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Re: Inside Indian engine?

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  • Tim
    Hi Zoomkat. A few weeks ago I desoldered the pipes of one of my small Indian engines, in my investigation into making the steel pipes. The end of the pipes
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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      Hi Zoomkat.

      A few weeks ago I desoldered the pipes of one of my small Indian engines, in my investigation into making the steel pipes. The end of the pipes seem to be cut to 45 degrees giving an elliptical profile at the end, and the hole in the boiler is almost round. This would indicate that the tube is soldered to the bottom surface of the boiler and does not intrude into the boiler at all. The boiler is about 2mm deep minus the thickness of material. I believe that unlike the ones I had in Bangladesh in the eighties which were hand made, that these more recent ones are machine made and possibly assembled by hand. I think they use a fly press or similar, to press out and cut the boiler. A specially made rolling machine to make accurate, small diameter tubes, and I suspect they are soldered on to the boiler in a jig as the 3 I have are all the same. I have measured them and they are to close in tolerance to be made solely by hand in my opinion. I also believe the pipes to be welded as when heated, no solder flows out of the join and I can not see any evidence of solder at the join, the entire length of the pipe.

      Replicating the boiler is simple with a dies and punches. I milled out a die and ground a punch and have been able to form the boiler. From my experiments I believe 2 dies are used in making the boiler, going from the witness marks. The boat hulls are probably made the same way. I have given the pipes much examination and thought, and have looked for rolling machines to give this diameter and have still to understand how they are made. I have no doubt they are largely made by machine.

      All the best.

      Tim

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
      >
      > Just wondering if anybody has looked at the exhaust pipe arrangement inside an Indian made pop pop engine. Specifically are the pipes flush with the bottom of the boiler or do they stick up from the boiler any significant amount?
      >
    • Donald Qualls
      ... I suspect the tubes on these boats are made similarly to the way steel plumbing pipe is turned from plate to pipe: a flat is rolled to first form a U
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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        Tim wrote:
        >
        > I have given the pipes much examination and thought, and
        > have looked for rolling machines to give this diameter and have still
        > to understand how they are made. I have no doubt they are largely
        > made by machine.
        >

        I suspect the tubes on these boats are made similarly to the way steel
        plumbing pipe is turned from plate to pipe: a flat is rolled to first
        form a U shape, then close the legs of the U, before being seam welded
        (a resistance weld, probably using flux to clean the metal and protect
        from oxidation) or hard soldered to close the seam. Finally, the
        finished tube is drawn over a mandrel to give a consistent shape and
        diameter. Starting from thin, annealed brass strips, the rolling could
        probably be done on two or three passes (likely, given the tech level of
        the rest of the process, side by side forms in a single pair of rolls in
        a hand cranked machine) plus welding up the seam and drawing.

        This is similar to the way K&S tubing is made, except the hobby shop
        stuff is made by automatic machinery (if you look closely at the inside
        of some of the tubes, you can see the seam, but the drawing operation
        irons it out on the outside).

        --
        If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
        it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

        Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

        Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
        and don't expect them to be perfect.
      • zoomkat
        I made my most recent engine (outboard#2) from the ends of 6 oz. juice cans. When I soldered the pipes to the bottom some of the pipe extends into the boiler
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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          I made my most recent engine (outboard#2) from the ends of 6 oz. juice cans. When I soldered the pipes to the bottom some of the pipe extends into the boiler chamber. This appears to allow a significant amount of water to be trapped in the boiler, hurting operation. I'll probably need to try to open the boiler and cut the ends of the inside pipes off flush with the bottom of the boiler so that the water doesn't get trapped and is blown out with each pulse.

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Zoomkat.
          >
          > A few weeks ago I desoldered the pipes of one of my small Indian engines, in my investigation into making the steel pipes. The end of the pipes seem to be cut to 45 degrees giving an elliptical profile at the end, and the hole in the boiler is almost round. This would indicate that the tube is soldered to the bottom surface of the boiler and does not intrude into the boiler at all. The boiler is about 2mm deep minus the thickness of material. I believe that unlike the ones I had in Bangladesh in the eighties which were hand made, that these more recent ones are machine made and possibly assembled by hand. I think they use a fly press or similar, to press out and cut the boiler. A specially made rolling machine to make accurate, small diameter tubes, and I suspect they are soldered on to the boiler in a jig as the 3 I have are all the same. I have measured them and they are to close in tolerance to be made solely by hand in my opinion. I also believe the pipes to be welded as when heated, no solder flows out of the join and I can not see any evidence of solder at the join, the entire length of the pipe.
          >
          > Replicating the boiler is simple with a dies and punches. I milled out a die and ground a punch and have been able to form the boiler. From my experiments I believe 2 dies are used in making the boiler, going from the witness marks. The boat hulls are probably made the same way. I have given the pipes much examination and thought, and have looked for rolling machines to give this diameter and have still to understand how they are made. I have no doubt they are largely made by machine.
          >
          > All the best.
          >
          > Tim
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Just wondering if anybody has looked at the exhaust pipe arrangement inside an Indian made pop pop engine. Specifically are the pipes flush with the bottom of the boiler or do they stick up from the boiler any significant amount?
          > >
          >
        • Tim
          Zoomkat. I wish you every success. Please let us know how you get on. Tim
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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            Zoomkat.

            I wish you every success. Please let us know how you get on.

            Tim

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
            >
            > I made my most recent engine (outboard#2) from the ends of 6 oz. juice cans. When I soldered the pipes to the bottom some of the pipe extends into the boiler chamber. This appears to allow a significant amount of water to be trapped in the boiler, hurting operation. I'll probably need to try to open the boiler and cut the ends of the inside pipes off flush with the bottom of the boiler so that the water doesn't get trapped and is blown out with each pulse.
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Zoomkat.
            > >
            > > A few weeks ago I desoldered the pipes of one of my small Indian engines, in my investigation into making the steel pipes. The end of the pipes seem to be cut to 45 degrees giving an elliptical profile at the end, and the hole in the boiler is almost round. This would indicate that the tube is soldered to the bottom surface of the boiler and does not intrude into the boiler at all. The boiler is about 2mm deep minus the thickness of material. I believe that unlike the ones I had in Bangladesh in the eighties which were hand made, that these more recent ones are machine made and possibly assembled by hand. I think they use a fly press or similar, to press out and cut the boiler. A specially made rolling machine to make accurate, small diameter tubes, and I suspect they are soldered on to the boiler in a jig as the 3 I have are all the same. I have measured them and they are to close in tolerance to be made solely by hand in my opinion. I also believe the pipes to be welded as when heated, no solder flows out of the join and I can not see any evidence of solder at the join, the entire length of the pipe.
            > >
            > > Replicating the boiler is simple with a dies and punches. I milled out a die and ground a punch and have been able to form the boiler. From my experiments I believe 2 dies are used in making the boiler, going from the witness marks. The boat hulls are probably made the same way. I have given the pipes much examination and thought, and have looked for rolling machines to give this diameter and have still to understand how they are made. I have no doubt they are largely made by machine.
            > >
            > > All the best.
            > >
            > > Tim
            > >
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Just wondering if anybody has looked at the exhaust pipe arrangement inside an Indian made pop pop engine. Specifically are the pipes flush with the bottom of the boiler or do they stick up from the boiler any significant amount?
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • jeanyves_renaud
            Hi Zoomkat and Tim. No need to loose your time to check whether the engine works without penetration or with penetration of the pipe(s). It will work in both
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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              Hi Zoomkat and Tim.
              No need to loose your time to check whether the engine works without penetration or with penetration of the pipe(s). It will work in both cases. One day, accidentally the pipe slipped when I was soldering it. The engine ran satisfactorily. Then I heated the engine to locate the pipe at what I thought was the best place. No visible difference in frequency and thrust.
              Later (March 2006) I built a transparent engine made of glass with easy sliding of the pipe. See "Pop-pop engine made of Pyrex" (on the file copied by Frank on this forum or on www.eclecticspace.net). You should find in it the answers to your questions.
              Jean-Yves


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
              >
              > Zoomkat.
              >
              > I wish you every success. Please let us know how you get on.
              >
              > Tim
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I made my most recent engine (outboard#2) from the ends of 6 oz. juice cans. When I soldered the pipes to the bottom some of the pipe extends into the boiler chamber. This appears to allow a significant amount of water to be trapped in the boiler, hurting operation. I'll probably need to try to open the boiler and cut the ends of the inside pipes off flush with the bottom of the boiler so that the water doesn't get trapped and is blown out with each pulse.
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Zoomkat.
              > > >
              > > > A few weeks ago I desoldered the pipes of one of my small Indian engines, in my investigation into making the steel pipes. The end of the pipes seem to be cut to 45 degrees giving an elliptical profile at the end, and the hole in the boiler is almost round. This would indicate that the tube is soldered to the bottom surface of the boiler and does not intrude into the boiler at all. The boiler is about 2mm deep minus the thickness of material. I believe that unlike the ones I had in Bangladesh in the eighties which were hand made, that these more recent ones are machine made and possibly assembled by hand. I think they use a fly press or similar, to press out and cut the boiler. A specially made rolling machine to make accurate, small diameter tubes, and I suspect they are soldered on to the boiler in a jig as the 3 I have are all the same. I have measured them and they are to close in tolerance to be made solely by hand in my opinion. I also believe the pipes to be welded as when heated, no solder flows out of the join and I can not see any evidence of solder at the join, the entire length of the pipe.
              > > >
              > > > Replicating the boiler is simple with a dies and punches. I milled out a die and ground a punch and have been able to form the boiler. From my experiments I believe 2 dies are used in making the boiler, going from the witness marks. The boat hulls are probably made the same way. I have given the pipes much examination and thought, and have looked for rolling machines to give this diameter and have still to understand how they are made. I have no doubt they are largely made by machine.
              > > >
              > > > All the best.
              > > >
              > > > Tim
              > > >
              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Just wondering if anybody has looked at the exhaust pipe arrangement inside an Indian made pop pop engine. Specifically are the pipes flush with the bottom of the boiler or do they stick up from the boiler any significant amount?
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • zoomkat
              I looked at the Pop-pop_engine_made_of_pyrex.doc and from the discription of operation there, the test tube setup to me does not actually operate as an
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 4, 2009
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                I looked at the "Pop-pop_engine_made_of_pyrex.doc" and from the discription of operation there, the test tube setup to me does not actually operate as an engine. It is more of a boiler with the generated steam being condensed in the glass tube. This appears to duplicate some of the large engine experiments. The only work being done is slowly raising a column of water in the glas tube. The layout of the components in the test tube engine do not reflect the layout of pop pop engines that seem to operate well.

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Zoomkat and Tim.
                > No need to loose your time to check whether the engine works without penetration or with penetration of the pipe(s). It will work in both cases. One day, accidentally the pipe slipped when I was soldering it. The engine ran satisfactorily. Then I heated the engine to locate the pipe at what I thought was the best place. No visible difference in frequency and thrust.
                > Later (March 2006) I built a transparent engine made of glass with easy sliding of the pipe. See "Pop-pop engine made of Pyrex" (on the file copied by Frank on this forum or on www.eclecticspace.net). You should find in it the answers to your questions.
                > Jean-Yves
              • Tim
                Hi All. I think I can see this argument from both sides. I to am impressed by the Indian motors, and have been trying to replicate the ease of use and relative
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 6, 2009
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                  Hi All.

                  I think I can see this argument from both sides. I to am impressed by the Indian motors, and have been trying to replicate the ease of use and relative efficiency of them, and understand the finer points of their construction and operation. They are certainly good motors and one would think this as a good starting point for developing an easy to use and relatively powerfull motor. As Daryl pointed out in other messages, and from my own attempts so far, it seems it is a fruitless task to attempt to scale these motors up. On the other hand, having read, but not yet fully absorbed or understood all of the valuable information on Jean-Yves pages, I can see the benefits of his motor designs to prove or otherwise, a theory or idea, or for experimental purposes to accomodate test facilities and accuracy of results. My own far more primitive tests have shown that a motor to get results of a scientific nature, and those to propel a vessel well are by their intended purpose, very different in design. The theory must be proved, but to turn the information gained from the motor designed for scientific research, into a practical, efficient, powerfull and easy to use motor for propulsion, is probably going to involve very much more design, development and investigation. This has been my experience so far with these fickle and fascinating devices. A prime example is Jean-Yves 4 dollar motor. I made one and it works well. I can see how it has benefits for learning and proving ideas and testing. My own experience has shown that the example I made at least, has little use for propulsion. I have taken the basic idea and theory, and with the addition of another pipe and adjusting the lengths, get more power and certainly ease of use, but now it is of little use for Jean-Yves well documented methods of evaluation. This has only been my experience so far which is little compared to some. I believe that perhaps you are both looking at the same problem from different points of view, and probably hoping for different results. Simply put I believe Jean-Yves is looking for a satisfactory scientific result to further the knowledge of the motors and Zoomkat is wanting more power/speed for the next sardine tin/outboard pop pop. Somewhere there in the middle we may yet discover the perfect pop pop motor. Good luck gentlemen, as I see both views equally informative and usefull to my own developments.Your efforts are greatly appreciated . This very aspect is what captivates me and is why I am a proud member of this group.

                  Best of luck, regards and wishes.

                  Tim

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I looked at the "Pop-pop_engine_made_of_pyrex.doc" and from the discription of operation there, the test tube setup to me does not actually operate as an engine. It is more of a boiler with the generated steam being condensed in the glass tube. This appears to duplicate some of the large engine experiments. The only work being done is slowly raising a column of water in the glas tube. The layout of the components in the test tube engine do not reflect the layout of pop pop engines that seem to operate well.
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Zoomkat and Tim.
                  > > No need to loose your time to check whether the engine works without penetration or with penetration of the pipe(s). It will work in both cases. One day, accidentally the pipe slipped when I was soldering it. The engine ran satisfactorily. Then I heated the engine to locate the pipe at what I thought was the best place. No visible difference in frequency and thrust.
                  > > Later (March 2006) I built a transparent engine made of glass with easy sliding of the pipe. See "Pop-pop engine made of Pyrex" (on the file copied by Frank on this forum or on www.eclecticspace.net). You should find in it the answers to your questions.
                  > > Jean-Yves
                  >
                • David Halfpenny
                  One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop. It could be a bit like Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited? All to do with the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 6, 2009
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                    One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.

                    It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                    All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                    mass and air viscosity.

                    Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                    away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                    water bogs down the tiny boat.

                    David

                    --------------------------------------------------
                    From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...>
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                    To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?

                    > Hi All.
                    >

                    > I am a proud member of this group.
                  • zoomkat
                    there are engines that run very well and consistantly, engines that run so-so, and engines that don t really run at all. I think a lot can be gained using
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 6, 2009
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                      there are engines that run very well and consistantly, engines that run so-so, and engines that don't really run at all. I think a lot can be gained using critical observation of good running engines and determine what common elements they have and where they differ yet still run well. The Indian engines and Slater's engines both run well, so studying the common elements and differences of these might be a good place to start.

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                      >
                      > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                      > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                      > mass and air viscosity.
                      >
                      > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                      > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                      > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                      >
                      > David
                    • jeanyves_renaud
                      The Indian boat (that was also my first boat) is really performing for its size, but it is not the only one. Many people tried more or less to know why some
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                        The Indian boat (that was also my first boat) is really performing for its size, but it is not the only one. Many people tried more or less to know why some engines are better than others. Daryl and I worked much on that. I have studied more than 100 engines. The best ones are rigid ones, i.e. without diaphragm. I don't reject diaphragm engines!!! They have 2 excellent advantages: the best known one is the pop-pop sound. The other one is the size. Using a diaphragm allows to use shorter pipes, and this is to be considered when the engine is to be located in a small boat.
                        For rigid engines, it seems that there is an optimum ratio between the pipe length where the temp is lower than 100°C and inner diameter. This ratio is approx 62 whatever the size of the engine. It seems also obvious that the volume of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine. Then, what are the best materials, what is the best shape…. Nothing obvious. One good way would be to compile the data and performances of all our engines. Another one is to compete as I tried to initiate it with the spinning pop-pop. Nothing better than such a forum to do that. I volunteer to add the performances and characteristics of your good engines in my comparison table. The necessary data are:
                        Drum volume
                        Pipe inner diameter
                        Pipe length
                        Number of pipes
                        Frequency (if you know it. Otherwise I can calculate it)
                        Thrust at bollard pull
                        Then, to understand why… the materials and the shape (slopes, bends…) will be examined.
                        No need to bother everybody on the forum with all this. You can email the data directly to me. I will then display the result of the analysis.
                        Jean-Yves

                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > there are engines that run very well and consistantly, engines that run so-so, and engines that don't really run at all. I think a lot can be gained using critical observation of good running engines and determine what common elements they have and where they differ yet still run well. The Indian engines and Slater's engines both run well, so studying the common elements and differences of these might be a good place to start.
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                        > >
                        > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                        > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                        > > mass and air viscosity.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                        > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                        > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                        > >
                        > > David
                        >
                      • frankmcneilll
                        Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Queen Alexandra s Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                          Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                          Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
                          The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.

                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                          >
                          > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                          > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                          > mass and air viscosity.
                          >
                          > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                          > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                          > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                          >
                          > David
                          >
                          > --------------------------------------------------
                          > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                          > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
                          >
                          > > Hi All.
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I am a proud member of this group.
                          >
                        • Tim
                          Hi all. It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                            Hi all.

                            It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.

                            Jean-Yves.

                            In your last message you suggested.
                            "It seems also obvious that the volume
                            of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."

                            Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?

                            Thanks for your continued support and information.

                            Best regards.

                            Tim


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                            >
                            > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
                            > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                            > >
                            > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                            > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                            > > mass and air viscosity.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                            > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                            > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                            > >
                            > > David
                            > >
                            > > --------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                            > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
                            > >
                            > > > Hi All.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > > I am a proud member of this group.
                            > >
                            >
                          • jeanyves_renaud
                            Hi Tim, The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                              Hi Tim,
                              The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few millimiters down it is less, and soon very far from 100°C when looking downward. Where there is always water in the pipe, the pipe is cold. Where there is always steam, the pipe is at 100°C or more. In between the temperature is continiously variable between cold and 100°C. This part of the pipe can only condense steam. And the vaporization can only take place where the pipe is hotter than 100°C.

                              A small engine needs a rather big boiler to be performing for a reasonable time. For big engines (I woud say ID>15mm) there is no need of drum or coil or equivalent. I have not taken the time needed to examine the relation between boiler volume and pipe diameter, but for sure it is more complicated than a simple constant ratio.

                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi all.
                              >
                              > It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.
                              >
                              > Jean-Yves.
                              >
                              > In your last message you suggested.
                              > "It seems also obvious that the volume
                              > of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."
                              >
                              > Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?
                              >
                              > Thanks for your continued support and information.
                              >
                              > Best regards.
                              >
                              > Tim
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                              > >
                              > > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
                              > > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                              > > >
                              > > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                              > > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                              > > > mass and air viscosity.
                              > > >
                              > > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                              > > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                              > > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                              > > >
                              > > > David
                              > > >
                              > > > --------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                              > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
                              > > >
                              > > > > Hi All.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > I am a proud member of this group.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Tim
                              Hi Jean-Yves. Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                                Hi Jean-Yves.

                                Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.

                                Many thanks and best regards.

                                Tim

                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Tim,
                                > The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few millimiters down it is less, and soon very far from 100°C when looking downward. Where there is always water in the pipe, the pipe is cold. Where there is always steam, the pipe is at 100°C or more. In between the temperature is continiously variable between cold and 100°C. This part of the pipe can only condense steam. And the vaporization can only take place where the pipe is hotter than 100°C.
                                >
                                > A small engine needs a rather big boiler to be performing for a reasonable time. For big engines (I woud say ID>15mm) there is no need of drum or coil or equivalent. I have not taken the time needed to examine the relation between boiler volume and pipe diameter, but for sure it is more complicated than a simple constant ratio.
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi all.
                                > >
                                > > It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.
                                > >
                                > > Jean-Yves.
                                > >
                                > > In your last message you suggested.
                                > > "It seems also obvious that the volume
                                > > of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."
                                > >
                                > > Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for your continued support and information.
                                > >
                                > > Best regards.
                                > >
                                > > Tim
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                > > >
                                > > > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
                                > > > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                                > > > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                                > > > > mass and air viscosity.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                                > > > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                                > > > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > David
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                > > > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
                                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                                > > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > Hi All.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > I am a proud member of this group.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Tim
                                Hi Zoomkat. I can confirm these observations, as last night and tonight I have tried my engine number 3 diaphragm engine with the pipes flush to the boiler
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                                  Hi Zoomkat.

                                  I can confirm these observations, as last night and tonight I have tried my engine number 3 diaphragm engine with the pipes flush to the boiler surface, half way protruding into the boiler and almost touching the diaphragm. It is similar in design and size to the larger Indian motors. The only significant difference being pipe diameter. I have just completed the tests and only the latter seemed to have any noticeable effect. I think the problem with your latest motor must be some other aspect. Perhaps try more heat.

                                  Best of luck.

                                  Tim

                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Jean-Yves.
                                  >
                                  > Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.
                                  >
                                  > Many thanks and best regards.
                                  >
                                  > Tim
                                  >
                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Tim,
                                  > > The heat transmission by steam is far less than by liquid water. At the upper end of the water snake the temperature is approx 100°C, but a few millimiters down it is less, and soon very far from 100°C when looking downward. Where there is always water in the pipe, the pipe is cold. Where there is always steam, the pipe is at 100°C or more. In between the temperature is continiously variable between cold and 100°C. This part of the pipe can only condense steam. And the vaporization can only take place where the pipe is hotter than 100°C.
                                  > >
                                  > > A small engine needs a rather big boiler to be performing for a reasonable time. For big engines (I woud say ID>15mm) there is no need of drum or coil or equivalent. I have not taken the time needed to examine the relation between boiler volume and pipe diameter, but for sure it is more complicated than a simple constant ratio.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi all.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It is so refreshing to see such varied and interesting input and other questions and ideas arising from messages in the group, and how each seems intertwined with all the others in a mysterious pop pop sort of way. Not very constructive, just an observation.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jean-Yves.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In your last message you suggested.
                                  > > > "It seems also obvious that the volume
                                  > > > of the hot part (>100°C) is to be reduced when scaling up an engine."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is it possible to calculate an approximate boiler size given a pipe length, number of pipes and inside diameter? Is there a ratio for this? Also, you state that this ratio is based on temperatures below 100C. What happens if temperatures above this are reached?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks for your continued support and information.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Best regards.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Tim
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Search results from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Queen Alexandra's Birdwing (Ornithoptera alexandrae) is the largest butterfly in the world. Female Queen Alexandra's Birdwings are larger than males with markedly rounder, broader wings. The female can reach a wingspan of 31cm (>14 inches), a body length of 8 cm (3.2 inches) and a body mass of up to 12 grams (0.42 oz), all enormous measurements for a butterfly.
                                  > > > > The Western Pygmy Blue (Brephidium exilis or Brephidium exile) is one of the smallest butterflies in the world and is the smallest in North America. It has a wingspread of about half an inch.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > One possibility is that there is an optimum size for pop-pop.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > It could be a bit like "Why is the size-range of butterflies so limited?"
                                  > > > > > All to do with the ratio of breathing surfaces and flying surfaces to body
                                  > > > > > mass and air viscosity.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Maybe if we go too big, the mass of the boat (and the water it has to push
                                  > > > > > away) will overwhelm the motor, and if we go too small the viscosity of the
                                  > > > > > water bogs down the tiny boat.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > David
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                  > > > > > From: "Tim" <p-40.av8r@>
                                  > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:27 PM
                                  > > > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Hi All.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I am a proud member of this group.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Pete
                                  ... at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 7, 2009
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                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jean-Yves.
                                    >
                                    > Many thanks for your prompt and thorough explanation. I do hope that at some time you find some time to explore the relationship between boiler volume and pipe diameter. I think that would be most usefull. May I take this opportunity to thank you for your time and valuable research, and for sharing it with us. I personally find it enhances my understanding greatly. It is great to see so many people approaching the subject with such diversity. It is obvious from the short time I have been a member that people remain passionate and dedicated to the development of the pop pop boat.
                                    >
                                    > Many thanks and best regards.
                                    >
                                    > Tim

                                    Hi All,

                                    I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the inquisitive otherwise.

                                    I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop enthusiasts.

                                    Pete

                                  • frankmcneilll
                                    Hi Pete, On behalf of Old Old Frank, he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn t any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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                                      Hi Pete,

                                      On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.

                                      Frank


                                      >
                                      > Hi All,
                                      >
                                      > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                                      > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                                      > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                                      > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                                      > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                                      > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                                      > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                                      > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                                      > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                                      > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                                      > inquisitive otherwise.
                                      >
                                      > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                                      > enthusiasts.
                                      >
                                      > Pete
                                      >
                                    • Tim
                                      Hi Pete and all. From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl s masterly execution, design and construction
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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                                        Hi Pete and all.

                                        From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.

                                        Best regards.

                                        Tim


                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Pete,
                                        >
                                        > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
                                        >
                                        > Frank
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi All,
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                                        > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                                        > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                                        > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                                        > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                                        > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                                        > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                                        > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                                        > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                                        > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                                        > > inquisitive otherwise.
                                        > >
                                        > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                                        > > enthusiasts.
                                        > >
                                        > > Pete
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • arno_brosi
                                        I have to agree with that,and I m following this thread with great interest. But while we re testing the wheels,don t forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 8, 2009
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                                          I have to agree with that,and I'm following this thread with great interest.
                                          But while we're testing the wheels,don't forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
                                          Keep up the good work,

                                          regards,Arno


                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Pete and all.
                                          >
                                          > From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.
                                          >
                                          > Best regards.
                                          >
                                          > Tim
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Pete,
                                          > >
                                          > > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
                                          > >
                                          > > Frank
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hi All,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                                          > > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                                          > > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                                          > > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                                          > > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                                          > > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                                          > > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                                          > > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                                          > > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                                          > > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                                          > > > inquisitive otherwise.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                                          > > > enthusiasts.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Pete
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Tim
                                          Hi Arno. I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                            Hi Arno.

                                            I agree entirely. Indeed hull design is equally important than the engine. You may notice my lack of vessels so far for my motors. This is for a good reason. Firstly I wish to make a motor I am happy with, that has all of the attributes I am looking for in my current master plan. So far it is alluding me, but perseverance is beginning to pay off. Secondly I know little/nothing about boat design and need to address this. I enjoyed a visit to the National maritime museum, and the powerboat museum near where I live to observe and learn. It was a very usefull exercise. I discovered a hull design that evolved locally to me on the Thames river in the 1930's. The "Thames slipper launch" They are very elegant vessels but the hull design is very interesting. The area of the Thames they originate from, has delicate river banks, so the hull is designed to have minimal wake and therefore low drag. The boats make good speed with little power. They were originally powered by small petrol or diesel motors but modern examples, still made to this day are often fitted with electric power. This would suggest they are an efficient design, and perhaps worthy of further investigation. I have done further investigation and I have had some valuable help from enthusiasts of the slipper launches, so my plan is that when I have the motor how I want it, to make a slipper type hull. By some serendipity a couple of my glueless motors will suit nicely, for the shape of the stern slopes down gently and elegantly to the waterline. I think that from the pipe configuration of many of the motors people have posted pictures of in the group, where the pipes come over the top and slope downwards, this little known hull design may be worth others consideration to. The boats also have very pleasing lines. In particular, some of Daryl's and Jean-Yves' motors spring to mind that would seem to be very well suited. Please check out the slipper launch design. There are several good sites if you google. I think it will be of interest to some.

                                            By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.

                                            Very best regards.

                                            Tim

                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "arno_brosi" <arnobrosi@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I have to agree with that,and I'm following this thread with great interest.
                                            > But while we're testing the wheels,don't forget the bodywork,ie boats themselves!
                                            > Keep up the good work,
                                            >
                                            > regards,Arno
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Pete and all.
                                            > >
                                            > > From my novice ideas and primitive construction of the solderless and glueless motor, to Daryl's masterly execution, design and construction of his pop pop's, and each and every pop pop in between, are all "wheels". I don't think anyone is reinventing the wheel, just having fun making tyres that grip better in the wet. Long may it continue.
                                            > >
                                            > > Best regards.
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi Pete,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > On behalf of "Old Old Frank," he is more disappointed than amazed because there isn't any R&D center for Indian pop-pop boats. They are manufactured the same way pop-pop boats were manufactured before WW2, using reworked fixtures and tooling acquired mostly from the original owners of this stuff. I had already tried to get Rakesh Thukral, owner of "RattanDeep Enterprise" company to work with a group of bamboo artisans who could have provided him with small boat hulls made of bamboo. Most of India's bamboo grows wild in forests, rather than on plantations as it does in China, and India's forests are under the control of a top-heavy bureaucracy that Rakesh did not want to work with. Go to http://tinyurl.com/ydmnoq3 for the first message posted on the pop-pop steamboats group for confirmation of this intent.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Frank
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hi All,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I'm amazed as I'm sure Old Old Frank is that the Pop-Pop Group has
                                            > > > > developed into a Reasearch and Design Center for the little Indian
                                            > > > > pop-pop boats. I joined a few years back as a result of having played
                                            > > > > with pop-pop's back in the 50's. The parallel path that I have taken has
                                            > > > > me looking at all of the knowledge there is out there on something that
                                            > > > > seems so simple. My first thoughts were that we were reinventing the
                                            > > > > wheel or building a better mouse trap. The more you share your talent
                                            > > > > the more I find this to be true. It's not meant as a negative but rather
                                            > > > > shows the pleasure that we get from the challenges that we present each
                                            > > > > other. Keep up the good work and challenges. Life would be dull for the
                                            > > > > inquisitive otherwise.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I too am proud to be part of such a dedicated group of Pop-Pop
                                            > > > > enthusiasts.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Pete
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • zoomkat
                                            ... Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I d suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi Arno.
                                              >
                                              > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                                              >
                                              > Very best regards.
                                              >
                                              > Tim

                                              Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                                            • Tim
                                              Hi Zoomkat. Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                                Hi Zoomkat.

                                                Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!

                                                Many thanks and best regards.

                                                Tim


                                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi Arno.
                                                > >
                                                > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                                                > >
                                                > > Very best regards.
                                                > >
                                                > > Tim
                                                >
                                                > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                                                >
                                              • zoomkat
                                                The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                                  The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.

                                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

                                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Zoomkat.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for the suggestions. It would seem I am not very good at making diaphragm types as I tested my motor at 8 Bar pressure on a compressor and with a manometer for an hour, with no leaks. The motor did not leak, but after some testing, and running, it does. Though the pop pop noise is fun, I think I will concentrate mainly on boiler types as I have found it harder to make diaphragm motors reliable, and they appear to be more limited to the heat you can put into them. Also the information Jean-Yves presents is mainly for non diaphragm boiler types, and I find I am getting more predictable and satisfying results as well as better reliability . Also I am almost exclusively silver brazing my motors now, as I am using high temperatures, thanks to advice found here. The main reason is I do not wish to contaminate the lovely lake I intend to use with oil, in the event of a leakage or accident, so I am mainly investigating solid fuels. I have not succesfully made a diaphragm motor silver brazing yet, despite numerous attempts. My wife also complains less at long endurance testing of non popping motors. The latter is probably the most important aspect of my development process!
                                                  >
                                                  > Many thanks and best regards.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tim
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hi Arno.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > By the way I am still working on the instructions for you, but the motor is still overheating. I am having trouble getting suitable thin walled brass pipe. Brass pipe is like rocking horse poo around here. The all copper pipes get to hot through the length, and it eventually stops. Perseverance will again hopefully pay off. Thanks for your patience.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Very best regards.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Tim
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Air leaks can result on dryout and overheating. I'd suggest a positive and negative pressure test on your boilers to see if leaks have developed. If there are airleaks on the seams, you may want to try some sealant to see if this fixes the problem. If there are no air leaks you may want to try reducing the angle of the boiler a little to increase the water feed to the boileron each cycle.
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • David Halfpenny
                                                  ... From: zoomkat Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM To: Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re:
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                                    --------------------------------------------------
                                                    From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
                                                    Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:15 PM
                                                    To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Inside Indian engine?

                                                    > The only real difference between diaphragm and non diaphragm engines is
                                                    > boiler layout and construction methods. The main function of the diaphram
                                                    > is to make noise. The below video shows a working combination of both.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c

                                                    Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.

                                                    Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
                                                    also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
                                                    volume may well be a critical part of the design.

                                                    I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
                                                    but I'm not expecting a simple answer.

                                                    David 1/2d
                                                  • zoomkat
                                                    ... What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I ve started another
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 9, 2009
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                                                      > >
                                                      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE_wRtvA5c
                                                      >
                                                      > Hey Zoomkat, that is exactly what I have been wondering.
                                                      >
                                                      > Separating out the diaphragm not only takes it way from the direct heat, it
                                                      > also provides a separate "air spring" for the resonance - and of course its
                                                      > volume may well be a critical part of the design.
                                                      >
                                                      > I would like to know how the Frequency of pops corresponds to power output,
                                                      > but I'm not expecting a simple answer.
                                                      >
                                                      > David 1/2d

                                                      What I find of probably more interest is that the detached diaphram setup may well be serving as a controlled steam condensing unit. I've started another discussion on the pop pop condensation cycle. The engine in the video is very similar to an idea I have for a stand off condensing unit for a larger engine.
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