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Re: misunderstanding INSTALL "vs" compile-time config ? (and MacOSX patch)

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  • ixloran@...
    ... Thanks. I ll keep an eye on the Changelogs.
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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      On Sat, Apr 6, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
      > > Will your patch be added to main source tree at any time, or is it
      > > something I'll need to tweak/modify & apply when I upgrade?
      >
      > My best guess is that Wietse will likely adopt something functionally
      > equivalent wrt the compile-time override for DEF_MAIL_OWNER and
      > DEF_SGID_GROUP.
      >
      > There are various ways to handle the internals and apply the right
      > defaults to MacOSX, so the implementation details may be slightly
      > different, but this won't change the behaviour you see.

      Thanks. I'll keep an eye on the Changelogs.
    • Reindl Harald
      ... that s right but I m no longer intersted in someone s downstream idea in context of build your OWN package is in fact the wrong answer
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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        Am 06.04.2013 21:22, schrieb Viktor Dukhovni:
        > On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 08:38:41PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
        >
        >>> (1) I'm no longer intersted in someone's 'downstream idea' of what
        >>> version and how I should configure, build & use postfix
        >>
        >> what exactly did you not understand in "based on"?
        >
        > No need to hammer your point in. There's more than one way to skin
        > this cat. The OP will use whatever is most comfortable for him

        that's right

        but "I'm no longer intersted in someone's downstream idea" in
        context of "build your OWN package" is in fact the wrong answer
      • Reindl Harald
        ... adn exatcly that DOES NOT WORK because the package manager ignores the stuff in /usr/local and you hardly can remove MTA dependencies at all which means
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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          Am 06.04.2013 21:22, schrieb Viktor Dukhovni:
          > Since the OP is installing into /usr/local, a non-packaged version
          > is fine. I would go further and install into:
          >
          > /usr/local/postfix/${version}/{etc,sbin,libexec,man,html}/
          >
          > with "sendmail", "mailq" and "newaliases" in
          >
          > /usr/local/postfix/${version}/sbin/
          >
          > and symlinks from /usr/sbin, /usr/bin to the right version. This
          > makes it easy to switch between versions and delete stale files.
          > For example to build with TLS support

          adn exatcly that DOES NOT WORK because the package manager ignores
          the stuff in /usr/local and you hardly can remove MTA dependencies
          at all which means every OS update may randomly overwrite your
          /usr/sbin/sendmail symlink

          been there, done that, stopped to mangle this way by learning
        • Wietse Venema
          ... No override is needed. You can trivially set these at installation time: # make install mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ... # make upgrade mail_owner=foo
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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            Viktor Dukhovni:
            > On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 12:17:53PM -0700, ixloran@... wrote:
            >
            > > Will your patch be added to main source tree at any time, or is it
            > > something I'll need to tweak/modify & apply when I upgrade?
            >
            > My best guess is that Wietse will likely adopt something functionally
            > equivalent wrt the compile-time override for DEF_MAIL_OWNER and
            > DEF_SGID_GROUP.

            No override is needed.

            You can trivially set these at installation time:

            # make install mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
            # make upgrade mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...

            You can even change mail_owner or setgid_group after Postfix
            is already installed:

            # postfix set-permissions mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...

            This *is* documented.

            Wietse
          • Wietse Venema
            ... Also (since this thread mentioned installable packages): make package mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ... All the above work even without pre-existing
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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              Wietse Venema:
              > Viktor Dukhovni:
              > > On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 12:17:53PM -0700, ixloran@... wrote:
              > >
              > > > Will your patch be added to main source tree at any time, or is it
              > > > something I'll need to tweak/modify & apply when I upgrade?
              > >
              > > My best guess is that Wietse will likely adopt something functionally
              > > equivalent wrt the compile-time override for DEF_MAIL_OWNER and
              > > DEF_SGID_GROUP.
              >
              > No override is needed.
              >
              > You can trivially set these at installation time:
              >
              > # make install mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
              > # make upgrade mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...

              Also (since this thread mentioned installable packages):

              make package mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...

              All the above work even without pre-existing main.cf file.

              > You can even change mail_owner or setgid_group after Postfix
              > is already installed:
              >
              > # postfix set-permissions mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
              >
              > This *is* documented.

              This, of course does require a pre-existing main.cf file.

              The only build-time parameter override that's needed is for
              config_directory. All other parameters can be specified at
              /upgrade/package time. They are configurable for a reason.

              Wietse
            • Viktor Dukhovni
              ... Yes, this is an option. It applies to all parameters other than config_directory , and yet we have compile-time overrides for most installation parameters
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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                On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 04:30:59PM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote:

                > > My best guess is that Wietse will likely adopt something functionally
                > > equivalent wrt the compile-time override for DEF_MAIL_OWNER and
                > > DEF_SGID_GROUP.
                >
                > No override is needed.
                >
                > You can trivially set these at installation time:
                >
                > # make install mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
                > # make upgrade mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...

                Yes, this is an option.

                It applies to all parameters other than "config_directory", and yet
                we have compile-time overrides for most installation parameters to
                enable more natural defaults. The "mail_owner" and "setgid_group"
                installation parameters are included in the list of parameters
                explicitly defined in the target main.cf by "postfix-install". When
                I build a test version to run out of /var/tmp/postfix, creat an
                empty main.cf file and run "make upgrade" I get:

                /var/tmp/postfix/etc/main.cf:
                readme_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/readme
                sample_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/etc
                sendmail_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/sendmail
                html_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/html
                setgid_group = _postdrop
                command_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin
                manpage_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/man
                daemon_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/libexec
                newaliases_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/newaliases
                mailq_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/mailq
                queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
                mail_owner = _postfix
                data_directory = /var/lib/postfix

                in which all the installation parameters aside from mail_owner and
                setgid_group allow compile-time overrides.

                I think it would be more consistent to also allow mail_owner and
                setgid_group to have appropriate compile-time defaults for the
                target platform whether installing locally, or building packages.

                That said, the OP can of course make do with run-time overrides
                if that's the only choice.

                --
                Viktor.
              • Viktor Dukhovni
                ... This is not a big deal either way. I neglected to mention upthread that when I did install multiple versions of Postfix each rooted in their own tree
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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                  On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 09:01:54PM +0000, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:

                  > I think it would be more consistent to also allow mail_owner and
                  > setgid_group to have appropriate compile-time defaults for the
                  > target platform whether installing locally, or building packages.
                  >
                  > That said, the OP can of course make do with run-time overrides
                  > if that's the only choice.

                  This is not a big deal either way. I neglected to mention upthread
                  that when I did install multiple versions of Postfix each rooted
                  in their own tree (often in AFS) the compile-time config_directory
                  was in /etc/postfix not the version-specific directory:

                  -DDEF_CONFIG_DIR=\"/etc/postfix\"

                  There was however also a version-specific .../etc/ directory in
                  AFS, which contained stock files created by the package installer
                  (so I also used command-line overrides:

                  postfix-install \
                  config_directory=/some/afs/path/etc \
                  queue_directory=/some/afs/path/spool \
                  data_directory=/some/afs/path/data ...

                  when installing into AFS, since that was not an installation onto
                  the specific system from which I happened to push content into AFS).

                  This was not the typical Postfix via O/S packages use-case, rather
                  Postfix was delivered once into AFS for use by thousands of systems,
                  and a boot-time shell-script would select the correct version for
                  a given machine, and build a suitable main.cf/master.cf, ...

                  --
                  Viktor.
                • Wietse Venema
                  ... Perhaps some feel that the ./configure approach of customizing settings at build time is more natural than customizing them at or after installation
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 6, 2013
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                    Viktor Dukhovni:
                    > On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 04:30:59PM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote:
                    >
                    > > > My best guess is that Wietse will likely adopt something functionally
                    > > > equivalent wrt the compile-time override for DEF_MAIL_OWNER and
                    > > > DEF_SGID_GROUP.
                    > >
                    > > No override is needed.
                    > >
                    > > You can trivially set these at installation time:
                    > >
                    > > # make install mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
                    > > # make upgrade mail_owner=foo setgid_group=bar ...
                    >
                    > Yes, this is an option.
                    >
                    > It applies to all parameters other than "config_directory", and yet
                    > we have compile-time overrides for most installation parameters to
                    > enable more natural defaults. The "mail_owner" and "setgid_group"
                    > installation parameters are included in the list of parameters
                    > explicitly defined in the target main.cf by "postfix-install". When

                    Perhaps some feel that the ./configure approach of customizing
                    settings at build time is more "natural" than customizing them
                    at or after installation time. I am not convinced that the latter
                    is an inferior approach that one has to "make do" with.

                    I'm sure that there are more worthy Postfix topics to bitch about.

                    Wietse

                    > I build a test version to run out of /var/tmp/postfix, creat an
                    > empty main.cf file and run "make upgrade" I get:
                    >
                    > /var/tmp/postfix/etc/main.cf:
                    > readme_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/readme
                    > sample_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/etc
                    > sendmail_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/sendmail
                    > html_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/html
                    > setgid_group = _postdrop
                    > command_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin
                    > manpage_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/man
                    > daemon_directory = /var/tmp/postfix/libexec
                    > newaliases_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/newaliases
                    > mailq_path = /var/tmp/postfix/sbin/mailq
                    > queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
                    > mail_owner = _postfix
                    > data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
                    >
                    > in which all the installation parameters aside from mail_owner and
                    > setgid_group allow compile-time overrides.
                    >
                    > I think it would be more consistent to also allow mail_owner and
                    > setgid_group to have appropriate compile-time defaults for the
                    > target platform whether installing locally, or building packages.
                    >
                    > That said, the OP can of course make do with run-time overrides
                    > if that's the only choice.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Viktor.
                    >
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