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Re: Initial 220 greeting timeout

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  • Jamie Paul Griffin
    [ Stan Hoeppner Wrote On Thu 22.Nov 12 at 8:19:21 GMT ] ... Hi Stan, can I ask: what is a Snowshoe domain?
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 22, 2012
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      [ Stan Hoeppner Wrote On Thu 22.Nov'12 at 8:19:21 GMT ]

      > On 11/21/2012 7:01 PM, Alex wrote:
      >
      > > I pulled the IPs out of the logs for these 'lost connection' errors
      > > over the last 24hrs, and it does appear that there are multiple IPs in
      > > the same network losing the connection. This also doesn't really prove
      > > much, but there are cases where there are dozens of consecutive 'lost
      > > connection' errors for a single IP.
      > >
      > > I'm sure by now it's in the PBL or SBL.
      >
      > This is a bad assumption. The PBL lists dynamics/etc, not snowshoe IPs.
      > The SBL lists some snowshoe IPs, but you likely won't see a lot of
      > overlap with other IP based DNSBLs. Snowshoe is notorious for avoiding
      > traps that feed IP based DNSBLs.

      Hi Stan, can I ask: what is a "Snowshoe" domain?
    • Michael P. Demelbauer
      ... http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/10/spamhaus-vs-snowshoe-spammers/ -- Michael P. Demelbauer Systemadministration WSR Arsenal, Objekt 20 1030 Wien ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 22, 2012
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        On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 08:24:16AM +0000, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
        > Hi Stan, can I ask: what is a "Snowshoe" domain?

        http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/10/spamhaus-vs-snowshoe-spammers/
        --
        Michael P. Demelbauer
        Systemadministration
        WSR
        Arsenal, Objekt 20
        1030 Wien
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Don't go around saying the world owes you a living.
        The world owes you nothing. It was here first.
        -- Mark Twain
      • Stan Hoeppner
        ... It s a domain that wears these: http://blog.mlive.com/outdoors_impact/2009/03/large_1snowshoe07.jpg -- Stan
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 22, 2012
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          On 11/22/2012 2:24 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:

          > Hi Stan, can I ask: what is a "Snowshoe" domain?

          It's a domain that wears these:

          http://blog.mlive.com/outdoors_impact/2009/03/large_1snowshoe07.jpg

          --
          Stan
        • Alex
          Hi, ... Right, that makes sense. A spammer wouldn t have access to a consecutive block of dynamic IPs, like from a cable company or Verizon. It still could
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 22, 2012
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            Hi,

            >> I'm sure by now it's in the PBL or SBL.
            >
            > This is a bad assumption. The PBL lists dynamics/etc, not snowshoe IPs.

            Right, that makes sense. A spammer wouldn't have access to a
            consecutive block of dynamic IPs, like from a cable company or
            Verizon. It still could mean that it's listed in the PBL by now,
            though.

            >> They were later all tagged as spam, but it would definitely be nice to
            >> be blocking these outright with postscreen. I've now added an iptables
            >> rule manually, but I wish there was a way to build in some
            >> intelligence to automate it, such as with fail2ban.
            >
            > Unfortunately fail2ban doesn't work for snowshoe. The rate is
            > intentionally low, which is why snowshoe avoids most trap driven DNSBLs
            > as well.

            I have fail2ban working with dnsblog. It may not necessarily work for
            snowshoe, but it works well for repeated attempts. Just to confirm my
            understanding, dnsblog does the lookup and logging, then rejects based
            on the policy, correct? So it wouldn't be necessary filter on
            postscreen entries because it's the same IP log info as with dnsblog?

            >> Are you suggesting I increase the weight of the BRBL with postscreen?
            >
            > I don't use postscreen. I block outright in SMTPD on any DNSBL hit.
            > I.e. I don't use weighting. With any of the reputable DNSBLs you should
            > probably outright block, not score. So set postscreen weighting so any

            Okay, I've set the postscreen threshold to 1, so any hit is a reject.
            It's already dramatically increased the number of rejects.

            I've also added the reject_rhsbl_reverse_client and other rhsbl
            statements you've recommended. I decided not to bother with
            warn_if_reject and trust the DNSBLs. I realize it's doing twice as
            many DNS lookups for now. I'll also have to whitelist any false
            positive IPs in multiple places for now too.

            When I was working on this in 2010 (how the hell did you remember
            that?), my system was so old that it not only didn't support
            warn_if_reject, it didn't support any of the rhsbl statements in
            smtpd_recipient_restrictions. It was certainly pre-2.0 release I was
            using, so I wasn't able to implement any of the suggestions.

            > smtpd_recipient_restrictions =
            > ...
            > reject_rhsbl_reverse_client dbl.spamhaus.org
            > reject_rhsbl_sender dbl.spamhaus.org
            > reject_rhsbl_helo dbl.spamhaus.org
            > ...
            >
            > And in fact you asked about DNSBLS in April 2010
            > http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.mail.postfix.user/208344
            >
            > and were given all of this information then, by Ralf and myself. You
            > can also use multi.uribl.com and multi.surbl.org here, requiring a total
            > of 9 parameter entries.

            For now I've just added the spamhaus.org entries. I've added them
            after reject_unknown_recipient_domain and before check_helo_access. Is
            that correct?

            How about barracuda? I'm currently using it with postscreen.

            I think I like postscreen better than the rhsbl statements because of
            the additional features of postscreen.

            > I just noticed you don't require HELO. So you need this as well:
            >
            > smtpd_helo_required = yes
            >
            > And in fact, your current HELO based restrictions are having no effect
            > if clients don't send HELO/EHLO:
            >
            > check_helo_access pcre:/etc/postfix/helo_checks.pcre
            > reject_invalid_helo_hostname

            Okay, awesome, I've added that. I didn't even think it was possible to
            send mail without that.

            Headed off for some turkey, so for now I'll just say thanks and great
            advice about the SSD system. I'm definitely interested in building an
            SSD system, and planned on doing that early next year, once I have the
            resources from the customer.

            Thanks again,
            Alex
          • Stan Hoeppner
            ... Again, the IP in question will never be listed in the PBL. SBL maybe, PBL no. Might be time to brush up on Spamhaus various lists and their criteria. ...
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 23, 2012
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              On 11/22/2012 12:39 PM, Alex wrote:
              > Hi,
              >
              >>> I'm sure by now it's in the PBL or SBL.
              >>
              >> This is a bad assumption. The PBL lists dynamics/etc, not snowshoe IPs.
              >
              > Right, that makes sense. A spammer wouldn't have access to a
              > consecutive block of dynamic IPs, like from a cable company or
              > Verizon. It still could mean that it's listed in the PBL by now,
              > though.

              Again, the IP in question will never be listed in the PBL. SBL maybe,
              PBL no. Might be time to brush up on Spamhaus various lists and their
              criteria.

              >>> They were later all tagged as spam, but it would definitely be nice to
              >>> be blocking these outright with postscreen. I've now added an iptables
              >>> rule manually, but I wish there was a way to build in some
              >>> intelligence to automate it, such as with fail2ban.
              >>
              >> Unfortunately fail2ban doesn't work for snowshoe. The rate is
              >> intentionally low, which is why snowshoe avoids most trap driven DNSBLs
              >> as well.
              >
              > I have fail2ban working with dnsblog. It may not necessarily work for
              > snowshoe, but it works well for repeated attempts.

              Fail2ban doesn't stop spam. It merely shifts the burden of rejection
              from Postfix to the IP stack. And it won't work for snowshoe because
              you're never going to detect snowshoe with Postscreen, or any Postfix
              controls.

              > Just to confirm my
              > understanding, dnsblog does the lookup and logging, then rejects based
              > on the policy, correct? So it wouldn't be necessary filter on
              > postscreen entries because it's the same IP log info as with dnsblog?

              Someone else will need to answer this.

              >>> Are you suggesting I increase the weight of the BRBL with postscreen?
              >>
              >> I don't use postscreen. I block outright in SMTPD on any DNSBL hit.
              >> I.e. I don't use weighting. With any of the reputable DNSBLs you should
              >> probably outright block, not score. So set postscreen weighting so any
              >
              > Okay, I've set the postscreen threshold to 1, so any hit is a reject.
              > It's already dramatically increased the number of rejects.

              And decreased the load on your content filters as well, I presume, and
              likely decreased or eliminated your 220 delay issue.

              > I've also added the reject_rhsbl_reverse_client and other rhsbl
              > statements you've recommended. I decided not to bother with
              > warn_if_reject and trust the DNSBLs. I realize it's doing twice as
              > many DNS lookups for now.

              You're using SA which makes all of these same DNSBL lookups. So you're
              not doing any extra lookups, just doing them sooner in the cycle. If
              mail reaches SA its lookups are now local to your resolver, which speeds
              up SA as it doesn't have to wait for remote DNS server responses.

              > I'll also have to whitelist any false
              > positive IPs in multiple places for now too.

              RHSBL restrictions trigger on domains, not IPs. Domains that end up on
              domain based block lists or URI block lists rarely, if ever, send legit
              mail.

              > When I was working on this in 2010 (how the hell did you remember
              > that?), my system was so old that it not only didn't support
              > warn_if_reject, it didn't support any of the rhsbl statements in
              > smtpd_recipient_restrictions. It was certainly pre-2.0 release I was
              > using, so I wasn't able to implement any of the suggestions.

              It's obviously always best to stay close to current.

              >> smtpd_recipient_restrictions =
              >> ...
              >> reject_rhsbl_reverse_client dbl.spamhaus.org
              >> reject_rhsbl_sender dbl.spamhaus.org
              >> reject_rhsbl_helo dbl.spamhaus.org
              >> ...
              >>
              >> And in fact you asked about DNSBLS in April 2010
              >> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.mail.postfix.user/208344
              >>
              >> and were given all of this information then, by Ralf and myself. You
              >> can also use multi.uribl.com and multi.surbl.org here, requiring a total
              >> of 9 parameter entries.
              >
              > For now I've just added the spamhaus.org entries. I've added them
              > after reject_unknown_recipient_domain and before check_helo_access. Is
              > that correct?

              I always put my least expensive restrictions first and most expensive
              last. So inbuilt Postfix checks go first, then local table checks, then
              DNSBL lookups, then content filters.

              > How about barracuda? I'm currently using it with postscreen.

              Set it to reject outright (which I believe you already have) and you're
              done.

              > I think I like postscreen better than the rhsbl statements because of
              > the additional features of postscreen.

              Fuzzy dice hang'n on your mirror don't make the car go faster. If you
              find that you *need* weighting of RHS domain rejection decisions due to
              high FPs (which I doubt), then you can use postfwd or policyd for
              weighting. Keep in mind policy servers are much slower than Postfix
              smtpd restrictions, but faster than content filters. Thus it's always
              best to reject with inbuilt Postfix restrictions if you can, on a busy
              server.

              >> I just noticed you don't require HELO. So you need this as well:
              >>
              >> smtpd_helo_required = yes
              >>
              >> And in fact, your current HELO based restrictions are having no effect
              >> if clients don't send HELO/EHLO:
              >>
              >> check_helo_access pcre:/etc/postfix/helo_checks.pcre
              >> reject_invalid_helo_hostname
              >
              > Okay, awesome, I've added that. I didn't even think it was possible to
              > send mail without that.

              I'm not sure if the latest SMTP RFC requires HELO/EHLO or not.
              Regardless, you should enforce it or your HELO checks may be worthless.

              > Headed off for some turkey,

              Hope you didn't gain 10 pounds like many of us. :)

              > so for now I'll just say thanks and great
              > advice about the SSD system. I'm definitely interested in building an
              > SSD system, and planned on doing that early next year, once I have the
              > resources from the customer.

              Prices should be a little lower by then as well, at least for the SSDs.
              The RAID card prices may not move much. SSD simply makes soo much
              sense for a mail gateway. You never have to worry about a queue IO
              bottleneck again.

              > Thanks again,

              Always glad to help.

              --
              Stan
            • Alex
              Stan, ... Yes, I didn t fully understand that dynamics aren t listed in the PBL. ... I thought the IP layer would be more efficient than filtering it at the
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 27, 2012
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                Stan,

                >> Right, that makes sense. A spammer wouldn't have access to a
                >> consecutive block of dynamic IPs, like from a cable company or
                >> Verizon. It still could mean that it's listed in the PBL by now,
                >> though.
                >
                > Again, the IP in question will never be listed in the PBL. SBL maybe,
                > PBL no. Might be time to brush up on Spamhaus various lists and their
                > criteria.

                Yes, I didn't fully understand that dynamics aren't listed in the PBL.

                >> I have fail2ban working with dnsblog. It may not necessarily work for
                >> snowshoe, but it works well for repeated attempts.
                >
                > Fail2ban doesn't stop spam. It merely shifts the burden of rejection
                > from Postfix to the IP stack. And it won't work for snowshoe because
                > you're never going to detect snowshoe with Postscreen, or any Postfix
                > controls.

                I thought the IP layer would be more efficient than filtering it at
                the postfix application layer, and also would then not have to
                specifically worry about whether it was part of a snowshoe botnet or a
                single hacked IP.

                >> Okay, I've set the postscreen threshold to 1, so any hit is a reject.
                >> It's already dramatically increased the number of rejects.
                >
                > And decreased the load on your content filters as well, I presume, and
                > likely decreased or eliminated your 220 delay issue.

                Yes, I haven't seen any further indication of 220 delay issues. I also
                still have a few too many header checks that I'll be purging.

                >> I've also added the reject_rhsbl_reverse_client and other rhsbl
                >> statements you've recommended. I decided not to bother with
                >> warn_if_reject and trust the DNSBLs. I realize it's doing twice as
                >> many DNS lookups for now.
                >
                > You're using SA which makes all of these same DNSBL lookups. So you're
                > not doing any extra lookups, just doing them sooner in the cycle. If
                > mail reaches SA its lookups are now local to your resolver, which speeds
                > up SA as it doesn't have to wait for remote DNS server responses.

                I meant that if I kept postscreen running, I would have the lookups there too.

                >> I think I like postscreen better than the rhsbl statements because of
                >> the additional features of postscreen.
                >
                > Fuzzy dice hang'n on your mirror don't make the car go faster. If you
                > find that you *need* weighting of RHS domain rejection decisions due to
                > high FPs (which I doubt), then you can use postfwd or policyd for
                > weighting. Keep in mind policy servers are much slower than Postfix
                > smtpd restrictions, but faster than content filters. Thus it's always
                > best to reject with inbuilt Postfix restrictions if you can, on a busy
                > server.

                I meant that postscreen has extra functionality such as the protocol
                tests before and after the 220 greeting.

                > Prices should be a little lower by then as well, at least for the SSDs.
                > The RAID card prices may not move much. SSD simply makes soo much
                > sense for a mail gateway. You never have to worry about a queue IO
                > bottleneck again.

                I've actually given more thought to doing this sooner on the secondary
                box. However, I can't find any 3.5" SSD SATA disks that will fit in my
                existing 1U SATA chassis. Any ideas? Here's the newegg link you sent:

                http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167120

                I thought I could use the existing SATA controller on board with the
                Linux md RAID5.

                Thanks,
                Alex
              • Stan Hoeppner
                ... Dynamics are 95+% of what s listed in the PBL: I am an ISP. I don t want my dynamic/dial-up users sending spam via infection. I contact Spamhaus and say
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 27, 2012
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                  On 11/27/2012 2:51 PM, Alex wrote:
                  > Stan,
                  >
                  >>> Right, that makes sense. A spammer wouldn't have access to a
                  >>> consecutive block of dynamic IPs, like from a cable company or
                  >>> Verizon. It still could mean that it's listed in the PBL by now,
                  >>> though.
                  >>
                  >> Again, the IP in question will never be listed in the PBL. SBL maybe,
                  >> PBL no. Might be time to brush up on Spamhaus various lists and their
                  >> criteria.
                  >
                  > Yes, I didn't fully understand that dynamics aren't listed in the PBL.

                  Dynamics are 95+% of what's listed in the PBL:

                  I am an ISP. I don't want my dynamic/dial-up users sending spam via
                  infection. I contact Spamhaus and say "Please add this /16 to the PBL.
                  These IPs should never send direct SMTP mail." This is why it's called
                  the "Policy Block List". It's network owner policy that decides what is
                  listed. In some cases Spamhaus adds entries without being contacted by
                  network operators when it is clear a network is dynamic and bot spam is
                  spewing.

                  The SBL is where you'll find snowshoe IPs listed by Spamhaus.

                  >>> I have fail2ban working with dnsblog. It may not necessarily work for
                  >>> snowshoe, but it works well for repeated attempts.
                  >>
                  >> Fail2ban doesn't stop spam. It merely shifts the burden of rejection
                  >> from Postfix to the IP stack. And it won't work for snowshoe because
                  >> you're never going to detect snowshoe with Postscreen, or any Postfix
                  >> controls.
                  >
                  > I thought the IP layer would be more efficient than filtering it at
                  > the postfix application layer, and also would then not have to
                  > specifically worry about whether it was part of a snowshoe botnet or a
                  > single hacked IP.

                  Dropping SMTP packets should be done with care. If you FP on an email
                  to the CEO and he comes asking, giving you a sender address, you have no
                  way to track it down in logs. The CPU overhead of rejecting with
                  Postscreen or smtpd is absolutely tiny, especially compared to a run
                  through SA, and in the big picture is not much more than dropping
                  packets. Postfix rejections occur in a few microseconds to milliseconds
                  on modern hardware.

                  If you're going to drop packets make sure you know the IP send nothing
                  but spam. Case in point, many SOHOs and small biz have their Exchange
                  server and PCs behind the same NAT'd IP and don't do egress filtering on
                  TCP 25. If they get a bot infection and you autoban the NAT'd IP you're
                  now killing all their legit mail. Again, do SMTP packet dropping with
                  care. This means doing it manually for known bad hosts/networks. Or,
                  don't do it at all.

                  >>> Okay, I've set the postscreen threshold to 1, so any hit is a reject.
                  >>> It's already dramatically increased the number of rejects.
                  >>
                  >> And decreased the load on your content filters as well, I presume, and
                  >> likely decreased or eliminated your 220 delay issue.
                  >
                  > Yes, I haven't seen any further indication of 220 delay issues. I also
                  > still have a few too many header checks that I'll be purging.

                  Header checks aren't usually an overhead problem unless you have many
                  hundreds or thousands of them. Body checks are more of a concern.
                  Neither eat CPU anything like SA.

                  >>> I've also added the reject_rhsbl_reverse_client and other rhsbl
                  >>> statements you've recommended. I decided not to bother with
                  >>> warn_if_reject and trust the DNSBLs. I realize it's doing twice as
                  >>> many DNS lookups for now.
                  >>
                  >> You're using SA which makes all of these same DNSBL lookups. So you're
                  >> not doing any extra lookups, just doing them sooner in the cycle. If
                  >> mail reaches SA its lookups are now local to your resolver, which speeds
                  >> up SA as it doesn't have to wait for remote DNS server responses.
                  >
                  > I meant that if I kept postscreen running, I would have the lookups there too.

                  Again, adding reject_rhsbl_foo_client adds no additional queries because
                  you are using Spamassassin, which also performs these same queries. The
                  dnsbl queries you are doing in Postscreen are also duplicated by SA. So
                  again, you have no additional net queries.

                  >>> I think I like postscreen better than the rhsbl statements because of
                  >>> the additional features of postscreen.
                  >>
                  >> Fuzzy dice hang'n on your mirror don't make the car go faster. If you
                  >> find that you *need* weighting of RHS domain rejection decisions due to
                  >> high FPs (which I doubt), then you can use postfwd or policyd for
                  >> weighting. Keep in mind policy servers are much slower than Postfix
                  >> smtpd restrictions, but faster than content filters. Thus it's always
                  >> best to reject with inbuilt Postfix restrictions if you can, on a busy
                  >> server.
                  >
                  > I meant that postscreen has extra functionality such as the protocol
                  > tests before and after the 220 greeting.

                  You seem to be mistakenly looking at these sets of Postfix features as
                  competitive instead of cooperative. They are a layered defense, and
                  Postscreen is the point man. The features you mention here are
                  zombie/bot specific, and thus only exist in Postscreen. RHSBL tests
                  only appear in SMTPD. There is some feature overlap in Postscreen due
                  to user demand.

                  I think it would greatly benefit you to actually read the Postscreen
                  documentation which explains all of this in detail:
                  http://www.postfix.org/POSTSCREEN_README.html

                  >> Prices should be a little lower by then as well, at least for the SSDs.
                  >> The RAID card prices may not move much. SSD simply makes soo much
                  >> sense for a mail gateway. You never have to worry about a queue IO
                  >> bottleneck again.
                  >
                  > I've actually given more thought to doing this sooner on the secondary
                  > box. However, I can't find any 3.5" SSD SATA disks that will fit in my
                  > existing 1U SATA chassis. Any ideas? Here's the newegg link you sent:

                  Yes. You use the included 2.5 to 3.5 adapter clearly shown in the pictures.

                  > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167120
                  >
                  > I thought I could use the existing SATA controller on board with the
                  > Linux md RAID5.

                  Using the onboard Southbridge SATA controller and software vs hardware
                  RAID is up to you. I prefer hardware RAID solutions for many reasons
                  that have been covered by myself and others many times. Either way your
                  desire to use RAID5 baffles me, and likely most others here. Parity
                  RAID has ZERO upside and a long list of downsides for transactional
                  workloads. A single SSD gives you the IOPS and capacity you need. A
                  mirror adds redundancy.

                  Using RAID5 simply adds the cost of a 3rd drive, slows down your IO due
                  to RMW cycles, increases initialization and rebuild time, etc, etc. And
                  with md/RAID5, a sufficiently high IO rate on only 3 SSDs can eat one
                  entire CPU core in overhead because the writer is a single kernel thread
                  (patches to fix this threading bottleneck have been submitted but won't
                  be available in distro kernels for many months to years).

                  Whether you do hardware or software RAID, do yourself a favor and use 2
                  mirrored SSDs. You can't need more than 60GB for a queue device, if
                  1/3rd of that. And you'll avoid many potential headaches of RAID5.

                  --
                  Stan
                • Alex
                  Hi, ... Thanks for the explanation. Trying to do too many things at once. You probably think I m an idiot by now. ... I meant as it relates to blocking by
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2012
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                    Hi,

                    >>> Again, the IP in question will never be listed in the PBL. SBL maybe,
                    >>> PBL no. Might be time to brush up on Spamhaus various lists and their
                    >>> criteria.
                    >>
                    >> Yes, I didn't fully understand that dynamics aren't listed in the PBL.
                    ...
                    > The SBL is where you'll find snowshoe IPs listed by Spamhaus.

                    Thanks for the explanation. Trying to do too many things at once. You
                    probably think I'm an idiot by now.

                    > Dropping SMTP packets should be done with care. If you FP on an email
                    > to the CEO and he comes asking, giving you a sender address, you have no

                    I meant as it relates to blocking by spamhaus or barracuda. From an FP
                    perspective, that doesn't affect it either way. Perhaps the audit
                    trail is a little better with just letting postscreen continue to
                    block it rather than fail2ban, however.

                    > If you're going to drop packets make sure you know the IP send nothing
                    > but spam. Case in point, many SOHOs and small biz have their Exchange

                    Yes, I'm only using it on IPs that have already been confirmed to be
                    blacklisted, of course.

                    > care. This means doing it manually for known bad hosts/networks. Or,
                    > don't do it at all.

                    I've got stories to tell there. Another day, though.

                    > Header checks aren't usually an overhead problem unless you have many
                    > hundreds or thousands of them. Body checks are more of a concern.
                    > Neither eat CPU anything like SA.

                    I'd say I had a few hundred. Dumped some of the old ones, and had them
                    there instead of SA for just that reason.

                    >> I meant that if I kept postscreen running, I would have the lookups there too.
                    >
                    > Again, adding reject_rhsbl_foo_client adds no additional queries because
                    > you are using Spamassassin, which also performs these same queries. The
                    > dnsbl queries you are doing in Postscreen are also duplicated by SA. So
                    > again, you have no additional net queries.

                    Assuming the rhsbl fails in postfix, then SA processes it, doesn't
                    that two queries for the same rhsbl entry?

                    > I think it would greatly benefit you to actually read the Postscreen
                    > documentation which explains all of this in detail:
                    > http://www.postfix.org/POSTSCREEN_README.html

                    I've read it again, but my confusion was with reading about
                    reject_rhsbl statements, and forgetting they're domain, not IP based.

                    >> I've actually given more thought to doing this sooner on the secondary
                    >> box. However, I can't find any 3.5" SSD SATA disks that will fit in my
                    >> existing 1U SATA chassis. Any ideas? Here's the newegg link you sent:
                    >
                    > Yes. You use the included 2.5 to 3.5 adapter clearly shown in the pictures.

                    Unfortunately it's not that easy. You would think it would be that
                    easy, but somehow I knew there would be complications. I investigated
                    this, and it's just a tray to make it fit in a 3.5" bay, such what
                    you'd find in a desktop PC.

                    Looking at the picture, it just didn't seem right. I actually called
                    Intel, and I explained to them I had a 1U chassis and needed to be
                    able to put this 2.5" disk in the tray where normally a 3.5" disk is
                    used. He told me what you thought -- that the tray would work for
                    that, even though I knew there was no way it would.

                    I ordered two of the 60GB 520 series disks instead of the ones you
                    mentioned -- better warranty and faster. They arrived on Friday, and
                    sure enough, it's just a metal frame to put it in a desktop, not a 1U
                    chassis.

                    So, considering they generate no heat and take up no space, I'm
                    thinking of using velco inside the case. We'll see how that goes.

                    > Using the onboard Southbridge SATA controller and software vs hardware
                    > RAID is up to you. I prefer hardware RAID solutions for many reasons
                    > that have been covered by myself and others many times. Either way your

                    I would never use the onboard SATA controller. That's crap.

                    I have great faith in Neil Brown and his md code :-) I've lost a few
                    software arrays over the years, but have always found them reliable
                    and better supported in Linux. I've also used the battery-backed
                    hardware RAID in the past, which is nice too.

                    > Using RAID5 simply adds the cost of a 3rd drive, slows down your IO due
                    > to RMW cycles, increases initialization and rebuild time, etc, etc. And
                    > with md/RAID5, a sufficiently high IO rate on only 3 SSDs can eat one
                    > entire CPU core in overhead because the writer is a single kernel thread

                    Yes, there's no debating an SSD would be preferred in all situations.
                    When this was built, we used four SATA3 disks with 64MB cache and
                    RAID5 because the system was so fast already that the extra expense
                    wasn't necessary.

                    I also wasn't as familiar and hadn't as extensively tested the RAID10
                    config, but will sure use it for the mailstore system I'm building
                    next.

                    Thanks again,
                    Alex
                  • Stan Hoeppner
                    ... You re welcome. I understand that completely. No, not at all. ... Yeah, with fail2ban you don t really have no audit trail at all. Keep in mind that
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 12/2/2012 1:20 PM, Alex wrote:

                      > Thanks for the explanation. Trying to do too many things at once. You
                      > probably think I'm an idiot by now.

                      You're welcome. I understand that completely. No, not at all.

                      >> Dropping SMTP packets should be done with care. If you FP on an email
                      >> to the CEO and he comes asking, giving you a sender address, you have no
                      >
                      > I meant as it relates to blocking by spamhaus or barracuda. From an FP
                      > perspective, that doesn't affect it either way. Perhaps the audit
                      > trail is a little better with just letting postscreen continue to
                      > block it rather than fail2ban, however.

                      Yeah, with fail2ban you don't really have no audit trail at all. Keep
                      in mind that legit senders can wind up on trap driven lists. Both Zen
                      and BRBL expire listings when the IPs are no longer emitting for X
                      period of time. So if you feed DNSBL rejected IPs to it you should set
                      some kind of expiry period.

                      > Yes, I'm only using it on IPs that have already been confirmed to be
                      > blacklisted, of course.

                      See above.

                      > I'd say I had a few hundred. Dumped some of the old ones, and had them
                      > there instead of SA for just that reason.

                      This is a double edged sword: if you hit with header_checks you save SA
                      CPU time. If you miss you've added extra CPU time on top of SA. But
                      given you have a 4 core machine, IIRC, CPU shouldn't be much concern,
                      even with the relatively high msg rate you have.

                      > Assuming the rhsbl fails in postfix, then SA processes it, doesn't
                      > that two queries for the same rhsbl entry?

                      When I say "query" I'm talking about those that come with cost, i.e.
                      external to your network, with latency. The 2nd DNS query in this case,
                      SA, is answered by your local caching resolver, thus no cost.

                      > I've read it again, but my confusion was with reading about
                      > reject_rhsbl statements, and forgetting they're domain, not IP based.

                      Yes, postscreen has but a fraction of the rejection parameters/types
                      available in SMTPD. All of the domain based rejections are SMTPD only.

                      > Unfortunately it's not that easy. You would think it would be that
                      > easy, but somehow I knew there would be complications. I investigated
                      > this, and it's just a tray to make it fit in a 3.5" bay, such what
                      > you'd find in a desktop PC.
                      >
                      > Looking at the picture, it just didn't seem right. I actually called
                      > Intel, and I explained to them I had a 1U chassis and needed to be
                      > able to put this 2.5" disk in the tray where normally a 3.5" disk is
                      > used. He told me what you thought -- that the tray would work for
                      > that, even though I knew there was no way it would.
                      >
                      > I ordered two of the 60GB 520 series disks instead of the ones you
                      > mentioned -- better warranty and faster. They arrived on Friday, and
                      > sure enough, it's just a metal frame to put it in a desktop, not a 1U
                      > chassis.
                      >
                      > So, considering they generate no heat and take up no space, I'm
                      > thinking of using velco inside the case. We'll see how that goes.

                      Don't do that. Send me the make/model# and/or a picture of link to the
                      manufacturer product page. Is this a tier one chassis? I.e. HP, Dell,
                      IBM, etc? Once I see the drive cage arrangement I can point you to
                      exactly what you need. However, if the chassis has hot swap 3.5" SATA
                      bays then the adapter should allow you mount the SSD in the carrier with
                      perfect interface mating to the backplane.

                      > I would never use the onboard SATA controller. That's crap.

                      Not all of them are crap. Many yes, but not all. This depends a bit on
                      what capabilities you need. If you don't need expander or PMP support
                      the list of decent ones is larger. If your board has an integrated
                      LSISAS 1064/68/78 or 2008/2108 then you're golden for mdraid.

                      > I have great faith in Neil Brown and his md code :-) I've lost a few
                      > software arrays over the years, but have always found them reliable
                      > and better supported in Linux. I've also used the battery-backed
                      > hardware RAID in the past, which is nice too.

                      There's nothing inherently wrong with mdraid. As long as one knows its
                      limitations and works around them, or doesn't have a configuration or
                      workload that will bump into said limitations, then you should be fine.

                      > Yes, there's no debating an SSD would be preferred in all situations.
                      > When this was built, we used four SATA3 disks with 64MB cache and
                      > RAID5 because the system was so fast already that the extra expense
                      > wasn't necessary.

                      And this is one of the disadvantages of mdraid in absence of a BBWC
                      controller. For filesystem and data safety, drive caches should never
                      be enabled, which murders mdraid write performance, especially RAID5/6.
                      If your UPS burps, or with some kernel panic/crash scenarios, you lose
                      the contents of the write cache in the drives, possibly resulting in
                      filesystem corruption and lost data. Mounting a filesystem with write
                      barriers enabled helps a bit. If you use a BBWC controller you only
                      lose what's in flight in the Linux buffer cache. In this case, with a
                      journaling FS, the filesystem won't be corrupted. With mdraid, vanilla
                      controller, and drive caches enabled, you'll almost certainly get some
                      FS corruption.

                      > I also wasn't as familiar and hadn't as extensively tested the RAID10
                      > config, but will sure use it for the mailstore system I'm building
                      > next.

                      With SSD if you use anything other than 2 drive mirroring (RAID1) you're
                      wasting money and needlessly increasing overhead, unless you need more
                      capacity than a mirror pair provides. In that case you'd concatenate
                      mirror pairs as this method is infinitely expandable, whereas mdraid0/10
                      cannot be expanded, and concat gives better random IO performance than
                      striping for small file (mail) workloads. Note these comments are SSD
                      specific and filesystem agnostic.

                      The concat of mirrors only yields high performance with rust if you're
                      using XFS, and have precisely calculated allocation group size and
                      number of allocation groups so that each is wholly contained on a single
                      mirror pair. This XFS concat setup is a bit of a black art. If you
                      want to know more about it I can instruct you off list.

                      Now if you're using rust, as in a mail store where SSD is cost
                      prohibitive given capacity needs, then a properly configured RAID10 is
                      generally the best option for most people (and with any FS other than
                      XFS). It gives the best random write performance, good random read
                      performance, and far lower rebuild time than parity arrays. Most people
                      don't appreciate this last point until they have to rebuild, say, an 8x
                      7.2K 1TB drive RAID6 array on a busy production mail store server and it
                      takes half a day or longer, increasing latency for all users. With a
                      concat of mirrors and XFS, when rebuilding a failed drive, only those
                      users whose mailboxes reside on that mirror pair will have increased
                      latency, because this setup automatically spreads all mailboxes
                      relatively evenly across all mirrors. Think of it as file level
                      striping across disks, or more correctly, directory level striping.
                      Such a setup is perfect for maildir mailboxes or Dovecot m/dbox.

                      --
                      Stan
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