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Re: Email service providers

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  • Eero Volotinen
    ... Well. usually people use sql+php style software for generating this kind of spam messages ;) -- Eero
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
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      On 12/30/09 8:49 PM, Brian Evans - Postfix List wrote:
      > On 12/30/2009 1:43 PM, Port Able wrote:
      >> I am currently consulting for a small retailer. They have been using
      >> an online email service provider for the past few years to blast
      >> personalized emails to their customers (opt-in, and 100-200 thousand
      >> emails at a time). They have asked me to see if we can install an
      >> email server in house to accomplish the same thing and eliminate the
      >> monthly costs. I am fairly familiar with Linux/Unix and with
      >> databases (mysql and postgresql). I have not done anything with
      >> Sendmail or Postfix but feel comfortable following the documentation.
      >> I have also ordered the two books that I could find on Postfix.
      >>
      >> My questions are: has anyone used Postfix for this purpose? Do the
      >> online ESP's develop their own email servers? Do any of them use
      >> Sendmail, Postfix or qmail?
      >
      > Postfix does not create any messages (minus administrative notices). It
      > is simply the delivery vehicle.
      >
      > Software such as mailman or ezmlm is more suited to mailing lists.
      > All such software can use Postfix to do the delivery.

      Well. usually people use sql+php style software for generating this kind
      of spam messages ;)

      --
      Eero
    • Port Able
      ... Well. usually people use sql+php style software for generating this kind of spam messages ;) -- Eero That is a good point.  Mailman and ezmlm are not
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
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        --- On Wed, 12/30/09, Eero Volotinen <eero.volotinen@...> wrote:

        > Software such as mailman or ezmlm is more suited to mailing lists.
        > All such software can use Postfix to do the delivery.

        Well. usually people use sql+php style software for generating this kind
        of spam messages ;)

        --
        Eero

        That is a good point.  Mailman and ezmlm are not suitable for the scenario we imagine.  The primary reason for us is that, membership is not going to be fixed but dynamic, i.e., not everyone will receive an email each time.




      • Port Able
        ... You really should ask this question on spam-l.  There is an ESP discussion currently taking place.  Would be perfect timing. Far more important that the
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
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          --- On Wed, 12/30/09, Stan Hoeppner <stan@...> wrote:

          You really should ask this question on spam-l.  There is an ESP discussion
          currently taking place.  Would be perfect timing.

          Far more important that the software platform you choose to do this is your
          deliverability.  Good ESPs know how to keep their customers mailings from
          hitting DNSBLs and other black lists.  The last thing you want to do is set this
          thing up, and on the first run get your IP address blacklisted by Spamhaus.

          http://spam-l.com/mailman/listinfo/spam-l

          100K to 200K bulk mailings are not for amateurs.

          One question:  are they not happy with the level of service their current ESP is
          providing, or are they merely trying to cut costs?

          --
          Stan


          Thanks for the link!  I will check it out. 

          To answer your question: it is a combination of both: they would like better integration with their CRM system, and the cost is really a reflection of the poor quality of service they are receiving.





        • Port Able
          ... .... [a lot of useful points] .... -- bda cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk. This is very helpful information - thanks a bunch!  This gives me the
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
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            --- On Wed, 12/30/09, Bryan Allen <bda@...> wrote:
            ...
            [a lot of useful points]
            ...


            --
            bda
            cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.


            This is very helpful information - thanks a bunch!  This gives me the confidence to go ahead to build a test environment based on Postfix. 





          • Jorge Armando Medina
            ... You can try PHPLIST a newsletter manager: http://www.phplist.com/ ... -- Jorge Armando Medina Computación Gráfica de México Web:
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
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              Bryan Allen wrote:
              > +------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > | On 2009-12-30 10:43:48, Port Able wrote:
              > |
              > | I am currently consulting for a small retailer. They have been using
              > | an online email service provider for the past few years to blast
              > | personalized emails to their customers (opt-in, and 100-200 thousand
              > | emails at a time). They have asked me to see if we can install an
              > | email server in house to accomplish the same thing and eliminate the
              > | monthly costs. I am fairly familiar with Linux/Unix and with databases
              > | (mysql and postgresql). I have not done anything with Sendmail or
              > | Postfix but feel comfortable following the documentation. I have also
              > | ordered the two books that I could find on Postfix.
              > |
              > | My questions
              > | are: has anyone used Postfix for this purpose? Do the online ESP's
              > | develop their own email servers? Do any of them use Sendmail,
              > | Postfix or qmail?
              >

              You can try PHPLIST a newsletter manager: http://www.phplist.com/

              > I work for an ESP who provides email forwarding, storage, and as a seperate
              > service, email marketing and mailing lists.
              >
              > We use Postfix; as other commenters have said, it's a (very good) delivery
              > mechanism. But: It doesn't generate messages, just ensures they get where
              > they're going.
              >
              > Working with Postfix as a delivery platform is very pleasant. It's easy to
              > configure, extremely stable, well-documented, the code is super clean, and
              > wrapping your application around it is quite easy.
              >
              > Our mailing list software is developed in-house. We used to use mailman (almost
              > a decade ago?), but it's very limited for email marketing purposes.
              >
              > Some general suggestions:
              >
              > Keep your streams clear: Never mix IPs sending misc non-bulk mail with IPs
              > sending bulk mail. This does not mean snowshoe, but you don't want your CEO's
              > mail getting bounced to his best buddy at gmail because gmail now hates your
              > marketing dept.
              >
              > PTRs are important.
              >
              > Sign up for every FBL you can. Track bounces. Never resub someone who has
              > unsubscribed from your lists.
              >
              > SPF and DKIM matter to varying degrees.
              >
              > Some MXes you deliver to will want to be coddled (specific delivery settings).
              >
              > IP reputation is key. You have to grow it. Blasting Yahoo with 200k messages in
              > 5 minutes is going to cause headaches for everyone involved.
              >
              > If you end up on a blacklist, treat the operators with respect. Giving them
              > crap is not going to help anyone.
              >
              > Engaging in scummy behavior for a short-term win is going to screw you
              > long-term. Your marketing dept may not understand that; you'll have to stand
              > firm with them. Do no let them buy email address lists.
              >
              > Delivering email, especially for marketing purposes, is very complex. If it
              > isn't your core competency I would suggest outsourcing it to a dedicated ESP.
              >


              --
              Jorge Armando Medina
              Computación Gráfica de México
              Web: http://www.e-compugraf.com
              Tel: 55 51 40 72, Ext: 124
              Email: jmedina@...
              GPG Key: 1024D/28E40632 2007-07-26
              GPG Fingerprint: 59E2 0C7C F128 B550 B3A6 D3AF C574 8422 28E4 0632
            • LuKreme
              ... Sure, lots of people. ... Bwahahahahah! Um. No. ... Almost certainly almost all of them use one of those. ... --
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 31, 2009
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                On 30-Dec-2009, at 11:43, Port Able wrote:
                > are: has anyone used Postfix for this purpose?

                Sure, lots of people.

                > Do the online ESP's develop their own email servers?

                Bwahahahahah! Um. No.

                > Do any of them use Sendmail, Postfix or quail?

                Almost certainly almost all of them use one of those.

                > Thanks in advance for any information or links.

                <www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html>



                --
                I WILL NOT HANG DONUTS ON MY PERSON
                Bart chalkboard Ep. 2F13
              • LuKreme
                ... No, that s simply not true. Mailman works perfectly well for sending announcement only mailings, and it is trivial to setup a list so that subscribers
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 31, 2009
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                  On 30-Dec-2009, at 12:20, Brian Mathis wrote:
                  > I've not used mailmain or ezmlm for this purpose, but so called
                  > "mailing list software" that's available as open source is often meant
                  > to be used for having discussions with numerous people through email.
                  > Using systems like that as a bulk mailer is generally a really bad
                  > idea and requires a lot of intricate configuration to ensure no one
                  > can reply to the whole list, etc…

                  No, that's simply not true. Mailman works perfectly well for sending announcement only mailings, and it is trivial to setup a list so that subscribers cannot post.

                  Nothing tricksy or intricate about it.


                  --
                  The person on the other side was a young woman. Very obviously a
                  young woman. There was no possible way that she could have been
                  mistaken for a young man in any language, especially Braille.
                • Jacqui Caren-home
                  ... Excuse me! A year or so ago we worked on a postfix mod to enable delivery rate limiting and active MSP profile management. It did not work as well as we
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 31, 2009
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                    LuKreme wrote:
                    > On 30-Dec-2009, at 11:43, Port Able wrote:
                    >> Do the online ESP's develop their own email servers?
                    > Bwahahahahah! Um. No.

                    Excuse me!

                    A year or so ago we worked on a postfix mod to enable delivery rate
                    limiting and active MSP profile management. It did not work as well
                    as we hoped and we have since developed our own delivery systems.
                    Postfix is a great (probably the best IMHO) general purpose MTA but
                    for a highly specific (distributed) low overhead delivery system
                    designed to work within the (constantly changing) limitations specified
                    by MSPs the changes postfix required would have ended up as a re-write
                    to work with any decent performance.

                    I *know* other commercial MSP's (our competitors) also use custom
                    delivery subsystems although I think we are currently the only ones with
                    a distributed delivery system that uses active MSP delivery profiles
                    and MSP "delivery load balance" :-)

                    Jacqui
                  • Stan Hoeppner
                    ... So you wrote your own custom MTA and sending cluster load balancing daemon from scratch? Did you write them in C or Perl? How many hosts in this load
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 31, 2009
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                      Jacqui Caren-home put forth on 12/31/2009 5:28 PM:

                      > I *know* other commercial MSP's (our competitors) also use custom
                      > delivery subsystems although I think we are currently the only ones with
                      > a distributed delivery system that uses active MSP delivery profiles
                      > and MSP "delivery load balance" :-)

                      So you wrote your own custom MTA and sending cluster load balancing daemon from
                      scratch? Did you write them in C or Perl? How many hosts in this load balanced
                      sending cluster?

                      --
                      Stan
                    • Port Able
                      ... for a highly specific (distributed) low overhead delivery system designed to work within the (constantly changing) limitations specified by MSPs the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 1, 2010
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                        --- On Thu, 12/31/09, Jacqui Caren-home <jacqui.caren@...> wrote:
                        for a highly specific (distributed) low overhead delivery system
                        designed to work within the (constantly changing) limitations specified
                        by MSPs the changes postfix required would have ended up as a re-write
                        to work with any decent performance.


                        If MSP's force you to throttle your delivery speed, how does a distributed delivery system help?  Since it is presumably intended to increase throughput/speed, it seems counter-intuitive as you will reach their limits faster.


                        I *know* other commercial MSP's (our competitors) also use custom
                        delivery subsystems although I think we are currently the only ones with
                        a distributed delivery system that uses active MSP delivery profiles
                        and MSP "delivery load balance" :-)



                        This is very interesting.  Can you share any info or background on MSP profiles and their load balancing requirements? 



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