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Re: bare user names and {dk,sid}-milter

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  • Tuan Van
    ... Thanks for response. I have postfix 2.3.2 and dk-milter 0.4.1 but dk-milter isn t the one that rejects mail. I took sid-milter (0.2.13) out then mail from
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Tony Earnshaw wrote:
      > This doesn't happen on our site running Postfix 2.3.2 and dk-milter
      > 1.4.1 with Wietse's patch as documented in the 2.3.2 MILTER_README.html.
      > Maybe your startup parameters are wrong?
      >
      > ps aux | grep dk-filter
      > root 31123 0.0 0.1 46392 1644 ? Ssl Jul26
      > 0:05 /usr/bin/dk-filter -l -p inet:10003 -d barlaeus.nl -
      > s /etc/certs/dk-filter/mail.private.pem -S mail -C dnserror=tempfail -H
      > -D
      >
      > Make sure you don't have -C nosignature=reject or similar.
      >
      > --Tonni
      >
      >

      Thanks for response. I have postfix 2.3.2 and dk-milter 0.4.1 but
      dk-milter isn't the one that rejects mail. I took sid-milter (0.2.13)
      out then mail from <someone> goes through (I should have tried that
      before.). I've posted in the wrong forum. Just want to correct thing
      I've mis-reported.

      dk-milter and sid-milter start with:
      # ps aux | grep -- -filter
      milter 11417 0.0 0.2 20612 1064 ? Ssl 08:32 0:00
      /usr/bin/dk-filter -u milter -l -p inet:8025@localhost -c simple -d
      mytestmail.gotdns.org -s /etc/mail/dk-filter/test.private -S test
      milter 13985 0.0 0.1 27612 824 ? Ssl 09:07 0:00
      /usr/bin/sid-filter -u milter -l -p inet:8026@localhost -d
      mytestmail.gotdns.com

      below is the verbose logs

      dk-milter only:
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: connection established
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: master_notify: status 0
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: name_mask: resource
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: name_mask: software
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: xsasl_cyrus_server_create:
      SASL service=smtp, realm=(null)
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: name_mask: noanonymous
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: connect from localhost[127.0.0.1]
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_hostname: localhost ~?
      127.0.0.0/8
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_hostaddr: 127.0.0.1 ~?
      127.0.0.0/8
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: report connect to all milters
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: "j"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{daemon_name}"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: "v"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "Postfix 2.3.2"
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect: non-protocol
      events for protocol version 2: SMFIP_NOUNKNOWN SMFIP_NODATA 0xfffffc00
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect:
      transport=inet endpoint=localhost:8026
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: trying... [127.0.0.1]
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect: my_version=0x2
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect:
      my_actions=0x3d SMFIF_ADDHDRS SMFIF_ADDRCPT SMFIF_DELRCPT SMFIF_CHGHDRS
      SMFIF_QUARANTINE
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect:
      my_events=0x7f SMFIP_NOCONNECT SMFIP_NOHELO SMFIP_NOMAIL SMFIP_NORCPT
      SMFIP_NOBODY SMFIP_NOHDRS SMFIP_NOEOH
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect: milter
      inet:localhost:8026 version 2
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect: events
      SMFIP_NOHELO SMFIP_NORCPT SMFIP_NOBODY
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_connect: requests
      SMFIF_ADDHDRS SMFIF_CHGHDRS
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_conn_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8026: connect localhost/127.0.0.1
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: event: SMFIC_CONNECT; macros:
      j=mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org {daemon_name}=mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org
      v=Postfix 2.3.2
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: reply: SMFIR_CONTINUE data 0
      bytes
      Aug 1 08:42:26 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 220
      mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org ESMTP Postfix
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: < localhost[127.0.0.1]: EHLO
      example.com
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: report helo to all milters
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{tls_version}"
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: "{cipher}"
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cipher_bits}"
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cert_subject}"
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cert_issuer}"
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_helo_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8026: helo example.com
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: event: SMFIC_HELO; macros: (none)
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: skipping event SMFIC_HELO for
      milter inet:localhost:8026
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-PIPELINING
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-SIZE 10240000
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250-VRFY
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250-ETRN
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-AUTH PLAIN
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-8BITMIME
      Aug 1 08:42:43 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250 DSN
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: < localhost[127.0.0.1]: MAIL
      FROM:<someone>
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: extract_addr: input: <someone>
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: smtpd_check_addr: addr=someone
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: ctable_locate: leave existing
      entry key someone
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: extract_addr: in: <someone>,
      result: someone
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: report sender to all milters
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: "i"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_type}"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_authen}"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_author}"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{mail_addr}"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "someone"
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: milter8_mail_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8026: mail <someone>
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: event: SMFIC_MAIL; macros:
      {mail_addr}=someone
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: reply: SMFIR_TEMPFAIL data 0
      bytes
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: NOQUEUE: milter-reject: MAIL
      from localhost[127.0.0.1]: 451 4.7.1 Service unavailable - try again
      later; proto=ESMTP helo=<example.com>
      Aug 1 08:42:51 mail postfix/smtpd[11706]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 451
      4.7.1 Service unavailable - try again later

      sid-milter only:
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: connection established
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: master_notify: status 0
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: name_mask: resource
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: name_mask: software
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: xsasl_cyrus_server_create:
      SASL service=smtp, realm=(null)
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: name_mask: noanonymous
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: connect from localhost[127.0.0.1]
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_hostname: localhost ~?
      127.0.0.0/8
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_hostaddr: 127.0.0.1 ~?
      127.0.0.0/8
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: report connect to all milters
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: "j"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{daemon_name}"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: "v"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "Postfix 2.3.2"
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect: non-protocol
      events for protocol version 2: SMFIP_NOUNKNOWN SMFIP_NODATA 0xfffffc00
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect:
      transport=inet endpoint=localhost:8025
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: trying... [127.0.0.1]
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect: my_version=0x2
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect:
      my_actions=0x3d SMFIF_ADDHDRS SMFIF_ADDRCPT SMFIF_DELRCPT SMFIF_CHGHDRS
      SMFIF_QUARANTINE
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect:
      my_events=0x7f SMFIP_NOCONNECT SMFIP_NOHELO SMFIP_NOMAIL SMFIP_NORCPT
      SMFIP_NOBODY SMFIP_NOHDRS SMFIP_NOEOH
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect: milter
      inet:localhost:8025 version 2
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect: events
      SMFIP_NOHELO SMFIP_NORCPT
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_connect: requests
      SMFIF_ADDHDRS SMFIF_CHGHDRS
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_conn_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8025: connect localhost/127.0.0.1
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: event: SMFIC_CONNECT; macros:
      j=mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org {daemon_name}=mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org
      v=Postfix 2.3.2
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: reply: SMFIR_CONTINUE data 0
      bytes
      Aug 1 08:48:35 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 220
      mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org ESMTP Postfix
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: < localhost[127.0.0.1]: EHLO
      example.com
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: report helo to all milters
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{tls_version}"
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: "{cipher}"
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cipher_bits}"
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cert_subject}"
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{cert_issuer}"
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_helo_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8025: helo example.com
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: event: SMFIC_HELO; macros: (none)
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: skipping event SMFIC_HELO for
      milter inet:localhost:8025
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-mail.mytestmail.gotdns.org
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-PIPELINING
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-SIZE 10240000
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250-VRFY
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250-ETRN
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: localhost:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: match_list_match: 127.0.0.1:
      no match
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-AUTH PLAIN
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]:
      250-8BITMIME
      Aug 1 08:48:42 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250 DSN
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: < localhost[127.0.0.1]: MAIL
      FROM:<someone>
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: extract_addr: input: <someone>
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: smtpd_check_addr: addr=someone
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: ctable_locate: leave existing
      entry key someone
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: extract_addr: in: <someone>,
      result: someone
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: report sender to all milters
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: "i"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_type}"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_authen}"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{auth_author}"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup:
      "{mail_addr}"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter_macro_lookup: result
      "someone"
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: milter8_mail_event: milter
      inet:localhost:8025: mail <someone>
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: event: SMFIC_MAIL; macros:
      {mail_addr}=someone
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: reply: SMFIR_CONTINUE data 0
      bytes
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: fsspace: .: block size 4096,
      blocks free 89226
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: smtpd_check_queue: blocks
      4096 avail 89226 min_free 0 msg_size_limit 10240000
      Aug 1 08:48:48 mail postfix/smtpd[11874]: > localhost[127.0.0.1]: 250
      2.1.0 Ok
    • Tony Earnshaw
      ... Okok .. 1075 [root:mercurius.intern] /etc/sysconfig # ps aux |grep dk- milter 6422 0.0 0.0 15376 1160 ? Ssl 18:41 0:00 /usr/bin/dk-filter -l
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1, 2006
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        ty den 01.08.2006 Klokka 16:59 (+0200) skreiv Mark Martinec:

        > > ty den 01.08.2006 Klokka 10:46 (+0200) skreiv Mark Martinec:
        > > > On Tuesday August 1 2006 08:17, Tony Earnshaw wrote:
        > > > > ps aux | grep dk-filter
        > > > > root 31123 0.0 0.1 46392 1644 ? Ssl Jul26
        > > > ^^^^
        > > > > 0:05 /usr/bin/dk-filter -l -p inet:10003 ...
        > > >
        > > > A brave soul!
        >
        > > Hmmm ...
        > > ps auxwww|grep dk-
        > > postfix 14702 0.0 0.0 14284 1160 ? Ssl 11:35
        > ^^^^^^^
        > > 0:00 /usr/bin/dk-filter -l -p inet:10003 -d barlaeus.nl -
        > > s /etc/certs/dk-filter/mail.private.pem -S mail -C dnserror=tempfail -u
        > > postfix -H -D
        > >
        > > Seems to work, still signs mail ... now I'll have to change all my rpm
        > > stuff, bother.
        >
        >
        > http://www.postfix.org/MILTER_README.html :
        >
        > | To run a Milter application, see the documentation of the filter for
        > | options. A typical command looks like this:
        > | # /some/where/dk-filter -u userid -p inet:portnumber@localhost ...
        > | Please specify a userid value that isn't used for other applications
        > | (not "postfix", not "www", etc.).
        > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        Okok ..

        1075 [root:mercurius.intern] /etc/sysconfig # ps aux |grep dk-

        milter 6422 0.0 0.0 15376 1160 ? Ssl 18:41
        0:00 /usr/bin/dk-filter -l -p inet:10003 -d barlaeus.nl -
        s /etc/certs/dk-filter/mail.private.pem -S mail -C dnserror=tempfail -u
        milter -H -D

        "Nu is het welletjes" as they say here in Holland, "No kan det vera nok"
        in my homeland. I absolutely refuse to add a new milter user for each
        milter application I add; I'm amenable to every security push I get,
        until things begin to get ridiculous.

        Thanks again (dunno what we'd do without amavisd.new 2.4)

        --Tonni

        --
        Tony Earnshaw
        tonni at barlaeus.nl
      • Noel Jones
        ... Sounds as if you need to add localhost and internal networks to sid-milter s peerlist. See the sid-milter docs and support forums for more details. % man
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          At 12:44 PM 7/31/2006, Tuan Van wrote:
          >Hi list,
          >when a local user send an email with an address without
          >the domain part,
          >{dk,sid}-milter reject it.
          > I wonder if there is a fix for this except force local
          > user to use
          >fully qualified email address.

          Sounds as if you need to add localhost and internal
          networks to sid-milter's peerlist. See the sid-milter docs
          and support forums for more details.

          % man 8 sid-filter
          ...
          -a peerlist
          Identifies a file of "peers" which
          identifies clients whose con-
          nections should be accepted without
          processing by this filter.
          The peerlist should contain on each line a
          hostname, domain name
          (e.g. ".example.com"), IP address, or
          CIDR-style IP specifica-
          tion (e.g. "192.168.1.0/24").
          ...


          --
          Noel Jones
        • Geoff W
          ... That s all well and good (and sensible!) but it complicates matters a whole lot when you use sockets (especially if they are in a directory not owned by
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:59:07 +0200, Mark Martinec wrote:

            >http://www.postfix.org/MILTER_README.html :
            >
            >| To run a Milter application, see the documentation of the filter for
            >| options. A typical command looks like this:
            >| # /some/where/dk-filter -u userid -p inet:portnumber@localhost ...
            >| Please specify a userid value that isn't used for other applications
            >| (not "postfix", not "www", etc.).
            > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

            That's all well and good (and sensible!) but it complicates matters a whole lot when you use sockets (especially if they are in a directory not owned by 'mail' group)!

            Geoff
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