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RE: [ppgbiglist] Re: Muse 6 to 1 glider ratio

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  • zebur mercan
    Hi Dane, you are correct, that spose to be sink rate not L/D. Thanks ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You
    Message 1 of 63 , Jul 1 1:39 AM
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      Hi Dane,
      you are correct, that spose to be sink rate not L/D.

      Thanks


      --- Dane & Freda Lance <edlance@...> wrote:

      > Wingloading (i.e. weight) does not change glide
      > ratio. Glide ratio is a
      > function of the wing shape/airfoil design.
      > Increased weight
      > (wingloading) will increase speed, but the glide
      > ratio remains the same.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of zebur mercan
      > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:17 AM
      > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [ppgbiglist] Re: Muse 6 to 1 glider
      > ratio
      >
      > Hi Beery,
      > If you click on the link
      >
      > http://home.
      > <http://home.att.net/~jdburch/polar.htm>
      > att.net/~jdburch/polar.htm
      >
      > you`ll see very detailed explanation of polar
      > curves,L/D,best sink and all the rest.
      >
      > My glider is an Edel promise it has the same
      > (claimed
      > glide ratio as Muse) and after flying so many hours
      > with Bill,I think that is correct!
      > when the manufacturers give the L/D results they all
      > exagurate it (a little bit),and they test them with
      > the best weight ratio possible where as most of us
      > fly
      > at the top end weight limit of the gliders! So it`s
      > another factor apart from the drag of the
      > paramotor!!!
      >
      >
      > Zebur
      >
      > --- Dane & Freda Lance <edlance@awesomenet.
      > <mailto:edlance%40awesomenet.net> net> wrote:
      >
      > > Beery, it depends on whether you have a headwind
      > or
      > > a tailwind, or?
      > >
      > > For a tailwind, it is best to fly at or near
      > minimum
      > > sink as this
      > > maximizes air time (lowest rate of altitude loss)
      > > while allowing the
      > > tailwind to keep you moving to cover the distance.
      >
      > >
      > > Head wind, fly fast. You have to make head way, so
      > > fly fast to cover
      > > the distance (trimmers out, and/or speedbar if you
      > > have it). Min sink
      > > no good here since it can cause you to have little
      > > to no ground speed.
      > > Great you can maximize your time in the air, but
      > all
      > > the time in the
      > > world is useless if you aren't making headway.
      > >
      > > In no wind, you want to fly at the wing's best L/D
      > > speed, specific to
      > > each brand/model of wing (and possibly size).
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > ups.com
      > > [mailto:ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > ups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of Beery
      > > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:50 PM
      > > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com
      > > Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: Muse 6 to 1 glider ratio
      > >
      > > It's difficult here to find calm days where one
      > can
      > > test glide
      > > ratios here in Houston. Myself, on my Eden 2, I
      > have
      > > killed the
      > > motor around 5+ miles out to glid back to the LZ.
      > > The last time, I
      > > was at 4200' and got back with over 500'
      > remaining.
      > > That put the
      > > Eden around a 7 glide ratio.
      > >
      > > I can't say for sure if I had a tailwind or
      > > crosswind, as I only do
      > > that when the winds are "right". This past
      > weekend,
      > > I hit a
      > > headwind, so I creeped back with power.
      > >
      > > Has anyone thought about whether if during a motor
      > > out and you need
      > > to maximize distance traveled, if it is better to
      > > have the trim in
      > > or out? I believe out, but I don't have the data.
      > >
      > > Theoretically, if there wasn't resistance of our
      > > body in the air, we
      > > should end up at the same point, but with trim
      > tabs
      > > out, we minimize
      > > time our bodies pose that resistance.
      > >
      > > Thoughts?
      > >
      > > Beery
      > >
      > > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > ups.com, "gjcarter34" <gary@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Dell,
      > > >
      > > > After I did the testing last night I ended up
      > with
      > > a 5.1 to 1
      > > glide
      > > > ratio not 6 to 1. I started the descent at 1700
      > > msl and stopped
      > > at
      > > > 1200 msl. It was very still so I feel it was
      > very
      > > accurate. I
      > > would
      > > > like to see what others end up with for a glide
      > > ratio with the
      > > Muse
      > > > and other wings when the prop isn't
      > > > spinning. It showed me that adding the paramotor
      > > creates a
      > > > substantial amount of drag. Has anyone else
      > > checked glide ratio
      > > > this way?
      > > >
      > > > Gary
      > > >
      > > > In ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
      > > "imasuper0308" <imasuper0308@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Naw that is probably a bit low, I'm just used
      > to
      > > testing
      > > > everything
      > > > > at over 5000 foot. Makes a big difference. I
      > > would bet
      > > anything
      > > > it
      > > > > will never get 6 to 1 though. I believe there
      > > are now skydive
      > > > rigs
      > > > > that claim 7 to 1. They probably only get 5.5
      > to
      > > 1 though in
      > > > > reality. That still makes my funny claim true
      > > though:).
      > > > >
      > > > > Dell
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > ups.com, "imasuper0308"
      > > <imasuper0308@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I'm going to take a guess at closer to 4 to
      > 1.
      > > It will be
      > > > > > interesting to know though.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Dell
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogro
      > > <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > ups.com, "gjcarter34" <gary@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Dell,
      > > > > > > I will check out the glide ratio tonight
      > as
      > > we will have no
      > > > wind
      > > > > > > conditions here in NY. If I had to guess I
      > > would say it
      > > will
      > > > be
      > > > > > > between 5.5 and 6.5 to 1. I will not have
      >
      === message truncated ===


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    • Bud Johnson
      ... but Mo ... have ... Yes, understood and thanks Rob. I just did not recall Johnes being at the second Convention, so I guessed it was the first. I thought
      Message 63 of 63 , Jul 6 2:29 PM
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        --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com, Rob Reynolds <rob@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, depends on what you mean. The First Convention was in 2001,
        but Mo
        > wasn¹t there. He was at the Second convention in 2002, which would
        have
        > been where your conversation took place. :)
        >
        >
        > So I¹m right and wrong, and you were wrong and right. Make sense?



        Yes, understood and thanks Rob.

        I just did not recall Johnes being at the second Convention, so I
        guessed it was the first.

        I thought that you were saying the first Convention was in 02, again
        understand now.

        Bud



        :)
        >
        > on 7/6/06 7:31 AM, Bud Johnson at budjohnson@... wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ppgbiglist%
        40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > > <rob@> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > Bud, 2001 was the second convention. That's ok, you are an old
        > > man, sometimes the memory isn't what it used to be.
        > >
        > > Thanks Rob, and you are right about the memory/age thing. I wish
        I
        > > had done the right drugs, and it would not have happened.
        > >
        > > But I don't think your explanation applies this time (first vs.
        > > second convention). So this time, what is your excuse youngster?
        > >
        > > Bud
        > >
        > >> >
        > >> > -----Original Message-----
        > >> >
        > >> > From: "Bud Johnson" <budjohnson@>
        > >> > Subj: [ppgbiglist] Re: Muse 6 to 1 glider ratio
        > >> > Date: Wed Jul 5, 2006 9:25 pm
        > >> > Size: 1K
        > >> > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ppgbiglist%
        40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> >
        > >> > --- In ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ppgbiglist%
        40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > >> Mo Sheldon <mo@> wrote:
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > Bud,
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > You wrote:
        > >>> > > "We had this discussion over 5 years ago in person. I
        explained
        > >> > that
        > >>> > > wing loading does Not effect glide ratio."
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > I do not remember our conversation where we specifically
        > > discussed
        > >> > this. Was
        > >>> > > it at Ocotillo Wells? I remember we talked about many
        subjects
        > >> > there.
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > Hi Mo,
        > >> >
        > >> > It was at the first Convention, April 2001. The pilots
        mentioned
        > >> > were Chris Santacroce and Michael Campbell Jones. Adn yes, we
        did
        > >> > discuss subjects at the Ocotillo Wells fly-in, and yes I know
        that
        > > I
        > >> > was full of dust sometimes!
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > Also,
        > >>> > > back then, I was a pretty low hour pilot. I have racked
        just a
        > > bit
        > >> > of
        > >>> > > airtime since then. :)
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > Yes you have, more than me and a lot of other pilots. You just
        > > keep
        > >> > getting better and better at your work. You are relentless at
        > > that,
        > >> > good for you.
        > >> >
        > >> > Bud
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > You analogy of a triangle to understand this concept makes
        > > perfect
        > >> > sense to
        > >>> > > me... now. From my experiences teaching others about these
        > >> > concepts, I do
        > >>> > > not think these are easy concepts to fully grasp, as you are
        > >> > insinuating. In
        > >>> > > fact, I have seen many licensed pilots not fully
        understanding the
        > >>> > > airspeed/ground speed concepts. For example, I often ask my
        > >> > students 'Does
        > >>> > > your airspeed change faster, slower or stays the same when
        you
        > > fly
        > >> > upwind or
        > >>> > > downwind.' The majority of responses I get is that air speed
        > >> > increases or
        > >>> > > decreases. The correct answer is it stays the same. I have
        had
        > > long
        > >>> > > discussions about this with sky divers and licensed pilots
        who
        > >> > insist I am
        > >>> > > wrong. I find oftentimes it takes a while for these
        concepts to
        > >> > fully sink
        > >>> > > in.
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > regards,
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > Mo
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > > From: "Bud Johnson" <budjohnson@>
        > >>> > > Reply-To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com
        > >>> <mailto:ppgbiglist%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >>> > > Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 21:47:01 -0000
        > >>> > > To: ppgbiglist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ppgbiglist%
        40yahoogroups.com>
        > >>> > > Subject: [ppgbiglist] Re: Muse 6 to 1 glider ratio
        > >>> > >
        > >>> > >
        > >> >
        > >> > --- message truncated ---
        > >> >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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