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Re: Inside Indian engine?

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  • Tim
    Hi Arno. I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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      Hi Arno.

      I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good reason. Firstly I wish to make a motor I am happy with, that has all of the attributes I am looking for in my current master plan. So far it is alluding me, but perseverance is beginning to pay off. Secondly I know little/nothing about boat design and need to address this. I enjoyed a visit to the National maritime museum, and the powerboat museum near where I live to observe and learn. It was a very usefull exercise. I discovered a hull design that evolved locally to me on the Thames river in the 1930's. The "Thames slipper launch" They are very elegant vessels but the hull design is very interesting. The area of the Thames they originate from, has delicate river banks, so the hull is designed to have minimal wake and therefore low drag. The boats make good speed with little power. They were originally powered by small petrol or diesel motors but modern examples, still made to this day are often fitted with electric power. This would suggest they are an efficient design, and perhaps worthy of further investigation. I have done further investigation and I have had some valuable help from enthusiasts of the slipper launches, so my plan is that when I have the motor how I want it, to make a slipper type hull. By some serendipity a couple of my glueless motors will suit nicely, for the shape of the stern slopes down gently and elegantly to the waterline. I think that from the pipe configuration of many of the motors people have posted pictures of in the group, where the pipes come over the top and slope downwards, this little known hull design may be worth others consideration to. The boats also have very pleasing lines. In particular, some of Daryl's and Jean-Yves' motors spring to mind that would seem to be very well suited. Please check out the slipper launch design. There are several good sites if you google. I think it will be of interest to some.

      By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.

      Very best regards.

      Tim

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "arno_brosi" <arnobrosi@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have to agree with that,and I'm following this thread with great interest.
      > But while we're testing the wheels,don't forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
      > Keep up the good work,
      >
      > regards,Arno
      >
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Pete and all.
      > >
      > > From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.
      > >
      > > Best regards.
      > >
      > > Tim
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Pete,
      > > >
      > > > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
      > > >
      > > > Frank
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi All,
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
      > > > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
      > > > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
      > > > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
      > > > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
      > > > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
      > > > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
      > > > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
      > > > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
      > > > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
      > > > > inquisitive otherwise.
      > > > >
      > > > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
      > > > > enthusiasts.
      > > > >
      > > > > Pete
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • zoomkat
      ... Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I d suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Arno.
        >
        > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
        >
        > Very best regards.
        >
        > Tim

        Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
      • Tim
        Hi Zoomkat. Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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          Hi Zoomkat.

          Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!

          Many thanks and best regards.

          Tim


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Arno.
          > >
          > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
          > >
          > > Very best regards.
          > >
          > > Tim
          >
          > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
          >
        • zoomkat
          The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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            The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Zoomkat.
            >
            > Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!
            >
            > Many thanks and best regards.
            >
            > Tim
            >
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Arno.
            > > >
            > > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
            > > >
            > > > Very best regards.
            > > >
            > > > Tim
            > >
            > > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
            > >
            >
          • David Halfpenny
            ... From: zoomkat Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM To: Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re:
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
              Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM
              To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?

              > The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is
              > boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram
              > is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.
              >
              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

              Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.

              Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
              also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
              volume may well be a critical part of the design.

              I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
              but I'm not expecting a simple answer.

              David 1/2d
            • zoomkat
              ... What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I ve started another
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                > >
                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c
                >
                > Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.
                >
                > Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
                > also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
                > volume may well be a critical part of the design.
                >
                > I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
                > but I'm not expecting a simple answer.
                >
                > David 1/2d

                What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I've started another discussion on the pop pop condensation cycle. The engine in the video is very similar to an idea I have for a stand off condensing unit for a larger engine.
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