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Re: Easy putt putt engine build.

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  • Daryl
    Thanks David, Norm and Zoomcat. MAP gas will provide enough heat to silver braze but the problem remains that this amount of heat will destroy the diaphragm
    Message 1 of 14 , May 28, 2011
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      Thanks David, Norm and Zoomcat.

      MAP gas will provide enough heat to silver braze but the problem remains that this amount of heat will destroy the diaphragm material or other thin metals either by distortion or melting. I could not get enough heat from MAP alone to braze with brass rod but I'm told MAP/oxy will.

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
      >
      > Interesting engines. The challange for the casual builder is making the high temperature joints that won't fail when the boiler heats up. I've tried soldering can tops and pie pans together for flat boilers, but the solder eventually gets soft and fails. I got out my mapp gas torch and mapp/oxy torch (like below) from many years ago and started testing with brass brazing rods. The mapp gas torch can heat up a piece of yard edging metal to orange heat at which point the brazing rod will liquify and flow as a liquid (~1600 deg F). When I get time I'm going to try to braze the lids and pans to see if the mapp brazing is an ~inexpensive alternative to the more costly gas rigs.
      >
      > http://www.tractorsupply.com/welding-metalworking/welding-accessories-parts/welding-magnets/quickfire-cutting-and-welding-torch-kit-3840158
      >
      > http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Bernzomatic+mapp&hl=en&num=100&lr=&cr=&safe=images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=562061308235340798&sa=X&ei=nh_fTahPyaO2B9qowPsJ&ved=0CFAQ8wIwBQ#
      >
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daryl" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
      > >
      > > This really is easy to build and performs well. Any comments appreciated.
      > >
      > > <iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NNkZACnaDSQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
      > >
      >
    • zoomkat
      ... My mapp gas torch can melt the standard copper-phosphorus rods, but the heated area is very large and isn t suited well for small work. I have one of the
      Message 2 of 14 , May 30, 2011
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        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daryl" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks David, Norm and Zoomcat.
        >
        > MAP gas will provide enough heat to silver braze but the problem remains that this amount of heat will destroy the diaphragm material or other thin metals either by distortion or melting. I could not get enough heat from MAP alone to braze with brass rod but I'm told MAP/oxy will.

        My mapp gas torch can melt the standard copper-phosphorus rods, but the heated area is very large and isn't suited well for small work. I have one of the silver-nickel rods like below that came with my small oxy-mapp torch which I will experiment with. I hope it has the lower melt temps like the silver brazing rods.

        http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/NS3-2PK-NI-SVL-Brazing-Rod-p/719234.htm?click=1014

        http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_9015574-P_x_x?cm_mmc=CSE-_-Google-_-VALUE3-_-VALUE4&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=9015574
      • Frank McNeill
        Hi All, Daryl and yours truly, sometimes, have discussed a while back the possibility for using a process called electro-forming to produce one-piece boilers
        Message 3 of 14 , May 31, 2011
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          Hi All,

          Daryl and yours truly, sometimes, have discussed a while back the possibility for using a process called "electro-forming" to produce one-piece boilers and propulsion tubes. We have a link to a company that specializes in this. Most members probably don't know there is a links section, so I thought this might be a good time to mention it.
          Go to http://www.nicoform.com/?gclid=COKCyZzXgJ0CFQMQswodNw09cA for more about electro-forming than the US Mint probably thinks most folks should know.

          ttfn: Old Frank

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daryl" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks David, Norm and Zoomcat.
          > >
          > > MAP gas will provide enough heat to silver braze but the problem remains that this amount of heat will destroy the diaphragm material or other thin metals either by distortion or melting. I could not get enough heat from MAP alone to braze with brass rod but I'm told MAP/oxy will.
          >
          > My mapp gas torch can melt the standard copper-phosphorus rods, but the heated area is very large and isn't suited well for small work. I have one of the silver-nickel rods like below that came with my small oxy-mapp torch which I will experiment with. I hope it has the lower melt temps like the silver brazing rods.
          >
          > http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/NS3-2PK-NI-SVL-Brazing-Rod-p/719234.htm?click=1014
          >
          > http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_9015574-P_x_x?cm_mmc=CSE-_-Google-_-VALUE3-_-VALUE4&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=9015574
          >
        • Daryl
          That would be a great way to go. I wonder what the cost would be?
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 1, 2011
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            That would be a great way to go. I wonder what the cost would be?

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            >
            > Daryl and yours truly, sometimes, have discussed a while back the possibility for using a process called "electro-forming" to produce one-piece boilers and propulsion tubes. We have a link to a company that specializes in this. Most members probably don't know there is a links section, so I thought this might be a good time to mention it.
            > Go to http://www.nicoform.com/?gclid=COKCyZzXgJ0CFQMQswodNw09cA for more about electro-forming than the US Mint probably thinks most folks should know.
            >
            > ttfn: Old Frank
          • Frank McNeill
            My guess is that it would be pretty expensive. Maybe Pete could come up with a one size fits all CAD design that could be shopped out to several companies in
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2, 2011
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              My guess is that it would be pretty expensive. Maybe Pete could come up with a "one size fits all" CAD design that could be shopped out to several companies in the electro-forming business. As an option some members might be interested in a link titled "Brazing Versus Soldering" that I added to the links section.

              Old Frank

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daryl" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
              >
              > That would be a great way to go. I wonder what the cost would be?
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi All,
              > >
              > > Daryl and yours truly, sometimes, have discussed a while back the possibility for using a process called "electro-forming" to produce one-piece boilers and propulsion tubes. We have a link to a company that specializes in this. Most members probably don't know there is a links section, so I thought this might be a good time to mention it.
              > > Go to http://www.nicoform.com/?gclid=COKCyZzXgJ0CFQMQswodNw09cA for more about electro-forming than the US Mint probably thinks most folks should know.
              > >
              > > ttfn: Old Frank
              >
            • Frank McNeill
              OOPS! Should have been Brazing and Soldering.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 2, 2011
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                OOPS! Should have been "Brazing and Soldering."

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                >
                > My guess is that it would be pretty expensive. Maybe Pete could come up with a "one size fits all" CAD design that could be shopped out to several companies in the electro-forming business. As an option some members might be interested in a link titled "Brazing Versus Soldering" that I added to the links section.
                >
                > Old Frank
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Daryl" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                > >
                > > That would be a great way to go. I wonder what the cost would be?
                > >
                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi All,
                > > >
                > > > Daryl and yours truly, sometimes, have discussed a while back the possibility for using a process called "electro-forming" to produce one-piece boilers and propulsion tubes. We have a link to a company that specializes in this. Most members probably don't know there is a links section, so I thought this might be a good time to mention it.
                > > > Go to http://www.nicoform.com/?gclid=COKCyZzXgJ0CFQMQswodNw09cA for more about electro-forming than the US Mint probably thinks most folks should know.
                > > >
                > > > ttfn: Old Frank
                > >
                >
              • David Halfpenny (y)
                ... From: Frank McNeill Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:12 PM To: Subject:
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 2, 2011
                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...>
                Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:12 PM
                To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Easy putt putt engine build.

                > My guess is that it would be pretty expensive.

                Electroforming is an attractive process for making very light an accurate
                hollow forms, and I'd like to have a go at it myself where accuracy is the
                objective.

                For pop-pops we can benefit from Light but we don't need Accurate.

                So what would Electroforming offer that ordinary Stamping, Pressing or
                Spinning would not?

                I attach a picture showing a copper dish being spun on a simple lathe using
                wooden formers. Adding a flange around it would simply need a slightly
                different former.

                David 1/2d
              • Frank McNeill
                Hi David, I m interested in electroforming as a method for manufacturing very small remotely controllable toy boats. Most kids have small cellular phones now
                Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3, 2011
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                  Hi David,

                  I'm interested in electroforming as a method for manufacturing very small remotely controllable toy boats. Most kids have small cellular phones now that can be used to control toy planes, helicopters and cars, so why not tiny steam boats propelled by the simplest of all steam engines?

                  Best wishes, Frank

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)" <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  > From: "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...>
                  > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:12 PM
                  > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Easy putt putt engine build.
                  >
                  > > My guess is that it would be pretty expensive.
                  >
                  > Electroforming is an attractive process for making very light an accurate
                  > hollow forms, and I'd like to have a go at it myself where accuracy is the
                  > objective.
                  >
                  > For pop-pops we can benefit from Light but we don't need Accurate.
                  >
                  > So what would Electroforming offer that ordinary Stamping, Pressing or
                  > Spinning would not?
                  >
                  > I attach a picture showing a copper dish being spun on a simple lathe using
                  > wooden formers. Adding a flange around it would simply need a slightly
                  > different former.
                  >
                  > David 1/2d
                  >
                • ivan foster
                  What about hydro-forming? My immediate thought would be to router out a two sided wood form the size of the tube with an expanded part in the middle, when you
                  Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3, 2011
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                    What about hydro-forming? My immediate thought would be to router out a two sided wood form the size of the tube with an expanded part in the middle, when you are through you could bend the pipes and you should have a simple engine, no sound of course.

                    On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi David,

                    I'm interested in electroforming as a method for manufacturing very small remotely controllable toy boats. Most kids have small cellular phones now that can be used to control toy planes, helicopters and cars, so why not tiny steam boats propelled by the simplest of all steam engines?

                    Best wishes, Frank

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)" <david.halfpenny@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------
                    > From: "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@...>
                    > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:12 PM
                    > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Easy putt putt engine build.


                    >
                    > > My guess is that it would be pretty expensive.
                    >
                    > Electroforming is an attractive process for making very light an accurate
                    > hollow forms, and I'd like to have a go at it myself where accuracy is the
                    > objective.
                    >
                    > For pop-pops we can benefit from Light but we don't need Accurate.
                    >
                    > So what would Electroforming offer that ordinary Stamping, Pressing or
                    > Spinning would not?
                    >
                    > I attach a picture showing a copper dish being spun on a simple lathe using
                    > wooden formers. Adding a flange around it would simply need a slightly
                    > different former.
                    >
                    > David 1/2d
                    >




                    --
                    Foster
                    Tru Cut Landscapes
                    830 708-3160
                    trucutlandscapes.com
                    fosterairborne@...

                  • Frank McNeill
                    No sound - - other than other than that of a muffled explosion and some screaming, and or profanity! !
                    Message 10 of 14 , Jun 4, 2011
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                      No sound - - other than other than that of a muffled explosion and some screaming, and or profanity! !

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, ivan foster <fosterairborne@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What about hydro-forming? My immediate thought would be to router out a two
                      > sided wood form the size of the tube with an expanded part in the middle,
                      > when you are through you could bend the pipes and you should have a simple
                      > engine, no sound of course.
                      >
                      > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi David,
                      > >
                      > > I'm interested in electroforming as a method for manufacturing very small
                      > > remotely controllable toy boats. Most kids have small cellular phones now
                      > > that can be used to control toy planes, helicopters and cars, so why not
                      > > tiny steam boats propelled by the simplest of all steam engines?
                      > >
                      > > Best wishes, Frank
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny \(y\)"
                      > > <david.halfpenny@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --------------------------------------------------
                      > > > From: "Frank McNeill" <frankmcneilll@>
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:12 PM
                      > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Easy putt putt engine build.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > My guess is that it would be pretty expensive.
                      > > >
                      > > > Electroforming is an attractive process for making very light an accurate
                      > >
                      > > > hollow forms, and I'd like to have a go at it myself where accuracy is
                      > > the
                      > > > objective.
                      > > >
                      > > > For pop-pops we can benefit from Light but we don't need Accurate.
                      > > >
                      > > > So what would Electroforming offer that ordinary Stamping, Pressing or
                      > > > Spinning would not?
                      > > >
                      > > > I attach a picture showing a copper dish being spun on a simple lathe
                      > > using
                      > > > wooden formers. Adding a flange around it would simply need a slightly
                      > > > different former.
                      > > >
                      > > > David 1/2d
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Foster
                      > Tru Cut Landscapes
                      > 830 708-3160
                      > trucutlandscapes.com
                      > fosterairborne@...
                      >
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