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Re: Inside Indian engine?

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  • Tim
    Hi Jean-Yves. Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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      Hi Jean-Yves.

      Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.

      Many thanks and best regards.

      Tim

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Tim,
      > The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few millimiters down it is less, and soon very far from 100°C when looking downward. Where there is always water in the pipe, the pipe is cold. Where there is always steam, the pipe is at 100°C or more. In between the temperature is continiously variable between cold and 100°C. This part of the pipe can only condense steam. And the vaporization can only take place where the pipe is hotter than 100°C.
      >
      > A small engine needs a rather big boiler to be performing for a reasonable time. For big engines (I woud say ID>15mm) there is no need of drum or coil or equivalent. I have not taken the time needed to examine the relation between boiler volume and pipe diameter, but for sure it is more complicated than a simple constant ratio.
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi all.
      > >
      > > It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.
      > >
      > > Jean-Yves.
      > >
      > > In your last message you suggested.
      > > "It seems also obvious that the volume
      > > of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."
      > >
      > > Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?
      > >
      > > Thanks for your continued support and information.
      > >
      > > Best regards.
      > >
      > > Tim
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      > > >
      > > > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
      > > > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
      > > >
      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
      > > > >
      > > > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
      > > > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
      > > > > mass and air viscosity.
      > > > >
      > > > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
      > > > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
      > > > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
      > > > >
      > > > > David
      > > > >
      > > > > --------------------------------------------------
      > > > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
      > > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
      > > > >
      > > > > > Hi All.
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > I am a proud member of this group.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Tim
      Hi Zoomkat. I can confirm these observations, as last night and tonight I have tried my engine number 3 diaphragm engine with the pipes flush to the boiler
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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        Hi Zoomkat.

        I can confirm these observations, as last night and tonight I have tried my engine number 3 diaphragm engine with the pipes flush to the boiler surface, half way protruding into the boiler and almost touching the diaphragm. It is similar in design and size to the larger Indian motors. The only significant difference being pipe diameter. I have just completed the tests and only the latter seemed to have any noticeable effect. I think the problem with your latest motor must be some other aspect. Perhaps try more heat.

        Best of luck.

        Tim

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jean-Yves.
        >
        > Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.
        >
        > Many thanks and best regards.
        >
        > Tim
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Tim,
        > > The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few millimiters down it is less, and soon very far from 100°C when looking downward. Where there is always water in the pipe, the pipe is cold. Where there is always steam, the pipe is at 100°C or more. In between the temperature is continiously variable between cold and 100°C. This part of the pipe can only condense steam. And the vaporization can only take place where the pipe is hotter than 100°C.
        > >
        > > A small engine needs a rather big boiler to be performing for a reasonable time. For big engines (I woud say ID>15mm) there is no need of drum or coil or equivalent. I have not taken the time needed to examine the relation between boiler volume and pipe diameter, but for sure it is more complicated than a simple constant ratio.
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi all.
        > > >
        > > > It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.
        > > >
        > > > Jean-Yves.
        > > >
        > > > In your last message you suggested.
        > > > "It seems also obvious that the volume
        > > > of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."
        > > >
        > > > Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for your continued support and information.
        > > >
        > > > Best regards.
        > > >
        > > > Tim
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        > > > >
        > > > > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
        > > > > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
        > > > > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
        > > > > > mass and air viscosity.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
        > > > > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
        > > > > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > David
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
        > > > > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
        > > > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi All.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > I am a proud member of this group.
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Pete
        ... at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Jean-Yves.
          >
          > Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.
          >
          > Many thanks and best regards.
          >
          > Tim

          Hi All,

          I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the inquisitive otherwise.

          I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop enthusiasts.

          Pete

        • frankmcneilll
          Hi Pete, On behalf of Old Old Frank, he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn t any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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            Hi Pete,

            On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.

            Frank


            >
            > Hi All,
            >
            > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
            > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
            > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
            > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
            > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
            > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
            > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
            > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
            > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
            > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
            > inquisitive otherwise.
            >
            > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
            > enthusiasts.
            >
            > Pete
            >
          • Tim
            Hi Pete and all. From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl s masterly execution, design and construction
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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              Hi Pete and all.

              From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.

              Best regards.

              Tim


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Pete,
              >
              > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
              >
              > Frank
              >
              >
              > >
              > > Hi All,
              > >
              > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
              > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
              > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
              > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
              > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
              > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
              > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
              > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
              > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
              > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
              > > inquisitive otherwise.
              > >
              > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
              > > enthusiasts.
              > >
              > > Pete
              > >
              >
            • arno_brosi
              I have to agree with that,and I m following this thread with great interest. But while we re testing the wheels,don t forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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                I have to agree with that,and I'm following this thread with great interest.
                But while we're testing the wheels,don't forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
                Keep up the good work,

                regards,Arno


                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Pete and all.
                >
                > From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.
                >
                > Best regards.
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Pete,
                > >
                > > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
                > >
                > > Frank
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi All,
                > > >
                > > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                > > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                > > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                > > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                > > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                > > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                > > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                > > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                > > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                > > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                > > > inquisitive otherwise.
                > > >
                > > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                > > > enthusiasts.
                > > >
                > > > Pete
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Tim
                Hi Arno. I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                  Hi Arno.

                  I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good reason. Firstly I wish to make a motor I am happy with, that has all of the attributes I am looking for in my current master plan. So far it is alluding me, but perseverance is beginning to pay off. Secondly I know little/nothing about boat design and need to address this. I enjoyed a visit to the National maritime museum, and the powerboat museum near where I live to observe and learn. It was a very usefull exercise. I discovered a hull design that evolved locally to me on the Thames river in the 1930's. The "Thames slipper launch" They are very elegant vessels but the hull design is very interesting. The area of the Thames they originate from, has delicate river banks, so the hull is designed to have minimal wake and therefore low drag. The boats make good speed with little power. They were originally powered by small petrol or diesel motors but modern examples, still made to this day are often fitted with electric power. This would suggest they are an efficient design, and perhaps worthy of further investigation. I have done further investigation and I have had some valuable help from enthusiasts of the slipper launches, so my plan is that when I have the motor how I want it, to make a slipper type hull. By some serendipity a couple of my glueless motors will suit nicely, for the shape of the stern slopes down gently and elegantly to the waterline. I think that from the pipe configuration of many of the motors people have posted pictures of in the group, where the pipes come over the top and slope downwards, this little known hull design may be worth others consideration to. The boats also have very pleasing lines. In particular, some of Daryl's and Jean-Yves' motors spring to mind that would seem to be very well suited. Please check out the slipper launch design. There are several good sites if you google. I think it will be of interest to some.

                  By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.

                  Very best regards.

                  Tim

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "arno_brosi" <arnobrosi@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have to agree with that,and I'm following this thread with great interest.
                  > But while we're testing the wheels,don't forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
                  > Keep up the good work,
                  >
                  > regards,Arno
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Pete and all.
                  > >
                  > > From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.
                  > >
                  > > Best regards.
                  > >
                  > > Tim
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Pete,
                  > > >
                  > > > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
                  > > >
                  > > > Frank
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi All,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                  > > > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                  > > > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                  > > > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                  > > > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                  > > > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                  > > > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                  > > > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                  > > > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                  > > > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                  > > > > inquisitive otherwise.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                  > > > > enthusiasts.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Pete
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • zoomkat
                  ... Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I d suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Arno.
                    >
                    > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                    >
                    > Very best regards.
                    >
                    > Tim

                    Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                  • Tim
                    Hi Zoomkat. Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                      Hi Zoomkat.

                      Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!

                      Many thanks and best regards.

                      Tim


                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Arno.
                      > >
                      > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                      > >
                      > > Very best regards.
                      > >
                      > > Tim
                      >
                      > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                      >
                    • zoomkat
                      The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                        The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Zoomkat.
                        >
                        > Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!
                        >
                        > Many thanks and best regards.
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Arno.
                        > > >
                        > > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                        > > >
                        > > > Very best regards.
                        > > >
                        > > > Tim
                        > >
                        > > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                        > >
                        >
                      • David Halfpenny
                        ... From: zoomkat Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM To: Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re:
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --------------------------------------------------
                          From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
                          Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM
                          To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?

                          > The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is
                          > boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram
                          > is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.
                          >
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

                          Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.

                          Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
                          also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
                          volume may well be a critical part of the design.

                          I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
                          but I'm not expecting a simple answer.

                          David 1/2d
                        • zoomkat
                          ... What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I ve started another
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > >
                            > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c
                            >
                            > Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.
                            >
                            > Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
                            > also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
                            > volume may well be a critical part of the design.
                            >
                            > I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
                            > but I'm not expecting a simple answer.
                            >
                            > David 1/2d

                            What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I've started another discussion on the pop pop condensation cycle. The engine in the video is very similar to an idea I have for a stand off condensing unit for a larger engine.
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