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No glue or solder motor.

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  • Tim
    Hi all. I have posted some new pictures in my album Tims pop pop pictures of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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      Hi all.

      I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.

      Tim
    • frankmcneilll
      Hi Tim, I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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        Hi Tim,

        I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.

        Best wishes and a big thank you,

        Old Frank




        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all.
        >
        > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
        >
        > Tim
        >
      • Tim
        Hi Frank. What a superb idea! I like it lots. I am glad you found it of interest. As a matter of fact I was thinking of attaching some foam sponsons on either
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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          Hi Frank.

          What a superb idea! I like it lots. I am glad you found it of interest. As a matter of fact I was thinking of attaching some foam sponsons on either side kind of like a 3 point hydroplane with the pipes just below the water, but the issue of how to heat it was bewildering me. I have a pencil blow lamp but it is to large. One of those micro torches you can get might be an idea, or perhaps modify a lighter by attaching a small hose to the nozzle and taping down the valve with the flame angled downward towards the boiler part. Much food for thought.

          All the very best.

          Tim

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Tim,
          >
          > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
          >
          > Best wishes and a big thank you,
          >
          > Old Frank
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi all.
          > >
          > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
          > >
          > > Tim
          > >
          >
        • Tim
          Frank. Please check out the new concept pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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            Frank.

            Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.

            I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

            Many thanks and best regards.

            Tim

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tim,
            >
            > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
            >
            > Best wishes and a big thank you,
            >
            > Old Frank
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi all.
            > >
            > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
            > >
            > > Tim
            > >
            >
          • frankmcneilll
            Hi Tim, As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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              Hi Tim,

              As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.

              Best wishes, Frank


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
              >
              > Frank.
              >
              > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
              >
              > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
              >
              > Many thanks and best regards.
              >
              > Tim
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Tim,
              > >
              > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
              > >
              > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
              > >
              > > Old Frank
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi all.
              > > >
              > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
              > > >
              > > > Tim
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Tim
              Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please. Many thanks. Tim
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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                Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.

                Many thanks.

                Tim

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Tim,
                >
                > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                >
                > Best wishes, Frank
                >
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Frank.
                > >
                > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                > >
                > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                > >
                > > Many thanks and best regards.
                > >
                > > Tim
                > >
                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Tim,
                > > >
                > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                > > >
                > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                > > >
                > > > Old Frank
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi all.
                > > > >
                > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                > > > >
                > > > > Tim
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • frankmcneilll
                Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It s a freebie
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
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                  Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.

                  Old Frank

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                  >
                  > Many thanks.
                  >
                  > Tim
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Tim,
                  > >
                  > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                  > >
                  > > Best wishes, Frank
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Frank.
                  > > >
                  > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                  > > >
                  > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                  > > >
                  > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tim
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Tim,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Old Frank
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi all.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Tim
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Tim
                  Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                    >
                    > Old Frank
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks.
                    > >
                    > > Tim
                    > >
                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Tim,
                    > > >
                    > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                    > > >
                    > > > Best wishes, Frank
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Frank.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tim
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Tim,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Old Frank
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hi all.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Tim
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • frankmcneilll
                    Hi Tim, Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, flotsam, jetsam and lagan and a really
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Tim,

                      Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but they are really complicated.

                      Best wishes, Frank


                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                      > >
                      > > Old Frank
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                      > > >
                      > > > Many thanks.
                      > > >
                      > > > Tim
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Tim,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Best wishes, Frank
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Frank.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tim
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Old Frank
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Hi all.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Tim
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • David Halfpenny
                      ... From: frankmcneilll Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:38 PM To: Subject:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...>
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:38 PM
                        To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.

                        > Hi Tim,
                        >
                        > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the
                        > photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really
                        > primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything
                        > like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get
                        > somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under
                        > a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves
                        > would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something
                        > heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low
                        > velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can
                        > would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It
                        > should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under
                        > it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other
                        > flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several
                        > sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but
                        > they are really complicated.
                        >
                        Frank,

                        This is getting close to the Pulse Jet i/c engine.

                        That has only a single valve, and for a good reason - the tube is tuned to
                        give a resonance which acts as the other valve. Pressure pulses run up and
                        down the tube: when the negative pressure pulse reaches the valve, it opens
                        to draw more air in and then slams shut for the power "stroke".

                        I'm convinced that resonance is the key to pop-pop, just as it is the key
                        to the "displacer-less" Stirling engine and the penny whistle come to that.

                        David
                      • frankmcneilll
                        ... Hi David, You probably have more information about thermo-acoustic generators than I do, but there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --------------------------------------------------
                          > From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:38 PM
                          > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.
                          >
                          > > Hi Tim,
                          > >
                          > > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the
                          > > photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really
                          > > primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything
                          > > like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get
                          > > somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under
                          > > a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves
                          > > would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something
                          > > heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low
                          > > velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can
                          > > would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It
                          > > should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under
                          > > it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other
                          > > flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several
                          > > sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but
                          > > they are really complicated.
                          > >
                          > Frank,
                          >
                          > This is getting close to the Pulse Jet i/c engine.
                          >
                          > That has only a single valve, and for a good reason - the tube is tuned to
                          > give a resonance which acts as the other valve. Pressure pulses run up and
                          > down the tube: when the negative pressure pulse reaches the valve, it opens
                          > to draw more air in and then slams shut for the power "stroke".
                          >
                          > I'm convinced that resonance is the key to pop-pop, just as it is the key
                          > to the "displacer-less" Stirling engine and the penny whistle come to that.
                          >
                          > David
                          >

                          Hi David,

                          You probably have more information about thermo-acoustic generators than I do, but there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at http://tinyurl.com/nocmth that I would buy if I was twenty years younger and a whole lot richer.

                          Best wishes, Frank
                        • Pete
                          Hi David & Frank, Franks scheme is close to the Rumsey boat. He had flappers the Directed pulses of water and steam to an outlet on the stern. See figure 20
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Hi David & Frank,

                            Franks' scheme is close to the Rumsey boat. He had "flappers' the Directed pulses of water and steam to an outlet on the stern. See figure 20 from his 1788 British Patent.

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pop-pop-steamboats/photos/album/1480100557/pic/1856242661/view

                            I suspect that John Fitch's and Ben Franklin's designs were similar.

                            Pete

                             


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------
                            > From: "frankmcneilll" frankmcneilll@...
                            > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:38 PM
                            > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.
                            >
                            > > Hi Tim,
                            > >
                            > > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the
                            > > photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really
                            > > primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything
                            > > like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get
                            > > somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under
                            > > a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves
                            > > would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something
                            > > heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low
                            > > velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can
                            > > would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It
                            > > should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under
                            > > it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other
                            > > flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several
                            > > sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but
                            > > they are really complicated.
                            > >
                            > Frank,
                            >
                            > This is getting close to the Pulse Jet i/c engine.
                            >
                            > That has only a single valve, and for a good reason - the tube is tuned to
                            > give a resonance which acts as the other valve. Pressure pulses run up and
                            > down the tube: when the negative pressure pulse reaches the valve, it opens
                            > to draw more air in and then slams shut for the power "stroke".
                            >
                            > I'm convinced that resonance is the key to pop-pop, just as it is the key
                            > to the "displacer-less" Stirling engine and the penny whistle come to that.
                            >
                            > David
                            >

                          • zoomkat
                            Do you have any pictures of the engines in place for operating? I m also inerested in how the metal is bent such that it is self sealing and does not require
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 22, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Do you have any pictures of the engines in place for operating? I'm also inerested in how the metal is bent such that it is self sealing and does not require any sealing materials.

                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi all.
                              >
                              > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                              >
                              > Tim
                              >
                            • jeanyves_renaud
                              2 things I want to comment in the last messages: 1) There are many ways to convert heat in another kind of energy. The pop-pop engine is a good and very simple
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                2 things I want to comment in the last messages:
                                1) There are many ways to convert heat in another kind of energy. The pop-pop engine is a good and very simple example. What I don't like is the use of words such as "amplifier". You can add and convert various kinds of energies, but you cannot multiply them.
                                2) The pop-pop engine is definitely a resonator. My math model doesn't work for diaphragm engines. But for rigid engines, give me the size of your engine and I'll give you the frequency. Daryl and I played that game many times.


                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --------------------------------------------------
                                > > From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@>
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:38 PM
                                > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.
                                > >
                                > > > Hi Tim,
                                > > >
                                > > > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the
                                > > > photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really
                                > > > primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything
                                > > > like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get
                                > > > somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under
                                > > > a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves
                                > > > would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something
                                > > > heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low
                                > > > velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can
                                > > > would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It
                                > > > should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under
                                > > > it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other
                                > > > flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several
                                > > > sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but
                                > > > they are really complicated.
                                > > >
                                > > Frank,
                                > >
                                > > This is getting close to the Pulse Jet i/c engine.
                                > >
                                > > That has only a single valve, and for a good reason - the tube is tuned to
                                > > give a resonance which acts as the other valve. Pressure pulses run up and
                                > > down the tube: when the negative pressure pulse reaches the valve, it opens
                                > > to draw more air in and then slams shut for the power "stroke".
                                > >
                                > > I'm convinced that resonance is the key to pop-pop, just as it is the key
                                > > to the "displacer-less" Stirling engine and the penny whistle come to that.
                                > >
                                > > David
                                > >
                                >
                                > Hi David,
                                >
                                > You probably have more information about thermo-acoustic generators than I do, but there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at http://tinyurl.com/nocmth that I would buy if I was twenty years younger and a whole lot richer.
                                >
                                > Best wishes, Frank
                                >
                              • Tim
                                Hi Zoomkat. I will take some pictures of one running in my test rig for you. The folds are simple though effective. I fold a rectangle of thin steel in half.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Zoomkat.

                                  I will take some pictures of one running in my test rig for you. The folds are simple though effective. I fold a rectangle of thin steel in half. Crease it down well and crimp it along the long closed side with bull nosed pliers. On the long open side. Place your pliers at right angles to the material and grip it 2 or 3 mm in. Make a 45 degree bend and move the pliers half the width of the jaws along and repeat the 45 fold. Repeat until you get to the end of the long open side. Turn it over and repeat the process so you have a 90 degree bend. Now apply a little pressure so the folds are snug to each other and with your pliers fold the 90 bend right over at one end. Now from the outside, crimp that down and it will pull in a bit of the 90 fold for a little way down. move your pliers along half the jaw width and nip it down all the way keeping pressure on the material to keep the folds together as you go. When done crimp (nip tightly right on the edge with just the nose of the pliers) the folds outside edge all the way along the fold you just made. Turn it over again keeping pressure on the fold all the time it can spring out at the moment. Put the nose of the pliers level with the depth of your first fold and make a 45 degree fold in the same direction as your first fold, and repeat the first process all the way along. Turn it over and make the fold 90 degrees as before and finally fold it all the way up and crimp it as before. You should now have a reasonably flat tube depending on how accurately you made the folds. The profile of the fold is kind of like two interlocking "U" shapes. If you repeat the same process at one end you can blow into the tube and you should have no leaks. Folding where 2 folds meet is tricky and as it all gets a bit thick. Do not be tempted to try and flatten it down to much where 2 folds meet or the material will split in the corner. There is another method of this fold that is mechanically stronger in that you fold one side first then insert the flat face into the fold and then fold both up again which truely interlocks the sides together, but it is harder to do when you have to do other folds that join it. That is how you make the folds. If you want to complete the motor make a single fold up the first closed side. This is not for sealing but for rigidity. Insert a pair of chopsticks into the tube so they meet at the tips and are as far apart at the open end. Take your pliers and make the fold between the chopsticks. This keeps them apart. Now with the side of your pliers run it up and down the inside of the chopsticks applying quite a lot of pressure. Turn it over and repeat. now on the outside, nip the material up with the pliers up to the chopstick. Put pressure on the other side of the chopstick so you get a nice crease. Repeat on the other chopstick and both chopsticks on the other side. This is important. You now have a motor!

                                  I hope this helps.

                                  Best regards.

                                  Tim

                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Do you have any pictures of the engines in place for operating? I'm also inerested in how the metal is bent such that it is self sealing and does not require any sealing materials.
                                  >
                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi all.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                  > >
                                  > > Tim
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Tim
                                  Hi Frank. I think I know what you are suggesting. I will give it some thought. In the mean time. I recently had to replace the O ring in my bicycle pump. It is
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Frank.

                                    I think I know what you are suggesting. I will give it some thought. In the mean time. I recently had to replace the O ring in my bicycle pump. It is made from aluminium and both ends unscrewed. In one end was a small rubber top hat section on a diaphragm that acted as a non return valve. The flow is obviously good. and should take quite a lot of pressure the other way, but opened and let through flow very easily. You could possibly get two pumps and cut them down and join them to the volume you require.

                                    Another thought is where I work we use diaphragm pumps a lot. They are very simple and go on forever. Occasionally I have to replace the diaphragm, and inside are ping pong balls captivated in a chamber.Forget the diaphragm part, although you could use this for a popping device. The pumps have great flow and the balls move with very little effort. and make a good seal the other way.

                                    Following is a link with some information you may find of interest.

                                    http://www.engineersedge.com/pumps/diaphram_type_pump.htm

                                    Good luck and let me know how you get on. I have an idea I will try out.

                                    Best regards.

                                    Tim

                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Tim,
                                    >
                                    > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but they are really complicated.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes, Frank
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Old Frank
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Many thanks.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tim
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Frank.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Tim
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Old Frank
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Tim
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • P
                                    Hi Frank, the mechanics in a coffee machine consists of nothing more than a heating element and a tube with a valve. Why not trying a valveless tube, ok..it
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Frank,
                                      the mechanics in a coffee machine consists of nothing more than a heating element and a tube with a valve.

                                      Why not trying a valveless tube, ok..it works completely different but it is just like the pop-pop an engine without any moving parts.

                                      http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3321-steam-fires-underwater-jet-engine.html


                                      Paul


                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Tim,
                                      >
                                      > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but they are really complicated.
                                      >
                                      > Best wishes, Frank
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando.MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Old Frank
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Many thanks.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tim
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl.com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Frank.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Tim
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Old Frank
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Tim
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Tim
                                      Zoomkat. I have added some pictures for you in my album tims pop pop pictures . They are entitled test . The fuel is simply vegetable oil in a jar lid with a
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Zoomkat.

                                        I have added some pictures for you in my album "tims pop pop pictures". They are entitled "test". The fuel is simply vegetable oil in a jar lid with a piece of string wrapped around a can pull tab. It works better, and can handle two flames. I had production of power after only a few seconds and it really got going after about five minutes or so. Again I stress it works better at as shallow angle as possible, and keeping the tubes just below the surface. The engine pictured was the first I made. It did pop well, but I trod on it and now it does not. It still works though as you can see. The heat should be applied at the point where the tubes and plate section at the boiler end meet for optimum power. When I took the pictures it had been going for five minutes or so. I then had to transfer them onto my other PC and then on to my main PC, and upload them to here. Write this message to you and it is still going strong. I will let it keep running to see how long it will run for.

                                        Thanks for your interest and very best regards.

                                        Tim

                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Do you have any pictures of the engines in place for operating? I'm also inerested in how the metal is bent such that it is self sealing and does not require any sealing materials.
                                        >
                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi all.
                                        > >
                                        > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                        > >
                                        > > Tim
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • KENNETH TAIT SR.
                                        KOOOL!!    The Aussie s and Brit s were always machine experimenter s on many off beat items that worked. Now all we need to do is heat water to steam
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
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                                          KOOOL!!    The Aussie's and Brit's were always machine experimenter's on many off beat items that worked.
                                          Now all we need to do is heat water to steam quickly and cheaply in a small container.
                                          The tank less on demand water heaters or steam jenny's come to mind run on propane.
                                          Another question, is this dry steam or wet steam?

                                          That was the problem with steam ships, the boilers and fuel storage took up so much room, you lost valuable cargo space.
                                           
                                          A lot of food for thought.


                                          --- On Wed, 9/23/09, P <lordbthry@...> wrote:

                                          From: P <lordbthry@...>
                                          Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.
                                          To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 5:47 AM

                                           

                                          Hi Frank,
                                          the mechanics in a coffee machine consists of nothing more than a heating element and a tube with a valve.

                                          Why not trying a valveless tube, ok..it works completely different but it is just like the pop-pop an engine without any moving parts.

                                          http://www.newscien tist.com/ article/dn3321- steam-fires- underwater- jet-engine. html

                                          Paul

                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ ...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Tim,
                                          >
                                          > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several sketches for reversible versions that look a bit more likely to work, but they are really complicated.
                                          >
                                          > Best wishes, Frank
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando. MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Old Frank
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Many thanks.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tim
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl. com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Frank.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Tim
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Old Frank
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened. Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > Tim
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >


                                        • Tim
                                          Hi Kenneth. Many thanks for your reply and enthusiasm. I would not expect to hear a shout of Eureka! in the near future, as lots of people have been trying
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 23, 2009
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                                            Hi Kenneth.

                                            Many thanks for your reply and enthusiasm.

                                            I would not expect to hear a shout of "Eureka!" in the near future, as lots of people have been trying to achieve this since the early 1800's. I believe that the use of steam has almost reached its pinnacle in modern technology, other than the use of high tech materials. My own investigations have shown that there are enthusiasts here in this group, and elsewhere, that have done significant and very thorough research into pop pop motors. There is still development to be done in order to understand them thoroughly, and say "This is the perfect pop pop". Mathematically Mr. Jean-Yves has suggested this, but I believe, and in no way dissrepectfully, has a long way to go yet to achieve it practically. This is what I find fascinating about pop pop motors, as I am sure do others. Until then, I satisfy myself with thinking of different ways of using what we already have, and enjoying that. My thoughts are that for such a simple device as a pop pop motor, leaves little scope in the way of improvement, and any such improvements will be a very long and drawn out process. Let us not let that deter us though, but contemplate the facts and physics, whilst enjoying our hobby. With that in mind we can always look forward to a small but significant pop pop eureka!

                                            Thanks again and best regards.

                                            Tim

                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "KENNETH TAIT SR." <papatait45@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > KOOOL!!    The Aussie's and Brit's were always machine experimenter's on many off beat items that worked.
                                            > Now all we need to do is heat water to steam quickly and cheaply in a small container.
                                            > The tank less on demand water heaters or steam jenny's come to mind run on propane.
                                            > Another question, is this dry steam or wet steam?
                                            >
                                            > That was the problem with steam ships, the boilers and fuel storage took up so much room, you lost valuable cargo space.
                                            >  
                                            > A lot of food for thought.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- On Wed, 9/23/09, P <lordbthry@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > From: P <lordbthry@...>
                                            > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: No glue or solder motor.
                                            > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 5:47 AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Frank,
                                            >
                                            > the mechanics in a coffee machine consists of nothing more than a heating element and a tube with a valve.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Why not trying a valveless tube, ok..it works completely different but it is just like the pop-pop an engine without any moving parts.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > http://www.newscien tist.com/ article/dn3321- steam-fires- underwater- jet-engine. html
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Paul
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ ...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > Hi Tim,
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > Sometime when you have absolutely nothing else to do, please look in the photos section for my album, "flotsam, jetsam and lagan" and a really primitive sketch titled "Propulsion Tube." It is unlikely that anything like this would actually work but I won't know for sure if I can't get somebody who is handy with tools to put one together and hook it up under a sardine can, or something of the sort. The flapper type check valves would need to swing up and down without binding and be made of something heavy enough to sink and light enough so they could be lifted by low velocity water flow. The theory is that applying heat to the sardine can would heat water between the flapper valves enough to generate flow. It should lift one flapper enough for some of the heated water to pass under it, but I don't know if removing some of that water would lift the other flapper enough for water to flow in and replace it. I have several sketches for reversible versions
                                            > that look a bit more likely to work, but they are really complicated.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > Best wishes, Frank
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > Thanks Frank. Got it. Thank you.
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Tim the link was to video in file folder titled Pofpof plano. Look inside the folder and click on funcionando. MOV if you have QuickTime Player. It's a freebie for both PCs and Macs that can be downloaded if you don't already have it installed.
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Old Frank
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Thanks for the reply Frank. I will investigate the candle lighters. The link you sent is not available. Do you have an alternative please.
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Many thanks.
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Tim
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > As you stated, your new pictures are a bit rough. Correct me if this assumption is wrong, but my impression is that the forward end of your propulsion tube would be pinched to close it. If that is the case, go to http://tinyurl. com/lafmyq for a video clip of something similar that Jorge Cordero built a while back. The amount of water ejected by his small flattened tube is impressive, but I don't know how long the operation might be sustained. Your tube could be filled the same way the tubes of most pop-pop boats are and heat could be provided by a butane fired candle lighter with a flexible tube that could reach into the bow. Use Google Images to search for candle lighters and you will see several gadgets that might be used.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > Frank.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > Please check out the new "concept" pictures in my album. They are a bit rough, but I would like some feedback, and to know what you think. This design is, as you can see a single tube. My theory being to get the heat, somehow into the stem of the bow. the hull form kind of creates its own seal in the integrated tube running the length of the vessel and does not show externally. I think it looks kind of neat for initial concept ideas. My concerns are getting enough water into the bow to generate steam and how to get the heat there in the first place. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Could it be described as a popless, boatless pop pop boat? As esentially it is a motor formed to float. Lets hope we can figure out some method of firing it. The design as it stands would require sealing so will be seperate to my solderless and glueless project.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > Many thanks and best regards.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > Tim
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@ > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > Hi Tim,
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > I used one of your photos for the latest home page picture because it suggests the possibility for using your version of a plate coil as an integral part of the hull for a pop-pop boat of the not much popping type. This might be done by putting a shroud over part of the plate coil and squirting flame from a butane lighter or torch under one end. The other end might be attached to a smokestack to provide air circulation.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > Best wishes and a big thank you,
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > Old Frank
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > > I have posted some new pictures in my album "Tims pop pop pictures" of a result from my trials in making tubes. It is a motor that requires no glue or solder. The aluminium one was utterly pathetic and I had to really get it crispy hot to get anything from it, as can be seen in the pictures. The steel ones all performed adequately, but in some the pop was intermittent and others none at all. Creasing and wiggling the end changed the pop, or gave it a pop, or took it away. Pot luck really. The shorter motor worked but had little power. I have found with testing all of them that the motor has more power with the tubes just under the surface and with the motor at a shallow angle. I had best results with two vegetable oil flames under it but tea light power worked as well. Single flame power worked but had not as much thrust. The one with the straws seemed to have more power but needed glue of course. I just wanted to see what happened.
                                            > Originally the straws were full length and I tried different lengths just for the fun of it. The one that has been deformed at the end was to test different popping attributes and varying the "boiler" volume a bit. Tools and materials to make them are preferably a steel drinks can, scissors, pliers and a pair of chopsticks. And gloves of course! I found that I get more pop if the chopsticks are not pushed in so far when forming, leaving the end almost flat, but more power when they are pushed right up to the end, giving a higher boiler volume, but no pop. The whole thing pulsates and wiggles when running and is amusing and rather fascinating to watch. I had one that had a small leak and it was drying out. It suddenly decided to suck in some water and launched itself out of the test bowl! It has been a fun process to design make and test these things.
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > > Tim
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • David Halfpenny
                                            ... From: frankmcneilll ... That s an interesting device that dates back well over a century, though serious interest started only
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 25, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --------------------------------------------------
                                              From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...>

                                              > there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at
                                              > http://tinyurl.com/nocmth that I would buy if I was twenty years younger
                                              > and a whole lot richer.
                                              >
                                              That's an interesting device that dates back well over a century, though
                                              serious interest started only about 40 years ago. The promoter on the video
                                              has a keen sense of its potential usefulness.

                                              I first came across one of these engines at a model engineering exhibition.
                                              I stopped instantly because it looked so obviously "wrong" yet it was
                                              running sweet as a nut. The builder said he'd followed a plan and had no
                                              idea how it worked. It only took me two minutes to work it out, and only
                                              one sentence to tell him. [Leaving me thinking WHY didn't I think of that?]


                                              The traditional Heat Engine uses a 'working fluid' (such as air or steam or
                                              refrigerant) to collect energy from a Hot Place, give up some of it as
                                              Mechanical Work, and dump the waste at a Cold Place.
                                              Or you can drive it backwards with some kind of motor, and pump heat
                                              into the Hot Place and out of the Cold Place, which then becomes a
                                              convenient spot to keep Beer.

                                              As a motor:
                                              - a small pot of cool air absorbs energy when heated, which raises its
                                              pressure
                                              - the compressed air is allowed to expand, giving up some of that energy as
                                              mechanical effort
                                              - the expanded air is allowed to dump the rest of the heat energy
                                              - the cooled air is squeezed back into the heating pot, warming it up a
                                              bit.

                                              The original 1816 Stirling engine shuttled the air about using two pistons
                                              working in syncopation. That means that when one was moving, the other was
                                              still, and vice versa. That kind of motion is called 'Out of Phase' for
                                              short. An air-tight Power Piston drives the flywheel while a loose-fit
                                              Displacer piston busies itself moving the air from where it is now to where
                                              it needs to be next. This syncopation is fundamental to the Heat Engine
                                              cycle.

                                              In any acoustic resonance, the Pressure in the air is Out of Phase with its
                                              movement.

                                              The Thermo-acoustic engine uses acoustic resonance as the Displacer that
                                              shifts air between hot and cold parts of the engine, Out of Phase with the
                                              pressure on its Power Piston.


                                              The pop-pop engine is clearly very like that:
                                              - the bubble of air+steam inside is the Working Fluid
                                              - the bubble's changes in size are the Displacer
                                              - the plug of water pushed in an out is the Power Piston.

                                              Our evidence is strong: the movement of the water is obvious and a
                                              diaphragm makes the pressure fluctuations audible.

                                              We have established some obvious things:
                                              - the action is a fixed-frequency cycle
                                              - the frequency is too low to be resonance in air, steam or water in a tube
                                              that length, so it must be resonance of a plug of water bouncing on the
                                              bubble of air+steam
                                              - the pressure changes can't be large, but the Pop shows they ain't mere
                                              fairy's kisses either

                                              But compared with a classic thermo-acoustic engine, it is much harder to do
                                              the calculations because:
                                              - the size and springiness of the internal bubble is constantly changing as
                                              water boils and condenses
                                              - the mass of the piston is also constantly changing as the size of the
                                              bubble changes
                                              - let's face it, we don't actually know how big a good 'working' bubble is!

                                              We are deducing a Pop-Pop cycle like this:
                                              - when the plug of water is inboard, the bubble is absorbing heat energy
                                              and its pressure is rising
                                              - the bubble get larger as water boils, and also the gases in it expand
                                              - the enlarging bubble forces water out of the tube, transmitting
                                              mechanical energy to the moving boat
                                              - expanding the bubble both cools it and leads some of it to cooler parts
                                              of the tube
                                              - the bubble gives up its waste heat to the tube and the water
                                              - the bubble shrinks as the steam condenses and the air contracts
                                              - air pressure drives water back up the tube, and its inertia further
                                              compresses the bubble.

                                              That is the same classic Heat Engine cycle that has been used in industry
                                              for three centuries and has been well understood for more than half that
                                              time. But . . .

                                              some of the things that I don't yet fully understand are:

                                              - the role of the trapped air
                                              - is it needed at all?
                                              - is its heating and consequent expansion vital?
                                              - or is it just a spring, and would it work if kept cool?

                                              - how to get the right amount of trapped air, and how to keep it right
                                              given that air dissolves in - and un-dissolves from - water very easily

                                              - the role of the diaphragm - it clearly isn't essential, but can it be
                                              useful?

                                              - the ideal place to extract the bulk of the waste heat:
                                              - the part of the tube in air?
                                              - the part of the tube in water?
                                              - the water itself?

                                              - whether the enhanced performance of flatter tubes arises at the Hot end,
                                              or Cold end, or Both

                                              - how far down the tube the optimum bubble (neither too big nor too small)
                                              should come

                                              - would an extra, unheated, bubble help or hinder

                                              - the exact Phase relationship between pressure and water movement (I'm
                                              guessing the Click comes before the Spurt, followed by the Clack coming
                                              before the Suck).

                                              - the effects of raising (or lowering) the resonant frequency


                                              That's an awful lot to not understand about something so simple, and I've
                                              not even started on Scaling the size, heat input or temperature yet!

                                              This is a wonderful corner of engineering where the apparatus is even
                                              within the grasp of poor Indian villagers, yet there are still fundamental
                                              discoveries to be made.

                                              David 1/2d
                                            • frankmcneilll
                                              ... Hi David, Isn t it remarkable that it is easier to understand how an automobile engine works than a pop-pop engine with no moving parts? There must be some
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 25, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --------------------------------------------------
                                                > From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...>
                                                >
                                                > > there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at
                                                > > http://tinyurl.com/nocmth that I would buy if I was twenty years younger
                                                > > and a whole lot richer.
                                                > >
                                                > That's an interesting device that dates back well over a century, though
                                                > serious interest started only about 40 years ago. The promoter on the video
                                                > has a keen sense of its potential usefulness.
                                                >
                                                > I first came across one of these engines at a model engineering exhibition.
                                                > I stopped instantly because it looked so obviously "wrong" yet it was
                                                > running sweet as a nut. The builder said he'd followed a plan and had no
                                                > idea how it worked. It only took me two minutes to work it out, and only
                                                > one sentence to tell him. [Leaving me thinking WHY didn't I think of that?]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The traditional Heat Engine uses a 'working fluid' (such as air or steam or
                                                > refrigerant) to collect energy from a Hot Place, give up some of it as
                                                > Mechanical Work, and dump the waste at a Cold Place.
                                                > Or you can drive it backwards with some kind of motor, and pump heat
                                                > into the Hot Place and out of the Cold Place, which then becomes a
                                                > convenient spot to keep Beer.
                                                >
                                                > As a motor:
                                                > - a small pot of cool air absorbs energy when heated, which raises its
                                                > pressure
                                                > - the compressed air is allowed to expand, giving up some of that energy as
                                                > mechanical effort
                                                > - the expanded air is allowed to dump the rest of the heat energy
                                                > - the cooled air is squeezed back into the heating pot, warming it up a
                                                > bit.
                                                >
                                                > The original 1816 Stirling engine shuttled the air about using two pistons
                                                > working in syncopation. That means that when one was moving, the other was
                                                > still, and vice versa. That kind of motion is called 'Out of Phase' for
                                                > short. An air-tight Power Piston drives the flywheel while a loose-fit
                                                > Displacer piston busies itself moving the air from where it is now to where
                                                > it needs to be next. This syncopation is fundamental to the Heat Engine
                                                > cycle.
                                                >
                                                > In any acoustic resonance, the Pressure in the air is Out of Phase with its
                                                > movement.
                                                >
                                                > The Thermo-acoustic engine uses acoustic resonance as the Displacer that
                                                > shifts air between hot and cold parts of the engine, Out of Phase with the
                                                > pressure on its Power Piston.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The pop-pop engine is clearly very like that:
                                                > - the bubble of air+steam inside is the Working Fluid
                                                > - the bubble's changes in size are the Displacer
                                                > - the plug of water pushed in an out is the Power Piston.
                                                >
                                                > Our evidence is strong: the movement of the water is obvious and a
                                                > diaphragm makes the pressure fluctuations audible.
                                                >
                                                > We have established some obvious things:
                                                > - the action is a fixed-frequency cycle
                                                > - the frequency is too low to be resonance in air, steam or water in a tube
                                                > that length, so it must be resonance of a plug of water bouncing on the
                                                > bubble of air+steam
                                                > - the pressure changes can't be large, but the Pop shows they ain't mere
                                                > fairy's kisses either
                                                >
                                                > But compared with a classic thermo-acoustic engine, it is much harder to do
                                                > the calculations because:
                                                > - the size and springiness of the internal bubble is constantly changing as
                                                > water boils and condenses
                                                > - the mass of the piston is also constantly changing as the size of the
                                                > bubble changes
                                                > - let's face it, we don't actually know how big a good 'working' bubble is!
                                                >
                                                > We are deducing a Pop-Pop cycle like this:
                                                > - when the plug of water is inboard, the bubble is absorbing heat energy
                                                > and its pressure is rising
                                                > - the bubble get larger as water boils, and also the gases in it expand
                                                > - the enlarging bubble forces water out of the tube, transmitting
                                                > mechanical energy to the moving boat
                                                > - expanding the bubble both cools it and leads some of it to cooler parts
                                                > of the tube
                                                > - the bubble gives up its waste heat to the tube and the water
                                                > - the bubble shrinks as the steam condenses and the air contracts
                                                > - air pressure drives water back up the tube, and its inertia further
                                                > compresses the bubble.
                                                >
                                                > That is the same classic Heat Engine cycle that has been used in industry
                                                > for three centuries and has been well understood for more than half that
                                                > time. But . . .
                                                >
                                                > some of the things that I don't yet fully understand are:
                                                >
                                                > - the role of the trapped air
                                                > - is it needed at all?
                                                > - is its heating and consequent expansion vital?
                                                > - or is it just a spring, and would it work if kept cool?
                                                >
                                                > - how to get the right amount of trapped air, and how to keep it right
                                                > given that air dissolves in - and un-dissolves from - water very easily
                                                >
                                                > - the role of the diaphragm - it clearly isn't essential, but can it be
                                                > useful?
                                                >
                                                > - the ideal place to extract the bulk of the waste heat:
                                                > - the part of the tube in air?
                                                > - the part of the tube in water?
                                                > - the water itself?
                                                >
                                                > - whether the enhanced performance of flatter tubes arises at the Hot end,
                                                > or Cold end, or Both
                                                >
                                                > - how far down the tube the optimum bubble (neither too big nor too small)
                                                > should come
                                                >
                                                > - would an extra, unheated, bubble help or hinder
                                                >
                                                > - the exact Phase relationship between pressure and water movement (I'm
                                                > guessing the Click comes before the Spurt, followed by the Clack coming
                                                > before the Suck).
                                                >
                                                > - the effects of raising (or lowering) the resonant frequency
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > That's an awful lot to not understand about something so simple, and I've
                                                > not even started on Scaling the size, heat input or temperature yet!
                                                >
                                                > This is a wonderful corner of engineering where the apparatus is even
                                                > within the grasp of poor Indian villagers, yet there are still fundamental
                                                > discoveries to be made.
                                                >
                                                > David 1/2d
                                                >

                                                Hi David,

                                                Isn't it remarkable that it is easier to understand how an automobile engine works than a pop-pop engine with no moving parts? There must be some kind of universal principle that covers it.

                                                Best wishes, Frank
                                              • Tim
                                                Hi Frank. My opinion from my trails today is because the pop pop motor can truly be an Infernal combustion engine. Tomorow is another day. Tim
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 25, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Frank.

                                                  My opinion from my trails today is because the pop pop motor can truly be an "Infernal" combustion engine. Tomorow is another day.

                                                  Tim

                                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > there is an excellent example of precision acoustics at
                                                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/nocmth that I would buy if I was twenty years younger
                                                  > > > and a whole lot richer.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > That's an interesting device that dates back well over a century, though
                                                  > > serious interest started only about 40 years ago. The promoter on the video
                                                  > > has a keen sense of its potential usefulness.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I first came across one of these engines at a model engineering exhibition.
                                                  > > I stopped instantly because it looked so obviously "wrong" yet it was
                                                  > > running sweet as a nut. The builder said he'd followed a plan and had no
                                                  > > idea how it worked. It only took me two minutes to work it out, and only
                                                  > > one sentence to tell him. [Leaving me thinking WHY didn't I think of that?]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The traditional Heat Engine uses a 'working fluid' (such as air or steam or
                                                  > > refrigerant) to collect energy from a Hot Place, give up some of it as
                                                  > > Mechanical Work, and dump the waste at a Cold Place.
                                                  > > Or you can drive it backwards with some kind of motor, and pump heat
                                                  > > into the Hot Place and out of the Cold Place, which then becomes a
                                                  > > convenient spot to keep Beer.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > As a motor:
                                                  > > - a small pot of cool air absorbs energy when heated, which raises its
                                                  > > pressure
                                                  > > - the compressed air is allowed to expand, giving up some of that energy as
                                                  > > mechanical effort
                                                  > > - the expanded air is allowed to dump the rest of the heat energy
                                                  > > - the cooled air is squeezed back into the heating pot, warming it up a
                                                  > > bit.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The original 1816 Stirling engine shuttled the air about using two pistons
                                                  > > working in syncopation. That means that when one was moving, the other was
                                                  > > still, and vice versa. That kind of motion is called 'Out of Phase' for
                                                  > > short. An air-tight Power Piston drives the flywheel while a loose-fit
                                                  > > Displacer piston busies itself moving the air from where it is now to where
                                                  > > it needs to be next. This syncopation is fundamental to the Heat Engine
                                                  > > cycle.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In any acoustic resonance, the Pressure in the air is Out of Phase with its
                                                  > > movement.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Thermo-acoustic engine uses acoustic resonance as the Displacer that
                                                  > > shifts air between hot and cold parts of the engine, Out of Phase with the
                                                  > > pressure on its Power Piston.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The pop-pop engine is clearly very like that:
                                                  > > - the bubble of air+steam inside is the Working Fluid
                                                  > > - the bubble's changes in size are the Displacer
                                                  > > - the plug of water pushed in an out is the Power Piston.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Our evidence is strong: the movement of the water is obvious and a
                                                  > > diaphragm makes the pressure fluctuations audible.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We have established some obvious things:
                                                  > > - the action is a fixed-frequency cycle
                                                  > > - the frequency is too low to be resonance in air, steam or water in a tube
                                                  > > that length, so it must be resonance of a plug of water bouncing on the
                                                  > > bubble of air+steam
                                                  > > - the pressure changes can't be large, but the Pop shows they ain't mere
                                                  > > fairy's kisses either
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But compared with a classic thermo-acoustic engine, it is much harder to do
                                                  > > the calculations because:
                                                  > > - the size and springiness of the internal bubble is constantly changing as
                                                  > > water boils and condenses
                                                  > > - the mass of the piston is also constantly changing as the size of the
                                                  > > bubble changes
                                                  > > - let's face it, we don't actually know how big a good 'working' bubble is!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We are deducing a Pop-Pop cycle like this:
                                                  > > - when the plug of water is inboard, the bubble is absorbing heat energy
                                                  > > and its pressure is rising
                                                  > > - the bubble get larger as water boils, and also the gases in it expand
                                                  > > - the enlarging bubble forces water out of the tube, transmitting
                                                  > > mechanical energy to the moving boat
                                                  > > - expanding the bubble both cools it and leads some of it to cooler parts
                                                  > > of the tube
                                                  > > - the bubble gives up its waste heat to the tube and the water
                                                  > > - the bubble shrinks as the steam condenses and the air contracts
                                                  > > - air pressure drives water back up the tube, and its inertia further
                                                  > > compresses the bubble.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > That is the same classic Heat Engine cycle that has been used in industry
                                                  > > for three centuries and has been well understood for more than half that
                                                  > > time. But . . .
                                                  > >
                                                  > > some of the things that I don't yet fully understand are:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - the role of the trapped air
                                                  > > - is it needed at all?
                                                  > > - is its heating and consequent expansion vital?
                                                  > > - or is it just a spring, and would it work if kept cool?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - how to get the right amount of trapped air, and how to keep it right
                                                  > > given that air dissolves in - and un-dissolves from - water very easily
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - the role of the diaphragm - it clearly isn't essential, but can it be
                                                  > > useful?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - the ideal place to extract the bulk of the waste heat:
                                                  > > - the part of the tube in air?
                                                  > > - the part of the tube in water?
                                                  > > - the water itself?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - whether the enhanced performance of flatter tubes arises at the Hot end,
                                                  > > or Cold end, or Both
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - how far down the tube the optimum bubble (neither too big nor too small)
                                                  > > should come
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - would an extra, unheated, bubble help or hinder
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - the exact Phase relationship between pressure and water movement (I'm
                                                  > > guessing the Click comes before the Spurt, followed by the Clack coming
                                                  > > before the Suck).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - the effects of raising (or lowering) the resonant frequency
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > That's an awful lot to not understand about something so simple, and I've
                                                  > > not even started on Scaling the size, heat input or temperature yet!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > This is a wonderful corner of engineering where the apparatus is even
                                                  > > within the grasp of poor Indian villagers, yet there are still fundamental
                                                  > > discoveries to be made.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > David 1/2d
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi David,
                                                  >
                                                  > Isn't it remarkable that it is easier to understand how an automobile engine works than a pop-pop engine with no moving parts? There must be some kind of universal principle that covers it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Best wishes, Frank
                                                  >
                                                • David Halfpenny
                                                  ... From: frankmcneilll Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 9:32 PM ... There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea,
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 25, 2009
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                                                    --------------------------------------------------
                                                    From: "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...>
                                                    Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 9:32 PM

                                                    > Isn't it remarkable that it is easier to understand how an automobile
                                                    > engine works than a pop-pop engine with no moving parts? There must be
                                                    > some kind of universal principle that covers it.

                                                    There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I
                                                    know not:
                                                    - The way of an eagle in the air
                                                    - the way of a serpent upon a rock
                                                    - the way of a ship in the midst of the sea
                                                    - and the way of a man with a maid.

                                                    Proverbs 30


                                                    We've learned a bit more about flight and naval architecture in the last 3
                                                    000 years, and only recent discovered how snakes "walk" on their ribs, but
                                                    alas Prince Charming and the Pop-Pop remain inscrutable.

                                                    David 1/2d
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