trying to tell Russia how to deal with your
                Chechen Muslim terrorists (though if you ask, I could offer you a few
                suggestions <g>) - why? It's your business, not ours. Frankly, I hope you
                solve it, quickly - and if that means imprisoning or killing every Chechen
                terrorist - if that's what it takes to stop more of those horrible
                slaughters like the Moscow hostage situation - then all I can say is "they
                asked for it ..."

                Terror has no place in the world. Terrorists have no right to live - let
                alone to kill. The sooner all decent, peaceful non-terrorist people wake
                up to the realization that this is a fight to the death - with the "good
                guys" on one side and the terrorists on the other side, the sooner we'll
                have a safer, saner world. Until then, peaceful people will suffer and die
                because their leaders lack the stones to protect them.

                That's my opinion. You need to tend to making your country safe again, and
                let us take the steps necessary to make our country safe. If you need our
                help or advice, just ask. When we need your advice, I assure you we'll
                ask. Until then, if you can't support us, for God's sake don't support the
                terrorists. Sadly, there is NO middle ground in the war with terror - just
                ask the 22 dead in Tel Aviv who were slaughtered by nail-bombs the other
                day ... or the hundred-plus hostages who died in Moscow ... or the 3,000
                who died here on 9/11.

                That's my opinion - I'm just sorry I don't have the power (myself) to act
                on it.

                Ned Barnett
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