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Sloped/tilted boilers best?

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  • zoomkat
    It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 27, 2009
      It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is applied and under varing conditions. Kind of changing my direction to tinker with tilted boilers vs flat ones for the time being, at least for the larger ones.
    • Tim
      Hi Zoomkat. I have been going back to basics. Going on something I know works well. I have been studying the Indian engines that I have, again. 3 small types
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 27, 2009
        Hi Zoomkat.

        I have been going back to basics. Going on something I know works well. I have been studying the Indian engines that I have, again. 3 small types and one larger type. I have found all found perform well. The weight of the boats is not light for their size as they are made entirely of steel, other than the thin brass diaphragm, and make good speed. Funny really, because I have recently found my motors have performed better made of steel, and I tried out sciencetoymakers motors in steel to, and had the same result. The design I recently came up with barely performs at all made from Aluminium, but very well made from steel. Strange as I believe that Aluminium is more thermally conductive than steel. I believe I will tinker with thin steel motors, as you tinker with inclined motors. Anyway back to your message. As you suggest, both the small and large types of Indian motors I have, have a slight incline, the boiler being slightly lower at the front, and start giving power almost instantaneously, and only stopping when the heat source is all but extinguished. They do not seem to vary greatly in their performance, with fluctuations in heat. Though they are small motors, I intend to try and see to what level I can scale them up. The motors I have are relatively new but show signs of corrosion. They all perform faultlessly though. They have a fairly shallow incline, but I recall that the boats I had In the 1980's in Bangladesh, had a more pronounced incline and were very reliable and lasted for the 5 years I was there. I believe being smothered in soot and oil from constant enjoyment prolonged their longevity. I wish very much I still had them.

        Good luck with your investigations, and please let me know how you get on.

        All the best.

        Tim

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
        >
        > It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is applied and under varing conditions. Kind of changing my direction to tinker with tilted boilers vs flat ones for the time being, at least for the larger ones.
        >
      • zoomkat
        For larger engines metals that have higher specific heat values as well as heat conductivity may be required. The larger engines will most likely operate at
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 27, 2009
          For larger engines metals that have higher specific heat values as well as heat conductivity may be required. The larger engines will most likely operate at lower frequencies so the metal will have to absorb energy constantly from the heat source, and act as an energy storage medium. For a large slug of water to be quickly flashed, a significant amount of energy will be required to be stored in the metal for quick release. I think the sloped boilers provide somewhat of a self controlling feed setup that works well in resonating operation.

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Zoomkat.
          >
          > I have been going back to basics. Going on something I know works well. I have been studying the Indian engines that I have, again. 3 small types and one larger type. I have found all found perform well. The weight of the boats is not light for their size as they are made entirely of steel, other than the thin brass diaphragm, and make good speed. Funny really, because I have recently found my motors have performed better made of steel, and I tried out sciencetoymakers motors in steel to, and had the same result. The design I recently came up with barely performs at all made from Aluminium, but very well made from steel. Strange as I believe that Aluminium is more thermally conductive than steel. I believe I will tinker with thin steel motors, as you tinker with inclined motors. Anyway back to your message. As you suggest, both the small and large types of Indian motors I have, have a slight incline, the boiler being slightly lower at the front, and start giving power almost instantaneously, and only stopping when the heat source is all but extinguished. They do not seem to vary greatly in their performance, with fluctuations in heat. Though they are small motors, I intend to try and see to what level I can scale them up. The motors I have are relatively new but show signs of corrosion. They all perform faultlessly though. They have a fairly shallow incline, but I recall that the boats I had In the 1980's in Bangladesh, had a more pronounced incline and were very reliable and lasted for the 5 years I was there. I believe being smothered in soot and oil from constant enjoyment prolonged their longevity. I wish very much I still had them.
          >
          > Good luck with your investigations, and please let me know how you get on.
          >
          > All the best.
          >
          > Tim
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
          > >
          > > It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is applied and under varing conditions. Kind of changing my direction to tinker with tilted boilers vs flat ones for the time being, at least for the larger ones.
          > >
          >
        • Daryl Foster
          Thanks for the suggestion re building flat tubes. When I first started building these engines I could have written the same as you did below. I spent a lot of
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 28, 2009
            Thanks for the suggestion re building flat tubes.
            When I first started building these engines I could have written the same as you did below. I spent a lot of time trying to scale up with little success. It seems it does not work that way. The India design is close to perfect but only when you stay very close to the same boiler volume and tube ID and length. The tilt of the boiler seems relevant to the good running of these little engines but I think it has more to do with providing clearance for the flame and an automatic air trap when filling which helps give a fast start. Consider that good engines can be built in all shapes including spheres or just coiled tube, and, the pipes can be located anywhere. I would hate to dampen your enthusiasm or discourage you in any way from trying your ideas because the new "best engine" may come from free thinking rather than from following what has been done before.
            Perhaps the boats you had back in the 80's lasted longer because they were made of brass???

            --- On Sun, 9/27/09, Tim <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:

            From: Tim <p-40.av8r@...>
            Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Sloped/tilted boilers best?
            To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 8:55 PM

            Hi Zoomkat.

            I have been going back to basics. Going on something I know works well. I have been studying the Indian engines that I have, again. 3 small types and one larger type. I have found all found perform well. The weight of the boats is not light for their size as they are made entirely of steel, other than the thin brass diaphragm, and make good speed. Funny really, because I have recently found my motors have performed better made of steel, and I tried out sciencetoymakers motors in steel to, and had the same result. The design I recently came up with barely performs at all made from Aluminium, but very well made from steel. Strange as I believe that Aluminium is more thermally conductive than steel. I believe I will tinker with thin steel motors, as you tinker with inclined motors. Anyway back to your message. As you suggest, both the small and large types of Indian motors I have, have a slight incline, the boiler being slightly lower at the front, and start giving power almost instantaneously, and only stopping when the heat source is all but extinguished. They do not seem to vary greatly in their performance, with fluctuations in heat. Though they are small motors, I intend to try and see to what level I can scale them up. The motors I have are relatively new but show signs of corrosion. They all perform faultlessly though. They have a fairly shallow incline, but I recall that the boats I had In the 1980's in Bangladesh, had a more pronounced incline and were very reliable and lasted for the 5 years I was there. I believe being smothered in soot and oil from constant enjoyment prolonged their longevity. I wish very much I still had them.

            Good luck with your investigations, and please let me know how you get on.

            All the best.

            Tim

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
            >
            > It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is applied and under varing conditions. Kind of changing my direction to tinker with tilted boilers vs flat ones for the time being, at least for the larger ones.
            >




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          • Tim
            Hi Daryl and Zoomkat. Thank you for the reply Daryl. It would be foolish to not heed such knowledge and experience. Thank you also for the explanation of the
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 28, 2009
              Hi Daryl and Zoomkat.

              Thank you for the reply Daryl. It would be foolish to not heed such knowledge and experience. Thank you also for the explanation of the attributes of the Indian motors and the encouragement of free thinking. Every set back, and everything I learn only serves to redouble my efforts, and fires my imagination and thought process. it is an inspirational place we have here. I was a small boy so have no idea about the boat materials, but brass was abundant so you may be right.

              Zoomkat, when I was doing the tests on my no glue and solder motor I found that the greater the incline, the less power it seemed to produce. Equally if the angle was to shallow it would loose power. As unlike most of the other motors I have seen, the whole motor and pipes are flat, would it help if I rigged up a simple thrust measuring device, as described on Jean-Yves website, and incorporate an inclinometer to see more precisely the optimum angle. If you would like, and it would be of use, I will gladly do this at the weekend on all the motors I have made.

              Best regards.

              Tim

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the suggestion re building flat tubes.
              > When I first started building these engines I could have written the same as you did below. I spent a lot of time trying to scale up with little success. It seems it does not work that way. The India design is close to perfect but only when you stay very close to the same boiler volume and tube ID and length. The tilt of the boiler seems relevant to the good running of these little engines but I think it has more to do with providing clearance for the flame and an automatic air trap when filling which helps give a fast start. Consider that good engines can be built in all shapes including spheres or just coiled tube, and, the pipes can be located anywhere. I would hate to dampen your enthusiasm or discourage you in any way from trying your ideas because the new "best engine" may come from free thinking rather than from following what has been done before.
              > Perhaps the boats you had back in the 80's lasted longer because they were made of brass???
              >
              > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, Tim <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Tim <p-40.av8r@...>
              > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Sloped/tilted boilers best?
              > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
              > Received: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 8:55 PM
              >
              >
              > Hi Zoomkat.
              >
              > I have been going back to basics. Going on something I know works well. I have been studying the Indian engines that I have, again. 3 small types and one larger type. I have found all found perform well. The weight of the boats is not light for their size as they are made entirely of steel, other than the thin brass diaphragm, and make good speed. Funny really, because I have recently found my motors have performed better made of steel, and I tried out sciencetoymakers motors in steel to, and had the same result. The design I recently came up with barely performs at all made from Aluminium, but very well made from steel. Strange as I believe that Aluminium is more thermally conductive than steel. I believe I will tinker with thin steel motors, as you tinker with inclined motors. Anyway back to your message. As you suggest, both the small and large types of Indian motors I have, have a slight incline, the boiler being slightly lower at the front, and
              > start giving power almost instantaneously, and only stopping when the heat source is all but extinguished. They do not seem to vary greatly in their performance, with fluctuations in heat. Though they are small motors, I intend to try and see to what level I can scale them up. The motors I have are relatively new but show signs of corrosion. They all perform faultlessly though. They have a fairly shallow incline, but I recall that the boats I had In the 1980's in Bangladesh, had a more pronounced incline and were very reliable and lasted for the 5 years I was there. I believe being smothered in soot and oil from constant enjoyment prolonged their longevity. I wish very much I still had them.
              >
              > Good luck with your investigations, and please let me know how you get on.
              >
              > All the best.
              >
              > Tim
              >
              >   --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
              > >
              > > It seems that the most successful boilers are the ones that operate at an angle to horozontal. Just from observation they seem to run as long as fuel is applied and under varing conditions. Kind of changing my direction to tinker with tilted boilers vs flat ones for the time being, at least for the larger ones.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • zoomkat
              ... I picture what is going on in a slanted boiler is somewhat like waves rolling up on a beach. I suspect the water at the leading edge is thin allowing for
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 28, 2009
                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:

                > Zoomkat, when I was doing the tests on my no glue and solder motor I found that the greater the incline, the less power it seemed to produce. Equally if the angle was to shallow it would loose power. As unlike most of the other motors I have seen, the whole motor and pipes are flat, would it help if I rigged up a simple thrust measuring device, as described on Jean-Yves website, and incorporate an inclinometer to see more precisely the optimum angle. If you would like, and it would be of use, I will gladly do this at the weekend on all the motors I have made.

                I picture what is going on in a slanted boiler is somewhat like waves rolling up on a beach. I suspect the water at the leading edge is thin allowing for flashing as it moves up the slope until sufficient pressure is generated to push it down the boiler and out the pipes. A more horozontal boiler may be tempermental to over feeding and a more vertical boiler may have issues with the extreme changes in water head among other things. Much to do to deduce from what works, to why it works.
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