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speedy wing question

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  • Terry Lutke
    I m becoming increasingly interested in flying under heavily loaded gliders. In the future I ll not be surprised to see 18-20lb sq/M glider loading as common
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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      I'm becoming increasingly interested in flying under heavily loaded gliders. In the future I'll not be surprised to see 18-20lb sq/M glider loading as common (with wheels), and the primary reason is speed.
      As PPG/trike fuel efficiency improves, increasing speed from 25mph to 35 or 40 represents a dramatic difference in potential flight radius from a fixed base. A larger flight radius opens up hundreds of sq. miles of previously 'unexplored' country side.
       
      Since it's impossible to test all the gliders I would like, I need to draw glider conclusions where I can. For example, I've found that my Reflex Action will fly @35mph with a 15lb/sq/m loading at launch-trim setting; I'm aware of an Ozone CEN/B glider that will fly at 35mph+ at 17lb/m load. Obviously flying faster under smaller gliders is not magic, but it sure is great fun to run down and pass a PPC.
       
      The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to lower the AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a gliders designed angle of attack?
       
      TerryL
        
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
         
       
       
       

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • stann honey
      Terry, If I understand your question correctly, I think that the glider will maintain it original AoA, of about 8 degrees I think.  What will change is speed
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Terry, If I understand your question correctly, I think that the glider will maintain it original AoA, of about 8 degrees I think.  What will change is speed when going to a higher weight.  The glide ratio will be the same also just at a different speed. 
        If two people fly the same wing at different weights, ie, one with a trike and one without a trike, the glide ratio will also be the same but at a different speed. 

        Stann Honey
        Sula, Montana
        406-821-3574

        50% of all marriages end in divorce, what do the other 50% end in.  I consider myself one of the lucky ones.

        --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...> wrote:

        From: Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...>
        Subject: [ppgbiglist] speedy wing question
        To: "PPGBIG" <ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com>, "ppg trike cart" <Trikes_and_Flykes@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 5:10 AM






        I'm becoming increasingly interested in flying under heavily loaded gliders. In the future I'll not be surprised to see 18-20lb sq/M glider loading as common (with wheels), and the primary reason is speed.
        As PPG/trike fuel efficiency improves, increasing speed from 25mph to 35 or 40 represents  a dramatic difference in potential flight radius from a fixed base. A larger flight radius opens up hundreds of sq. miles of previously 'unexplor ed' country side.
         
        Since it's impossible to test all the gliders I would like, I need to draw glider conclusions where I can. For example, I've found that my Reflex Action will fly @35mph with a 15lb/sq/m loading at launch-trim setting; I'm aware of an Ozone CEN/B glider that will fly at 35mph+ at 17lb/m load. Obviously flying faster under smaller gliders is not magic, but it sure is great fun to run down and pass a PPC.
         
        The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to lower the AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a gliders designed angle of attack?
         
        TerryL
          
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
           
         
         
         

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dana Hague
        ... Terry, the AOA doesn t change with weight, since it s fixed by the line geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly faster to
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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          At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
          >
          >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to lower the
          >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a gliders
          >designed angle of attack?

          Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by the line
          geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly faster to
          generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing. Reducing AOA
          (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out) also
          increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go due to
          collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing, higher wing
          loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.

          -Dana
          --
          Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is doing
          to you.
        • Terry Lutke
          Hi Dana; Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion. If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and if DHV1 gliders have the
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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            Hi Dana;

            Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion.

            If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and
            if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing loadings
            be best limited to DHV1 gliders

            Terry


            --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
            > >
            > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
            lower the
            > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a
            gliders
            > >designed angle of attack?
            >
            > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by the
            line
            > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
            faster to
            > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
            Reducing AOA
            > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
            also
            > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go due
            to
            > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing, higher
            wing
            > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
            >
            > -Dana
            > --
            > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
            is doing
            > to you.
            >
          • Dana Hague
            ... I don t know that DHV1 gliders have the highest AOA; I doubt it, really. Virtually all gliders have whatever AOA gives them the best L/D at trim speed.
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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              At 08:55 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:

              >Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion.
              >
              >If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and
              >if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing loadings
              >be best limited to DHV1 gliders

              I don't know that DHV1 gliders have the highest AOA; I doubt it,
              really. Virtually all gliders have whatever AOA gives them the best L/D at
              trim speed. DHV rating is more a function of how the glider reacts _after_
              a collapse, not collapse resistance itself (since it's nearly impossible to
              simulate a random collapse, forcing a collapse by pulling down the A's
              isn't realistic). The faster, higher wing loading gliders, while having
              naturally good collapse resistance, will tend to be more violent in
              collapse recovery, which will probably knock them out of the DHV1 class.

              -Dana
              --
              Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national parka have
              been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There is a considerable
              overlap between the intelligence levels of the smartest bears and the
              dumbest tourists."
            • mario mohl
              That is, in essence, correct Terry, but there are further considerations. The problem with overloading is that wing reactions and recoveries become much more
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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                That is, in essence, correct Terry, but there are further considerations.

                The problem with overloading is that wing reactions and recoveries become much more dynamic so there is no such thing as an overloaded DHV1 wing.
                That said, since recoveries >will< be more violent, it is best to start out with a more benign wing. The downside is these are typically less efficient wings requiring more power for similar performance and this requirement in exacerbated even further.

                Good examples of wings going down this path are the Nova Speedmax (based on their beginner's Primax) and the Bio-Air Skim 15.

                DHV 1 wings do not necessarily have a higher AoA by design except at the wingtips. They usually have higher camber, high lift airfoils that tend to be draggy. This drag plus that generated by the high AoA wingtips degrades glide resulting in an overall high AoA.

                Take the low performance, fast flying, high load idea far enough and you'll be encroaching on PPC territory. There you can see how power requirements end up going through the roof.




                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Terry Lutke
                To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:55 AM
                Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: speedy wing question


                Hi Dana;

                Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion.

                If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and
                if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing loadings
                be best limited to DHV1 gliders

                Terry


                --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...> wrote:
                >
                > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
                > >
                > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
                lower the
                > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a
                gliders
                > >designed angle of attack?
                >
                > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by the
                line
                > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
                faster to
                > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
                Reducing AOA
                > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
                also
                > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go due
                to
                > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing, higher
                wing
                > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
                >
                > -Dana
                > --
                > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
                is doing
                > to you.
                >




                ------------------------------------

                PPG Questions? See the PPG Frequently Asked Questions at http://tinyurl.com/zd8s8Yahoo! Groups Links




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mario mohl
                Hi terry, How deep do you want to get into this subject? Read through this thread http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16216&highlight=skim And
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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                  Hi terry,

                  How deep do you want to get into this subject?

                  Read through this thread
                  http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16216&highlight=skim

                  And particularly take a good look at Olivier Caldara's liken to charts.

                  Mario



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Terry Lutke
                  To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:55 AM
                  Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: speedy wing question


                  Hi Dana;

                  Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion.

                  If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and
                  if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing loadings
                  be best limited to DHV1 gliders

                  Terry


                  --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
                  > >
                  > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
                  lower the
                  > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a
                  gliders
                  > >designed angle of attack?
                  >
                  > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by the
                  line
                  > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
                  faster to
                  > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
                  Reducing AOA
                  > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
                  also
                  > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go due
                  to
                  > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing, higher
                  wing
                  > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
                  >
                  > -Dana
                  > --
                  > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
                  is doing
                  > to you.
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

                  PPG Questions? See the PPG Frequently Asked Questions at http://tinyurl.com/zd8s8Yahoo! Groups Links




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeremy Langejans
                  Terry, going back to my pg experience i agree the higher wing loading would be faster, although what about your aspect ratio? ...less wing=less drag ...faster
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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                    Terry, going back to my pg experience i agree the higher wing loading would be faster, although what about your aspect ratio? ...less wing=less drag ...faster and efficient, especially under heavy wing loading. You are welcome to try my ozone octane M 26.9sqm, at 80-100 kg, it may fly fairly fast at your loading, has decent aspect ratio, as well as 8.3 glide ratio.
                     
                    Jay Langejans, Holland MI. 886-2279

                    --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...> wrote:


                    From: Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...>
                    Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: speedy wing question
                    To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 1:55 PM






                    Hi Dana;

                    Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion .

                    If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant, and
                    if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing loadings
                    be best limited to DHV1 gliders

                    Terry

                    --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogro ups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
                    > >
                    > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
                    lower the
                    > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect a
                    gliders
                    > >designed angle of attack?
                    >
                    > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by the
                    line
                    > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
                    faster to
                    > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
                    Reducing AOA
                    > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
                    also
                    > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go due
                    to
                    > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing, higher
                    wing
                    > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
                    >
                    > -Dana
                    > --
                    > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
                    is doing
                    > to you.
                    >



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Terry Lutke
                    Hi Mario; I attempted to read it but sadly I never fully comprehend most of the material covered in these types of charts and postings. I gather some preferred
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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                      Hi Mario;

                      I attempted to read it but sadly I never fully comprehend most of the
                      material covered in these types of charts and postings. I gather some
                      preferred reflex designs for flying in sporty weather.

                      Thanks;

                      Terry


                      --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, "mario mohl" <mario.mohl@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi terry,
                      >
                      > How deep do you want to get into this subject?
                      >
                      > Read through this thread
                      > http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16216&highlight=skim
                      >
                      > And particularly take a good look at Olivier Caldara's liken to
                      charts.
                      >
                      > Mario
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Terry Lutke
                      > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:55 AM
                      > Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: speedy wing question
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Dana;
                      >
                      > Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion.
                      >
                      > If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant,
                      and
                      > if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing
                      loadings
                      > be best limited to DHV1 gliders
                      >
                      > Terry
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
                      > lower the
                      > > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect
                      a
                      > gliders
                      > > >designed angle of attack?
                      > >
                      > > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by
                      the
                      > line
                      > > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
                      > faster to
                      > > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
                      > Reducing AOA
                      > > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
                      > also
                      > > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go
                      due
                      > to
                      > > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing,
                      higher
                      > wing
                      > > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
                      > >
                      > > -Dana
                      > > --
                      > > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
                      > is doing
                      > > to you.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > PPG Questions? See the PPG Frequently Asked Questions at
                      http://tinyurl.com/zd8s8Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Terry Lutke
                      Hi Jay..maybe I will, we should meet up in Holland one day soon. Thanks Terry ... loading would be faster, although what about your aspect ratio? ...less
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 1, 2009
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                        Hi Jay..maybe I will, we should meet up in Holland one day soon.

                        Thanks

                        Terry

                        --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Langejans
                        <jay2thawizow@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Terry, going back to my pg experience i agree the higher wing
                        loading would be faster, although what about your aspect
                        ratio? ...less wing=less drag ...faster and efficient, especially
                        under heavy wing loading. You are welcome to try my ozone octane M
                        26.9sqm, at 80-100 kg, it may fly fairly fast at your loading, has
                        decent aspect ratio, as well as 8.3 glide ratio.
                        >  
                        > Jay Langejans, Holland MI. 886-2279
                        >
                        > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Terry Lutke <tllutke52@...>
                        > Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: speedy wing question
                        > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 1:55 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Dana;
                        >
                        > Thanks, this leads to my next question/conclusion .
                        >
                        > If higher AoA is generally percieved as more collapse resistant,
                        and
                        > if DHV1 gliders have the highest AoA, would extra high wing
                        loadings
                        > be best limited to DHV1 gliders
                        >
                        > Terry
                        >
                        > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogro ups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@ ..>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > At 07:10 AM 3/1/2009, Terry Lutke wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >The traditional method of flying faster with a parawing is to
                        > lower the
                        > > >AOA..here is my question..Does in-flight weight have any effect
                        a
                        > gliders
                        > > >designed angle of attack?
                        > >
                        > > Terry, the AOA doesn't change with weight, since it's fixed by
                        the
                        > line
                        > > geometry. Flying heavier increases speed because you have to fly
                        > faster to
                        > > generate the same lift at the same AOA with a smaller wing.
                        > Reducing AOA
                        > > (either a line geometry change, or just letting the trimmers out)
                        > also
                        > > increases your speed, but there's a limit to how far you can go
                        due
                        > to
                        > > collapse resistance issues, so reducing area (smaller wing,
                        higher
                        > wing
                        > > loading is the most practical way to go a lot faster.
                        > >
                        > > -Dana
                        > > --
                        > > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country
                        > is doing
                        > > to you.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Ben Miller
                        Jeremy- Is that the octane flx? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          Jeremy-

                          Is that the octane flx?


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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