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Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Make Magazine Vol 28

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  • William Abernathy
    Slater: I have no question that Joe s posting was due to enthusiasm, not malice, and I ascribe and offer no ill intention to him for posting it. When Issue 29
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 22, 2011
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      Slater:

      I have no question that Joe's posting was due to enthusiasm, not malice, and I
      ascribe and offer no ill intention to him for posting it. When Issue 29 is on
      the stands, I will turn a blind eye to any reposts, but I am a freelancer and
      not an employee or agent of the magazine, so you're on your own if they find out.

      I've just wrapped up an interview with the editors (them intervieing me), and
      that interview should be up this week. With that interview should be a link to
      the boat in action at:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xb3cz5C08Y

      At the time I gave this interview, my recollection of the course of events with
      this article was different from yours. As I remembered things, I was warned off
      of aluminum diaphragms because they could not be easily or cheaply soldered. I
      honestly thought using JB Weld and aluminum can stock in this configuration was
      my own idea, and this is the recollection that's going to be reflected in the
      interview.

      Reviewing the group files, I do now note your June 7 suggestion to use epoxy,
      albeit for a different application (the sciencetoymaker "folded soda can" plan,
      which recommends hi-temp silicone glue), so I apologize if I stepped on any
      priority there or failed to recognize your contribution. The rest of the design
      I consider novel (as far as any of our "footnotes" on the original invention can
      be so considered) insofar as I'm using an aluminum soda can diaphragm in a way
      that I have not seen anyone else do.

      The issue with boiler depth may just have been one of dumb luck. (Bear in mind
      also that this is the Altoid Smalls tin, not the full-sized tins you may be more
      used to seeing.) I wanted to work with "found"/low-cost/easy-to-source
      materials. Though I have a roll of .003" brass stock, I could not source this
      material at either the local hardware store or the local hobby shop, and I could
      not recommend casual Make readers run out to order a $15 roll of brass sheet to
      make one toy boat. Folding the Altoid tin more or less in half (vertically)
      obviously reduces the volume substantially, and I folded it inward to give good
      mechanical support to the diaphragm, top and bottom, irrespective of the JB
      Weld's bond. The JB Weld holds the whole thing together, but the basic structure
      helps it along. I went through about a dozen failed "rough draft" engines, and
      ate a lot of Altoid Smalls that month. This one came together on deadline around
      July, and I was starting to pull out hair trying to document it, test it, and
      get it ready for prime time.

      How long this engine will last is a question of time and care. JB Weld, as I
      note in the article, breaks down around the same temperature as solder, if not a
      little higher. Eventually, if the JB Weld does not fail, the boiler will rust
      out (another advantage of non-ferrous boiler designs). It's by no means an
      heirloom, but it is a great place to give people an introduction to this
      fascinating type of steam engine, and hopefully bring a few moments of
      low-budget mirth to some families this holiday season.

      I hope to see a few new faces around here as a result of the article.

      I'll be happy to answer any more questions as they come.

      --William



      Slater Harrison wrote:
      >
      >
      > William,
      >
      > Congrats on the Make article! I do subscribe and I read your piece: nice
      > work. I think we’re all cheering you on. When someone makes more
      > accessible these devices we all love, and creates some ripples, all
      > boats will rise!
      >
      > As for the PDF Joe put up, there is no question that it is a clear
      > violation of copyright—albeit well intentioned. That said, you have
      > benefitted from being part of this cozy, informal forum. For example,
      > the general idea to use an aluminum soda can, and then use epoxy instead
      > of solder, was gotten from a member of this forum, freely shared.
      >
      > So perhaps you could treat us to a video of your boat running, or some
      > behind the scenes commentary about developing it, in lieu of the
      > copyrighted article. I know that I tried making traditional pop pop
      > engines with my students—quite shallow, not deep like yours--but the
      > flame still overheated the epoxy and made leaks. I am wondering if, by
      > using that tall altoid can, the heat is farther away and the vertical
      > wall radiates out enough heat to not cause leaks. If so, that’s
      > brilliant and my hat is off to you. Also, bending the edges in rather
      > than out was a smart move.
      >
      > By the way, my e-mail filter is capricious. Despite approving the Yahoo
      > forum, I usually find the posts weeks later—if at all—in my filter. So
      > if I don’t respond to something specific it’s not intentional.
      >
      > Slater
      >
      > *From:* pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *William Abernathy
      > *Sent:* Saturday, October 22, 2011 11:47 AM
      > *To:* pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
      > *Subject:* Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Make Magazine Vol 28
      >
      > Joe: I don't mean to be a meanie, but could you please respect Make's
      > copyright
      > on this one, at least until the next issue hits the stands? I wrote the
      > article,
      > I haven't even seen a print version of it yet, and you've already put it up
      > online. I have no financial interest either way (been paid already) but the
      > folks at Make ought be able to make their living too.
      >
      > As for Altoid tins... The magazine doesn't have any cross-promotion deal
      > with
      > them or anything like that. It's just that those little tins are so
      > darned handy...
      >
      > --William
      >
      > andor_99833 wrote:
      > > this quarter's make magazine (makezine.com) is on toys and games.
      > i've uploaded a pdf article (poppop.pdf)on making a poppop boat.
      > >
      > > the make people tend to use alot of altoid cans as raw materials.
      > >
      > > joe
      > > petersburg, ak
      >
      > --
      > William Abernathy
      > Berkeley, CA
      > http://yourwritereditor.com
      >


      --
      William Abernathy
      Berkeley, CA
      http://yourwritereditor.com
    • Slater Harrison
      William, I had to laugh at the, ... and ate a lot of Altoid Smalls that month part! It s not unusual for discoveries to me made independently, even
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 22, 2011
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        William,

        I had to laugh at the, "... and ate a lot of Altoid Smalls that month" part!

        It's not unusual for discoveries to me made independently, even simultaneously. Scientific history is full of examples. I will say that it is a matter of record that I was using aluminum for putt putt engines, recorded in this instructional video and elsewhere in the series, sealed with epoxy without silicone, a very different design than yours.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8dEyNAcOYU

        It's wonderful how no single person has all the ideas. The variations are what keep things moving and interesting.

        I liked your explanation about momentum making the water piston overshoot its equilibrium. Very well put.

        Cheers,
        Slater

        -----Original Message-----
        From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Abernathy
        Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 5:49 PM
        To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Make Magazine Vol 28

        Slater:

        I have no question that Joe's posting was due to enthusiasm, not malice, and I ascribe and offer no ill intention to him for posting it. When Issue 29 is on the stands, I will turn a blind eye to any reposts, but I am a freelancer and not an employee or agent of the magazine, so you're on your own if they find out.

        I've just wrapped up an interview with the editors (them intervieing me), and that interview should be up this week. With that interview should be a link to the boat in action at:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xb3cz5C08Y

        At the time I gave this interview, my recollection of the course of events with this article was different from yours. As I remembered things, I was warned off of aluminum diaphragms because they could not be easily or cheaply soldered. I honestly thought using JB Weld and aluminum can stock in this configuration was my own idea, and this is the recollection that's going to be reflected in the interview.

        Reviewing the group files, I do now note your June 7 suggestion to use epoxy, albeit for a different application (the sciencetoymaker "folded soda can" plan, which recommends hi-temp silicone glue), so I apologize if I stepped on any priority there or failed to recognize your contribution. The rest of the design I consider novel (as far as any of our "footnotes" on the original invention can be so considered) insofar as I'm using an aluminum soda can diaphragm in a way that I have not seen anyone else do.

        The issue with boiler depth may just have been one of dumb luck. (Bear in mind also that this is the Altoid Smalls tin, not the full-sized tins you may be more used to seeing.) I wanted to work with "found"/low-cost/easy-to-source materials. Though I have a roll of .003" brass stock, I could not source this material at either the local hardware store or the local hobby shop, and I could not recommend casual Make readers run out to order a $15 roll of brass sheet to make one toy boat. Folding the Altoid tin more or less in half (vertically) obviously reduces the volume substantially, and I folded it inward to give good mechanical support to the diaphragm, top and bottom, irrespective of the JB Weld's bond. The JB Weld holds the whole thing together, but the basic structure helps it along. I went through about a dozen failed "rough draft" engines, and ate a lot of Altoid Smalls that month. This one came together on deadline around July, and I was starting to pull out hair trying to document it, test it, and get it ready for prime time.

        How long this engine will last is a question of time and care. JB Weld, as I note in the article, breaks down around the same temperature as solder, if not a little higher. Eventually, if the JB Weld does not fail, the boiler will rust out (another advantage of non-ferrous boiler designs). It's by no means an heirloom, but it is a great place to give people an introduction to this fascinating type of steam engine, and hopefully bring a few moments of low-budget mirth to some families this holiday season.

        I hope to see a few new faces around here as a result of the article.

        I'll be happy to answer any more questions as they come.

        --William



        Slater Harrison wrote:
        >
        >
        > William,
        >
        > Congrats on the Make article! I do subscribe and I read your piece:
        > nice work. I think we're all cheering you on. When someone makes more
        > accessible these devices we all love, and creates some ripples, all
        > boats will rise!
        >
        > As for the PDF Joe put up, there is no question that it is a clear
        > violation of copyright-albeit well intentioned. That said, you have
        > benefitted from being part of this cozy, informal forum. For example,
        > the general idea to use an aluminum soda can, and then use epoxy
        > instead of solder, was gotten from a member of this forum, freely shared.
        >
        > So perhaps you could treat us to a video of your boat running, or some
        > behind the scenes commentary about developing it, in lieu of the
        > copyrighted article. I know that I tried making traditional pop pop
        > engines with my students-quite shallow, not deep like yours--but the
        > flame still overheated the epoxy and made leaks. I am wondering if, by
        > using that tall altoid can, the heat is farther away and the vertical
        > wall radiates out enough heat to not cause leaks. If so, that's
        > brilliant and my hat is off to you. Also, bending the edges in rather
        > than out was a smart move.
        >
        > By the way, my e-mail filter is capricious. Despite approving the
        > Yahoo forum, I usually find the posts weeks later-if at all-in my
        > filter. So if I don't respond to something specific it's not intentional.
        >
        > Slater
        >
        > *From:* pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *William
        > Abernathy
        > *Sent:* Saturday, October 22, 2011 11:47 AM
        > *To:* pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
        > *Subject:* Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Make Magazine Vol 28
        >
        > Joe: I don't mean to be a meanie, but could you please respect Make's
        > copyright on this one, at least until the next issue hits the stands?
        > I wrote the article, I haven't even seen a print version of it yet,
        > and you've already put it up online. I have no financial interest
        > either way (been paid already) but the folks at Make ought be able to
        > make their living too.
        >
        > As for Altoid tins... The magazine doesn't have any cross-promotion
        > deal with them or anything like that. It's just that those little tins
        > are so darned handy...
        >
        > --William
        >
        > andor_99833 wrote:
        > > this quarter's make magazine (makezine.com) is on toys and games.
        > i've uploaded a pdf article (poppop.pdf)on making a poppop boat.
        > >
        > > the make people tend to use alot of altoid cans as raw materials.
        > >
        > > joe
        > > petersburg, ak
        >
        > --
        > William Abernathy
        > Berkeley, CA
        > http://yourwritereditor.com
        >


        --
        William Abernathy
        Berkeley, CA
        http://yourwritereditor.com


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      • zoomkat
        ... I get ~3 altoid cans a week from a co-worker. My intention is to make a multi wick burner for a larger engine.
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 23, 2011
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          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Peak45" <wayne.9003@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Guys,what is an Altoid can ??
          >

          I get ~3 altoid cans a week from a co-worker. My intention is to make a multi wick burner for a larger engine.
        • David Halfpenny (y)
          ... Has anyone tried using aluminium solder? David 1/2d
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 24, 2011
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            --------------------------------------------------

            > I was warned off
            > of aluminum diaphragms because they could not be easily or cheaply
            > soldered.

            Has anyone tried using aluminium solder?

            David 1/2d
          • Ivan Foster
            Yes, Still to hard for me. Someone on here modified fuel pumps and bolted in the diaphragm, I like the idea but have jet to try it. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 24, 2011
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              Yes, Still to hard for me. Someone on here modified fuel pumps and bolted in the diaphragm, I like the idea but have jet to try it.


              On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:57 PM, David Halfpenny (y) <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:

              --------------------------------------------------

              >  I was warned off
              > of aluminum diaphragms because they could not be easily or cheaply
              > soldered.

              Has anyone tried using aluminium solder?

              David 1/2d



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            • mike.recycle
              ... I have ordered some Techno-Weld, here are 3 videos about it. I found the supplier here in UK via Google. Mike
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 25, 2011
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                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)" <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:
                > > I was warned off
                > > of aluminum diaphragms because they could not be easily or cheaply
                > > soldered.
                >
                > Has anyone tried using aluminium solder?

                I have ordered some Techno-Weld, here are 3 videos about it. I found the supplier here in UK via Google.

                Mike
              • zoomkat
                ... JB Weld engine from a long time back.
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 25, 2011
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                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, William Abernathy <william@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >. I
                  > honestly thought using JB Weld and aluminum can stock in this configuration was
                  > my own idea, and this is the recollection that's going to be reflected in the interview.

                  JB Weld engine from a long time back.

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pop-pop-steamboats/photos/album/1755869487/pic/832500701/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                • William Abernathy
                  Well, there goes my patent application! --W ... -- William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 25, 2011
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                    Well, there goes my patent application!

                    --W

                    zoomkat wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, William Abernathy<william@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> . I
                    >> honestly thought using JB Weld and aluminum can stock in this configuration was
                    >> my own idea, and this is the recollection that's going to be reflected in the interview.
                    >
                    > JB Weld engine from a long time back.
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pop-pop-steamboats/photos/album/1755869487/pic/832500701/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc


                    --
                    William Abernathy
                    Berkeley, CA
                    http://yourwritereditor.com
                  • mike.recycle
                    Didn t know about JB Weld, just checked and claimed temperature resistance is: JB Weld: 500 F (260 C) Techno Weld: 716 F (380 C) So JB Weld looks not
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 26, 2011
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                      Didn't know about JB Weld, just checked and claimed temperature resistance is:
                      JB Weld: 500 F (260 C)
                      Techno Weld: 716 F (380 C)
                      So JB Weld looks not bad, for an epoxy,
                      JB Weld Kwik has allegedly about half that heat resistance.
                      Mike

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, William Abernathy <william@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, there goes my patent application!
                      >
                      > --W
                      >
                      > zoomkat wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, William Abernathy<william@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> . I
                      > >> honestly thought using JB Weld and aluminum can stock in this configuration was
                      > >> my own idea, and this is the recollection that's going to be reflected in the interview.
                      > >
                      > > JB Weld engine from a long time back.
                      > >
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pop-pop-steamboats/photos/album/1755869487/pic/832500701/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > William Abernathy
                      > Berkeley, CA
                      > http://yourwritereditor.com
                      >
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