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Re: Reserves , Who flies with them, and who don't and why.

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  • blackjack2359
    I agree, I never fly without one. Seems to me that it is like having insurance that you only pay for once (with the exception of annual inspections and
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
      I agree, I never fly without one. Seems to me that it is like having insurance that you only pay for once (with the exception of annual inspections and repacking). You never know when you will need it, until you NEED it. I would rather fall from the sky slower than faster, if you know what I mean. Just remember, our life is dependant on a piece of cloth and string. If anything can go wrong, to me, I would like to at least like to have a fighting chance if something did happen.

      Since I am writing this......so far so good!

      Blackjack

      --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
      >
      > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
      >
    • electricfarmerdotcom
      I think people don t have them because serious incidents usually happen when you are landing or taking off. I too have a reserve. But once you are at an
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
        I think people don't have them because serious incidents usually happen when you are landing or taking off. I too have a reserve. But once you are at an altitude that it can work....you are unlikely to have a failure. Doing acrobatics would require a reserve but a reserve won't help you if you spiral in or hit a tree. Of course when I am at a high altitude, I am happy to reach down and feel my reserve.

        --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "blackjack2359" <blackjack2359@...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree, I never fly without one. Seems to me that it is like having insurance that you only pay for once (with the exception of annual inspections and repacking). You never know when you will need it, until you NEED it. I would rather fall from the sky slower than faster, if you know what I mean. Just remember, our life is dependant on a piece of cloth and string. If anything can go wrong, to me, I would like to at least like to have a fighting chance if something did happen.
        >
        > Since I am writing this......so far so good!
        >
        > Blackjack
        >
        > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
        > >
        >
      • c_bultmann
        Reserves influence the choices pilots make flying or not flying. I observed a few times where pilots did fly mid day arguing that the reserve they had will
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
          Reserves influence the choices pilots make flying or not flying.
          I observed a few times where pilots did fly mid day arguing that the reserve they had will safe them if thinks don't work out.
          Similarly pilots fly more aggressive doing manoeuvres more often with much the same argument.
          I think the benefits or added safety of reserves get eliminated by more aggressive flying by there owners.
          Granted if you are interested in doing aggressive flying cause you like doing so, a reserve will help you MANAGE the greater risk you want to take.
          I don't fly with a reserve, making the choices when to fly and how to fly based on the conditions and my skill alone.

          Christian

          --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
          >
          > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
          >
        • Dominic
          This is one of those frequently discussed/debated topics in PPG. Interestingly, it is not debated at all in PG, because they are pretty much in agreement. We
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
            This is one of those frequently discussed/debated topics in PPG. Interestingly, it is not debated at all in PG, because they are pretty much in agreement.

            We are all aware of the common arguments: I fly in calm air, mornings and evenings; I don't thermal and fly in rotor; I fly straight and level, no cranking and banking whatsoever, etc.; therefore I don't need a reserve like the PG pilot does.

            You can go on the internet and seen hundreds of videos of PG pilots throwing reserves. In PG it happens in competitions all the time. Of course, the acro PG guys throw em all the time. But even in non-acro and non-competition PG, reserve tosses are not at all uncommon – for example, there are tons of reserve tosses at sites like Valle de Bravo every year. On the other hand, you will be really hard pressed to find a video (or an instance) of a PPG pilot coming down under reserve. If you eliminate PPG-acro, then it is nearly impossible to find such an account. This leads me to the conclusion that the arguments advance by the PPG pilots who fly without reserves do indeed have some merit, and that this topic in PPG is a fairly debatable one.

            However, although a lot of things can be fairly debated, I don't think that this proposition can be: If you are falling to the ground at, say, 1000 ft. plus and your paraglider has malfunctioned and it doesn't appear that your best efforts are causing it to re-inflate and fly, then (assuming that you have the presence of mind) you WILL wish that you had a spare parachute to chuck, if only to see if your circumstances improve any. This realization is probably the only reason that I fly with one. It is the only justification that I need to strap on the extra 8 pounds.

            I've flown without a reserve for about 6 years and didn't think much about it. When I first started to use one it seemed to be a rather significant hassle to mess with the extra rigging, as well as a bit cumbersome to launch with the new growth at my side. However, now it is part of an effortless routine and I feel naked without it. Plus, I use the container on my lap for an instrument deck, which includes my cell phone, ipod, gps, and other things that I choose to carry. Also, the pocket in the container is really handy and right in front of me for very easy access.

            While I do not claim to have the absolute "answer" in this debate, I am definitely an absolutist on this proposition: A significant part of the training of EVERY PPG pilot should include reserve-awareness training. I would go so far as to say that reserve-carry should be the "official" recommendation in our sport, to the extent that anything is official. This is similar to my absolutist stance on another newbie issue: Every prospective PPG pilot should first learn to PG. He/she should first learn to FLY a paraglider BEFORE a motor is strapped onto the back. But that's just my opinion.

            Dominic

            --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "c_bultmann" <cbultman@...> wrote:
            >
            > Reserves influence the choices pilots make flying or not flying.
            > I observed a few times where pilots did fly mid day arguing that the reserve they had will safe them if thinks don't work out.
            > Similarly pilots fly more aggressive doing manoeuvres more often with much the same argument.
            > I think the benefits or added safety of reserves get eliminated by more aggressive flying by there owners.
            > Granted if you are interested in doing aggressive flying cause you like doing so, a reserve will help you MANAGE the greater risk you want to take.
            > I don't fly with a reserve, making the choices when to fly and how to fly based on the conditions and my skill alone.
            >
            > Christian
            >
            > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
            > >
            >
          • mjnowland
            ... ***** We ve all heard these, and they do have merit. The strongest one, mentioned occasionally, is, I never fly higher than a hundred feet, so I couldn t
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
              --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Dominic" <dominicv@...> wrote:
              >
              > We are all aware of the common arguments: I fly in calm air, mornings and evenings; I don't thermal and fly in rotor; I fly straight and level, no cranking and banking whatsoever, etc.; therefore I don't need a reserve like the PG pilot does.

              *****

              We've all heard these, and they do have merit. The strongest one, mentioned occasionally, is, 'I never fly higher than a hundred feet, so I couldn't get it out in time anyway.'

              While I consider low flying unacceptably risky, it's hard to argue with that.

              I've flown with one since shortly after I started, despite keeping 250 feet of clear air under me all the time, unless I have a specific reason to fly lower.

              Acro isn't interesting any more, but thermals still get my heart rate up. Collapses still come along once in a while, usually when the trim is all the way in.

              What convinced me about reserves was looking up at collapses, both induced and accidental. Paragliders are complex cause systems, so recovery varies; inducing the same collapse in the same conditions five times in a row might give four fairly quick, consistent recoveries, but that fifth one might not be quite right. You don't have to watch too many to realize that one in a hundred or one in a thousand might not recover to a flyable condition.

              If you fly high in smooth air, your odds may be acceptably low. There's still that rare shock of clear-air turbulence that hits for no apparent reason, and there are still airplane wakes.

              Fly high,

              Mike Nowland
            • Dana Hague
              ... Phils wrote: (08/01/2010 01:29) ... This has been discussed many times. My take is this: A reserve would improve the safety
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                --------------------------------------------------
                "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                (08/01/2010 01:29)

                > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .

                This has been discussed many times. My take is this: A reserve would
                improve the safety odds, yes. However, for many of us, the cost of a
                reserve means we fly without one, or don;'t fly at all. Since the
                overall PPG safety record (without reserves) seems to be about equal
                to general aviation, and better than motorcycles, most of us consider
                it safe enough without a reserve.

                -Dana
              • TPG
                The first year of flying, I didn t have a reserve. After taking a collapse and riser twist and hitting the ground from 150 ft. the past 5 years I have flown
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                  The first year of flying, I didn't have a reserve. After taking a collapse and riser twist and hitting the ground from 150 ft. the past 5 years I have flown with one. I thank God for the miracle of saving my life and I still trust Him, but I'm glad I have another chute, just in case something goes wrong again.

                  --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
                  >
                • Ben Miller
                  What were you doing when you got riser twist? Sounds nasty... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                    What were you doing when you got riser twist? Sounds nasty...

                    On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, TPG <timothypaulgreen@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > The first year of flying, I didn't have a reserve. After taking a collapse
                    > and riser twist and hitting the ground from 150 ft. the past 5 years I have
                    > flown with one. I thank God for the miracle of saving my life and I still
                    > trust Him, but I'm glad I have another chute, just in case something goes
                    > wrong again.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Phils"
                    > <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended
                    > by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a
                    > reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one
                    > , I see no difference with PPG .
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ben Miller
                    Did the wing go into a spin while pulling break to recover it? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                      Did the wing go into a spin while pulling break to recover it?

                      On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Ben Miller <82bmiller@...> wrote:

                      > What were you doing when you got riser twist? Sounds nasty...
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, TPG <timothypaulgreen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> The first year of flying, I didn't have a reserve. After taking a collapse
                      >> and riser twist and hitting the ground from 150 ft. the past 5 years I have
                      >> flown with one. I thank God for the miracle of saving my life and I still
                      >> trust Him, but I'm glad I have another chute, just in case something goes
                      >> wrong again.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Phils"
                      >> <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended
                      >> by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a
                      >> reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one
                      >> , I see no difference with PPG .
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • JIM DOYLE
                      I fly with one.   I think it was Eric Dufour who told me It gives me options . That pretty much sums it up. A reserve is like a high hp engine.  I think
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                        I fly with one.

                          I think it was Eric Dufour who told me "It gives me options".

                        That pretty much sums it up.


                        A reserve is like a high hp engine.  I think it's better to have it and not need
                        it, than need it and not have it.

                        Learning the proper way to mount it, and the procedure to deploy it is also
                        esential.

                        Properly packed, secured and mounted I personally see no drawback to having one.

                        My flying style hasn't changed just because I carry one.  Just as my driving
                        style didn't change carrying a spare tire.

                        Jim




                        ________________________________
                        From: c_bultmann <cbultman@...>
                        To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 9:32:35 AM
                        Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: Reserves , Who flies with them, and who don't and why.

                         
                        Reserves influence the choices pilots make flying or not flying.
                        I observed a few times where pilots did fly mid day arguing that the reserve
                        they had will safe them if thinks don't work out.
                        Similarly pilots fly more aggressive doing manoeuvres more often with much the
                        same argument.
                        I think the benefits or added safety of reserves get eliminated by more
                        aggressive flying by there owners.
                        Granted if you are interested in doing aggressive flying cause you like doing
                        so, a reserve will help you MANAGE the greater risk you want to take.
                        I don't fly with a reserve, making the choices when to fly and how to fly based
                        on the conditions and my skill alone.


                        Christian

                        --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by
                        >instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a
                        >reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I
                        >see no difference with PPG .
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • mattgmorris
                        I fly with one just for the peace of mind. I realize I may never see it. Sky diving is totally different as the shock load and possibility of the main chute
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                          I fly with one just for the peace of mind. I realize I may never see it.

                          Sky diving is totally different as the shock load and possibility of the main
                          chute opening incorrectly is much much higher. Our main canopy is already open..

                          It's true you never know whats going to happen, but I have been in a situation
                          before, due to a poor launch location decision, where I was suddenly in air that
                          was throwing me into 90 degree banks and an almost uncontrollable pitch
                          situation. Even through all of that I never had a colapse and was able to deal
                          with the situation and come back in for a landing. This was all on a Muse wing.

                          I feel for a beginner they are much more necessary than for someone that has the
                          experience to choose locations and conditions where you would never need a
                          reserve.



                          --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
                          >
                        • Bill
                          Agreed. Peace of mind. I too have been in air that was completely unflyable and barely landable due to bad decision making. I remember being quite surprised
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 1, 2010
                            Agreed. Peace of mind. I too have been in air that was completely unflyable and barely landable due to bad decision making. I remember being quite surprised that I didn't have a collapse with all the violent shaking and darting from side to side. That bad experience was worth it, giving me more peace of mind about what my glider is capable of if bad weather arises again. I fly a paratoys II 30m and a momentum 33m. Hopefully I never see what my reserve looks like. :-)

                            --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "mattgmorris" <mattgmorris@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I fly with one just for the peace of mind. I realize I may never see it.
                            >
                            > Sky diving is totally different as the shock load and possibility of the main
                            > chute opening incorrectly is much much higher. Our main canopy is already open..
                            >
                            > It's true you never know whats going to happen, but I have been in a situation
                            > before, due to a poor launch location decision, where I was suddenly in air that
                            > was throwing me into 90 degree banks and an almost uncontrollable pitch
                            > situation. Even through all of that I never had a colapse and was able to deal
                            > with the situation and come back in for a landing. This was all on a Muse wing.
                            >
                            > I feel for a beginner they are much more necessary than for someone that has the
                            > experience to choose locations and conditions where you would never need a
                            > reserve.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one , I see no difference with PPG .
                            > >
                            >
                          • TPG
                            Ben, you can go to usppa and look under incidents. I posted in detail there. It happened 4-14-05.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 2, 2010
                              Ben, you can go to usppa and look under incidents. I posted in detail there. It happened 4-14-05.

                              --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Ben Miller <82bmiller@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Did the wing go into a spin while pulling break to recover it?
                              >
                              > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Ben Miller <82bmiller@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > What were you doing when you got riser twist? Sounds nasty...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, TPG <timothypaulgreen@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> The first year of flying, I didn't have a reserve. After taking a collapse
                              > >> and riser twist and hitting the ground from 150 ft. the past 5 years I have
                              > >> flown with one. I thank God for the miracle of saving my life and I still
                              > >> trust Him, but I'm glad I have another chute, just in case something goes
                              > >> wrong again.
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Phils"
                              > >> <philsconcepts@> wrote:
                              > >> >
                              > >> > Why are reserves so over looked, and even in some cases not recommended
                              > >> by instructors ? It seems to me to be a very foolish practice to not have a
                              > >> reserve. There are no sky dive schools that would let you jump with out one
                              > >> , I see no difference with PPG .
                              > >> >
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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