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Re: Reversing clam shell rudder

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  • Frank McNeill
    Hi Zoomkat, It s called a Kitchen Rudder because it was invented by somebody named Kitchen. Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder for details. Best
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 17, 2011
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      Hi Zoomkat,

      It's called a Kitchen Rudder because it was invented by somebody named Kitchen.
      Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder for details.

      Best Wishes, Old Frank

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
      >
      > Just some interest in making a prototype reversing clam shell rudder. Below are two pieces of cardboard to simulate one possible simple design. Another idea would be to have a reversing mechanism that would be lowered behind the exhaust pipes when needed. Probably best used with the larger high performance engines. Just curous if anybody has had a ~successful reversing design.
      >
      > http://web.comporium.net/~shb/pix/clam1.jpg
      >
      > http://web.comporium.net/~shb/pix/clam2.jpg
      >
    • zoomkat
      Yes, I ve looked at that page in the past. The drawings for the 1990 design have rounded components which might be difficult to duplicate for the pop pop
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 17, 2011
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        Yes, I've looked at that page in the past. The drawings for the 1990 design have rounded components which might be difficult to duplicate for the pop pop boats. I was thinking that a simple squared edge test rudder might be made using thick aluminum foil (like used in disposable food trays) might be easy to test. The real brain teaser (if the rudder actually could produce reverse motion) would be making a linkage setup that would use a single servo for foward, reverse, left, and right rudder positioning. I'll need to somehow (maybe using mini aquarium tubing) bundle together and extend the exhaust pipes out from the boat transom for testing.

        > Hi Zoomkat,
        >
        > It's called a Kitchen Rudder because it was invented by somebody named Kitchen.
        > Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder for details.
        >
        > Best Wishes, Old Frank
      • Frank McNeill
        This item from Google Images might suggest stuff for making Kitchen Rudders. Go to http://tinyurl.com/3hz8h8n
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 18, 2011
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          This item from Google Images might suggest stuff for making Kitchen Rudders.
          Go to http://tinyurl.com/3hz8h8n

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes, I've looked at that page in the past. The drawings for the 1990 design have rounded components which might be difficult to duplicate for the pop pop boats. I was thinking that a simple squared edge test rudder might be made using thick aluminum foil (like used in disposable food trays) might be easy to test. The real brain teaser (if the rudder actually could produce reverse motion) would be making a linkage setup that would use a single servo for foward, reverse, left, and right rudder positioning. I'll need to somehow (maybe using mini aquarium tubing) bundle together and extend the exhaust pipes out from the boat transom for testing.
          >
          > > Hi Zoomkat,
          > >
          > > It's called a Kitchen Rudder because it was invented by somebody named Kitchen.
          > > Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder for details.
          > >
          > > Best Wishes, Old Frank
          >
        • Richard
          A Kitchen rudder equipped R/C pop-pop is still on my project list, but hasn t made it far off the drawing board yet. I plan to make the vanes for the rudder
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 18, 2011
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            A Kitchen rudder equipped R/C pop-pop is still on my project list, but hasn't made it far off the drawing board yet. I plan to make the vanes for the rudder out of brass, either cut from a 1/2" to 3/4" diameter tube, or formed out of sheet brass.

            The rudder post will have three parts, an inner shaft connected to one vane, surrounded by a tube connected to the other vane, surrounded by another tube that is not connected to either vane but is attached to the main tiller that turns the whole unit for steering. The post and the tube connected to the two vanes will also have their own mini-tillers that project out sideways at the top. These will be connected via pushrods to a piece that slides back and forth along the main tiller. When it is pushed back along the tiller, the vanes close to form the reversing cone. When it is pulled forward they open. And when the tiller is turned to port or starboard the vanes move in unison for steering.

            Somehow the reversing mechanism will need to be operated by a servo in some way that isn't affected by the swing of the tiller while steering. The simplest way would just be to mount the reversing servo on the tiller itself, but I'm trying to come up with a more elegant solution that keeps the servos out of sight.

            And for those who missed it before, yes the reversing rudder concept does work with a pop-pop. Here's a video of my experiment using a rudimentary reversing cone formed out of aluminum foil:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vNPEPUli0

            Richard Jenkins
          • Frank McNeill
            Is anybody considering development of a battery-powered pop-pop boat? Battery powered autos have been in the news lately, along with articles about global
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 18, 2011
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              Is anybody considering development of a battery-powered pop-pop boat? Battery powered autos have been in the news lately, along with articles about global warming and electric scooters for commuting to and from work.


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rjenkins@...> wrote:
              >
              > A Kitchen rudder equipped R/C pop-pop is still on my project list, but hasn't made it far off the drawing board yet. I plan to make the vanes for the rudder out of brass, either cut from a 1/2" to 3/4" diameter tube, or formed out of sheet brass.
              >
              > The rudder post will have three parts, an inner shaft connected to one vane, surrounded by a tube connected to the other vane, surrounded by another tube that is not connected to either vane but is attached to the main tiller that turns the whole unit for steering. The post and the tube connected to the two vanes will also have their own mini-tillers that project out sideways at the top. These will be connected via pushrods to a piece that slides back and forth along the main tiller. When it is pushed back along the tiller, the vanes close to form the reversing cone. When it is pulled forward they open. And when the tiller is turned to port or starboard the vanes move in unison for steering.
              >
              > Somehow the reversing mechanism will need to be operated by a servo in some way that isn't affected by the swing of the tiller while steering. The simplest way would just be to mount the reversing servo on the tiller itself, but I'm trying to come up with a more elegant solution that keeps the servos out of sight.
              >
              > And for those who missed it before, yes the reversing rudder concept does work with a pop-pop. Here's a video of my experiment using a rudimentary reversing cone formed out of aluminum foil:
              >
              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vNPEPUli0
              >
              > Richard Jenkins
              >
            • Jean-Yves Renaud
              The power of a birthday candle is approx 35W. Due to no thermal insulation, let s say that the power transmitted to the pop-pop engine is approx 18W. Assuming
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 18, 2011
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                The power of a birthday candle is approx 35W. Due to no thermal insulation, let's say that the power transmitted to the pop-pop engine is approx 18W. Assuming we want to run the engine for 2 minutes we would need a battery of more than 2.2kJ. This is not the more stringent criterium. Assuming we use a 6V battery it would mean 18/6=3A. And that is a big problem. As far as I know there is no small battery (rechargeable or not) able to deliver such a current. A battery able to supply a pop-pop engine would be too big and too heavy to be located on board a pop-pop boat.
                Sorry frank.

                Le 18/06/2011 17:45, Frank McNeill a écrit :
                 

                Is anybody considering development of a battery-powered pop-pop boat? Battery powered autos have been in the news lately, along with articles about global warming and electric scooters for commuting to and from work.

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rjenkins@...> wrote:
                >
                > A Kitchen rudder equipped R/C pop-pop is still on my project list, but hasn't made it far off the drawing board yet. I plan to make the vanes for the rudder out of brass, either cut from a 1/2" to 3/4" diameter tube, or formed out of sheet brass.
                >
                > The rudder post will have three parts, an inner shaft connected to one vane, surrounded by a tube connected to the other vane, surrounded by another tube that is not connected to either vane but is attached to the main tiller that turns the whole unit for steering. The post and the tube connected to the two vanes will also have their own mini-tillers that project out sideways at the top. These will be connected via pushrods to a piece that slides back and forth along the main tiller. When it is pushed back along the tiller, the vanes close to form the reversing cone. When it is pulled forward they open. And when the tiller is turned to port or starboard the vanes move in unison for steering.
                >
                > Somehow the reversing mechanism will need to be operated by a servo in some way that isn't affected by the swing of the tiller while steering. The simplest way would just be to mount the reversing servo on the tiller itself, but I'm trying to come up with a more elegant solution that keeps the servos out of sight.
                >
                > And for those who missed it before, yes the reversing rudder concept does work with a pop-pop. Here's a video of my experiment using a rudimentary reversing cone formed out of aluminum foil:
                >
                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vNPEPUli0
                >
                > Richard Jenkins
                >


              • Donald Qualls
                Small NiCd, NiMH, and even current generation Lithium Polymer cells can easily deliver 3A current -- in Lithium Polymer designations, you d need a 150
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 18, 2011
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                  Small NiCd, NiMH, and even current generation Lithium Polymer cells can
                  easily deliver 3A current -- in Lithium Polymer designations, you'd need
                  a 150 milliamp-hour capacity cell with 20C discharge rating, or
                  (cheaper) lower capacity multipliers for larger cells. Assuming 2
                  minutes at 3A current, you'd need an actual capacity of only 100 mAh
                  (and two cells to make 7.2 to 8 volts working voltage) to get your two
                  minute run (you might have to step up to 150 mAh 20C cells, however; I
                  haven't seen 30C ratings in cells that small), though you'd also need a
                  suitable smart charger, to avoid damaging cells due to overcharge, and a
                  safety circuit to avoid damaging the cells by excessive discharge
                  (mustn't drop below 3.0V per cell).

                  Now, a 150 mAh LiPo cell only weighs a few grams -- I see cells that
                  size used in model airplanes with total weight under an ounce, including
                  airframe, radio gear, motor and its gear drive. Add your electronics
                  and you'd still likely come up with a suitable heater and power supply
                  together that weigh about the same as a tea light candle.

                  Check out Hobby King online for prices on small, high current cells, but
                  I suspect they'd pay for themselves over the charge cycle life of the
                  battery, compared to buying tea light candles -- and the fire risk is
                  significantly lower.

                  Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The power of a birthday candle is approx 35W. Due to no thermal
                  > insulation, let's say that the power transmitted to the pop-pop engine
                  > is approx 18W. Assuming we want to run the engine for 2 minutes we would
                  > need a battery of more than 2.2kJ. This is not the more stringent
                  > criterium. Assuming we use a 6V battery it would mean 18/6=3A. And that
                  > is a big problem. As far as I know there is no small battery
                  > (rechargeable or not) able to deliver such a current. A battery able to
                  > supply a pop-pop engine would be too big and too heavy to be located on
                  > board a pop-pop boat.
                  > Sorry frank.
                  >


                  --
                  If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                  it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                  Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                  Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                  and don't expect them to be perfect.
                • Frank McNeill
                  Thank you, Jean-Yves and Donald for the information you provided re: the possibility for developing battery-powered pop-pop boats. If this could be done in a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 19, 2011
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                    Thank you, Jean-Yves and Donald for the information you provided re: the possibility for developing battery-powered pop-pop boats. If this could be done in a practical, or profitable manner, we could probably buy them at Walmart or ToysRus. They would have been manufactured because that is where most of our battery-powered toys come from, including my wretched little iPad thing. It isn't a real computer, because it isn't good for doing anything, other than playing games or drawing, using a finger rather than a computer "mouse." I can use it for email though, so it is still a little better than nothing at all. I would prefer an iPhone if there was some kind of projector that I could use in a closet, or storm cellar.
                    Old Frank

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Small NiCd, NiMH, and even current generation Lithium Polymer cells can
                    > easily deliver 3A current -- in Lithium Polymer designations, you'd need
                    > a 150 milliamp-hour capacity cell with 20C discharge rating, or
                    > (cheaper) lower capacity multipliers for larger cells. Assuming 2
                    > minutes at 3A current, you'd need an actual capacity of only 100 mAh
                    > (and two cells to make 7.2 to 8 volts working voltage) to get your two
                    > minute run (you might have to step up to 150 mAh 20C cells, however; I
                    > haven't seen 30C ratings in cells that small), though you'd also need a
                    > suitable smart charger, to avoid damaging cells due to overcharge, and a
                    > safety circuit to avoid damaging the cells by excessive discharge
                    > (mustn't drop below 3.0V per cell).
                    >
                    > Now, a 150 mAh LiPo cell only weighs a few grams -- I see cells that
                    > size used in model airplanes with total weight under an ounce, including
                    > airframe, radio gear, motor and its gear drive. Add your electronics
                    > and you'd still likely come up with a suitable heater and power supply
                    > together that weigh about the same as a tea light candle.
                    >
                    > Check out Hobby King online for prices on small, high current cells, but
                    > I suspect they'd pay for themselves over the charge cycle life of the
                    > battery, compared to buying tea light candles -- and the fire risk is
                    > significantly lower.
                    >
                    > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The power of a birthday candle is approx 35W. Due to no thermal
                    > > insulation, let's say that the power transmitted to the pop-pop engine
                    > > is approx 18W. Assuming we want to run the engine for 2 minutes we would
                    > > need a battery of more than 2.2kJ. This is not the more stringent
                    > > criterium. Assuming we use a 6V battery it would mean 18/6=3A. And that
                    > > is a big problem. As far as I know there is no small battery
                    > > (rechargeable or not) able to deliver such a current. A battery able to
                    > > supply a pop-pop engine would be too big and too heavy to be located on
                    > > board a pop-pop boat.
                    > > Sorry frank.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                    > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                    >
                    > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                    >
                    > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                    > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                    >
                  • Jean-Yves Renaud
                    Don t forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there will be at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat. ... Don t forget safety for kids.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 19, 2011
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                      Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there will be at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.

                      Le 19/06/2011 18:13, Frank McNeill a écrit :
                       

                      Thank you, Jean-Yves and Donald for the information you provided re: the possibility for developing battery-powered pop-pop boats. If this could be done in a practical, or profitable manner, we could probably buy them at Walmart or ToysRus. They would have been manufactured because that is where most of our battery-powered toys come from, including my wretched little iPad thing. It isn't a real computer, because it isn't good for doing anything, other than playing games or drawing, using a finger rather than a computer "mouse." I can use it for email though, so it is still a little better than nothing at all. I would prefer an iPhone if there was some kind of projector that I could use in a closet, or storm cellar.
                      Old Frank

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Small NiCd, NiMH, and even current generation Lithium Polymer cells can
                      > easily deliver 3A current -- in Lithium Polymer designations, you'd need
                      > a 150 milliamp-hour capacity cell with 20C discharge rating, or
                      > (cheaper) lower capacity multipliers for larger cells. Assuming 2
                      > minutes at 3A current, you'd need an actual capacity of only 100 mAh
                      > (and two cells to make 7.2 to 8 volts working voltage) to get your two
                      > minute run (you might have to step up to 150 mAh 20C cells, however; I
                      > haven't seen 30C ratings in cells that small), though you'd also need a
                      > suitable smart charger, to avoid damaging cells due to overcharge, and a
                      > safety circuit to avoid damaging the cells by excessive discharge
                      > (mustn't drop below 3.0V per cell).
                      >
                      > Now, a 150 mAh LiPo cell only weighs a few grams -- I see cells that
                      > size used in model airplanes with total weight under an ounce, including
                      > airframe, radio gear, motor and its gear drive. Add your electronics
                      > and you'd still likely come up with a suitable heater and power supply
                      > together that weigh about the same as a tea light candle.
                      >
                      > Check out Hobby King online for prices on small, high current cells, but
                      > I suspect they'd pay for themselves over the charge cycle life of the
                      > battery, compared to buying tea light candles -- and the fire risk is
                      > significantly lower.
                      >
                      > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The power of a birthday candle is approx 35W. Due to no thermal
                      > > insulation, let's say that the power transmitted to the pop-pop engine
                      > > is approx 18W. Assuming we want to run the engine for 2 minutes we would
                      > > need a battery of more than 2.2kJ. This is not the more stringent
                      > > criterium. Assuming we use a 6V battery it would mean 18/6=3A. And that
                      > > is a big problem. As far as I know there is no small battery
                      > > (rechargeable or not) able to deliver such a current. A battery able to
                      > > supply a pop-pop engine would be too big and too heavy to be located on
                      > > board a pop-pop boat.
                      > > Sorry frank.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                      > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                      >
                      > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                      >
                      > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                      > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                      >


                    • Donald Qualls
                      ... The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V 60Hz electricity
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 19, 2011
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                        Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there will be
                        > at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.
                        >

                        The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple
                        updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V
                        60Hz electricity to operate (actually, it would work just as well on DC,
                        but 120V DC isn't readily available) and producing temperatures in
                        excess of 300º F (~150º C). With a small pop-pop, it would be very
                        simple to shield the hot parts from incautious fingers (as was the case
                        with the Easy-Bake, now likely on its way out because the incandescent
                        light bulbs it uses as its heat source are going out of production).

                        There are and have been a number of children's toys that used capacitors
                        in the toy, charged from a hand held battery (2 D cells, often), to
                        operate a small electric motor for a minute or two. More recently,
                        these have started to use NiCd button cells, which cost less than
                        suitable capacitors (charge voltage is limited by the supply battery
                        voltage, and isn't high enough to damage the cells; a resistor in the
                        charging line limits current if the charge socket should be shorted or
                        in the case of a shorted cell in the on-board battery).

                        There are even a goodly number of borderline toys, flying whirly devices
                        of various sorts, that use onboard lithium batteries with the (single
                        chip) charge logic in either the flying toy itself or in its control
                        transmitter -- and these sell for under $50, a few for around $20.
                        These are considered safe enough for children to use "with adult
                        supervision" -- sticking a finger in the propellers will hurt, but won't
                        do injury beyond, at worst, a minor cut or bruise.

                        I don't see any reason a pop-pop toy running on lithium batteries with
                        similar electronics (including a tiny R/C steering unit) couldn't find
                        its way into Wal-Mart, but pop-pop boats in general haven't been as
                        popular over the last twenty or thirty years as model cars and
                        airplanes, and (being slow) they're a bit less exciting for today's
                        youngsters...

                        --
                        If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                        it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                        Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                        Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                        and don't expect them to be perfect.
                      • Frank McNeill
                        There were a lot of interesting toys then, chemistry sets with the ingredients for black gunpowder, kits with stuff for melting and casting lead; heating and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 20, 2011
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                          There were a lot of interesting toys then, chemistry sets with the ingredients for black gunpowder, kits with stuff for melting and casting lead; heating and vacuum forming sheets of plastic and water rockets with parachutes that would deploy, if they didn't go through somebody's upstairs window first- forgot to mention wood burning kits, didn't I?

                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there will be
                          > > at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.
                          > >
                          >
                          > The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple
                          > updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V
                          > 60Hz electricity to operate (actually, it would work just as well on DC,
                          > but 120V DC isn't readily available) and producing temperatures in
                          > excess of 300º F (~150º C). With a small pop-pop, it would be very
                          > simple to shield the hot parts from incautious fingers (as was the case
                          > with the Easy-Bake, now likely on its way out because the incandescent
                          > light bulbs it uses as its heat source are going out of production).
                          >
                          > There are and have been a number of children's toys that used capacitors
                          > in the toy, charged from a hand held battery (2 D cells, often), to
                          > operate a small electric motor for a minute or two. More recently,
                          > these have started to use NiCd button cells, which cost less than
                          > suitable capacitors (charge voltage is limited by the supply battery
                          > voltage, and isn't high enough to damage the cells; a resistor in the
                          > charging line limits current if the charge socket should be shorted or
                          > in the case of a shorted cell in the on-board battery).
                          >
                          > There are even a goodly number of borderline toys, flying whirly devices
                          > of various sorts, that use onboard lithium batteries with the (single
                          > chip) charge logic in either the flying toy itself or in its control
                          > transmitter -- and these sell for under $50, a few for around $20.
                          > These are considered safe enough for children to use "with adult
                          > supervision" -- sticking a finger in the propellers will hurt, but won't
                          > do injury beyond, at worst, a minor cut or bruise.
                          >
                          > I don't see any reason a pop-pop toy running on lithium batteries with
                          > similar electronics (including a tiny R/C steering unit) couldn't find
                          > its way into Wal-Mart, but pop-pop boats in general haven't been as
                          > popular over the last twenty or thirty years as model cars and
                          > airplanes, and (being slow) they're a bit less exciting for today's
                          > youngsters...
                          >
                          > --
                          > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                          > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                          >
                          > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                          >
                          > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                          > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                          >
                        • Jean-Yves Renaud
                          Heating a pop-pop engine with electricity is feasible. Remember Daryl s coffee machine transformed in pop-pop engine. Many of my stationary engines are as well
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 20, 2011
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                            Heating a pop-pop engine with electricity is feasible. Remember Daryl's coffee machine transformed in pop-pop engine. Many of my stationary engines are as well powered by electricity. But that is to determine the laws which govern pop-pop engines. Not to let kids play with.

                            Light batteries able to power a pop-pop boat exist. Thanks Donald, for the info. But would it be for kids? No. There will be hot temperature in the vaporizer. If the answer is thermal insulation, what about burn-out? In that case the temperature could rise up to 500°C or much more. If the answer is a temperature switch we are further and further from the main characteristic of a pop-pop boat.
                            I cannot follow you in the direction of complication. The pop-pop boat is the most simple motorized toy. That is its main characteristic. Why do you want to add electricity, remote control...

                            Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few examples.




                            Le 20/06/2011 19:05, Frank McNeill a écrit :
                             

                            There were a lot of interesting toys then, chemistry sets with the ingredients for black gunpowder, kits with stuff for melting and casting lead; heating and vacuum forming sheets of plastic and water rockets with parachutes that would deploy, if they didn't go through somebody's upstairs window first- forgot to mention wood burning kits, didn't I?

                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there will be
                            > > at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.
                            > >
                            >
                            > The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple
                            > updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V
                            > 60Hz electricity to operate (actually, it would work just as well on DC,
                            > but 120V DC isn't readily available) and producing temperatures in
                            > excess of 300º F (~150º C). With a small pop-pop, it would be very
                            > simple to shield the hot parts from incautious fingers (as was the case
                            > with the Easy-Bake, now likely on its way out because the incandescent
                            > light bulbs it uses as its heat source are going out of production).
                            >
                            > There are and have been a number of children's toys that used capacitors
                            > in the toy, charged from a hand held battery (2 D cells, often), to
                            > operate a small electric motor for a minute or two. More recently,
                            > these have started to use NiCd button cells, which cost less than
                            > suitable capacitors (charge voltage is limited by the supply battery
                            > voltage, and isn't high enough to damage the cells; a resistor in the
                            > charging line limits current if the charge socket should be shorted or
                            > in the case of a shorted cell in the on-board battery).
                            >
                            > There are even a goodly number of borderline toys, flying whirly devices
                            > of various sorts, that use onboard lithium batteries with the (single
                            > chip) charge logic in either the flying toy itself or in its control
                            > transmitter -- and these sell for under $50, a few for around $20.
                            > These are considered safe enough for children to use "with adult
                            > supervision" -- sticking a finger in the propellers will hurt, but won't
                            > do injury beyond, at worst, a minor cut or bruise.
                            >
                            > I don't see any reason a pop-pop toy running on lithium batteries with
                            > similar electronics (including a tiny R/C steering unit) couldn't find
                            > its way into Wal-Mart, but pop-pop boats in general haven't been as
                            > popular over the last twenty or thirty years as model cars and
                            > airplanes, and (being slow) they're a bit less exciting for today's
                            > youngsters...
                            >
                            > --
                            > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                            > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                            >
                            > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                            >
                            > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                            > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                            >


                          • Frank McNeill
                            Before long, pop-pop boats might be as mechanically simple as the iPad I am using for this reply. Pop-pops might have docks similar to those for display models
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 20, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Before long, pop-pop boats might be as mechanically simple as the iPad I am using for this reply. Pop-pops might have docks similar to those for display models and might be made of ceramic foam similar to the material sold by the Cotronics Corporation. There is a link because Cotronics produces ceramic stuff suitable for casting in open molding cavities. The pop-pops might have rechargeable batteries that charge when they are on their display docks and discharge when they are in water. iPhones and iPads can be used as remote controllers for "toys" designed and manufactured for this purpose, and might be the simplest and cheapest of this genre because they don't require wheels or propellers.
                              Old Frank

                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Yves Renaud <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Heating a pop-pop engine with electricity is feasible. Remember Daryl's
                              > coffee machine transformed in pop-pop engine. Many of my stationary
                              > engines are as well powered by electricity. But that is to determine the
                              > laws which govern pop-pop engines. Not to let kids play with.
                              >
                              > Light batteries able to power a pop-pop boat exist. Thanks Donald, for
                              > the info. But would it be for kids? No. There will be hot temperature in
                              > the vaporizer. If the answer is thermal insulation, what about burn-out?
                              > In that case the temperature could rise up to 500°C or much more. If the
                              > answer is a temperature switch we are further and further from the main
                              > characteristic of a pop-pop boat.
                              > I cannot follow you in the direction of complication. The pop-pop boat
                              > is the most simple motorized toy. That is its main characteristic. Why
                              > do you want to add electricity, remote control...
                              >
                              > Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery
                              > packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I
                              > recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and
                              > to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still
                              > working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few
                              > examples.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Le 20/06/2011 19:05, Frank McNeill a écrit :
                              > >
                              > > There were a lot of interesting toys then, chemistry sets with the
                              > > ingredients for black gunpowder, kits with stuff for melting and
                              > > casting lead; heating and vacuum forming sheets of plastic and water
                              > > rockets with parachutes that would deploy, if they didn't go through
                              > > somebody's upstairs window first- forgot to mention wood burning kits,
                              > > didn't I?
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, Donald Qualls
                              > > <silent1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there
                              > > will be
                              > > > > at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple
                              > > > updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V
                              > > > 60Hz electricity to operate (actually, it would work just as well on
                              > > DC,
                              > > > but 120V DC isn't readily available) and producing temperatures in
                              > > > excess of 300º F (~150º C). With a small pop-pop, it would be very
                              > > > simple to shield the hot parts from incautious fingers (as was the case
                              > > > with the Easy-Bake, now likely on its way out because the incandescent
                              > > > light bulbs it uses as its heat source are going out of production).
                              > > >
                              > > > There are and have been a number of children's toys that used
                              > > capacitors
                              > > > in the toy, charged from a hand held battery (2 D cells, often), to
                              > > > operate a small electric motor for a minute or two. More recently,
                              > > > these have started to use NiCd button cells, which cost less than
                              > > > suitable capacitors (charge voltage is limited by the supply battery
                              > > > voltage, and isn't high enough to damage the cells; a resistor in the
                              > > > charging line limits current if the charge socket should be shorted or
                              > > > in the case of a shorted cell in the on-board battery).
                              > > >
                              > > > There are even a goodly number of borderline toys, flying whirly
                              > > devices
                              > > > of various sorts, that use onboard lithium batteries with the (single
                              > > > chip) charge logic in either the flying toy itself or in its control
                              > > > transmitter -- and these sell for under $50, a few for around $20.
                              > > > These are considered safe enough for children to use "with adult
                              > > > supervision" -- sticking a finger in the propellers will hurt, but
                              > > won't
                              > > > do injury beyond, at worst, a minor cut or bruise.
                              > > >
                              > > > I don't see any reason a pop-pop toy running on lithium batteries with
                              > > > similar electronics (including a tiny R/C steering unit) couldn't find
                              > > > its way into Wal-Mart, but pop-pop boats in general haven't been as
                              > > > popular over the last twenty or thirty years as model cars and
                              > > > airplanes, and (being slow) they're a bit less exciting for today's
                              > > > youngsters...
                              > > >
                              > > > --
                              > > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                              > > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                              > > >
                              > > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                              > > >
                              > > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                              > > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Frank McNeill
                              Sorry about those typos. Letters are about the size of the fleas on my cat when the iPad is used on the recharge dock.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 20, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sorry about those "typos." Letters are about the size of the fleas on my cat when the iPad is used on the recharge dock.

                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Before long, pop-pop boats might be as mechanically simple as the iPad I am using for this reply. Pop-pops might have docks similar to those for display models and might be made of ceramic foam similar to the material sold by the Cotronics Corporation. There is a link because Cotronics produces ceramic stuff suitable for casting in open molding cavities. The pop-pops might have rechargeable batteries that charge when they are on their display docks and discharge when they are in water. iPhones and iPads can be used as remote controllers for "toys" designed and manufactured for this purpose, and might be the simplest and cheapest of this genre because they don't require wheels or propellers.
                                > Old Frank
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Yves Renaud <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Heating a pop-pop engine with electricity is feasible. Remember Daryl's
                                > > coffee machine transformed in pop-pop engine. Many of my stationary
                                > > engines are as well powered by electricity. But that is to determine the
                                > > laws which govern pop-pop engines. Not to let kids play with.
                                > >
                                > > Light batteries able to power a pop-pop boat exist. Thanks Donald, for
                                > > the info. But would it be for kids? No. There will be hot temperature in
                                > > the vaporizer. If the answer is thermal insulation, what about burn-out?
                                > > In that case the temperature could rise up to 500°C or much more. If the
                                > > answer is a temperature switch we are further and further from the main
                                > > characteristic of a pop-pop boat.
                                > > I cannot follow you in the direction of complication. The pop-pop boat
                                > > is the most simple motorized toy. That is its main characteristic. Why
                                > > do you want to add electricity, remote control...
                                > >
                                > > Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery
                                > > packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I
                                > > recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and
                                > > to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still
                                > > working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few
                                > > examples.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Le 20/06/2011 19:05, Frank McNeill a écrit :
                                > > >
                                > > > There were a lot of interesting toys then, chemistry sets with the
                                > > > ingredients for black gunpowder, kits with stuff for melting and
                                > > > casting lead; heating and vacuum forming sheets of plastic and water
                                > > > rockets with parachutes that would deploy, if they didn't go through
                                > > > somebody's upstairs window first- forgot to mention wood burning kits,
                                > > > didn't I?
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > <mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, Donald Qualls
                                > > > <silent1@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Don't forget safety for kids. Whatever the heating source there
                                > > > will be
                                > > > > > at least 100°C (212F) somewhere in the boat.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Easy-Bake Oven has been in continuous production (with a couple
                                > > > > updates in appearance) for almost fifty years, despite requiring 120V
                                > > > > 60Hz electricity to operate (actually, it would work just as well on
                                > > > DC,
                                > > > > but 120V DC isn't readily available) and producing temperatures in
                                > > > > excess of 300º F (~150º C). With a small pop-pop, it would be very
                                > > > > simple to shield the hot parts from incautious fingers (as was the case
                                > > > > with the Easy-Bake, now likely on its way out because the incandescent
                                > > > > light bulbs it uses as its heat source are going out of production).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > There are and have been a number of children's toys that used
                                > > > capacitors
                                > > > > in the toy, charged from a hand held battery (2 D cells, often), to
                                > > > > operate a small electric motor for a minute or two. More recently,
                                > > > > these have started to use NiCd button cells, which cost less than
                                > > > > suitable capacitors (charge voltage is limited by the supply battery
                                > > > > voltage, and isn't high enough to damage the cells; a resistor in the
                                > > > > charging line limits current if the charge socket should be shorted or
                                > > > > in the case of a shorted cell in the on-board battery).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > There are even a goodly number of borderline toys, flying whirly
                                > > > devices
                                > > > > of various sorts, that use onboard lithium batteries with the (single
                                > > > > chip) charge logic in either the flying toy itself or in its control
                                > > > > transmitter -- and these sell for under $50, a few for around $20.
                                > > > > These are considered safe enough for children to use "with adult
                                > > > > supervision" -- sticking a finger in the propellers will hurt, but
                                > > > won't
                                > > > > do injury beyond, at worst, a minor cut or bruise.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I don't see any reason a pop-pop toy running on lithium batteries with
                                > > > > similar electronics (including a tiny R/C steering unit) couldn't find
                                > > > > its way into Wal-Mart, but pop-pop boats in general haven't been as
                                > > > > popular over the last twenty or thirty years as model cars and
                                > > > > airplanes, and (being slow) they're a bit less exciting for today's
                                > > > > youngsters...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --
                                > > > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                > > > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                > > > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Donald Qualls
                                ... The lithium primary (non-rechargeable) cells used for CMOS backup in many computers have a useful life of about five years, same as a lithium watch
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 22, 2011
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                                  Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery
                                  > packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I
                                  > recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and
                                  > to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still
                                  > working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few
                                  > examples.
                                  >

                                  The lithium primary (non-rechargeable) cells used for CMOS backup in
                                  many computers have a useful life of about five years, same as a lithium
                                  watch battery. A lithium rechargeable (aka lithium-ion or lithium
                                  polymer) has a useful life of 2000 to 5000 charge cycles, apparently
                                  within up to around ten years, if it's prevented from discharging too
                                  deeply and isn't overcharged. I'm amazed your old lead-acid gel cells
                                  were still good; normally, they're history if they sit fully discharged
                                  for as little as a couple months (though they can last up to around ten
                                  years if kept on a maintenance charge, as with emergency lighting in
                                  warehouses and such). I've seen thirty year old nickel-cadmium cells
                                  accept a charge and run the device they were in, but their capacity is
                                  greatly reduced after such a long rest -- yet they handle that better
                                  than any other battery type I know.

                                  All the electronics for a lithium pop-pop boat could be integrated --
                                  yes, it's more complex, but in the same way that an Airhogs R/C airplane
                                  is more complex than the Sleek Streek model airplanes I used to fly when
                                  I was a kid. More complex, more expensive -- but more interesting to
                                  modern kids attuned to video games and action movies; plug the boat into
                                  the controller (to charge the on-board battery) until the light turns
                                  green, use the dropper (it's on a lanyard, so as not to get lost) to
                                  fill the motor, plop it in the pond or pool, and wait a minute or two to
                                  raise steam (that wait will be the hard part -- it might be avoidable,
                                  or at least greatly reduced, if you're willing to give up the loud
                                  "clack" of a diaphragm), and drive around the pond until the "low
                                  battery" warning comes on, giving time to motor back to the shore where
                                  you can reach the boat to pull it out of the water. Complex under the
                                  hood, but so very simple to use -- that's the way of modern toys, isn't
                                  it? The onboard electronics would handle temperature control as a
                                  trivial addition to the basics of managing the lithium battery and
                                  rudder, so there'd be no need to worry about overheating the heavily
                                  insulated motor. The thing ought to sell for between $30 and $50, if
                                  you can mass produce enough of them. That's the same range as the
                                  cheapest indoor R/C fliers...

                                  --
                                  If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                  it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                  Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                  Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                  and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                  Donald, I accept and share all your comments...but I don t wish to go in that direction. The pop-pop boats are so simple and so cheap (20 cents in India
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 22, 2011
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                                    Donald,
                                    I accept and share all your comments...but I don't wish to go in that direction. The pop-pop boats are so simple and so cheap (20 cents in India without bargaining). Why would you like to develop a electrically heated and remote controlled pop-pop boat. Due to the pop-pop principle the efficiency will be pathetic as on every pop-pop engine. It is easier to use electric propulsion by classic propeller or waterjet with a quite better efficiency; which means for the same battery a faster speed, better maneuvrability and a quite quite longer autonomy.

                                    Le 22/06/2011 22:53, Donald Qualls a écrit :
                                     

                                    Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery
                                    > packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I
                                    > recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and
                                    > to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still
                                    > working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few
                                    > examples.
                                    >

                                    The lithium primary (non-rechargeable) cells used for CMOS backup in
                                    many computers have a useful life of about five years, same as a lithium
                                    watch battery. A lithium rechargeable (aka lithium-ion or lithium
                                    polymer) has a useful life of 2000 to 5000 charge cycles, apparently
                                    within up to around ten years, if it's prevented from discharging too
                                    deeply and isn't overcharged. I'm amazed your old lead-acid gel cells
                                    were still good; normally, they're history if they sit fully discharged
                                    for as little as a couple months (though they can last up to around ten
                                    years if kept on a maintenance charge, as with emergency lighting in
                                    warehouses and such). I've seen thirty year old nickel-cadmium cells
                                    accept a charge and run the device they were in, but their capacity is
                                    greatly reduced after such a long rest -- yet they handle that better
                                    than any other battery type I know.

                                    All the electronics for a lithium pop-pop boat could be integrated --
                                    yes, it's more complex, but in the same way that an Airhogs R/C airplane
                                    is more complex than the Sleek Streek model airplanes I used to fly when
                                    I was a kid. More complex, more expensive -- but more interesting to
                                    modern kids attuned to video games and action movies; plug the boat into
                                    the controller (to charge the on-board battery) until the light turns
                                    green, use the dropper (it's on a lanyard, so as not to get lost) to
                                    fill the motor, plop it in the pond or pool, and wait a minute or two to
                                    raise steam (that wait will be the hard part -- it might be avoidable,
                                    or at least greatly reduced, if you're willing to give up the loud
                                    "clack" of a diaphragm), and drive around the pond until the "low
                                    battery" warning comes on, giving time to motor back to the shore where
                                    you can reach the boat to pull it out of the water. Complex under the
                                    hood, but so very simple to use -- that's the way of modern toys, isn't
                                    it? The onboard electronics would handle temperature control as a
                                    trivial addition to the basics of managing the lithium battery and
                                    rudder, so there'd be no need to worry about overheating the heavily
                                    insulated motor. The thing ought to sell for between $30 and $50, if
                                    you can mass produce enough of them. That's the same range as the
                                    cheapest indoor R/C fliers...

                                    --
                                    If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                    it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                    Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                    Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                    and don't expect them to be perfect.


                                  • Frank McNeill
                                    How about durability? Toy boats with no moving parts to replace or repair could regain the pop-popularity they had before WW2 when I was a kid with a few
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 23, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      How about durability? Toy boats with no moving parts to replace or repair could regain the pop-popularity they had before WW2 when I was a kid with a few updated features that would make it possible for kids to control them with their cell phones. My daughter is a teacher, so I asked her how many of her kids have cell phones. Her answer was that all of them do-

                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Yves Renaud <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Donald,
                                      > I accept and share all your comments...but I don't wish to go in that
                                      > direction. The pop-pop boats are so simple and so cheap (20 cents in
                                      > India without bargaining). Why would you like to develop a electrically
                                      > heated and remote controlled pop-pop boat. Due to the pop-pop principle
                                      > the efficiency will be pathetic as on every pop-pop engine. It is easier
                                      > to use electric propulsion by classic propeller or waterjet with a quite
                                      > better efficiency; which means for the same battery a faster speed,
                                      > better maneuvrability and a quite quite longer autonomy.
                                      >
                                      > Le 22/06/2011 22:53, Donald Qualls a écrit :
                                      > >
                                      > > Jean-Yves Renaud wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Note: After five years the battery of my PC is dead. As both battery
                                      > > > packs of my few year old screw driver are dead, the other day I
                                      > > > recharged the battery of my first screw driver (approx 30 years old) and
                                      > > > to my surprise it worked. Heavy and not powerful, but still
                                      > > > working...with lead battery. Just for info. I cannot judge on so few
                                      > > > examples.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > The lithium primary (non-rechargeable) cells used for CMOS backup in
                                      > > many computers have a useful life of about five years, same as a lithium
                                      > > watch battery. A lithium rechargeable (aka lithium-ion or lithium
                                      > > polymer) has a useful life of 2000 to 5000 charge cycles, apparently
                                      > > within up to around ten years, if it's prevented from discharging too
                                      > > deeply and isn't overcharged. I'm amazed your old lead-acid gel cells
                                      > > were still good; normally, they're history if they sit fully discharged
                                      > > for as little as a couple months (though they can last up to around ten
                                      > > years if kept on a maintenance charge, as with emergency lighting in
                                      > > warehouses and such). I've seen thirty year old nickel-cadmium cells
                                      > > accept a charge and run the device they were in, but their capacity is
                                      > > greatly reduced after such a long rest -- yet they handle that better
                                      > > than any other battery type I know.
                                      > >
                                      > > All the electronics for a lithium pop-pop boat could be integrated --
                                      > > yes, it's more complex, but in the same way that an Airhogs R/C airplane
                                      > > is more complex than the Sleek Streek model airplanes I used to fly when
                                      > > I was a kid. More complex, more expensive -- but more interesting to
                                      > > modern kids attuned to video games and action movies; plug the boat into
                                      > > the controller (to charge the on-board battery) until the light turns
                                      > > green, use the dropper (it's on a lanyard, so as not to get lost) to
                                      > > fill the motor, plop it in the pond or pool, and wait a minute or two to
                                      > > raise steam (that wait will be the hard part -- it might be avoidable,
                                      > > or at least greatly reduced, if you're willing to give up the loud
                                      > > "clack" of a diaphragm), and drive around the pond until the "low
                                      > > battery" warning comes on, giving time to motor back to the shore where
                                      > > you can reach the boat to pull it out of the water. Complex under the
                                      > > hood, but so very simple to use -- that's the way of modern toys, isn't
                                      > > it? The onboard electronics would handle temperature control as a
                                      > > trivial addition to the basics of managing the lithium battery and
                                      > > rudder, so there'd be no need to worry about overheating the heavily
                                      > > insulated motor. The thing ought to sell for between $30 and $50, if
                                      > > you can mass produce enough of them. That's the same range as the
                                      > > cheapest indoor R/C fliers...
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                      > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                      > >
                                      > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                      > >
                                      > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                      > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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