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Postfix not speaking with amavis?

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  • Postfix
    Hi, Sorry if this is the wrong list. I have a debian system, installed the amavis packages etc following one of the many how toos. I installed postfix from
    Message 1 of 19 , May 9, 2013

      Hi,

      Sorry if this is the wrong list.

       

      I have a debian system, installed the amavis packages etc following one of the many how toos.

       

      I installed postfix from source. Everything seems to work ok, no error message in logs.

      However, incoming and outgoing email just sits in the postfix/hold folder.

      I am assuming amavis is supposed to get the mail from here? Does it need permission rights to that folder?

       

      I have this in master.cf:

      #amavis

      smtp-amavis     unix    -       -       -       -       2       smtp

         -o smtp_data_done_timeout=1200

         -o smtp_send_xforward_command=yes

         -o disable_dns_lookups=yes 

         -o max_use=20

       

      And this in main.cf

      #amavis

      content_filter = smtp-amavis:[127.0.0.1]:10024 

       

      Thanks for any pointers.

    • Noel Jones
      ... Have you looked in the logs? Start with the basics... Is amavis running? Does amavis answer if you telnet 127.0.0.1 10024 ?
      Message 2 of 19 , May 9, 2013
        On 5/9/2013 4:43 PM, Postfix wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > Sorry if this is the wrong list.
        >
        >
        >
        > I have a debian system, installed the amavis packages etc following
        > one of the many how toos.
        >
        >
        >
        > I installed postfix from source. Everything seems to work ok, no
        > error message in logs.
        >
        > However, incoming and outgoing email just sits in the postfix/hold
        > folder.
        >
        > I am assuming amavis is supposed to get the mail from here? Does it
        > need permission rights to that folder?
        >
        >
        >
        > I have this in master.cf:
        >
        > #amavis
        >
        > smtp-amavis unix - - - - 2 smtp
        >
        > -o smtp_data_done_timeout=1200
        >
        > -o smtp_send_xforward_command=yes
        >
        > -o disable_dns_lookups=yes
        >
        > -o max_use=20
        >
        >
        >
        > And this in main.cf
        >
        > #amavis
        >
        > content_filter = smtp-amavis:[127.0.0.1]:10024
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks for any pointers.
        >


        Have you looked in the logs?

        Start with the basics... Is amavis running? Does amavis answer if
        you "telnet 127.0.0.1 10024"?
      • Postfix
        The logs don t have any errors for postfix. Postfix shows it receiving email, etc. Telnet gives me a response from amavis new. The only thing I see in the logs
        Message 3 of 19 , May 9, 2013
          The logs don't have any errors for postfix. Postfix shows it receiving
          email, etc.

          Telnet gives me a response from amavis new.

          The only thing I see in the logs related to amavis that might be an error
          is:

          May 9 11:18:01 /USR/SBIN/CRON[22335]: (amavis) CMD (test -e
          /usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob && /usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob sa-sync)
          May 9 11:18:01 /USR/SBIN/CRON[22334]: (amavis) MAIL (mailed 1 byte of
          output; but got status 0x004b, #012)


          Not sure what that means. If I run "/usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob sa-sync"
          manually I don't get an error.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-postfix-users@...
          [mailto:owner-postfix-users@...] On Behalf Of Noel Jones
          Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 3:09 PM
          To: postfix-users@...
          Subject: Re: Postfix not speaking with amavis?

          On 5/9/2013 4:43 PM, Postfix wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > Sorry if this is the wrong list.
          >
          >
          >
          > I have a debian system, installed the amavis packages etc following
          > one of the many how toos.
          >
          >
          >
          > I installed postfix from source. Everything seems to work ok, no error
          > message in logs.
          >
          > However, incoming and outgoing email just sits in the postfix/hold
          > folder.
          >
          > I am assuming amavis is supposed to get the mail from here? Does it
          > need permission rights to that folder?
          >
          >
          >
          > I have this in master.cf:
          >
          > #amavis
          >
          > smtp-amavis unix - - - - 2 smtp
          >
          > -o smtp_data_done_timeout=1200
          >
          > -o smtp_send_xforward_command=yes
          >
          > -o disable_dns_lookups=yes
          >
          > -o max_use=20
          >
          >
          >
          > And this in main.cf
          >
          > #amavis
          >
          > content_filter = smtp-amavis:[127.0.0.1]:10024
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for any pointers.
          >


          Have you looked in the logs?

          Start with the basics... Is amavis running? Does amavis answer if you
          "telnet 127.0.0.1 10024"?
        • Postfix
          I have a feeling it has something to do with this: postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095 Why is postfix trying to use a non
          Message 4 of 19 , May 15, 2013

            I have a feeling it has something to do with this:

            postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095

             

            Why is postfix trying to use a non existing user? I did not compile it with any preset users and I do have the postfix user and group, where is it getting that user id from?

             

            From: Kizito Thomas [mailto:manmes2003@...]
            Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 8:23 PM
            To: Postfix
            Subject: RE: Postfix not speaking with amavis?

             

            Chances are high that amavis starts scanning the mail but never  stops and thus the mail never leaves the hold queu, try commenting out amavis from postfix n see whether mails go.

            sent from SamSung Mobile

            On May 10, 2013 1:23 AM, "Postfix" <postfix_list@...> wrote:

            The logs don't have any errors for postfix. Postfix shows it receiving
            email, etc.

            Telnet gives me a response from amavis new.

            The only thing I see in the logs related to amavis that might be an error
            is:

            May  9 11:18:01 /USR/SBIN/CRON[22335]: (amavis) CMD (test -e
            /usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob && /usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob sa-sync)
            May  9 11:18:01 /USR/SBIN/CRON[22334]: (amavis) MAIL (mailed 1 byte of
            output; but got status 0x004b, #012)


            Not sure what that means. If I run "/usr/sbin/amavisd-new-cronjob sa-sync"
            manually I don't get an error.



            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-postfix-users@...
            [mailto:owner-postfix-users@...] On Behalf Of Noel Jones
            Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 3:09 PM
            To: postfix-users@...
            Subject: Re: Postfix not speaking with amavis?

            On 5/9/2013 4:43 PM, Postfix wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > Sorry if this is the wrong list.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have a debian system, installed the amavis packages etc following
            > one of the many how toos.
            >
            >
            >
            > I installed postfix from source. Everything seems to work ok, no error
            > message in logs.
            >
            > However, incoming and outgoing email just sits in the postfix/hold
            > folder.
            >
            > I am assuming amavis is supposed to get the mail from here? Does it
            > need permission rights to that folder?
            >
            >
            >
            > I have this in master.cf:
            >
            > #amavis
            >
            > smtp-amavis     unix    -       -       -       -       2       smtp
            >
            >    -o smtp_data_done_timeout=1200
            >
            >    -o smtp_send_xforward_command=yes
            >
            >    -o disable_dns_lookups=yes
            >
            >    -o max_use=20
            >
            >
            >
            > And this in main.cf
            >
            > #amavis
            >
            > content_filter = smtp-amavis:[127.0.0.1]:10024
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks for any pointers.
            >


            Have you looked in the logs?

            Start with the basics...  Is amavis running?  Does amavis answer if you
            "telnet 127.0.0.1 10024"?





          • Wietse Venema
            ... Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command. ... Wrong question. Right question: Why do I have processes with an UID that has no
            Message 5 of 19 , May 15, 2013
              Postfix:
              > I have a feeling it has something to do with this:
              >
              > postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095

              Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command.

              > Why is postfix trying to use a non existing user? I did not compile it with

              Wrong question.

              Right question:

              "Why do I have processes with an UID that has no password file entry?"

              Wietse
            • Postfix
              I assume this is why my mail is not being delivered, but how does a process use a non existing user id? There are no files on the system with that id, and no
              Message 6 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                I assume this is why my mail is not being delivered, but how does a process
                use a non existing user id?
                There are no files on the system with that id, and no processes that I see
                running with that user id.

                Unless amavis or postfix is coming hardwired with this user id, how can I
                possibly find what is using it?
                This is a new setup with not much on it.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: owner-postfix-users@...
                [mailto:owner-postfix-users@...] On Behalf Of Wietse Venema
                Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 8:26 AM
                To: Postfix users
                Subject: Re: Postfix not speaking with amavis?

                Postfix:
                > I have a feeling it has something to do with this:
                >
                > postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095

                Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command.

                > Why is postfix trying to use a non existing user? I did not compile it
                with

                Wrong question.

                Right question:

                "Why do I have processes with an UID that has no password file entry?"

                Wietse
              • Wietse Venema
                ... Perhaps the Postfix sendmail command is invoked by a program that has no read permission for the UNIX password database. Check your SElinux, AppArmor, etc.
                Message 7 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                  Postfix:
                  > postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095

                  Wietse:
                  > Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command.

                  Postfix:
                  > I assume this is why my mail is not being delivered, but how does a process
                  > use a non existing user id?

                  Perhaps the Postfix sendmail command is invoked by a program
                  that has no read permission for the UNIX password database.

                  Check your SElinux, AppArmor, etc. logs for warnings.

                  Wietse
                • Postfix
                  The passwd file is world readable. The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the postfix/hold folder? I have removed amavis as an option from
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                    The passwd file is world readable.

                    The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the postfix/hold
                    folder?
                    I have removed amavis as an option from master and main .cf

                    Postqueue -f does nothing that I can see, there are no errors in the log
                    file, all outgoing and incoming mail stays in the hold folder.

                    What is the next step postfix should do after mail is in the hold folder?



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: owner-postfix-users@...
                    [mailto:owner-postfix-users@...] On Behalf Of Wietse Venema
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:49 AM
                    To: Postfix users
                    Subject: Re: Postfix not speaking with amavis?

                    Postfix:
                    > postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID 1095

                    Wietse:
                    > Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command.

                    Postfix:
                    > I assume this is why my mail is not being delivered, but how does a
                    > process use a non existing user id?

                    Perhaps the Postfix sendmail command is invoked by a program that has no
                    read permission for the UNIX password database.

                    Check your SElinux, AppArmor, etc. logs for warnings.

                    Wietse
                  • /dev/rob0
                    You are playing guessing games with the author of Postfix. Please don t waste his time like that. Also, he has been fixing your top- posting. Please stop doing
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                      You are playing guessing games with the author of Postfix. Please
                      don't waste his time like that. Also, he has been fixing your top-
                      posting. Please stop doing that, also. Thank you.

                      > Postfix:
                      > > postfix/sendmail[29314]: fatal: no login name found for user ID
                      > > 1095
                      >
                      > Wietse:
                      > > Some process with UID=1095 invoked the Postfix sendmail command.
                      >
                      > Postfix:
                      > > I assume this is why my mail is not being delivered, but how does
                      > > a process use a non existing user id?

                      Wietse:
                      > Perhaps the Postfix sendmail command is invoked by a program that
                      > has no read permission for the UNIX password database.
                      >
                      > Check your SElinux, AppArmor, etc. logs for warnings.
                      >
                      On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:10:35AM -0700, Postfix wrote:
                      > The passwd file is world readable.

                      Fine. However, this did not address the SElinux, AppArmor, et c.
                      issues. Another possible guess is that you're using one of the Linux
                      distributions which unwisely changed the upstream Postfix default of
                      no chrooted services in master.cf.

                      > The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the
                      > postfix/hold folder?

                      Is it? I thought it was "Postfix not speaking with amavis?" This is
                      the first mention of the "postfix/hold folder", by which I suppose
                      you mean the hold queue.

                      Postfix does nothing with the hold queue unless/until instructed to
                      do so. It's on "hold". See "man postsuper", -h|-H, and "man qmgr",
                      section MAIL QUEUES, hold.

                      > I have removed amavis as an option from master and main .cf

                      Sometimes this requires a requeue of already-queued messages which
                      were set to go through amavisd. See "man postsuper" again, -r this
                      time.

                      > Postqueue -f does nothing that I can see, there are no errors in
                      > the log file, all outgoing and incoming mail stays in the hold
                      > folder.
                      >
                      > What is the next step postfix should do after mail is in the hold
                      > folder?

                      Nothing. It's on "hold" until you release it.

                      One might wonder how/why this mail is on hold, but I won't ask.
                      Instead, I will ask you to review this link before posting again:

                      http://www.postfix.org/DEBUG_README.html#mail

                      That is likely to get to the root of the problem with no further
                      guessing.
                      --
                      http://rob0.nodns4.us/ -- system administration and consulting
                      Offlist GMX mail is seen only if "/dev/rob0" is in the Subject:
                    • Wietse Venema
                      ... There is no message in the queue. Postfix NEVER ACCEPTED THE MAIL. Wietse
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                        Postfix:
                        > The passwd file is world readable.
                        >
                        > The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the postfix/hold
                        > folder?

                        There is no message in the queue. Postfix NEVER ACCEPTED THE MAIL.

                        Wietse
                      • Wietse Venema
                        ... Oops, if the message came from a content filter, there will be a message in the deferred queue that awaits processing by the filter. Wietse
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                          Wietse Venema:
                          > Postfix:
                          > > The passwd file is world readable.
                          > >
                          > > The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the postfix/hold
                          > > folder?
                          >
                          > There is no message in the queue. Postfix NEVER ACCEPTED THE MAIL.

                          Oops, if the message came from a content filter, there will be
                          a message in the deferred queue that awaits processing by the filter.

                          Wietse
                        • Postfix
                          ... the deferred queue that awaits processing by the filter. ... Thanks, I am misunderstanding how postfix handles mail. I had assumed incoming mail is put
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                            Wietse Venema:
                            > Postfix:
                            > > The passwd file is world readable.
                            > >
                            > > The question is, what happens to mail after it is put into the
                            > > postfix/hold folder?
                            >
                            > There is no message in the queue. Postfix NEVER ACCEPTED THE MAIL.

                            >Oops, if the message came from a content filter, there will be a message in
                            the deferred queue that awaits processing by the filter.

                            > Wietse

                            Thanks, I am misunderstanding how postfix handles mail. I had assumed
                            incoming mail is put into the hold folder, then from there any filtering
                            software like amavis or mailscanner would pick it up scan it then pass it
                            back to postfix where it would then get put into the other queues.

                            I have given up and re-imaged the server, going to try from scratch again. I
                            have done a few postfix setups before this with postfix and mailscanner with
                            no problems, but this has been my first attempt at using amavis.
                            I messed around with the server settings, figure it would be good to start
                            over.

                            Maybe the problem is I have used the amavis debian packages but then
                            compiled postfix from source. I would like to use the latest postfix, but
                            maybe I have to stick with the debian package of postfix even though it is
                            out of date.
                          • Quanah Gibson-Mount
                            --On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:08 PM -0700 Postfix ... If you re really bored, you could download Zimbra FOSS edition and install it just to look at how
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                              --On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:08 PM -0700 Postfix
                              <postfix_list@...> wrote:

                              > Thanks, I am misunderstanding how postfix handles mail. I had assumed
                              > incoming mail is put into the hold folder, then from there any filtering
                              > software like amavis or mailscanner would pick it up scan it then pass it
                              > back to postfix where it would then get put into the other queues.

                              If you're really bored, you could download Zimbra FOSS edition and install
                              it just to look at how postfix is configured to talk with Amavis (and SA
                              via Amavis).

                              --Quanah


                              --

                              Quanah Gibson-Mount
                              Sr. Member of Technical Staff
                              Zimbra, Inc
                              A Division of VMware, Inc.
                              --------------------
                              Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration
                            • Stan Hoeppner
                              ... This is not how it works. Postfix/amavisd may communicate via SMTP, LMTP, or through a Unix pipe or inet socket. Amavisd never reads files directly from
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                                On 5/15/2013 5:08 PM, Postfix wrote:

                                > Thanks, I am misunderstanding how postfix handles mail. I had assumed
                                > incoming mail is put into the hold folder, then from there any filtering
                                > software like amavis or mailscanner would pick it up scan it then pass it
                                > back to postfix where it would then get put into the other queues.

                                This is not how it works. Postfix/amavisd may communicate via SMTP,
                                LMTP, or through a Unix pipe or inet socket. Amavisd never reads files
                                directly from Postfix queues.

                                You are confused because you have previously used Mailscanner, which is
                                not supported by Postfix. It is not supported precisely because of the
                                way it manipulates files directly in Postfix queue directories instead
                                of using a supported Postfix API.
                                ...
                                > Maybe the problem is I have used the amavis debian packages but then
                                > compiled postfix from source. I would like to use the latest postfix, but
                                > maybe I have to stick with the debian package of postfix even though it is
                                > out of date.

                                I think your problem is that you simply haven't learned enough yet and
                                have not configured the interfaces properly.

                                And your definition of "out of date", your thinking here, is flawed.
                                Debian Stable 7 was just released and includes Postfix 2.9.6, which is
                                the most recent 2.9 upstream patch level. Only Wietse's current
                                upstream stable, is 2.10 patch level 0, is newer. If you'd look at the
                                2.10 change log you'd see that you likely don't the few additional new
                                features not in 2.9.6. You also likely don't need 80% or more of the
                                Postfix features going back to Postfix 2.0.

                                You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                no understanding. You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.

                                --
                                Stan
                              • Viktor Dukhovni
                                ... [ Editorial comment. ] With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan s suggestion, Stan should try to not pick up too much of the slack... -- Viktor.
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                                  On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 06:37:14PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:

                                  > You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                  > based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                  > no understanding. You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                  > buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                  > date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.

                                  [ Editorial comment. ]

                                  With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan's suggestion, Stan should
                                  try to not pick up too much of the slack...

                                  --
                                  Viktor.
                                • Wietse Venema
                                  ... +1 Keep it friendly, Stan! Wietse
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 15, 2013
                                    Viktor Dukhovni:
                                    > On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 06:37:14PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                    > > based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                    > > no understanding. You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                    > > buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                    > > date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.
                                    >
                                    > [ Editorial comment. ]
                                    >
                                    > With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan's suggestion, Stan should
                                    > try to not pick up too much of the slack...

                                    +1

                                    Keep it friendly, Stan!

                                    Wietse
                                  • Stan Hoeppner
                                    ... Bah, you re both New Yorkers so you surely must be plenty familiar with sarcasm. Ok, Wietse lives a little farther up state and spends all of his time at
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 16, 2013
                                      On 5/15/2013 7:21 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
                                      > Viktor Dukhovni:
                                      >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 06:37:14PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                      >>> based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                      >>> no understanding. You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                      >>> buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                      >>> date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.
                                      >>
                                      >> [ Editorial comment. ]
                                      >>
                                      >> With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan's suggestion, Stan should
                                      >> try to not pick up too much of the slack...
                                      >
                                      > +1
                                      >
                                      > Keep it friendly, Stan!

                                      Bah, you're both New Yorkers so you surely must be plenty familiar with
                                      sarcasm. Ok, Wietse lives a little farther up state and spends all of
                                      his time at home or in the funny shaped IBM building with no windows, so
                                      he may not see that much sarcasm. ;) But Viktor you've worked in the
                                      city, may still, and you may live there for all I know, so surely you
                                      see sarcasm every day. But it's not just part of New York culture, but
                                      American culture. It's a powerful literary tool used by hundreds of
                                      thousands of publications and people daily.

                                      Sure, Reindl used sarcasm, but he also cursed at people and called them
                                      stupid, among other things. This was my beef with him. I don't do such
                                      things. Lumping me in with Reindl simply for using sarcasm is painting
                                      with a very broad brush and simply not kosher.

                                      If you want to make it a blanket rule that straight sarcasm is not
                                      allowed on the list then I'll abide by that. I think that would be
                                      pretty silly, given that sarcasm permeates our society, at least
                                      American society. Apparently you two don't watch Leno, Letterman, any
                                      late night comics, as sarcasm abounds on such shows, to name only a few.
                                      Of course they say it with a smile.

                                      If I'd added a winky at the end, would that have prevented all of this?
                                      As I'd have said it with a smile? Making it "lighter" and not
                                      perceived as being rude?

                                      Sheesh...

                                      --
                                      Stan
                                    • Wietse Venema
                                      ... Stan, Viktor and I were looking from the perspective of the receiver, i.e. the person whose question you replied to. The odds are good that their cultural
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 16, 2013
                                        Stan Hoeppner:
                                        > On 5/15/2013 7:21 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
                                        > > Viktor Dukhovni:
                                        > >> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 06:37:14PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >>> You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                        > >>> based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                        > >>> no understanding. You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                        > >>> buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                        > >>> date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> [ Editorial comment. ]
                                        > >>
                                        > >> With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan's suggestion, Stan should
                                        > >> try to not pick up too much of the slack...
                                        > >
                                        > > +1
                                        > >
                                        > > Keep it friendly, Stan!
                                        >
                                        > Bah, you're both New Yorkers so you surely must be plenty familiar with
                                        > sarcasm. Ok, Wietse lives a little farther up state and spends all of

                                        Stan, Viktor and I were looking from the perspective of the receiver,
                                        i.e. the person whose question you replied to. The odds are good
                                        that their cultural background differs from yours. In fact, the far
                                        majority of people do not have English as their primary language.

                                        One well-known limitation of email is that it is single-modal. The
                                        receiver does not get any hints from voice, face expression or body
                                        language that a response is sarcastic or not.

                                        So, keep it friendly, and if you must add sarcasm, make it plenty
                                        redundantly clear. Recall that a lot of nuance/innuendo/jokes will
                                        not come across as most people are not native English speakers.

                                        Wietse
                                      • Viktor Dukhovni
                                        On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 07:27:59AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: [begin hostility] ... [end hostility] [begin sarcasm] ... [end sarcasm] ... Chill out and keep
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 16, 2013
                                          On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 07:27:59AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:

                                          [begin hostility]
                                          > >>> You're making incorrect assumptions about the usefulness of software
                                          > >>> based solely on revision numbers, of which you apparently have little or
                                          > >>> no understanding.
                                          [end hostility]

                                          [begin sarcasm]
                                          > >>>You must be a very wealthy man, as you most certainly
                                          > >>> buy a new car on Jan 1 of each year, as your current car must be "out of
                                          > >>> date" at that point, i.e. 2012 vs 2013.
                                          [end sarcasm]

                                          > >> [ Editorial comment. ]
                                          > >>
                                          > >> With Reindl off the list, in part at Stan's suggestion, Stan should
                                          > >> try to not pick up too much of the slack...
                                          > >
                                          > > +1
                                          > >
                                          > > Keep it friendly, Stan!

                                          > Sure, Reindl used sarcasm, but he also cursed at people and called them
                                          > stupid, among other things. This was my beef with him. I don't do such
                                          > things. Lumping me in with Reindl simply for using sarcasm is painting
                                          > with a very broad brush and simply not kosher.

                                          Chill out and keep it civil. Thanks.

                                          > If you want to make it a blanket rule that straight sarcasm is not
                                          > allowed on the list then I'll abide by that.

                                          Give it a try, sarcasm on public mailing lists is not terribly useful.

                                          > If I'd added a winky at the end, would that have prevented all of this?

                                          Probably not. Just think it to yourself, smile if you enjoyed the
                                          wit and don't mail it.

                                          --
                                          Viktor.
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