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Re: Running on idle systems

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  • Wietse Venema
    ... I just checked: this code works fine on FreeBSD, and I expect no surprises on Linux. With this, there are no write operations under the public
    Message 1 of 23 , May 1 6:43 AM
      Wietse Venema:
      > 3) Instead of changing the file system layout, we could change
      > master.cf to use "unix" instead of "fifo" endpoints for the queue
      > manager and pickup services. The reason for using FIFOs is that
      > Solaris 2.4 UNIX-domain sockets locked up the kernel during
      > Postfix tests (the change to FIFOs then exposed bugs in several
      > 4.4BSD implementations, but I disgress).
      >
      > To this date, both the trigger client (used in postdrop and cleanup)
      > and trigger server (used in qmgr and pickup) contain code for
      > UNIX-domain sockets. This code has not been tested in 12 years,
      > so minor updates are likely needed. But the benefit of this is
      > that there are no visible changes except four bytes in master.cf.

      I just checked: this code works fine on FreeBSD, and I expect no
      surprises on Linux.

      With this, there are no "write" operations under the "public"
      directory once Postfix has been started, so the disk should
      not spin up due to mtime changes.

      However, this can't be used on Solaris until it can be demonstrated
      that their UNIX-domain sockets are up to the job (and even then,
      one has to allow for the existence of Solaris systems that do
      not run the latest and greatest. So I will be stuck supporting
      multiple IPC models.

      Wietse

      > I would prefer the third solution, as it introduces no external
      > dependencies on boot scripts to mount and populate spool/postfix/run,
      > and it introduces no visible changes to the file system layout.
      >
      > > I'm fine to change postfix-files locally so it looks at
      > > run/pid etc instead of pid, but that appears to be a bit
      > > ugly...
      >
      > I don't understand why this is needed at all. On my own systems,
      > "ls -lat /var/spool/postfix/pid" shows that there are no writes to
      > the directory itself or to any files in that directory after the
      > mail system has started up.
      >
      > Wietse
      >
    • Michael Tokarev
      ... By default these dirs -- /var/spool/postfix/run/{pid,private,public} - should be created at install time just like now these dirs are create in
      Message 2 of 23 , May 1 11:53 AM
        On 01.05.2012 17:09, Wietse Venema wrote:
        > Michael Tokarev:
        >> The "trick" I use with postfix for a long time locally
        >> to address this issue is to mount a tmpfs on linux on
        >> /var/spool/postfix/run, create subdirs (pid, public,
        >> private) there [...]
        >>
        >> So, the question is: can postfix change the paths so
        >> that all these "runtime" dirs are in a single subdir
        >> (as run/pid, run/public, run/private) - that is changing
        >> 3 strings in postfix code (and postfix-files) and adding
        >> one extra line into postfix-files, -- in order to simplify
        >> such a setup ?
        >
        > Sounds reasonable. However, this is not the only option.
        >
        > 1) Mounting tmpfs over a mail queue subdirectory introduces additional
        > dependency (something needs to mount and populate spool/run
        > before any Postfix program is allowed to execute) otherwise there
        > will be surprises when a Postfix program needs to be executed
        > before everything is up and running (for example, when some boot
        > script wants to submit mail about saved editor buffers, this
        > will result in "postdrop: warning: unable to look up public/pickup:
        > No such file or directory"). Normally, a missing "public/pickup"
        > directory is a sign of major trouble (no mail will ever be picked
        > up). This would violate one basic Postfix principle, which is
        > that it must be able to submit mail at any time even before all
        > daemons are up and running.

        By default these dirs -- /var/spool/postfix/run/{pid,private,public} -
        should be created at install time just like now these dirs are create
        in /var/spool/postfix. The only change I'm asking about is to move
        the "runtime" directories into a subdir (suggesting to name it "run"),
        I don't ask to mount anything in there or to create these on boot.

        With this scheme, all default installs will be functional just like
        now, but the option to mount some tmpfs over /var/spool/postfix/run
        _and_ create {pid,private,public} subdirs in there will be easier.

        That's whole difference: just moving these 3 into a subdir, to
        group them together, all the rest remains the same.

        This change does not add any additional external dependency. Only
        when some separate filesystem gets mounted over there, only in that
        case something should create the subdirs inside, and this "something"
        can be the same which did the mount.

        > 2) We could wait until all commodity boxes have solid-state drives.
        > SSDs have many desirable properties and prices are coming down.

        This question has been asked in context of SSDs too, like, it is a
        good idea to avoid extra writes to SSD. I've no idea how reliable
        these beasts are, actually, - reports varies greatly, probably as
        with everything else, there are cheaper less reliable models and
        more expensive, but more reliable. I dunno, I never used any SSD
        myself so far.

        > 3) Instead of changing the file system layout, we could change
        > master.cf to use "unix" instead of "fifo" endpoints for the queue
        > manager and pickup services. The reason for using FIFOs is that
        > Solaris 2.4 UNIX-domain sockets locked up the kernel during
        > Postfix tests (the change to FIFOs then exposed bugs in several
        > 4.4BSD implementations, but I disgress).

        Yes, I remember that change to work around an issue on solaris.

        After all, this can be a compile-time option in sys_defs.h. I
        think I suggested just that when the original bug has been
        identified, but I don't remember why FIFO has been choosen
        unconditionally -- most likely because it just works everywhere.

        But I know you dislike partial solutions - me dislikes them too :)

        > I would prefer the third solution, as it introduces no external
        > dependencies on boot scripts to mount and populate spool/postfix/run,
        > and it introduces no visible changes to the file system layout.
        >
        >> I'm fine to change postfix-files locally so it looks at
        >> run/pid etc instead of pid, but that appears to be a bit
        >> ugly...
        >
        > I don't understand why this is needed at all. On my own systems,
        > "ls -lat /var/spool/postfix/pid" shows that there are no writes to
        > the directory itself or to any files in that directory after the
        > mail system has started up.

        Note the word "etc" after run/pid. I added all 3 "runtime" dirs into
        the mix -- pid, private, public -- the directories where the files
        makes any sense at all till postfix is running _only_. Files in
        there does not exist, so to say, when it is not running - even if
        formally corresponding inodes do exist.

        This is exactly the case for /var/run directory, and nowadays it
        become quite common to use some tmpfs for this directory - one of
        the reasons is a problem of pid boot files after fresh boot (or,
        you may say it is a problem of stupid startup scripts who does not
        verify that the pid listed in a pidfile actually correspond to our
        daemon and not some other random process - but tmpfs on /var/run
        makes this problem go away completely).

        That's why I grouped all 3 "runtime" dirs together in my setup and
        moved them into a tmpfs - there's just no reason for them to be in
        a regular filesystem which preserves content over reboots. Yes
        it is obviously not necessary to do this just to stop the filesystem
        writes and spinning up disks.

        Besides, the same effect can be achieved by using subdirs of "pid"
        directory for private and public dirs, -- ie, instead of

        run/pid, run/private, run/public

        it is equally easy to have

        pid, pid/private, pid/public

        since files in pid/ does not clash with names "private" and "public".
        This way, filesystem layout changes less, but that's unimportant
        details.

        And yes, I verified the socket code (instead of pipe code) on linux
        a few days ago and it appears to work fine there too. So indeed, this
        is a very good possibility too, but it does not cover solaris well.

        Thanks,

        /mjt
      • Postfix Support Mail
        I m currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking about postscreen, which I hadn t considered before. What are the pros and cons of one
        Message 3 of 23 , May 1 12:14 PM
          I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking
          about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.

          What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there advantages of
          one over the other for a given application?

          --Mac
        • karavelov@mail.bg
          ... They use different, complementing strategies to fight spam. We currently run both of them (postscreen, greylisting) with great success. Another greylisting
          Message 4 of 23 , May 1 12:25 PM
            ----- Цитат от Postfix Support Mail (postfixsm@...), на 01.05.2012 в 22:14 -----

            > I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking
            > about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.
            >
            > What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there advantages of
            > one over the other for a given application?
            >
            > --Mac


            They use different, complementing strategies to fight spam. We currently run
            both of them (postscreen, greylisting) with great success.

            Another greylisting server that uses memcached as a backend and is written for
            postfix could be found here:
            https://github.com/luben/postfix-utils


            --
            Luben Karavelov
          • Noel Jones
            ... Please don t hijack threads. Start a new message instead of changing the subject of an existing message. Postgrey and postscreen do different things.
            Message 5 of 23 , May 1 12:28 PM
              postfixsm@...:
              > I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking
              > about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.
              >
              > What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there advantages of
              > one over the other for a given application?
              >
              > --Mac

              Please don't hijack threads. Start a new message instead of
              changing the subject of an existing message.

              Postgrey and postscreen do different things. After you read up on
              them, you may want both.

              http://www.postfix.org/POSTSCREEN_README.html
              http://postgrey.schweikert.ch/



              -- Noel Jones
            • Postfix Support Mail
              Sorry about that. Reading the postscreen readme is what spawned the question. ## -----Original Message----- ## From: Noel Jones
              Message 6 of 23 , May 1 12:42 PM
                Sorry about that.

                Reading the postscreen readme is what spawned the question.

                ## >> -----Original Message-----
                ## >> From: Noel Jones [mailto:njones@...]
                ## >> Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2012 12:29
                ## >> To: postfix users; postfixsm@...
                ## >> Subject: Re: postgrey vs postscreen
                ## >>
                ## >> postfixsm@...:
                ## >> > I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me
                ## >> > thinking about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.
                ## >> >
                ## >> > What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there
                ## >> > advantages of one over the other for a given application?
                ## >> >
                ## >> > --Mac
                ## >>
                ## >> Please don't hijack threads. Start a new message instead
                ## >> of changing the subject of an existing message.
                ## >>
                ## >> Postgrey and postscreen do different things. After you
                ## >> read up on them, you may want both.
                ## >>
                ## >> http://www.postfix.org/POSTSCREEN_README.html
                ## >> http://postgrey.schweikert.ch/
                ## >>
                ## >>
                ## >>
                ## >> -- Noel Jones
              • Wietse Venema
                Michael Tokarev: [using unix instead of fifo ] ... The preferred pickup/qmgr IPC type (fifo or unix) can be a main.cf parameter setting (with an
                Message 7 of 23 , May 1 1:14 PM
                  Michael Tokarev:
                  [using "unix" instead of "fifo"]
                  > And yes, I verified the socket code (instead of pipe code) on linux
                  > a few days ago and it appears to work fine there too. So indeed, this
                  > is a very good possibility too, but it does not cover solaris well.

                  The preferred pickup/qmgr IPC type (fifo or unix) can be a main.cf
                  parameter setting (with an OS-dependent default value, e.g., fifo
                  for Solaris and unix for everything else), and post-install can be
                  updated to edit master.cf accordingly.

                  This solves the "idle" mtime update problem a manner that is 100%
                  maintainable. It involves adding one configuration parameter to
                  main.cf, and adding a few lines to post-install that edit master.cf
                  accordingly.

                  > By default these dirs -- /var/spool/postfix/run/{pid,private,public} -
                  > should be created at install time just like now these dirs are create
                  > in /var/spool/postfix. The only change I'm asking about is to move
                  > the "runtime" directories into a subdir (suggesting to name it "run"),
                  > I don't ask to mount anything in there or to create these on boot.

                  Sorry, that is not how Postfix is maintained.

                  All aspects of Postfix are meant to be for general use, so that
                  they are widely used, so that they can be routinely tested during
                  development, so that they can be properly supported, and so that
                  they don't break as Postfix evolves.

                  Also, mounting stuff over Postfix directories breaks the basic model
                  of how Postfix manages its files, and I definitely don't want some
                  (Linux) distro maintainer to pick up on the idea. I have enough
                  work on my hands to deal with damage control of (Linux) distro
                  maintainers.

                  [empty run directory]
                  You seem to believe that Postfix IPC endpoints don't need to exist
                  while Postfix is not running.

                  > the mix -- pid, private, public -- the directories where the files
                  > makes any sense at all till postfix is running _only_. Files in
                  > there does not exist, so to say, when it is not running - even if
                  > formally corresponding inodes do exist.

                  That is incorrect.

                  For example, the postdrop program will produce a warning message
                  if the public/pickup node does not exist. By design this program
                  MUST be able to run without errors while NO Postfix daemons are
                  running. Normally, a missing public/pickup node is a sign of great
                  trouble (mail would be queued forever) and it would therefore be
                  wrong to shut up the error message.

                  > [waiting for SSD to become a commodity product]

                  An SSD has a write cycle limit of a million times or so. It should
                  last forever with one mtime update per 5 minutes.

                  Wietse
                • Michael Orlitzky
                  ... If you enable the deep protocol tests, postscreen works pretty much like greylisting since it will 4xx any client that passes. When they reconnect, they
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 1 4:29 PM
                    On 05/01/2012 03:42 PM, Postfix Support Mail wrote:
                    > Sorry about that.
                    >
                    > Reading the postscreen readme is what spawned the question.
                    >

                    If you enable the deep protocol tests, postscreen works pretty much like
                    greylisting since it will 4xx any client that passes. When they
                    reconnect, they skip postscreen entirely; in effect, they've passed
                    greylisting.

                    Postgrey is a little more configurable (re: greylisting), and its
                    introduction is less intrusive than switching will be. If you have to
                    support older versions of postfix (sans postscreen), it also allows you
                    to consolidate your configurations.

                    On the other hand, I trust the postscreen code to be of the same
                    quality as the rest of postfix. Postscreen does provide some additional
                    anti-spam measures and reduces the load on your system. Finally, when
                    all's said and done, you've got one less[1] moving part to worry about.

                    Perhaps my favorite benefit is that with postscreen, we can afford the
                    resources to use a pre-queue content filter. Now senders get a rejection
                    if we e.g. detect a virus in their message. This greatly reduces the
                    amount of time I have to spend on the phone.

                    I would recommend switching eventually.


                    [1] Technically there are probably more, but let's say "logical" moving
                    parts.
                  • Terry Barnum
                    ... Mac, I made the switch to postscreen about week ago. I used http://www.postfix.org/postscreen.8.html and /dev/rob0 s guide at
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 1 5:04 PM
                      On May 1, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Postfix Support Mail wrote:

                      > I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking
                      > about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.
                      >
                      > What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there advantages of
                      > one over the other for a given application?
                      >
                      > --Mac

                      Mac,

                      I made the switch to postscreen about week ago. I used http://www.postfix.org/postscreen.8.html and /dev/rob0's guide at http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.postfix.user/218114 and also turned on deep protocol tests. I have not done any empirical testing here but my impression is that it works at least as well as postgrey. I like that it's seamlessly integrated into postfix.

                      -Terry
                    • Robert Schetterer
                      ... depending on your setup, ( read postscreen readme.... ) you can combine them, specially if you use postgrey only selective which you should allready do yet
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 1 11:00 PM
                        Am 01.05.2012 21:14, schrieb Postfix Support Mail:
                        > I'm currently running postgrey, but a recent thread here got me thinking
                        > about postscreen, which I hadn't considered before.
                        >
                        > What are the pros and cons of one versus the other? Are there advantages of
                        > one over the other for a given application?
                        >
                        > --Mac
                        >
                        >

                        depending on your setup, ( read postscreen readme.... )
                        you can combine them, specially if you use postgrey only selective
                        which you should allready do yet

                        --
                        Best Regards

                        MfG Robert Schetterer

                        Germany/Munich/Bavaria
                      • Michael Tokarev
                        ... Maybe this is something which don t really need any configuration parameters, just pick up whatever is best on current OS, from prior knowlege. But
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 2 3:12 AM
                          02.05.2012 00:14, Wietse Venema wrote:
                          > Michael Tokarev:
                          > [using "unix" instead of "fifo"]
                          >> And yes, I verified the socket code (instead of pipe code) on linux
                          >> a few days ago and it appears to work fine there too. So indeed, this
                          >> is a very good possibility too, but it does not cover solaris well.
                          >
                          > The preferred pickup/qmgr IPC type (fifo or unix) can be a main.cf
                          > parameter setting (with an OS-dependent default value, e.g., fifo
                          > for Solaris and unix for everything else), and post-install can be
                          > updated to edit master.cf accordingly.

                          Maybe this is something which don't really need any configuration
                          parameters, just pick up whatever is best on current OS, from prior
                          knowlege. But indeed, config parameter there will do the job, and
                          will even let us test easily if things have changed on solaris,
                          without a need to recompile postfix.

                          I'm a bit afraid of possible questions this change may generate
                          in the future, when people will start asking "what it is for,
                          why can't it be hardcoded" etc. :)

                          > This solves the "idle" mtime update problem a manner that is 100%
                          > maintainable. It involves adding one configuration parameter to
                          > main.cf, and adding a few lines to post-install that edit master.cf
                          > accordingly.

                          Yes, it should solve the idle mtime update issue. Hopefully unix
                          sockets does not have this problem -- at least on linux, mtime on
                          these isn't updated on write.

                          >> By default these dirs -- /var/spool/postfix/run/{pid,private,public} -
                          >> should be created at install time just like now these dirs are create
                          >> in /var/spool/postfix. The only change I'm asking about is to move
                          >> the "runtime" directories into a subdir (suggesting to name it "run"),
                          >> I don't ask to mount anything in there or to create these on boot.
                          >
                          > Sorry, that is not how Postfix is maintained.
                          >
                          > All aspects of Postfix are meant to be for general use, so that
                          > they are widely used, so that they can be routinely tested during
                          > development, so that they can be properly supported, and so that
                          > they don't break as Postfix evolves.

                          Renaming directories does not break this. But see below...

                          > Also, mounting stuff over Postfix directories breaks the basic model
                          > of how Postfix manages its files, and I definitely don't want some
                          > (Linux) distro maintainer to pick up on the idea. I have enough
                          > work on my hands to deal with damage control of (Linux) distro
                          > maintainers.

                          Well, I already suggested this to Debian - to mount /var/spool/postfix/run
                          and change pid, private and public dirs to be symlinks into subdirs
                          in run/ -- exactly how I manage it locally for many years.

                          Switching to unix sockets should eliminate the need for this.
                          But yet again, see below...

                          > [empty run directory]
                          > You seem to believe that Postfix IPC endpoints don't need to exist
                          > while Postfix is not running.
                          >
                          >> the mix -- pid, private, public -- the directories where the files
                          >> makes any sense at all till postfix is running _only_. Files in
                          >> there does not exist, so to say, when it is not running - even if
                          >> formally corresponding inodes do exist.
                          >
                          > That is incorrect.
                          >
                          > For example, the postdrop program will produce a warning message
                          > if the public/pickup node does not exist. By design this program
                          > MUST be able to run without errors while NO Postfix daemons are
                          > running. Normally, a missing public/pickup node is a sign of great
                          > trouble (mail would be queued forever) and it would therefore be
                          > wrong to shut up the error message.

                          Aha. And that's exactly what I overlooked. I didn't knw that in
                          case public/pickup is not present, postdrop will complain loudly.
                          Indeed, this is a serious enough reason to rethink the whole idea.
                          So I'll hold on with the mentioned changes for debian, I definitely
                          don't want to break postfix in any way.

                          Besides, the same issue (missing pickup node) exists when postfix
                          has been installed but hasn't been run even once. That one appears
                          to be of much less severity.

                          So, to sum it all up, it looks like the best solution will be to
                          switch to unix sockets, either with a config parameter or without.
                          In any way, I'd pick saner per-OS defaults for this, with sockets
                          for everything but solaris which will continue using fifos.

                          Thanks,

                          /mjt
                        • Wietse Venema
                          ... $ postconf -d|wc -l 920 No-one has complained sofar. ... Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do my best to prevent this from
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 2 4:02 AM
                            Michael Tokarev:
                            > > The preferred pickup/qmgr IPC type (fifo or unix) can be a main.cf
                            > > parameter setting (with an OS-dependent default value, e.g., fifo
                            > > for Solaris and unix for everything else), and post-install can be
                            > > updated to edit master.cf accordingly.
                            >
                            > Maybe this is something which don't really need any configuration
                            > parameters, just pick up whatever is best on current OS, from prior
                            > knowlege. But indeed, config parameter there will do the job, and
                            > will even let us test easily if things have changed on solaris,
                            > without a need to recompile postfix.
                            >
                            > I'm a bit afraid of possible questions this change may generate
                            > in the future, when people will start asking "what it is for,
                            > why can't it be hardcoded" etc. :)

                            $ postconf -d|wc -l
                            920

                            No-one has complained sofar.

                            > > Also, mounting stuff over Postfix directories breaks the basic model
                            > > of how Postfix manages its files, and I definitely don't want some
                            > > (Linux) distro maintainer to pick up on the idea. I have enough
                            > > work on my hands to deal with damage control of (Linux) distro
                            > > maintainers.
                            >
                            > Well, I already suggested this to Debian - to mount /var/spool/postfix/run

                            Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do
                            my best to prevent this from happening, and if I find out that
                            they do it anyway, then I will raise hell and it won't be pretty.

                            Wietse
                          • Stan Hoeppner
                            ... To who at Debian? Lamont Jones? Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet? ... All of this nonsense because one guy on the planet feels he can t simply use
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 3 6:16 AM
                              On 5/2/2012 6:02 AM, Wietse Venema wrote:
                              > Michael Tokarev:
                              >>> The preferred pickup/qmgr IPC type (fifo or unix) can be a main.cf
                              >>> parameter setting (with an OS-dependent default value, e.g., fifo
                              >>> for Solaris and unix for everything else), and post-install can be
                              >>> updated to edit master.cf accordingly.
                              >>
                              >> Maybe this is something which don't really need any configuration
                              >> parameters, just pick up whatever is best on current OS, from prior
                              >> knowlege. But indeed, config parameter there will do the job, and
                              >> will even let us test easily if things have changed on solaris,
                              >> without a need to recompile postfix.
                              >>
                              >> I'm a bit afraid of possible questions this change may generate
                              >> in the future, when people will start asking "what it is for,
                              >> why can't it be hardcoded" etc. :)
                              >
                              > $ postconf -d|wc -l
                              > 920
                              >
                              > No-one has complained sofar.
                              >
                              >>> Also, mounting stuff over Postfix directories breaks the basic model
                              >>> of how Postfix manages its files, and I definitely don't want some
                              >>> (Linux) distro maintainer to pick up on the idea. I have enough
                              >>> work on my hands to deal with damage control of (Linux) distro
                              >>> maintainers.
                              >>
                              >> Well, I already suggested this to Debian - to mount /var/spool/postfix/run

                              To who at Debian? Lamont Jones? Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet?

                              > Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do
                              > my best to prevent this from happening, and if I find out that
                              > they do it anyway, then I will raise hell and it won't be pretty.

                              All of this nonsense because one guy on the planet feels he can't simply
                              use an MUA with submission like everyone else does, but demands he be
                              able to run an MTA on his damn desktop/laptop, and demands the default
                              MTA config allows him to do what he wants seamlessly, possibly to the
                              detriment of others, mainly the guy who wrote this MTA for your use in
                              the first place. At least that's my read of this thread.

                              --
                              Stan
                            • Viktor Dukhovni
                              ... Stan, please have the decency to not reflexively abuse others on this list, or otherwise leave. Michael, thanks for all your contributions over the years.
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 3 6:39 AM
                                On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 08:16:33AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:

                                > Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet?

                                Stan, please have the decency to not reflexively abuse others on
                                this list, or otherwise leave.

                                Michael, thanks for all your contributions over the years.

                                The issue you raised here is a valid concern. It is however best
                                to avoid needless distribution-specific tweaks to Postfix, so it
                                would be best if issues are resolved on this list, rather than by
                                downstream maintainers, who may not always take all the consequences
                                into account. To pick on Debian for example, we have the Debian
                                OpenSSL random number fiasco...

                                --
                                Viktor.
                              • Michael Tokarev
                                On 03.05.2012 17:16, Stan Hoeppner wrote: [] ... Please refrain from using such words in public forum. Such usage makes you to be of that kind. ... Your read
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 3 6:48 AM
                                  On 03.05.2012 17:16, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                  []
                                  > To who at Debian? Lamont Jones? Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet?

                                  Please refrain from using such words in public forum.
                                  Such usage makes you to be of that kind.

                                  >> Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do
                                  >> my best to prevent this from happening, and if I find out that
                                  >> they do it anyway, then I will raise hell and it won't be pretty.
                                  >
                                  > All of this nonsense because one guy on the planet feels he can't simply
                                  > use an MUA with submission like everyone else does, but demands he be
                                  > able to run an MTA on his damn desktop/laptop, and demands the default
                                  > MTA config allows him to do what he wants seamlessly, possibly to the
                                  > detriment of others, mainly the guy who wrote this MTA for your use in
                                  > the first place. At least that's my read of this thread.

                                  Your read is incorrect. World is much larger than your imagination.

                                  Thanks,

                                  /mjt
                                • Wietse Venema
                                  I already thanked Michael for his contributions in private email. Michael, does editing master.cf and s/fifo/unix/ solve the mtime file system updates problem?
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 3 7:44 AM
                                    I already thanked Michael for his contributions in private email.

                                    Michael, does editing master.cf and s/fifo/unix/ solve the mtime
                                    file system updates problem? This is already supported by existing
                                    code, works on Linux and *BSD, and I can make a config parameter
                                    that makes this configurable with system-dependent defaults.

                                    If so, then we can avoid controversial changes, such as support to
                                    mount over a critical Postfix directory without Postfix's knowledge
                                    of such things happening.

                                    Wietse
                                  • Stan Hoeppner
                                    ... My apologies for allowing my passion to transform into abrasiveness. ... Please (re)explain the use case you have in mind. It seemed to me the changes
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 3 8:29 AM
                                      On 5/3/2012 8:48 AM, Michael Tokarev wrote:
                                      > On 03.05.2012 17:16, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                      > []
                                      >> To who at Debian? Lamont Jones? Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet?
                                      >
                                      > Please refrain from using such words in public forum.
                                      > Such usage makes you to be of that kind.

                                      My apologies for allowing my passion to transform into abrasiveness.

                                      >>> Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do
                                      >>> my best to prevent this from happening, and if I find out that
                                      >>> they do it anyway, then I will raise hell and it won't be pretty.
                                      >>
                                      >> All of this nonsense because one guy on the planet feels he can't simply
                                      >> use an MUA with submission like everyone else does, but demands he be
                                      >> able to run an MTA on his damn desktop/laptop, and demands the default
                                      >> MTA config allows him to do what he wants seamlessly, possibly to the
                                      >> detriment of others, mainly the guy who wrote this MTA for your use in
                                      >> the first place. At least that's my read of this thread.
                                      >
                                      > Your read is incorrect. World is much larger than your imagination.

                                      Please (re)explain the use case you have in mind. It seemed to me the
                                      changes you're proposing will have a positive effect, immediately
                                      anyway, for only a very small subset of Postfix users, for a niche
                                      configuration.

                                      This request seems very similar to one made on the XFS list not all that
                                      long ago. A user with a home theater PC and a single large WD Green
                                      drive was irked that the drive wouldn't stay asleep for more than 30
                                      seconds. He debugged it himself, and found a long standing XFS behavior
                                      of accessing the journal or filesystem superblock every 30s IIRC. He
                                      said this wasn't necessary and pleaded with the devs to change this
                                      behavior, just so his HTPC drive could sleep. XFS was never intended
                                      for such a setup, this behavior existing since ~1994/95. The average
                                      XFS setup is a server with a dozen to a few hundred or more drives in
                                      hardware RAID running 24x7--no sleeping. An SGI employee mentioned just
                                      a couple of weeks ago working with a single XFS filesystem spaning 600
                                      drives in an IS16000 array. Not your average XFS drive count, but it is
                                      a typical large XFS configuration, and quite a contrast from a single
                                      drive HTPC server in a living room.

                                      IIRC a patch was eventually developed after many months, when it was
                                      determined there was likely no downside, and mainlined after much
                                      regression testing and tweaking. All for the benefit of very very few
                                      non-typical XFS users.

                                      Anyway, I see this as a similar case, and a similar waste of resources
                                      expended for the benefit of very few users, when there is nothing
                                      inherently "wrong" with the current Postfix implementation, as far as I
                                      understand the request. Maybe I simply don't fully understand the issue
                                      and the potential benefits yet.

                                      --
                                      Stan
                                    • john
                                      I do not see where Stan was abusive. Abrasive maybe, but then sometimes bumps on logs need sanding down this would appear to be one of those occasions.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 3 2:29 PM
                                        I do not see where Stan was abusive.
                                        Abrasive maybe, but then sometimes bumps on logs need sanding down this
                                        would appear to be one of those occasions.

                                        On 03/05/2012 11:29 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                        > On 5/3/2012 8:48 AM, Michael Tokarev wrote:
                                        >> On 03.05.2012 17:16, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
                                        >> []
                                        >>> To who at Debian? Lamont Jones? Has he replied to your idiotic idea yet?
                                        >> Please refrain from using such words in public forum.
                                        >> Such usage makes you to be of that kind.
                                        > My apologies for allowing my passion to transform into abrasiveness.
                                        >
                                        >>>> Thank you for making my worst nightmares come true. I will do
                                        >>>> my best to prevent this from happening, and if I find out that
                                        >>>> they do it anyway, then I will raise hell and it won't be pretty.
                                        >>> All of this nonsense because one guy on the planet feels he can't simply
                                        >>> use an MUA with submission like everyone else does, but demands he be
                                        >>> able to run an MTA on his damn desktop/laptop, and demands the default
                                        >>> MTA config allows him to do what he wants seamlessly, possibly to the
                                        >>> detriment of others, mainly the guy who wrote this MTA for your use in
                                        >>> the first place. At least that's my read of this thread.
                                        >> Your read is incorrect. World is much larger than your imagination.
                                        > Please (re)explain the use case you have in mind. It seemed to me the
                                        > changes you're proposing will have a positive effect, immediately
                                        > anyway, for only a very small subset of Postfix users, for a niche
                                        > configuration.
                                        >
                                        > This request seems very similar to one made on the XFS list not all that
                                        > long ago. A user with a home theater PC and a single large WD Green
                                        > drive was irked that the drive wouldn't stay asleep for more than 30
                                        > seconds. He debugged it himself, and found a long standing XFS behavior
                                        > of accessing the journal or filesystem superblock every 30s IIRC. He
                                        > said this wasn't necessary and pleaded with the devs to change this
                                        > behavior, just so his HTPC drive could sleep. XFS was never intended
                                        > for such a setup, this behavior existing since ~1994/95. The average
                                        > XFS setup is a server with a dozen to a few hundred or more drives in
                                        > hardware RAID running 24x7--no sleeping. An SGI employee mentioned just
                                        > a couple of weeks ago working with a single XFS filesystem spaning 600
                                        > drives in an IS16000 array. Not your average XFS drive count, but it is
                                        > a typical large XFS configuration, and quite a contrast from a single
                                        > drive HTPC server in a living room.
                                        >
                                        > IIRC a patch was eventually developed after many months, when it was
                                        > determined there was likely no downside, and mainlined after much
                                        > regression testing and tweaking. All for the benefit of very very few
                                        > non-typical XFS users.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, I see this as a similar case, and a similar waste of resources
                                        > expended for the benefit of very few users, when there is nothing
                                        > inherently "wrong" with the current Postfix implementation, as far as I
                                        > understand the request. Maybe I simply don't fully understand the issue
                                        > and the potential benefits yet.
                                        >
                                      • Stan Hoeppner
                                        On 5/3/2012 6:54 PM, Bill Cole wrote: ... This could be completely resolved by PXE/bootp and NFS mounted root filesystems, and save you $200-500/node in disk
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 4 2:00 PM
                                          On 5/3/2012 6:54 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
                                          ...
                                          > For many of these systems,
                                          > the OS resides on a mirrored pair of local disks which see very
                                          > infrequent writes because every filesystem with significant flux is
                                          > physically resident across the SAN. Spinning disks draw power. Anything
                                          > drawing power generates heat. Heat requires cooling. Cooling typically
                                          > requires more power than the devices it is compensating for. Cooling
                                          > also requires careful attention to the details of physical server
                                          > density and rack design and so on...

                                          This could be completely resolved by PXE/bootp and NFS mounted root
                                          filesystems, and save you $200-500/node in disk drive costs after
                                          spending $1000-2000 for the NFS server hardware, or nothing using a VM
                                          server. It would also save you substantial admin time by using
                                          templates for new node deployments. This diskless node methodology has
                                          been around for ~30 years.

                                          > A local mail submission and trivial outbound transport subsystem is a
                                          > normal feature of any Unix-like machine. To operate robustly, it needs a
                                          > queueing and retry mechanism. It is helpful for environments with power
                                          > and cooling concerns if a mechanical disk (or worse: a mirrored pair of
                                          > disks) isn't forced to spin up every time that mechanism activates.
                                          > Every little wattage savings is useful, and avoiding truly pointless
                                          > disk writes is never a bad thing.

                                          SSD is a perfect solution here, in cases of non netboot machines. And
                                          right now small SSDs are less expensive than their rusty disk
                                          counterparts. If one is truly concerned about spurious spin ups eating
                                          power and generating heat, I would think one would not go after the
                                          software stack in a piecemeal fashion to solve the problem. The MTA
                                          isn't the only software waking the disk. The kernel will write logs far
                                          more often in many/most situations.

                                          > Well, beyond the data center environment there is also a very widespread
                                          > deployment of Postfix as the legacy mail subsystem on MacOS personal
                                          > machines, where the mail flow is typically extremely low.
                                          ...
                                          > Ultimately the result is having to choose
                                          > between power management and timely delivery. If the periodic wakeups
                                          > didn't force a disk write, it would be less onerous to let master run in
                                          > its normal persistent mode for a lot of Postfix users (many of whom may
                                          > not even be aware that they are Postfix users.)

                                          This is only true if two things persist into the future:

                                          1. Postfix isn't modified in order to perform a power management role
                                          2. Laptops will forever have spinning rust storage

                                          Addressing the first point, should it be the responsibility of
                                          application software to directly address power management concerns? Or
                                          should this be left to the OS and hardware platform/BIOS?

                                          Addressing the 2nd, within a few years all new laptops will ship with
                                          SSD instead of SRD specifically to address battery run time
                                          issues. Many are shipping now with SSDs. All netbooks already do,
                                          smart phones use other flash types.

                                          > Whether it is actually worthwhile to make a change that is only
                                          > significant for people who are barely using Postfix isn't a judgment I
                                          > can make. It's obvious that Dr. Venema takes significantly more care
                                          > with his code than I can really relate to, so I don't really know what
                                          > effort a conceptually small change in Postfix really entails.

                                          Wietse will make his own decisions as he always has.

                                          I'm simply making the point that issues such as power/cooling,
                                          wake/sleep, etc should be addressed at the hardware platform/OS level,
                                          or system or network architecture level, at the application level,
                                          especially if the effort to implement it is more than trivial.

                                          This is especially true when any such coding effort may only produce
                                          very short term gains, as these issues are already being addressed and
                                          will be completely resolved by other means (SSD) in the near
                                          future, or have already been resolved by 30 year old
                                          technology/architecture methods (netboot/NFS), depending on the platform
                                          scenario.

                                          --
                                          Stan
                                        • Bill Cole
                                          ... Yes, it is possible to fundamentally re-architect working environments that have been organically developed over years by adding significant new
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 4 6:05 PM
                                            On 4 May 2012, at 17:00, Stan Hoeppner wrote:

                                            > On 5/3/2012 6:54 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
                                            > ...
                                            >> For many of these systems,
                                            >> the OS resides on a mirrored pair of local disks which see very
                                            >> infrequent writes because every filesystem with significant flux is
                                            >> physically resident across the SAN. Spinning disks draw power.
                                            >> Anything
                                            >> drawing power generates heat. Heat requires cooling. Cooling
                                            >> typically
                                            >> requires more power than the devices it is compensating for. Cooling
                                            >> also requires careful attention to the details of physical server
                                            >> density and rack design and so on...
                                            >
                                            > This could be completely resolved by PXE/bootp and NFS mounted root
                                            > filesystems, and save you $200-500/node in disk drive costs after
                                            > spending $1000-2000 for the NFS server hardware, or nothing using a VM
                                            > server. It would also save you substantial admin time by using
                                            > templates for new node deployments. This diskless node methodology
                                            > has
                                            > been around for ~30 years.

                                            Yes, it is possible to fundamentally re-architect working environments
                                            that have been "organically" developed over years by adding significant
                                            new infrastructure to save on capital costs of hypothetical growth and
                                            maybe on future admin time. The idea that a server in the $1000-$2000
                                            range would be part of a global conversion to diskless servers or even
                                            the largest capital cost of such a project reveals that I failed to
                                            communicate an accurate understanding of the environment, but that's not
                                            terribly important. There's no shortage of well-informed well-developed
                                            specific proposals for comprehensive infrastructure overhaul, and in the
                                            interim between now and the distant never when one of those meets up
                                            with a winning lottery ticket and an unutilized skilled head or three, I
                                            have sufficient workarounds in place.

                                            I didn't mention that environment seeking a solution, but rather to
                                            point out that there are real-world systems that take advantage of the
                                            power management capabilities of modern disks and have nothing else in
                                            common with the average personal system. I think that was responsive to
                                            the paragraph of yours that I originally quoted. It's easy to come up
                                            with flippant advice for others to spend time and money to replace
                                            stable working systems, but it is also irrelevant and a bit rude.

                                            [...]
                                            >> Ultimately the result is having to choose
                                            >> between power management and timely delivery. If the periodic wakeups
                                            >> didn't force a disk write, it would be less onerous to let master run
                                            >> in
                                            >> its normal persistent mode for a lot of Postfix users (many of whom
                                            >> may
                                            >> not even be aware that they are Postfix users.)
                                            >
                                            > This is only true if two things persist into the future:
                                            >
                                            > 1. Postfix isn't modified in order to perform a power management role

                                            No reason for it to "perform" but it would be nice for it to "stop
                                            thwarting."

                                            > 2. Laptops will forever have spinning rust storage

                                            Who said anything about laptops?

                                            > Addressing the first point, should it be the responsibility of
                                            > application software to directly address power management concerns?
                                            > Or
                                            > should this be left to the OS and hardware platform/BIOS?

                                            Applications should not do things that are actively hostile to
                                            housekeeping functions of lower-level software (in this case: drive
                                            firmware) without a functional justification. It's not wrong for a
                                            filesystem to change the mtime on a pipe with every write to it, nor is
                                            it wrong for a filesystem to commit every change in a timely manner.
                                            This is not really fixable at a lower level without eliminating the
                                            hardware in question or making changes to filesystem software that could
                                            cause wide-ranging problems with other software.

                                            > Addressing the 2nd, within a few years all new laptops will ship with
                                            > SSD instead of SRD specifically to address battery run time
                                            > issues. Many are shipping now with SSDs. All netbooks already do,
                                            > smart phones use other flash types.

                                            This is not about laptops. Really.

                                            Systems can live a long time without drive replacements. Spinning rust
                                            with power management firmware is not going to be rare in running
                                            systems until at least 5 years after dependable & fast SSD's hit $1/GB
                                            for devices larger than 100GB. Of course, those drives may die out a lot
                                            faster where applications do periodic pointless writes that keep them
                                            running continuously.

                                            Note that the reason this issue exists *AT ALL* is to work around a bug
                                            in Solaris 2.4. I spent most of the last 14 years working mostly on
                                            Solaris systems in change-averse places and the last time I saw Solaris
                                            2.4 was 1999. I don't have the details of the bug or the free time to
                                            rig up a test system to prove it gone in whatever version Postfix needs
                                            to work on today, but I have no gripe with that relatively ancient and
                                            *likely* inoperative history being the blocking issue. I hope someone
                                            else can settle the issue. An argument that time will soon make this fix
                                            pointless is a bit ironic.


                                            >> Whether it is actually worthwhile to make a change that is only
                                            >> significant for people who are barely using Postfix isn't a judgment
                                            >> I
                                            >> can make. It's obvious that Dr. Venema takes significantly more care
                                            >> with his code than I can really relate to, so I don't really know
                                            >> what
                                            >> effort a conceptually small change in Postfix really entails.
                                            >
                                            > Wietse will make his own decisions as he always has.
                                            >
                                            > I'm simply making the point that issues such as power/cooling,
                                            > wake/sleep, etc should be addressed at the hardware platform/OS level,
                                            > or system or network architecture level, at the application level,
                                            > especially if the effort to implement it is more than trivial.

                                            See his discussion of the details. The code exists, what remains is the
                                            harder work of testing and getting all the defaults right.


                                            P.S.: Note that I have respected with your Reply-To header. Please
                                            return that courtesy.
                                          • Reindl Harald
                                            ... but only if you do not permanently spin them up and down power managment is the dead of a drive i have here disks with 35.000 uptime you can be sure with
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 4 11:30 PM
                                              Am 05.05.2012 03:05, schrieb Bill Cole:
                                              > Systems can live a long time without drive replacements.

                                              but only if you do not permanently spin them up and down
                                              power managment is the dead of a drive

                                              i have here disks with > 35.000 uptime
                                              you can be sure with "power-managment" they
                                              would still be dead

                                              try it out: spin down a drive running some years
                                              and you have a real good change that the next
                                              spin up is the final one

                                              > Spinning rust with power management firmware is not going
                                              > to be rare in running systems until at least 5 years

                                              and should be the first to get disabled in the real world

                                              the power you save in spin down a disk is meaningless
                                              in any way, the power for produce a new drive because yours
                                              died by permanently spin up/down is much higher and the cost
                                              of the new drive also compared with let the drive run
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