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Re: Public free (libre) mailbox hosting service for everybody!

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  • Bennett Todd
    The operational cost is non-zero. Besides hardware, which must include backups, and enough physical diversity to offer availability, an email server is an
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 27, 2013
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      The operational cost is non-zero. Besides hardware, which must include backups, and enough physical diversity to offer availability, an email server is an attractive nuisance; spammers and other criminals constantly attempt sabotage and burglary, and it takes ongoing manpower to attempt to hold them temporarily at bay.

      And unless you put hard caps on message sizes, people will use their mailboxes as backup drives, or just email their vacation movies to family, and you'll be buying drives, and hence replacing them, often.

      I love the idea, I'm fond of running mailservers myself. But I've gone Google.

      As for software, I won't pitch my favorite components to this wide list, but I know how to find all the pieces I'd need except the webmail front-end for the utterly non-technical.

      If you limited the scope to IMAP and SMTP, both SSL authenticated, it wouldn't be too hard to spec out.

      Host on AWS EC3 or the like, then find an affordable solution to spam, and you can sell to anyone who doesn't expect their email to be private from governments.

      Anybody know of a well-engineered and maintained SSL library?

    • אנטולי קרסנר
      Hi John and all recipients, I agree offering such a service without charging for it is impossible without funding. But free means free like in freedom , not
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27, 2013
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        Hi John and all recipients,

        I agree offering such a service without charging for it is impossible
        without funding. But "free" means "free like in freedom", not "free
        beer". The idea is to respect user freedom, and it has nothing to do
        with money. I personally will not mind paying for a hosted mailbox.
        Maybe now it's difficult because I'm a student and all my money goes to
        the university, but in general, people who have full-time jobs can
        easily pay just a small amount every month, and it should be enough to
        cover the expenses, if enough people use the new server.

        But there's a chance we won't need to charge: we can get funding. There
        are SO many organizations which help free software projects, and social
        initiatives in general. If we get their support and funding, all we need
        is people who can work on that server and maintain it technically.

        People already do the same for many other services. It's possible with
        e-mail too.

        As for size limits, attack attempts and anti-spam:

        * size limit: It's okay to limit message size because it doesn't limit
        user freedom: mail is for text, not for sending movies. There are free
        and open source replacements for Dropbox, and large files can be shared
        using free (libre) p2p sharing tools, such as bittorent clients. I
        actually encourage people not to send large files. Want to share a
        mmovie clip? A photo album? Music? No problem, use the best tool for it.
        Share large files using Transmission. Upload albums to social networks
        or photo-sharing sites. Upload music to a SparkleShare shared folder or
        to a audio/video sharing website. All solutions exist. Otherwise, mail
        is great for text and documents. And a picture or two are fine too...

        * attack attemps: this is a security issue. Be aware that many
        "crackers" want to hurt organizations and cause anarchism, but we're not
        a software company. Many hackers and crackers are in fact on our side...
        and for the others, we'll setup defenses for the servers. I don't know
        much about securing a server, but some people here do, so we have the
        knowledge.

        * spam - I disagree to charge an extra free for spam filtering. Either
        the users sets up rules for filtering messages, or the server uses a
        mailbox-wide filter for any incoming messages, but there's no extra fee.
        The whole service should be available to every user, or not at all. All
        extra services, e.g. contact list and calendar, would come together with
        the mailbox. No extra fee for any service. If people need to pay for
        usage, they get the whole service for the money they pay.

        Anatoly Krasner

        On ד', 2013-02-27 at 18:23 -0500, John Hudak wrote:
        > To answer your question: I don't know of any.
        >
        > To offer some observations:
        > Assembling 'free software' is only part of the solution. Acquiring
        > servers+associated hw, shelter, and power sources takes CASH. Keeping
        > the service running takes CASH. There is no 'free' business model.
        >
        > I hate the term 'free software'....people invested their time/energy,
        > it takes power to run their machines (which is not free), the
        > distribution/bugtracking/documentation is not free. The soft
        > drinks/pizza/name your favorite work food is not free.
        >
        > Security and anonymity - how good is it going to be? With the entire
        > network being a drawing card for people wanting to steal something,
        > how is security and anonymity going to be preserved, for free???
        > If people only knew what is being harvested about them from 'free'
        > services, there would be a revolt. I even hate using gmail, and use it
        > sparingly.
        >
        > Free mail server - great idea, Implementing it - priceless!
        >
        > -John
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 4:11 PM, אנטולי קרסנר <tombackton@...>
        > wrote:
        > Hello e-mail software developers and users!
        >
        > I'd like to ask all of you a question. And of course hear
        > relevant
        > opinion.
        >
        > I've been using free software happily for a few years, and I
        > found
        > free/open source alternatives for many popular proprietary
        > tools such as
        > Facebook, Dropbox, Micro$oft Windows & Office, Youtube, Skype
        > and many
        > many others. Some of the alternatives are probably known to
        > some of you,
        > while others are still unknown to many.
        >
        > But I couldn't find a replacement to mailbox hosting. I'm
        > using a Gmail
        > mailbox and I hate it. So many free and open source mail
        > servers and I
        > still use Gmail, a closed-source service (which also probably
        > tracks all
        > my data, including Google searches I do, and uses it for all
        > kinds of
        > statistics and advertising, but that's another issue). So I
        > asked
        > myself, why is there no mailbox hosting service which respects
        > user
        > freedom?
        >
        > I sent an e-mail to the Free Software Foundation, and got a
        > suggestion
        > to ask all of you: do you know any free (libre) mail server
        > out there?
        > If you do, please inform me, and the whole free software
        > community,
        > developers and users.
        >
        > I couldn't find any. If nobody else finds any either, the plan
        > is to
        > start a new server. There are so many server tools and
        > programs, like
        > the ones you use and develop. It's just like hosting a Git
        > repository or
        > videos of pictures for the masses. We can do it with e-mail
        > too.
        >
        > Q: Why don't I start my own personal server?
        > A: I'm a programmer and I can do it - with some effort, but I
        > can. The
        > problem is not me. The problem is that all the non-programmer
        > and
        > non-technical users can't. And they shouldn't. We tech people
        > can, and
        > should, run such servers for everybody. For all users who want
        > their
        > basic freedoms respected.
        >
        > Another question to tech people: I'm not an expert in e-mail
        > software,
        > so I'm not really sure setting up a server is as easy as all
        > other
        > online services we get, such as Diaspora (facebook
        > replacement),
        > MediaGoblin (Youtube replacement), Gitorious (git repo
        > hosting). Is
        > there a technical issue preventing people from running a mail
        > server, or
        > it's just a matter of having enough money to run it, and the
        > necessary
        > technical skills (which many of you probably have).
        >
        > If it's possible, we'll do it. Also, if users had to pay for
        > such a
        > service, it would be okay. I don't mind paying for my free
        > software
        > stack. I'd actually find it a way to contribute back to the
        > people and
        > projects which deserve it. The point is not money; such a
        > service can
        > get funds. The point if FREEDOM.
        >
        > Waiting for response and opinions from you, my fellow free
        > software
        > community members,
        > Anatoly Krasner
        > Free software enthusiast/activist
        > Israel
        >
        >
        >
      • אנטולי קרסנר
        I ve written a response to someone else, explaining some issues you mention here. A little note on UI: we don t need web UI. It s a good addition but
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 27, 2013
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          I've written a response to someone else, explaining some issues you
          mention here.

          A little note on UI: we don't need web UI. It's a good addition but
          unnecessary for the beginning. There are many free-software desktop mail
          clients. Some are big and complicated, but some are very simple and very
          easy to use, just like Gmail is. So UI is not a critical issue right
          now, we just need to be able to easily configure a mail client, e.g.
          Evolution, to work with the server.

          And it's great to hear people like the idea and want to help! With hard
          work and cooperation, everything is possible!

          - Anatoly Krasner

          On ד', 2013-02-27 at 18:39 -0500, Bennett Todd wrote:
          > The operational cost is non-zero. Besides hardware, which must include
          > backups, and enough physical diversity to offer availability, an email
          > server is an attractive nuisance; spammers and other criminals
          > constantly attempt sabotage and burglary, and it takes ongoing
          > manpower to attempt to hold them temporarily at bay.
          >
          > And unless you put hard caps on message sizes, people will use their
          > mailboxes as backup drives, or just email their vacation movies to
          > family, and you'll be buying drives, and hence replacing them, often.
          >
          > I love the idea, I'm fond of running mailservers myself. But I've gone
          > Google.
          >
          > As for software, I won't pitch my favorite components to this wide
          > list, but I know how to find all the pieces I'd need except the
          > webmail front-end for the utterly non-technical.
          >
          > If you limited the scope to IMAP and SMTP, both SSL authenticated, it
          > wouldn't be too hard to spec out.
          >
          > Host on AWS EC3 or the like, then find an affordable solution to spam,
          > and you can sell to anyone who doesn't expect their email to be
          > private from governments.
          >
          > Anybody know of a well-engineered and maintained SSL library?
          >
        • אנטולי קרסנר
          ... Hi Marco (and recipients), I read the articles and I d like everybody to have a look too. Focus thoughts on technology before everything else: Can we setup
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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            On ה', 2013-02-28 at 09:33 +0100, M. Fioretti wrote:
            > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 23:11:32 PM +0200, אנטולי קרסנר wrote:
            > > Hello e-mail software developers and users!
            > >
            > > I'd like to ask all of you a question. And of course hear relevant
            > > opinion.
            >
            > > ...But I couldn't find a replacement to mailbox hosting... why is
            > > there no mailbox hosting service which respects user freedom?
            > > ...
            > > The problem is not me. The problem is that all the non-programmer
            > > and non-technical users can't. And they shouldn't. We tech people
            > > can, and should, run such servers for everybody. For all users who
            > > want their basic freedoms respected.
            > >
            > > Another question to tech people: I'm not an expert in e-mail
            > > software, so I'm not really sure setting up a server is as easy as
            > > all other online services we get, such as Diaspora (facebook
            > > replacement), MediaGoblin (Youtube replacement), Gitorious (git repo
            > > hosting). Is there a technical issue preventing people from running
            > > a mail server, or it's just a matter of having enough money to run
            > > it, and the necessary technical skills (which many of you probably
            > > have).
            >
            >
            > Anatoly,
            >
            > you practically force (in the good sense, of course) me to ask you
            > read very carefully, and spread around as much as possible, these
            > posts of mine, which answer EXACTLY the questions you present:
            >
            > http://stop.zona-m.net/2011/09/what-is-the-real-value-of-gmail-and-why-its-important-to-think-about-alternatives/
            >
            > Please also read, and spread as much as you see fit, also the links in
            > the last paragraph of that post, in which I elaborate on the topic of
            > Virtual Personal Email Servers.
            >
            > Then read this, especially the "what's missing" part that deals
            > exactly with the "we technical people should run such servers for
            > everybody" point you make:
            >
            > http://stop.zona-m.net/2013/01/the-alternatives-to-apple-facebook-c-already-exist-shall-we-package-them/
            >
            > Any feedback is welcome!
            >
            > Marco F.
            > http://mfioretti.com
            >
            >

            Hi Marco (and recipients),

            I read the articles and I'd like everybody to have a look too. Focus
            thoughts on technology before everything else: Can we setup mail service
            which is easy enough to maintain (enough to be reliable) and easy enough
            to use, even for non-technical users who use Gmail and Micro$oft
            Outlook?

            If someone who's familoar with mail software can write some kind of
            plan, or at least a list of tools needed for a mail server, I'll be
            thankful.

            Anatoly Krasner
          • אנטולי קרסנר
            ... Hello Georg / Kolab Systems, If I can connect to the Kolab mailbox from any desktop client, including KMail, Evolution, Thunderbird, and also smaller ones
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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              On ה', 2013-02-28 at 10:15 +0100, Georg C. F. Greve wrote:
              > On 2013-02-27 22:11, אנטולי קרסנר wrote:
              > > If it's possible, we'll do it. Also, if users had to pay for such a
              > > service, it would be okay. I don't mind paying for my free software
              > > stack. I'd actually find it a way to contribute back to the people and
              > > projects which deserve it. The point is not money; such a service can
              > > get funds. The point if FREEDOM.
              >
              > Did you see
              >
              >
              > http://kolabsys.com/news/make-it-your-kolab-kolab-systems-launching-mykolabcom-public-beta
              >
              > You can sign up at
              >
              > https://kolabsys.com/mykolab
              >
              > for your own personal Kolab 3 based groupware account.
              >
              > We're currently still in public beta, but are working to turn this into
              > a full public service.
              >
              > It will be paid for (pricing to be announced) but 100% Free Software &
              > Open Standards and we'll gladly guarantee that we (a) give no-one access
              > to your data outside of what we're required to comply with by law and
              > (b) you can get all your data from us whenever you feel like it. Details
              > left to be defined, we're working on that.
              >
              > But the basic idea seems very close to what you describe in your email.
              >
              > Best regards,
              > Georg
              >
              >

              Hello Georg / Kolab Systems,

              If I can connect to the Kolab mailbox from any desktop client, including
              KMail, Evolution, Thunderbird, and also smaller ones such as Balsa or
              even Mutt, then the solution your company offers is great.

              But I have some questions:

              1. Will the pricing be for the whole service, i.e. you get a mailbox,
              spam filter, calendar, etc. paying the same amount every month?

              2. I'd like to make the Free mail service as popular as I can, and
              encourage people to join. I'd also like it to be a community project
              which can receive funding and possibly even run for free (price=0). This
              way I can still send a donation, while people who aren't familiar with
              free software get a chance to migrate from GMail without paying.

              If I told you I have funding for the project, let's say from the FSF, so
              your company can get monthly payment, and in return it will run the
              service at no cost for individual users, will you agree?

              3. If you can't accept the offer to get funding for any reason, I have
              another option on my mind. Since you use free software, someone should
              be able to setup a private server just like yours. So, that someone can
              get funding and thus offer the same service you offer, without charging
              for it.

              I don't want anyone to lose income as a result of a "copy" server
              running the same service for free. I want us all to work together. On
              the other hand, I'm not sure I can get funding for a commercial company,
              that's why I offer a monthly constant amount of funding money. Maybe it
              can work.

              What do you think?

              - Anatoly Krasner
            • M. Fioretti
              ... ??? Anatoly, the list you are asking for is in one the links I had already sent to you:
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:51:10 AM +0200, אנטולי קרסנר wrote:

                > Hi Marco (and recipients),
                >
                > I read the articles and I'd like everybody to have a look too. Focus
                > thoughts on technology before everything else: Can we setup mail service
                > which is easy enough to maintain (enough to be reliable) and easy enough
                > to use, even for non-technical users who use Gmail and Micro$oft
                > Outlook?
                >
                > If someone who's familoar with mail software can write some kind of
                > plan, or at least a list of tools needed for a mail server, I'll be
                > thankful.

                ??? Anatoly, the list you are asking for is in one the links I had already
                sent to you:

                http://freesoftware.zona-m.net/wanted-virtual-personal-email-servers/

                Marco
              • אנטולי קרסנר
                Sorry, I missed that list... Two options are being examined: 1. Start a new server (I ll need your help here because I never worked with servers) 2. Use the
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                  Sorry, I missed that list...

                  Two options are being examined:

                  1. Start a new server (I'll need your help here because I never worked
                  with servers)

                  2. Use the MyKolab service. It saves all the hard work, but it's still
                  in beta stage and it's going to cost money to use it. So I'm trying to
                  get funding so that a basic mailbox service is available for no cost
                  (unless you donate to the funds supplier, which would be very nice)

                  Persoanlly, I don't have time, knowledge or money (I'm a university
                  student) to setup and maintain a mail server, so if it depends on me -
                  it would take a few years at least... so I rely on MyKolab.

                  Other mail services exist (e.g. gandi.net uses RoundCube), proving a
                  practical usable solution exists.

                  If anyone wants to start a new service independent of any company like
                  Kolab Systems - you're welcome. I'll help you with pleasure if there's
                  anything I can do. Just contact me by e-mail :-)

                  SUMMARY OF CURRENT STATUS: waiting to see if we can get funding /
                  waiting to see if someone can and wants to start a server

                  NOTE: Starting a server doesn't mean you pay everything by yourself: A
                  proof of a working service beta is enough to show people and get
                  funding. Many open-source and free-software support organizations exist,
                  which are non-profit and work using donations. A Free (libre) mail
                  server is the perfect project for them to invest in (i.e. fund).

                  I'll update when more news/responses arrive.

                  - Anatoly Krasner

                  On ה', 2013-02-28 at 15:55 +0100, M. Fioretti wrote:
                  > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:51:10 AM +0200, אנטולי קרסנר wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Marco (and recipients),
                  > >
                  > > I read the articles and I'd like everybody to have a look too. Focus
                  > > thoughts on technology before everything else: Can we setup mail service
                  > > which is easy enough to maintain (enough to be reliable) and easy enough
                  > > to use, even for non-technical users who use Gmail and Micro$oft
                  > > Outlook?
                  > >
                  > > If someone who's familoar with mail software can write some kind of
                  > > plan, or at least a list of tools needed for a mail server, I'll be
                  > > thankful.
                  >
                  > ??? Anatoly, the list you are asking for is in one the links I had already
                  > sent to you:
                  >
                  > http://freesoftware.zona-m.net/wanted-virtual-personal-email-servers/
                  >
                  > Marco
                • Reindl Harald
                  ... and the people who have the knowledge and money do not have the time because maintain a RELIEABLE mailserver costs a lot of time, especially if you try to
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                    Am 28.02.2013 16:30, schrieb אנטולי קרסנר:
                    > Persoanlly, I don't have time, knowledge or money (I'm a university
                    > student) to setup and maintain a mail server

                    and the people who have the knowledge and money do not have
                    the time because maintain a RELIEABLE mailserver costs a lot
                    of time, especially if you try to open it for everybody because
                    you can guess how many idiots you get as users which only
                    abuse your service with spam and misuse

                    as always: you get what you pay for
                  • אנטולי קרסנר
                    You pay nothing to Google but get an excellent mailbox. Not libre, but it does the job. Many people volunteer for free software. Somehow they find time. I
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                      You pay nothing to Google but get an excellent mailbox. Not libre, but
                      it does the job. Many people volunteer for free software. Somehow they
                      find time. I realize a reliable server needs people to work on it
                      full-time, it's not just a little web application you write in 10
                      minutes.

                      But that's why I'm trying to get funding. If expenses can be covered,
                      that solves the problem.

                      You're right, there's no magic solution.

                      It's not simple, but possible. And look at MyKolab. There you go, it's a
                      company which plans to launch a libre mailbox service! Yes, users will
                      have to pay money. Yes, I'm trying to get the project funded so that
                      people can get exposed to free software and software freedom, and
                      migrate from GMail, at no cost.

                      Like I said, I'll update when there's new information.

                      On ה', 2013-02-28 at 16:35 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
                      >
                      > Am 28.02.2013 16:30, schrieb אנטולי קרסנר:
                      > > Persoanlly, I don't have time, knowledge or money (I'm a university
                      > > student) to setup and maintain a mail server
                      >
                      > and the people who have the knowledge and money do not have
                      > the time because maintain a RELIEABLE mailserver costs a lot
                      > of time, especially if you try to open it for everybody because
                      > you can guess how many idiots you get as users which only
                      > abuse your service with spam and misuse
                      >
                      > as always: you get what you pay for
                      >
                    • Deeztek.com Support
                      ... If you are looking for a free email service that respects your privacy built on top of open source software, we certainly offer something like that. It s
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                        On 2/27/2013 4:11 PM, אנטולי קרסנר wrote:
                        > Hello e-mail software developers and users!
                        >
                        > I'd like to ask all of you a question. And of course hear relevant
                        > opinion.
                        >
                        > I've been using free software happily for a few years, and I found
                        > free/open source alternatives for many popular proprietary tools such as
                        > Facebook, Dropbox, Micro$oft Windows & Office, Youtube, Skype and many
                        > many others. Some of the alternatives are probably known to some of you,
                        > while others are still unknown to many.
                        >
                        > But I couldn't find a replacement to mailbox hosting. I'm using a Gmail
                        > mailbox and I hate it. So many free and open source mail servers and I
                        > still use Gmail, a closed-source service (which also probably tracks all
                        > my data, including Google searches I do, and uses it for all kinds of
                        > statistics and advertising, but that's another issue). So I asked
                        > myself, why is there no mailbox hosting service which respects user
                        > freedom?
                        >
                        > I sent an e-mail to the Free Software Foundation, and got a suggestion
                        > to ask all of you: do you know any free (libre) mail server out there?
                        > If you do, please inform me, and the whole free software community,
                        > developers and users.
                        >
                        > I couldn't find any. If nobody else finds any either, the plan is to
                        > start a new server. There are so many server tools and programs, like
                        > the ones you use and develop. It's just like hosting a Git repository or
                        > videos of pictures for the masses. We can do it with e-mail too.
                        >
                        > Q: Why don't I start my own personal server?
                        > A: I'm a programmer and I can do it - with some effort, but I can. The
                        > problem is not me. The problem is that all the non-programmer and
                        > non-technical users can't. And they shouldn't. We tech people can, and
                        > should, run such servers for everybody. For all users who want their
                        > basic freedoms respected.
                        >
                        > Another question to tech people: I'm not an expert in e-mail software,
                        > so I'm not really sure setting up a server is as easy as all other
                        > online services we get, such as Diaspora (facebook replacement),
                        > MediaGoblin (Youtube replacement), Gitorious (git repo hosting). Is
                        > there a technical issue preventing people from running a mail server, or
                        > it's just a matter of having enough money to run it, and the necessary
                        > technical skills (which many of you probably have).
                        >
                        > If it's possible, we'll do it. Also, if users had to pay for such a
                        > service, it would be okay. I don't mind paying for my free software
                        > stack. I'd actually find it a way to contribute back to the people and
                        > projects which deserve it. The point is not money; such a service can
                        > get funds. The point if FREEDOM.
                        >
                        > Waiting for response and opinions from you, my fellow free software
                        > community members,
                        > Anatoly Krasner
                        > Free software enthusiast/activist
                        > Israel
                        >
                        >
                        If you are looking for a free email service that respects your privacy
                        built on top of open source software, we certainly offer something like
                        that. It's built on top of postfix,courier, egroupware and we offer 5GB
                        mailboxes, Secure IMAP, Secure POP3, Secure SMTP, calendar, tasks and
                        contacts. We guarantee not to share or sell your private information to
                        anyone for any reason unless of course we are presented with a court
                        order requiring us to do so :) Heck, we don't even serve ads. We are on
                        the initial stages of rolling it out (out website is still under
                        construction but the e-mail hosting works fine) but you are more than
                        welcome to try it out if you like:

                        https://www.deeztek.com:449/deeztek_free_mail_signup.cfm

                        Thanks


                        --
                      • James Seymour
                        Isn t this *thoroughly* off-topic for this mailing list? Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                          Isn't this *thoroughly* off-topic for this mailing list?

                          Regards,
                          Jim
                          --
                          Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam
                          filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is
                          rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my
                          web form at <http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php>.
                        • אנטולי קרסנר
                          No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix users (I also sent mail to mailing lists of other free-software mail tools). Otherwise,
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                            No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix
                            users (I also sent mail to mailing lists of other free-software mail
                            tools). Otherwise, how could I reach everybody? Believe me, I carefully
                            chose the mailing lists before I sent anything.

                            The goal is to get people to use a freedom-respecting mail service, not
                            filling their mailbox with spam :)

                            Hopefully, people who use free-software tools are interested in the
                            issues discussed...

                            - Anatoly Krasner

                            On ה', 2013-02-28 at 11:19 -0500, James Seymour wrote:
                            > Isn't this *thoroughly* off-topic for this mailing list?
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Jim
                          • Reindl Harald
                            the point is that this list is for TECHNICAL support of postfix itself, so it is for the admins which are installing, configureing and maintaining postfix
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                              the point is that this list is for TECHNICAL support
                              of postfix itself, so it is for the admins which are
                              installing, configureing and maintaining postfix
                              servers, most of them are admins for business

                              Am 28.02.2013 17:51, schrieb אנטולי קרסנר:
                              > No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix
                              > users (I also sent mail to mailing lists of other free-software mail
                              > tools). Otherwise, how could I reach everybody? Believe me, I carefully
                              > chose the mailing lists before I sent anything.
                              >
                              > The goal is to get people to use a freedom-respecting mail service, not
                              > filling their mailbox with spam :)
                              >
                              > Hopefully, people who use free-software tools are interested in the
                              > issues discussed...
                              >
                              > - Anatoly Krasner
                              >
                              > On ה', 2013-02-28 at 11:19 -0500, James Seymour wrote:
                              >> Isn't this *thoroughly* off-topic for this mailing list?
                            • James Seymour
                              On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:51:15 +0200 ... The mailing list I thought was supposed to be about Postfix, or at least vaguely Postfix-related, issues. By your logic:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:51:15 +0200
                                אנטולי קרסנר <tombackton@...> wrote:

                                > No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix
                                > users ...

                                The mailing list I thought was supposed to be about Postfix, or at
                                least vaguely Postfix-related, issues. By your logic: If I want to
                                interact with all Postfix users on the subject of motorcycle repair,
                                then it would be on-topic, because it's only Postfix users with whom I
                                wish to discuss motorcycle repair?

                                Regards,
                                Jim
                                --
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                              • M. Fioretti
                                MANDATORY DISCLAIMER: - I think this is at least partly on topic here because it s (also) about promoting postfix for free-as-in-freedom , responsible email
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                  MANDATORY DISCLAIMER:

                                  - I think this is at least partly on topic here because it's (also)
                                  about promoting postfix for "free-as-in-freedom", responsible email
                                  usage,

                                  - but personally, I don't need any of what follows. I already built
                                  nexaima.net to do it for me, and it's meant to stay that way, that
                                  is for me only

                                  On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 16:35:08 PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Am 28.02.2013 16:30, schrieb אנטולי קרסנר:
                                  > > Persoanlly, I don't have time, knowledge or money (I'm a university
                                  > > student) to setup and maintain a mail server
                                  >
                                  > and the people who have the knowledge and money do not have the time
                                  > because maintain a RELIEABLE mailserver costs a lot of time,
                                  > especially if you try to open it for everybody because you can guess
                                  > how many idiots you get as users which only abuse your service with
                                  > spam and misuse

                                  Anatoly will speak for himself, but the proposal in _my_ own posts is
                                  quite different from what you outline here.

                                  What I proposed is a VPS package, just as the ones _already "sold" by
                                  many hosting providers, that unlike those packages is not a bare-bone
                                  linux distro, but is preconfigured with SMTP/Imap server etc... in
                                  order to:

                                  1) accept incoming email only for one domain and set of users
                                  2) relay email only for THAT domain and set of users

                                  The owner of every "package" would only be responsible for the abuses
                                  of his own users. The hosting provider may impose bandwidth limits in
                                  advance. And 1 and 2 would be configurable by web interface.
                                  Basically, this is exactly the SAME thing many hosting providers
                                  already offer, just packaged in a way that it is much, much easier to
                                  migrate the whole thing to another server, in any moment, without
                                  reconfiguring everything from scratch.

                                  As to "who would fund development of this bundle": I guess the same
                                  people who "fund" Centos, Debian, Postfix and lots of other software,
                                  in the same way, for the same reasons. If there's money to be made
                                  (more or less indirectly) in hosting VPS server for WWW applications,
                                  there is also, IMO, in doing the same thing for email.

                                  Marco
                                • John Peach
                                  On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:00:58 -0500 ... +1
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                    On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:00:58 -0500
                                    James Seymour <jseymour@...> wrote:

                                    > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:51:15 +0200
                                    > אנטולי קרסנר <tombackton@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix
                                    > > users ...
                                    >
                                    > The mailing list I thought was supposed to be about Postfix, or at
                                    > least vaguely Postfix-related, issues. By your logic: If I want to
                                    > interact with all Postfix users on the subject of motorcycle repair,
                                    > then it would be on-topic, because it's only Postfix users with whom I
                                    > wish to discuss motorcycle repair?

                                    +1
                                  • Robert Schetterer
                                    ... Hi Anatoly, i like your idea, mmy meaning as you massive crossposted, you should have all info you need now There are people willing to help you, but you
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                      Am 28.02.2013 17:51, schrieb אנטולי קרסנר:
                                      > No, the mailing list is a legitimate way to connect with all postfix
                                      > users (I also sent mail to mailing lists of other free-software mail
                                      > tools). Otherwise, how could I reach everybody? Believe me, I carefully
                                      > chose the mailing lists before I sent anything.
                                      >
                                      > The goal is to get people to use a freedom-respecting mail service, not
                                      > filling their mailbox with spam :)
                                      >
                                      > Hopefully, people who use free-software tools are interested in the
                                      > issues discussed...
                                      >
                                      > - Anatoly Krasner
                                      >
                                      > On ה', 2013-02-28 at 11:19 -0500, James Seymour wrote:
                                      >> Isn't this *thoroughly* off-topic for this mailing list?
                                      >>
                                      >> Regards,
                                      >> Jim
                                      >
                                      >

                                      Hi Anatoly, i like your idea, mmy meaning
                                      as you massive crossposted, you should have all info you need now

                                      There are people willing to help you, but you should have learned
                                      massive mail services are expensive to host for logical reasons.

                                      Go now offlist contact ,and show some i.e finance plan at interested
                                      people etc.
                                      Lists are typical for solving tec stuff ( here postfix ), maybe do some
                                      blog for more issuses you want to discuss


                                      Best Regards
                                      MfG Robert Schetterer

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