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  • Frank McNeill
    Hi All, Today s home page picture shows a frameless aluminum hull under construction at the Origami Magic company in Vancouver BC, Canada. They have stock
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 26, 2006
      Hi All,

      Today's home page picture shows a frameless aluminum hull under construction at the Origami Magic company in Vancouver BC, Canada. They have stock plans for origami hulls, but also use CAD to convert plans for framed boats into plans for origami hulls.
      We have discussed the possibility for printing plans for paper models on materials that are used to construct working models and then assembling the bits and pieces of these materials as hulls and decks for pop-pop models of steamboats. A lot of paper ship models are waterline types that would need below the waterline stuff to make them float.
      BIG QUESTION coming— could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces derived from kits for paper models as virtual models, that rapid prototype machines could render as real models for the production of mold cavities? These mold cavities could be lined with planks or printed sections of wood, plastic or metal, before pouring foam generating stuff in on top as a switch on the more labor intensive method for building ship models.
      I had a similar notion several years ago that's shown on page 6 of a pdf document titled "bamboo stuff" in the files section. There's also a link— in the links section probably— to some stuff I posted on the Deeshaa Network a while back. The link is titled "Bamboo Ship Models & Toys" and has less about construction, but more about a potential market made up of maritime organizations and museums that rely on gift shops for part of their income. Most of these gift shops don't sell boat models or toys though.
      If you haven't seen enough origami stuff, there's a discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/. Don't join this group if you have a tendency to faint when you see blood shed, or read about it, because a lot of the posts are about injuries sustained while using handheld power tools and welding equipment. One recent post was by somebody who wanted to find a source for fireproof overalls, probably because he had managed to set himself on fire with a cutting torch and come back for more.

      Best wishes, old Frank


    • Pete B.
      Hi Frank, I didn t forget you and your question. BIG QUESTION coming? could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces derived from kits for paper models
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 28, 2006

        Hi Frank,

        I didn't forget you and your question.

        "BIG QUESTION coming? could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces derived from kits for paper models as virtual models, that rapid prototype machines could render as real models for the production of mold cavities? These mold cavities could be lined with planks or printed sections of wood, plastic or metal, before pouring foam generating stuff in on top as a switch on the more labor intensive method for building ship models."

        The simple answer is yes, CAD can take the bits and pieces of paper models and assemble. It takes a knowledge of "Surfacing" software to create the contoured surfaces of a hull. I suspect that the Origami Magic Company has specialized surfacing software that was developed for the nautical and aircraft market.

        The CAD software that I use has 2D & 3D capabilities. The 3D can be created in wireframe, Solids and to some extent Surfaces. At this point I don't have much experience in Surfacing. In the work I do the prop blades are done in a preliminary CAD package that links the design formula to a Surface. From the surfaces the engineer gives me profile points or the profile splines at a given radius. I import into my CAD software and develop a Solids model by lofting the tip and root profiles. Next I generate a Solids of the hub. I postion the Solids blade on the hub per our design. Once in place I trim the root to the radius of the hub and the tip to the O.D. radius. I them copy the single blade into a radial array based on the numberof blade required for the required air flow.

        I have used Rapid Prototyping a number of times to generate plastic props and aluminum castings. I export my Solids file to our vendor in a format that he can import with his software. In most cases the part can be 3D printed in any number of materials, primarily plastics. In the case of Aluminum castings the part is printed in wax. This wax pattern is used in the Investment (lost wax) process.

        In the case of Rapid prototyping a hull a shell could be printed or 2 negative halves of a mold could be generated from a 3D hull model and then used as you suggest.

        The process is quite interesting as paper dimensioned drawings don't have to be involved at all. The down side is cost. We recently got a quote for 2 pieces of a 4" diameter prop at $365 ea. It all becomes relative.

        Pete



        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > Today's home page picture shows a frameless aluminum hull under construction
        > at the Origami Magic company in Vancouver BC, Canada. They have stock plans
        > for origami hulls, but also use CAD to convert plans for framed boats into
        > plans for origami hulls.
        > We have discussed the possibility for printing plans for paper models on
        > materials that are used to construct working models and then assembling the
        > bits and pieces of these materials as hulls and decks for pop-pop models of
        > steamboats. A lot of paper ship models are waterline types that would need
        > below the waterline stuff to make them float.
        > BIG QUESTION coming? could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces
        > derived from kits for paper models as virtual models, that rapid prototype
        > machines could render as real models for the production of mold cavities?
        > These mold cavities could be lined with planks or printed sections of wood,
        > plastic or metal, before pouring foam generating stuff in on top as a switch
        > on the more labor intensive method for building ship models.
        > I had a similar notion several years ago that's shown on page 6 of a pdf
        > document titled "bamboo stuff" in the files section. There's also a link? in
        > the links section probably? to some stuff I posted on the Deeshaa Network a
        > while back. The link is titled "Bamboo Ship Models & Toys" and has less
        > about construction, but more about a potential market made up of maritime
        > organizations and museums that rely on gift shops for part of their income.
        > Most of these gift shops don't sell boat models or toys though.
        > If you haven't seen enough origami stuff, there's a discussion group at:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/. Don't join this group if you
        > have a tendency to faint when you see blood shed, or read about it, because
        > a lot of the posts are about injuries sustained while using handheld power
        > tools and welding equipment. One recent post was by somebody who wanted to
        > find a source for fireproof overalls, probably because he had managed to set
        > himself on fire with a cutting torch and come back for more.
        >
        > Best wishes, old Frank
        >

      • Frank McNeill
        Hi Pete, Thank you for your simple answer, Yes to my complicated question. It would seem to verify a possibility that our member Dave M, and members of
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 28, 2006
          Hi Pete,

          Thank you for your simple answer, "Yes" to my complicated question. It would seem to verify a possibility that our member Dave M, and members of Dave's ModelersCad discussion group might be interested in pursuing, possibly with assistance from David Hathaway, the "Paper Shipwright," who has an impressive assortment of paper models on his website at < www.papershipwright.co.uk>.
          I don't believe that pop-pop boats will ever become the favorite toys that they were before WW2 when I was a kid. But there is a potential market consisting in an unknown number of maritime institutions and museums that rely on gift shops for part of their income. These gift shops might have framed pictures of old steamboats and ships, but don't expect to find models of these vessels, because it is unlikely that you will find any. There are also a lot of groups that have been organized to maintain or restore the last of their "heritage" ships. Go to: http://www.pskc.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm and click on "Links" to find groups in the UK and other nations that are, or will be, trying to find ways to obtain the large sums that are required for restoring old boats and ships.
          For a prime example in the US, go to <http://www.smithsonianstore.com/home.jsp> for the Smithsonian's online gift shop. The Smithsonian is one of the first place model designers go to for information about old ships. You won't find any ship or boat models in the online shop though.

          old Frank

           

          On 11/28/06, Pete B. < georgeyyy@...> wrote:

          Hi Frank,

          I didn't forget you and your question.

          "BIG QUESTION coming? could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces derived from kits for paper models as virtual models, that rapid prototype machines could render as real models for the production of mold cavities? These mold cavities could be lined with planks or printed sections of wood, plastic or metal, before pouring foam generating stuff in on top as a switch on the more labor intensive method for building ship models."

          The simple answer is yes, CAD can take the bits and pieces of paper models and assemble. It takes a knowledge of "Surfacing" software to create the contoured surfaces of a hull. I suspect that the Origami Magic Company has specialized surfacing software that was developed for the nautical and aircraft market.

          The CAD software that I use has 2D & 3D capabilities. The 3D can be created in wireframe, Solids and to some extent Surfaces. At this point I don't have much experience in Surfacing. In the work I do the prop blades are done in a preliminary CAD package that links the design formula to a Surface. From the surfaces the engineer gives me profile points or the profile splines at a given radius. I import into my CAD software and develop a Solids model by lofting the tip and root profiles. Next I generate a Solids of the hub. I postion the Solids blade on the hub per our design. Once in place I trim the root to the radius of the hub and the tip to the O.D. radius. I them copy the single blade into a radial array based on the numberof blade required for the required air flow.

          I have used Rapid Prototyping a number of times to generate plastic props and aluminum castings. I export my Solids file to our vendor in a format that he can import with his software. In most cases the part can be 3D printed in any number of materials, primarily plastics. In the case of Aluminum castings the part is printed in wax. This wax pattern is used in the Investment (lost wax) process.

          In the case of Rapid prototyping a hull a shell could be printed or 2 negative halves of a mold could be generated from a 3D hull model and then used as you suggest.

          The process is quite interesting as paper dimensioned drawings don't have to be involved at all. The down side is cost. We recently got a quote for 2 pieces of a 4" diameter prop at $365 ea. It all becomes relative.

          Pete



          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          >
          > Today's home page picture shows a frameless aluminum hull under construction
          > at the Origami Magic company in Vancouver BC, Canada. They have stock plans
          > for origami hulls, but also use CAD to convert plans for framed boats into
          > plans for origami hulls.
          > We have discussed the possibility for printing plans for paper models on
          > materials that are used to construct working models and then assembling the
          > bits and pieces of these materials as hulls and decks for pop-pop models of
          > steamboats. A lot of paper ship models are waterline types that would need
          > below the waterline stuff to make them float.
          > BIG QUESTION coming? could CAD be used to assemble virtual bits and pieces
          > derived from kits for paper models as virtual models, that rapid prototype
          > machines could render as real models for the production of mold cavities?
          > These mold cavities could be lined with planks or printed sections of wood,
          > plastic or metal, before pouring foam generating stuff in on top as a switch
          > on the more labor intensive method for building ship models.
          > I had a similar notion several years ago that's shown on page 6 of a pdf
          > document titled "bamboo stuff" in the files section. There's also a link? in
          > the links section probably? to some stuff I posted on the Deeshaa Network a
          > while back. The link is titled "Bamboo Ship Models & Toys" and has less
          > about construction, but more about a potential market made up of maritime
          > organizations and museums that rely on gift shops for part of their income.
          > Most of these gift shops don't sell boat models or toys though.
          > If you haven't seen enough origami stuff, there's a discussion group at:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/. Don't join this group if you
          > have a tendency to faint when you see blood shed, or read about it, because
          > a lot of the posts are about injuries sustained while using handheld power
          > tools and welding equipment. One recent post was by somebody who wanted to
          > find a source for fireproof overalls, probably because he had managed to set
          > himself on fire with a cutting torch and come back for more.
          >
          > Best wishes, old Frank
          >


        • Pete B.
          Frank, You said: There are also a lot of groups that have been organized to maintain or restore the last of their heritage ships. There is a New York group
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 29, 2006

            Frank,

            You said:

            "There are also a lot of groups that have been organized to maintain or restore the last of their "heritage" ships."

            There is a New York group http://www.sscolumbia.org/home.html that is working on restoring the SS Columbia, a steamboat that was once based in Detroit. Their goal is to refurbish and bring up to code so that she can offer cruises up and down the Hudson River. She's not as large as some of the old steamboats from the Hudson River Dayline Co., but if my memory is right she holds approx 2500. Still a good size!

            The Saugerties Fulton Steamboat Foundation had major fund raising issues in trying to build a second replica of the North River. The group was all volunteers with little or no fund raising experience. We had a dream that never really got up a full head of steam. One by one members got discouraged and dropped out. As far as I know I am the only active participant in the Fulton Project. That I am doing on my own with the support of new found interest such as yours and several others. I'd rather see a little Pop-pop CLERMONT for sale in museums than have the project die altoghether.

            I'll have to look up the ModelersCad discussion group. There just may be something that I can contribute. I know that they'll have stuff that I can learn.

            Better quit for now and earn my pay. Keep the ideas flowing (As if you wouldn't!).

            Pete

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Pete,
            >
            > Thank you for your simple answer, "Yes" to my complicated question. It would
            > seem to verify a possibility that our member Dave M, and members of Dave's
            > ModelersCad discussion group might be interested in pursuing, possibly with
            > assistance from David Hathaway, the "Paper Shipwright," who has an
            > impressive assortment of paper models on his website at <
            > www.papershipwright.co.uk>.
            > I don't believe that pop-pop boats will ever become the favorite toys that
            > they were before WW2 when I was a kid. But there is a potential market
            > consisting in an unknown number of maritime institutions and museums that
            > rely on gift shops for part of their income. These gift shops might have
            > framed pictures of old steamboats and ships, but don't expect to find models
            > of these vessels, because it is unlikely that you will find any. There are
            > also a lot of groups that have been organized to maintain or restore the
            > last of their "heritage" ships. Go to:
            > http://www.pskc.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm and click on "Links" to find
            > groups in the UK and other nations that are, or will be, trying to find ways
            > to obtain the large sums that are required for restoring old boats and
            > ships.
            > For a prime example in the US, go to <
            > http://www.smithsonianstore.com/home.jsp> for the Smithsonian's online gift
            > shop. The Smithsonian is one of the first place model designers go to for
            > information about old ships. You won't find any ship or boat models in the
            > online shop though.
            >
            > old Frank

          • Frank McNeill
            Hi All, Today s home page picture was borrowed from Google images. It shows the rebel Edmund Ruffin s house burning, and was used to suggest that there are a
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 30, 2006
              Hi All,

              Today's home page picture was "borrowed" from Google images. It shows the rebel Edmund Ruffin's house burning, and was used to suggest that there are a lot of pictures of Civil War ironclads and blockade runners that could be modeled as pop-pop boats. We have a few members of the excellent ironclads group for maritime wargamers at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ironclads/ who might be interested in posting comments, or corresponding on or off line with our new member Barry McClelland regarding sources for plans and models that could provide him with dimensions for pop-pop models. There are a lot of similar sources, such as Orin Palmer's splendid computer generated images at < http://members.cox.net/ironmonger/< and the Ironclads and Blockade Runners web site at
              <http://www.wideopenwest.com/~jenkins/ironclads/ironclad.htm
              >. The potential market for pop-pop models of this kind would include a number of Civil War museums that have gift shops with no working or display models to sell, and research organizations like Texas A&M's Institute of Nautical Archeology which has an online gift shop at < http://ina.tamu.edu/inastore/inashop2002.htm> with just about the least nautical merchandise that I know of. Given the large number of similar gift shops that don't sell working or display models of vintage ships and boats, it's fairly safe to assume that there is a big potential market out there waiting for somebody to bust it wide open.

              old Frank


            • Barry McClelland
              Hi All, I tried one again to send the info about my casting and mold making techniques. I am having problems with being bounced by Yahoo Groups by my Yahoo web
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 6, 2006
                Hi All,
                  I tried one again to send the info about my casting and mold making techniques. I am having problems with being bounced by Yahoo Groups by my Yahoo web site. I am interested in working on some parts!!!!!!!!
                     Thanks Barry
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:17 AM
                Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Today's home page picture

                Hi All,

                Today's home page picture was "borrowed" from Google images. It shows the rebel Edmund Ruffin's house burning, and was used to suggest that there are a lot of pictures of Civil War ironclads and blockade runners that could be modeled as pop-pop boats. We have a few members of the excellent ironclads group for maritime wargamers at: http://games. groups.yahoo. com/group/ ironclads/ who might be interested in posting comments, or corresponding on or off line with our new member Barry McClelland regarding sources for plans and models that could provide him with dimensions for pop-pop models. There are a lot of similar sources, such as Orin Palmer's splendid computer generated images at < http://members. cox.net/ironmong er/< and the Ironclads and Blockade Runners web site at
                <http://www.wideopen west.com/ ~jenkins/ ironclads/ ironclad. htm >. The potential market for pop-pop models of this kind would include a number of Civil War museums that have gift shops with no working or display models to sell, and research organizations like Texas A&M's Institute of Nautical Archeology which has an online gift shop at < http://ina.tamu. edu/inastore/ inashop2002. htm> with just about the least nautical merchandise that I know of. Given the large number of similar gift shops that don't sell working or display models of vintage ships and boats, it's fairly safe to assume that there is a big potential market out there waiting for somebody to bust it wide open.

                old Frank



                Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/06
              • Frank McNeill
                Hi All, Today s newest of numerous new home page pictures shows a clip from an article by Len Stevens from the April 1996 issue of Model Boats magazine that
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007

                  Hi All,

                  Today's newest of numerous new home page pictures shows a clip from an article by Len Stevens from the April 1996 issue of Model Boats magazine that Richard Jenkins posted to files. This was the article that inspired his construction of our poster child "Popflea" which can be seen in our photos section and his observation about the superior performance of boilers made of square brass tubing over round tube and diaphragm type boilers.
                  Our principal source of "inspiration" for designing pop-pop boats that look like real steamboats will probably be card stock models that will require boilers with shrouds and smokestacks and tubes that extend down through the bottoms of hulls rather than back through their sterns. There was a discussion thread in January about a hotter burning fuel in which Vance Bass wrote that:
                  "My experience indicates that you don't necessarily want a hotter fuel. The problem is that a really hot fire makes it harder to get the cold zone necessary for the condensation part of the pulse cycle. I built a boat with a very hot alcohol burner and the thing would not run after a short period. When I changed the burner to something less aggressive, it ran fine. So I think that if you are going to have a really hot burner, you must also take pains to have a really effective cool zone. This could be a sump pump evaporator (or) running the tubes into the water and along the underside of the boat rather than out the rear transom. regards, -vance-"
                  If you look at the current home page picture, you will understand how this could be done by rotating either of the versions so the propulsion tubes would go down, rather than back, and have a 90-degree bend to expel water horizontally under the hull.
                  This would also rotate the horseshoe loop to a position over a candle or burner inside a shroud that would direct waste heat up through a smokestack that any respectable steamboat model would possess.

                  ttfn, old Frank
                • Pete B.
                  Hi Frank, On break & Checked out the messages... I have two questions based your home pixs: * Where did the bread & Butter boat kit picture originate? * Do
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007

                    Hi Frank,

                    On break & Checked out the messages...

                    I have two questions based your home pixs:

                    • Where did the "bread & Butter" boat kit picture originate?
                    • Do you know if there ar tube boilers commecially available? I've seen the diaphgm type but not the tube type.

                    I also like the K. G. Wells (Model Engineer 14 AUG 63) "jet boat" that you uploaded to our FILES section. I'm going to look at redrawing the pattern in CAD and then post in FILES. More later....

                    Pete

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    >
                    > Today's newest of numerous new home page pictures shows a clip from an
                    > article by Len Stevens from the April 1996 issue of Model Boats magazine
                    > that Richard Jenkins posted to files. This was the article that inspired his
                    > construction of our poster child "Popflea" which can be seen in our photos
                    > section and his observation about the superior performance of boilers made
                    > of square brass tubing over round tube and diaphragm type boilers.
                    > Our principal source of "inspiration" for designing pop-pop boats that look
                    > like real steamboats will probably be card stock models that will require
                    > boilers with shrouds and smokestacks and tubes that extend down through the
                    > bottoms of hulls rather than back through their sterns. There was a
                    > discussion thread in January about a hotter burning fuel in which Vance Bass
                    > wrote that:
                    > "My experience indicates that you don't necessarily want a hotter fuel. The
                    > problem is that a really hot fire makes it harder to get the cold zone
                    > necessary for the condensation part of the pulse cycle. I built a boat with
                    > a very hot alcohol burner and the thing would not run after a short period.
                    > When I changed the burner to something less aggressive, it ran fine. So I
                    > think that if you are going to have a really hot burner, you must also take
                    > pains to have a really effective cool zone. This could be a sump pump
                    > evaporator (or) running the tubes into the water and along the underside of
                    > the boat rather than out the rear transom. regards, -vance-"
                    > If you look at the current home page picture, you will understand how this
                    > could be done by rotating either of the versions so the propulsion tubes
                    > would go down, rather than back, and have a 90-degree bend to expel water
                    > horizontally under the hull.
                    > This would also rotate the horseshoe loop to a position over a candle or
                    > burner inside a shroud that would direct waste heat up through a smokestack
                    > that any respectable steamboat model would possess.
                    >
                    > ttfn, old Frank
                    >

                  • Frank McNeill
                    Hi Pete, ... Go to http://tinyurl.com/25yv72 and scroll down for an image for a kit for a lifeboat to see the bread and butter thing. ... I don t know if there
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007
                      Hi Pete,
                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Frank,
                      >
                      > On break & Checked out the messages...
                      >
                      > I have two questions based your home pixs:
                      >
                      > * Where did the "bread & Butter" boat kit picture originate?

                      Go to http://tinyurl.com/25yv72 and scroll down for an image for a kit for a lifeboat to see the bread and butter thing.

                      > * Do you know if there ar tube boilers commecially available? I've
                      > seen the diaphgm type but not the tube type.

                      I don't know if there are any tube boilers or not. Most people probably  buy  tubing and wrap it around a broom stick or something to make their own.
                      >
                      > I also like the K. G. Wells (Model Engineer 14 AUG 63) "jet boat" that
                      > you uploaded to our FILES section. I'm going to look at redrawing the
                      > pattern in CAD and then post in FILES. More later....
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                      > frankmcneilll@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi All,
                      > >
                      > > Today's newest of numerous new home page pictures shows a clip from an
                      > > article by Len Stevens from the April 1996 issue of Model Boats
                      > magazine
                      > > that Richard Jenkins posted to files. This was the article that
                      > inspired his
                      > > construction of our poster child "Popflea" which can be seen in our
                      > photos
                      > > section and his observation about the superior performance of boilers
                      > made
                      > > of square brass tubing over round tube and diaphragm type boilers.
                      > > Our principal source of "inspiration" for designing pop-pop boats that
                      > look
                      > > like real steamboats will probably be card stock models that will
                      > require
                      > > boilers with shrouds and smokestacks and tubes that extend down
                      > through the
                      > > bottoms of hulls rather than back through their sterns. There was a
                      > > discussion thread in January about a hotter burning fuel in which
                      > Vance Bass
                      > > wrote that:
                      > > "My experience indicates that you don't necessarily want a hotter
                      > fuel. The
                      > > problem is that a really hot fire makes it harder to get the cold zone
                      > > necessary for the condensation part of the pulse cycle. I built a boat
                      > with
                      > > a very hot alcohol burner and the thing would not run after a short
                      > period.
                      > > When I changed the burner to something less aggressive, it ran fine.
                      > So I
                      > > think that if you are going to have a really hot burner, you must also
                      > take
                      > > pains to have a really effective cool zone. This could be a sump pump
                      > > evaporator (or) running the tubes into the water and along the
                      > underside of
                      > > the boat rather than out the rear transom. regards, -vance-"
                      > > If you look at the current home page picture, you will understand how
                      > this
                      > > could be done by rotating either of the versions so the propulsion
                      > tubes
                      > > would go down, rather than back, and have a 90-degree bend to expel
                      > water
                      > > horizontally under the hull.
                      > > This would also rotate the horseshoe loop to a position over a candle
                      > or
                      > > burner inside a shroud that would direct waste heat up through a
                      > smokestack
                      > > that any respectable steamboat model would possess.
                      > >
                      > > ttfn, old Frank
                      > >
                      >
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