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Making steel tubes from a drinks can.

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  • epikflyer
    Hi. I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel sheet,
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 11, 2009
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      Hi.

      I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel sheet, presumably from recycled cans. I can feel, and see defined lip all the way along the tubes, which are 6mm in diameter, and there is a small seam overlap of approximately 2 mm, although I did not nice it until I scrutinized it more closely. The pipes are not entirely circular in profile but the motor works very well and is very light. Much lighter than what I have been making from Copper pipe and sheet, and of thinner wall thickness. I can not see any evidence of soldering. Although very simple, I can not for the life of me fathom out how ingeniously this engine was put together with the materials used, and the quality of the workmanship is fantastic.

      To sum up. Does anybody have any ideas of how to make steel tube from drinks cans, that can,or has been formed into shape. They do not appear to have been annealed, or in the process of construction, are totally work hardened. In any case they are very rigid and solid in construction.

      Any advice or information offered would be greatly appreciated.

      Many thanks.

      Tim
    • zoomkat
      I ve noticed the same for the pipes on the Indian boats. I ve seen video of the third world soldering and they often use heavy tipped irons heated in a
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 11, 2009
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        I've noticed the same for the pipes on the Indian boats. I've seen video of the third world soldering and they often use heavy tipped irons heated in a charcoal fire. Using metal food cans is not too easy. Finding thin cheap uncoated steel is a challange. Craft stores have some interesting stuff in the stained glass sections. They have solder (~$13/lb) and soldering irons. They also have very thin metal sheets and strips in that section that might be useful and easily soldered. For my can lid soldering I used a 150 watt pistol type soldering gun and a butane micro torch I got at Harbor Freight on sale for ~$6 (good deal).

        http://www.mcgillswarehouse.com/ProductList.aspx?GroupID=11112

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi.
        >
        > I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel sheet, presumably from recycled cans. I can feel, and see defined lip all the way along the tubes, which are 6mm in diameter, and there is a small seam overlap of approximately 2 mm, although I did not nice it until I scrutinized it more closely. The pipes are not entirely circular in profile but the motor works very well and is very light. Much lighter than what I have been making from Copper pipe and sheet, and of thinner wall thickness. I can not see any evidence of soldering. Although very simple, I can not for the life of me fathom out how ingeniously this engine was put together with the materials used, and the quality of the workmanship is fantastic.
        >
        > To sum up. Does anybody have any ideas of how to make steel tube from drinks cans, that can,or has been formed into shape. They do not appear to have been annealed, or in the process of construction, are totally work hardened. In any case they are very rigid and solid in construction.
        >
        > Any advice or information offered would be greatly appreciated.
        >
        > Many thanks.
        >
        > Tim
        >
      • Arno
        Yes,those people from India know how to do proper metal working.Could you,maybe,put some pics of this engine in your folder(yes,yet more homework for
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 11, 2009
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          Yes,those people from India know how to do proper metal working.Could
          you,maybe,put some pics of this engine in your folder(yes,yet more
          homework for you..)I'll try to make some tubes out of steel sheet
          tomorrow to see how easy(or not)this is........

          best wishes,Arno

          epikflyer wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi.
          >
          > I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other
          > than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel
          > sheet, presumably from recycled cans. I can feel, and see defined lip
          > all the way along the tubes, which are 6mm in diameter, and there is a
          > small seam overlap of approximately 2 mm, although I did not nice it
          > until I scrutinized it more closely. The pipes are not entirely
          > circular in profile but the motor works very well and is very light.
          > Much lighter than what I have been making from Copper pipe and sheet,
          > and of thinner wall thickness. I can not see any evidence of
          > soldering. Although very simple, I can not for the life of me fathom
          > out how ingeniously this engine was put together with the materials
          > used, and the quality of the workmanship is fantastic.
          >
          > To sum up. Does anybody have any ideas of how to make steel tube from
          > drinks cans, that can,or has been formed into shape. They do not
          > appear to have been annealed, or in the process of construction, are
          > totally work hardened. In any case they are very rigid and solid in
          > construction.
          >
          > Any advice or information offered would be greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Many thanks.
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
        • David Halfpenny
          ... From: zoomkat Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:49 PM ... The cames that hold glass together were traditionally lead because it s
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 11, 2009
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            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
            Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:49 PM

            > Craft stores have some interesting stuff in the stained glass sections.
            > They have solder (~$13/lb) and soldering irons. They also have very thin
            > metal sheets and strips in that section that might be useful and easily
            > soldered.

            The cames that hold glass together were traditionally lead because it's
            soft enough to bend over to hold the glass. I imagine an alternative is
            used these days, but extreme softness is of the essence still.

            For my can lid soldering I used a 150 watt pistol type soldering gun and a
            butane micro torch I got at Harbor Freight on sale for ~$6 (good deal).

            There's something important about soldering tips - heat Output is utterly
            different from power Input.

            Basically the power rating of an iron determines how fast it heats up. But
            what counts or soldering is how fast it cools down on the joint.

            I like the instant solder guns - the tiny tip has a very small heat
            capacity and therefore reaches soldering temperature very quickly. But by
            the same token it cools instantly too. It's fine for a small joint, after
            which is has to fall back on its electric supply of only 150W - heck I've
            got lamp bulbs more powerful!

            A 150W glazier's iron can solder a lot bigger joint before it goes cool
            because the big tip stores lots more heat. OK it's the same power, and the
            tradeoff is that it takes a great deal longer to reheat after making the
            joint.

            An Indian copper bit has a huge heat capacity. It can carry on putting heat
            into your joint a great deal longer, which is what you need for a long
            seam, and why there is still one in my toolbox.

            Not knocking the solder gun - just saying which way to go once you hit the
            limitation.

            David 1/2d
          • darylcanada73
            I ll throw in my 2 Cents worth on soldering though others have covered most of it. Lead free solder and it s companion flux from hardware/plumbing stores works
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 12, 2009
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              I'll throw in my 2 Cents worth on soldering though others have covered most of it.

              Lead free solder and it's companion flux from hardware/plumbing stores works good for me.
              Cans here solder fine if sanded bright though not all require sanding.
              Tinning is worth the bit extra work I think, especially for lap joins, and then you also know for sure that the solder will stick well.
              An open flame on tin often gives problems. I don't do it.
              I make my own soldering tips from copper wire. Has to be one solid piece to work well. Thick wire for lots of heat. Thin for not so much heat.

              Re silver brazing: Map gas works fine. Difficult on thin tin/steel and stainless steel as it is very easy to get the tin too hot and burned before the solder melts. Use lots of flux allways and coat a larger area than just the part you are brazing. This protects the metal some what and the excess flux will mostly disolve in water after and that is easier than cleaning blackened burned metal. Try to keep the open flame away from the actual area you are soldering. ie Heat from the outside when possible. On tin you might have to hit the solder at the last minute with direct flame to melt it and get it flowing. If you cannot buy really thin silver wire, hammer it flat and then cut thinner strips which will melt a bit easier.

              Alloy solders are available that melt at a higher temp than what is normally available. These can help if your engine is melting and you just need a bit more heat and don't want to get into silver brazing. I was never able to find small quantities for sale either locally or on line. Maybe you can.



              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------
              > From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
              > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:49 PM
              >
              > > Craft stores have some interesting stuff in the stained glass sections.
              > > They have solder (~$13/lb) and soldering irons. They also have very thin
              > > metal sheets and strips in that section that might be useful and easily
              > > soldered.
              >
              > The cames that hold glass together were traditionally lead because it's
              > soft enough to bend over to hold the glass. I imagine an alternative is
              > used these days, but extreme softness is of the essence still.
              >
              > For my can lid soldering I used a 150 watt pistol type soldering gun and a
              > butane micro torch I got at Harbor Freight on sale for ~$6 (good deal).
              >
              > There's something important about soldering tips - heat Output is utterly
              > different from power Input.
              >
              > Basically the power rating of an iron determines how fast it heats up. But
              > what counts or soldering is how fast it cools down on the joint.
              >
              > I like the instant solder guns - the tiny tip has a very small heat
              > capacity and therefore reaches soldering temperature very quickly. But by
              > the same token it cools instantly too. It's fine for a small joint, after
              > which is has to fall back on its electric supply of only 150W - heck I've
              > got lamp bulbs more powerful!
              >
              > A 150W glazier's iron can solder a lot bigger joint before it goes cool
              > because the big tip stores lots more heat. OK it's the same power, and the
              > tradeoff is that it takes a great deal longer to reheat after making the
              > joint.
              >
              > An Indian copper bit has a huge heat capacity. It can carry on putting heat
              > into your joint a great deal longer, which is what you need for a long
              > seam, and why there is still one in my toolbox.
              >
              > Not knocking the solder gun - just saying which way to go once you hit the
              > limitation.
              >
              > David 1/2d
              >
            • epikflyer
              Thank you for your ideas and advice gentlemen. I will do some experimentation at some time. In the meantime if you have any further thoughts or have a go at
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 12, 2009
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                Thank you for your ideas and advice gentlemen. I will do some experimentation at some time. In the meantime if you have any further thoughts or have a go at making some, please let me know how you got on. I have a lot of things on the go at the moment. I will get some pictures in my album sometime over the weekend though. I am going to make another diaphragm motor today and take some step by step pictures of its construction.

                Many thanks.

                Tim

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------
                > From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
                > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:49 PM
                >
                > > Craft stores have some interesting stuff in the stained glass sections.
                > > They have solder (~$13/lb) and soldering irons. They also have very thin
                > > metal sheets and strips in that section that might be useful and easily
                > > soldered.
                >
                > The cames that hold glass together were traditionally lead because it's
                > soft enough to bend over to hold the glass. I imagine an alternative is
                > used these days, but extreme softness is of the essence still.
                >
                > For my can lid soldering I used a 150 watt pistol type soldering gun and a
                > butane micro torch I got at Harbor Freight on sale for ~$6 (good deal).
                >
                > There's something important about soldering tips - heat Output is utterly
                > different from power Input.
                >
                > Basically the power rating of an iron determines how fast it heats up. But
                > what counts or soldering is how fast it cools down on the joint.
                >
                > I like the instant solder guns - the tiny tip has a very small heat
                > capacity and therefore reaches soldering temperature very quickly. But by
                > the same token it cools instantly too. It's fine for a small joint, after
                > which is has to fall back on its electric supply of only 150W - heck I've
                > got lamp bulbs more powerful!
                >
                > A 150W glazier's iron can solder a lot bigger joint before it goes cool
                > because the big tip stores lots more heat. OK it's the same power, and the
                > tradeoff is that it takes a great deal longer to reheat after making the
                > joint.
                >
                > An Indian copper bit has a huge heat capacity. It can carry on putting heat
                > into your joint a great deal longer, which is what you need for a long
                > seam, and why there is still one in my toolbox.
                >
                > Not knocking the solder gun - just saying which way to go once you hit the
                > limitation.
                >
                > David 1/2d
                >
              • epikflyer
                Hi all. I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. Tim s pop pop pictures . The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 12, 2009
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                  Hi all.

                  I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.

                  Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

                  Many thanks.

                  Tim


                  ..--- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for your ideas and advice gentlemen. I will do some experimentation at some time. In the meantime if you have any further thoughts or have a go at making some, please let me know how you got on. I have a lot of things on the go at the moment. I will get some pictures in my album sometime over the weekend though. I am going to make another diaphragm motor today and take some step by step pictures of its construction.
                  >
                  > Many thanks.
                  >
                  > Tim
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                  > > From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@>
                  > > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:49 PM
                  > >
                  > > > Craft stores have some interesting stuff in the stained glass sections.
                  > > > They have solder (~$13/lb) and soldering irons. They also have very thin
                  > > > metal sheets and strips in that section that might be useful and easily
                  > > > soldered.
                  > >
                  > > The cames that hold glass together were traditionally lead because it's
                  > > soft enough to bend over to hold the glass. I imagine an alternative is
                  > > used these days, but extreme softness is of the essence still.
                  > >
                  > > For my can lid soldering I used a 150 watt pistol type soldering gun and a
                  > > butane micro torch I got at Harbor Freight on sale for ~$6 (good deal).
                  > >
                  > > There's something important about soldering tips - heat Output is utterly
                  > > different from power Input.
                  > >
                  > > Basically the power rating of an iron determines how fast it heats up. But
                  > > what counts or soldering is how fast it cools down on the joint.
                  > >
                  > > I like the instant solder guns - the tiny tip has a very small heat
                  > > capacity and therefore reaches soldering temperature very quickly. But by
                  > > the same token it cools instantly too. It's fine for a small joint, after
                  > > which is has to fall back on its electric supply of only 150W - heck I've
                  > > got lamp bulbs more powerful!
                  > >
                  > > A 150W glazier's iron can solder a lot bigger joint before it goes cool
                  > > because the big tip stores lots more heat. OK it's the same power, and the
                  > > tradeoff is that it takes a great deal longer to reheat after making the
                  > > joint.
                  > >
                  > > An Indian copper bit has a huge heat capacity. It can carry on putting heat
                  > > into your joint a great deal longer, which is what you need for a long
                  > > seam, and why there is still one in my toolbox.
                  > >
                  > > Not knocking the solder gun - just saying which way to go once you hit the
                  > > limitation.
                  > >
                  > > David 1/2d
                  > >
                  >
                • zoomkat
                  Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005 brass sheet from the local
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 14, 2009
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                    Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi all.
                    >
                    > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                    >
                    > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                    >
                    > Many thanks.
                    >
                    > Tim
                  • epikflyer
                    Hi Zoomkat. Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
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                      Hi Zoomkat.

                      Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.

                      I will let you know how I get on.

                      Cheers.

                      Tim

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi all.
                      > >
                      > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                      > >
                      > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                      > >
                      > > Many thanks.
                      > >
                      > > Tim
                      >
                    • darylcanada73
                      Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1 wide x 1/8 x 16 . That part is not too
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
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                        Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????

                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Zoomkat.
                        >
                        > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                        >
                        > I will let you know how I get on.
                        >
                        > Cheers.
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                        > >
                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi all.
                        > > >
                        > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                        > > >
                        > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                        > > >
                        > > > Many thanks.
                        > > >
                        > > > Tim
                        > >
                        >
                      • frankmcneilll
                        Hi All, This is probably the first time that any of my notions have almost coincided with current discussion topics. Yesterday I started adding home page
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
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                          Hi All,

                          This is probably the first time that any of my notions have almost coincided with current discussion topics. Yesterday I started adding home page pictures and sketches related to notions for pictures to a brochure in the photos section.
                          Jean-Yves saw the sketch and sent a photo of a similar arrangement for using a pop-pop engine to turn a paddle wheel. I replied that Daryl had posted video of a pop-pop paddle wheeler cruising around in his test basin and that Pete had asked him to build a pop-pop side wheeler.
                          The sketch Jean-Yves saw was intended to suggest the possibility for using flattened or rectangular tubing which could be formed around ceramic pegs inserted into holes in a pegboard. Flattened tubing might be assembled by wrapping alternate layers of sheet metal around the pegs. The metal layers would need to be "tinned" in advance, probably with silver solder.

                          Best wishes, Frank




                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Zoomkat.
                          > >
                          > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                          > >
                          > > I will let you know how I get on.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers.
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > >
                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi all.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Many thanks.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tim
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • jeanyves_renaud
                          Hi Daryl, Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
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                            Hi Daryl,
                            Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.

                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Zoomkat.
                            > >
                            > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                            > >
                            > > I will let you know how I get on.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers.
                            > >
                            > > Tim
                            > >
                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hi all.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Many thanks.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tim
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • frankmcneilll
                            OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper From NASA s Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
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                              OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper

                              From NASA's Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as strong as steel combines 3-M's ceramic paper with aluminum.
                              3-M's paper can withstand temps up to 2500° F compared with aluminum ejovl melts at about 1220 °F- so maybe composite tubes as strong as steel could be produced by wrapping 3-M's ceramic paper around a ceramic rod and dunking it in molten aluminum. If that worked maybe composite hulls, decks. etc. could be produced in about the same way.


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Daryl,
                              > Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                              > > >
                              > > > I will let you know how I get on.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers.
                              > > >
                              > > > Tim
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Hi all.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Many thanks.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Tim
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • epikflyer
                              Hi All. Frank s last reply triggered my memory of an amusing anecdote, that in turn spurred a memory that I would like to share with you. There is a popular
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi All.

                                Frank's last reply triggered my memory of an amusing anecdote, that in turn spurred a memory that I would like to share with you.

                                There is a popular myth that, in the space race of the 1960's, NASA spent 1.5 Million dollars in developing a pen, that would work in the vacuum of space. The Russians simply used a pencil. While this is partially untrue. (There have been developments of ball point pens that work in a vacuum for some reason, though not developed by NASA).

                                It served to remind me that while design, technology and advanced materials can be valuable in constructing high technology, with perhaps a huge development team behind it. That there is some guy in a shack, or under a palm tree in India or Bangladesh, with little or no education, and precious few resources, but huge quantities of talent and ingenuity, that can not only make these engines well, but make a living at it.

                                My point is that while technology can be fascinating and pushes frontiers and boundaries. Sheer simplicity sometimes has much to tell us. The pop pop engine is a prime example. Much is not yet understood as to how to make the perfect and efficient pop pop engine. This is why, to some extent this group exists.

                                While there are limitless technological solutions, some as yet undiscovered, there has to be a simple solution. I must admit I did see as a child in Bangladesh, how the boats were made but I was just a boy and just wanted the toy to play with as soon as possible, and paid little or no interest in how they were made. I will be forever sorry I did not pay more attention at the time. I understandthat Sciencetoymaker aka Slater Harrison also has the same regrets, that he to did not have the chance to experience how the boats were made in the time we were in the country.

                                Many thanks for your valuable input gentlemen. I look forward to your further responses and input.

                                best regards.

                                Tim



                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper
                                >
                                > From NASA's Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as strong as steel combines 3-M's ceramic paper with aluminum.
                                > 3-M's paper can withstand temps up to 2500° F compared with aluminum ejovl melts at about 1220 °F- so maybe composite tubes as strong as steel could be produced by wrapping 3-M's ceramic paper around a ceramic rod and dunking it in molten aluminum. If that worked maybe composite hulls, decks. etc. could be produced in about the same way.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Daryl,
                                > > Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                                > >
                                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I will let you know how I get on.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Cheers.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Tim
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hi all.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Many thanks.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Tim
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • zoomkat
                                ... For bending round pipe one technique often used is to pack the inside of the pipe with something like sand. It supports the pipe from the inside and keeps
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 15, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????

                                  For bending round pipe one technique often used is to pack the inside of the pipe with something like sand. It supports the pipe from the inside and keeps it from kinking during the bend. Also selective heating on the outside of larger pipes can bend them. As to forming custom pipes, the pipe material can be layered on disolvable forms. Dr. Paul MacCready layered and bonded carbon fiber on to aluminum pipes, and then disolved the aluminum pipe in an acid bath to make super light weight carbon spars for his aircraft. If the pipe spends most of its time in a cooled environment, then the choise of materials is broader.
                                • Slater Harrison
                                  I know what you mean, Tim (RE: simplicity). When I was working on the pop pop design-all designs, in fact-I measure progress by how much I can simplify it. It
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 17, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    I know what you mean, Tim (RE: simplicity). When I was working on the pop pop design—all designs, in fact—I measure progress by how much I can simplify it. It almost seems counterintuitive that the simplest model is the most highly evolved but it happens every time. As Henry David Thoreau said, “Simplify, simplify, simplify!”

                                     

                                    Interesting, too, that pop pops largely went into hibernation in industrialized countries for decades after WWII but thrived in Indonesia, Mexico, South Asia (where I first encountered them).  A parallel thought: after the agricultural “Green Revolution” some of the superstar grain varieties were susceptible to fungus varieties that were difficult to control with fungicide. The botanists ended up scouring extremely remote, poor  villages in Third World countries where people still used “obsolete “ plant varieties. In these humble places they found resistant wheat and rice to breed resistance into the super varieties.

                                     

                                    Slater

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of epikflyer
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:13 PM
                                    To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Making steel tubes from a drinks can.

                                     

                                     

                                    Hi All.

                                    Frank's last reply triggered my memory of an amusing anecdote, that in turn spurred a memory that I would like to share with you.

                                    There is a popular myth that, in the space race of the 1960's, NASA spent 1.5 Million dollars in developing a pen, that would work in the vacuum of space. The Russians simply used a pencil. While this is partially untrue. (There have been developments of ball point pens that work in a vacuum for some reason, though not developed by NASA).

                                    It served to remind me that while design, technology and advanced materials can be valuable in constructing high technology, with perhaps a huge development team behind it. That there is some guy in a shack, or under a palm tree in India or Bangladesh, with little or no education, and precious few resources, but huge quantities of talent and ingenuity, that can not only make these engines well, but make a living at it.

                                    My point is that while technology can be fascinating and pushes frontiers and boundaries. Sheer simplicity sometimes has much to tell us. The pop pop engine is a prime example. Much is not yet understood as to how to make the perfect and efficient pop pop engine. This is why, to some extent this group exists.

                                    While there are limitless technological solutions, some as yet undiscovered, there has to be a simple solution. I must admit I did see as a child in Bangladesh, how the boats were made but I was just a boy and just wanted the toy to play with as soon as possible, and paid little or no interest in how they were made. I will be forever sorry I did not pay more attention at the time. I understandthat Sciencetoymaker aka Slater Harrison also has the same regrets, that he to did not have the chance to experience how the boats were made in the time we were in the country.

                                    Many thanks for your valuable input gentlemen. I look forward to your further responses and input.

                                    best regards.

                                    Tim

                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper
                                    >
                                    > From NASA's Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as strong as steel combines 3-M's ceramic paper with aluminum.
                                    > 3-M's paper can withstand temps up to 2500° F compared with aluminum ejovl melts at about 1220 °F- so maybe composite tubes as strong as steel could be produced by wrapping 3-M's ceramic paper around a ceramic rod and dunking it in molten aluminum. If that worked maybe composite hulls, decks. etc. could be produced in about the same way.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Daryl,
                                    > > Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I will let you know how I get on.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Cheers.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tim
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Hi all.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Many thanks.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Tim
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >



                                    This message, together with any attachments, may contain information which is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message, along with any attachments.


                                  • Tim
                                    Hi Slater. I have been very inspired by what I have found on this group since your introduction via youtube. I am in the process of doing some instructions of
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 17, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Slater.

                                      I have been very inspired by what I have found on this group since your introduction via youtube. I am in the process of doing some instructions of Mr. Jean-Yves diaphragm motor instructions, that I have managed to work out a way of not needing any tooling to make. Also I have spent some time working out a hull for the motor. I took yours as a starting point and have worked out a way of making a similar looking hull, from a rectangle cut from a drinks can. It does not need any cutting out of a pattern, just a 120x200 rectangle, and no need for glue. I cut my hands to ribbons in many many attempts to achieve it, and I now have a hull that if I am more carefull with the measurements and construction, will be watertight. My latest effort only had a small droplet of water in the bow after an hour. It has safe edges all round when finished, but can be quite nasty while making it. The only tools used are a rule, scissors and pliers. Adding a deck and other nice things could be tricky because of them. I will be puting the instructions on here when I have a well performing boat. At the moment the motor needs tweaking as it overheats fairly quickly. I also have a few evolutionary adjustments to the hull to perfect it and the method of construction. I think it is all perhaps over simple, as from my experience, with both motor and hull, the measurements and construction have to be almost perfect with little leeway for error. Also the motor needs to be soldered So more specialist tools are required to make the motor. Epoxy could be used but you still need Tin shears, and a gas torch for annealing the copper. I take my hat off to you for the effective simplicity of your design, but retaining the functionality and performance and making it easy for anyone to make with basic materials and tools. A great and fun design. I bet it took you a long time to finalise the detail of it. Also your dedication to make it available for all, and for teaching, is to be applauded.

                                      Many thanks and best regards.

                                      Tim



                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Slater Harrison <Sharrison@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I know what you mean, Tim (RE: simplicity). When I was working on the pop pop design-all designs, in fact-I measure progress by how much I can simplify it. It almost seems counterintuitive that the simplest model is the most highly evolved but it happens every time. As Henry David Thoreau said, "Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
                                      >
                                      > Interesting, too, that pop pops largely went into hibernation in industrialized countries for decades after WWII but thrived in Indonesia, Mexico, South Asia (where I first encountered them). A parallel thought: after the agricultural "Green Revolution" some of the superstar grain varieties were susceptible to fungus varieties that were difficult to control with fungicide. The botanists ended up scouring extremely remote, poor villages in Third World countries where people still used "obsolete " plant varieties. In these humble places they found resistant wheat and rice to breed resistance into the super varieties.
                                      >
                                      > Slater
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of epikflyer
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:13 PM
                                      > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Making steel tubes from a drinks can.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi All.
                                      >
                                      > Frank's last reply triggered my memory of an amusing anecdote, that in turn spurred a memory that I would like to share with you.
                                      >
                                      > There is a popular myth that, in the space race of the 1960's, NASA spent 1.5 Million dollars in developing a pen, that would work in the vacuum of space. The Russians simply used a pencil. While this is partially untrue. (There have been developments of ball point pens that work in a vacuum for some reason, though not developed by NASA).
                                      >
                                      > It served to remind me that while design, technology and advanced materials can be valuable in constructing high technology, with perhaps a huge development team behind it. That there is some guy in a shack, or under a palm tree in India or Bangladesh, with little or no education, and precious few resources, but huge quantities of talent and ingenuity, that can not only make these engines well, but make a living at it.
                                      >
                                      > My point is that while technology can be fascinating and pushes frontiers and boundaries. Sheer simplicity sometimes has much to tell us. The pop pop engine is a prime example. Much is not yet understood as to how to make the perfect and efficient pop pop engine. This is why, to some extent this group exists.
                                      >
                                      > While there are limitless technological solutions, some as yet undiscovered, there has to be a simple solution. I must admit I did see as a child in Bangladesh, how the boats were made but I was just a boy and just wanted the toy to play with as soon as possible, and paid little or no interest in how they were made. I will be forever sorry I did not pay more attention at the time. I understandthat Sciencetoymaker aka Slater Harrison also has the same regrets, that he to did not have the chance to experience how the boats were made in the time we were in the country.
                                      >
                                      > Many thanks for your valuable input gentlemen. I look forward to your further responses and input.
                                      >
                                      > best regards.
                                      >
                                      > Tim
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper
                                      > >
                                      > > From NASA's Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as strong as steel combines 3-M's ceramic paper with aluminum.
                                      > > 3-M's paper can withstand temps up to 2500° F compared with aluminum ejovl melts at about 1220 °F- so maybe composite tubes as strong as steel could be produced by wrapping 3-M's ceramic paper around a ceramic rod and dunking it in molten aluminum. If that worked maybe composite hulls, decks. etc. could be produced in about the same way.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hi Daryl,
                                      > > > Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I will let you know how I get on.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Cheers.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Tim
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Many thanks.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Tim
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > This message, together with any attachments, may contain information which is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message, along with any attachments.
                                      >
                                    • frankmcneilll
                                      Hi Tim, Simplicity is over-rated. Instead of using scissors to cut steel, buy a sheet metal nibbler at http://tinyurl.com/mra23f or elsewhere and next time-
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 17, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Tim,

                                        Simplicity is over-rated. Instead of using scissors to cut steel, buy a sheet metal nibbler at http://tinyurl.com/mra23f or elsewhere and next time- wear gloves.

                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Slater.
                                        >
                                        > I have been very inspired by what I have found on this group since your introduction via youtube. I am in the process of doing some instructions of Mr. Jean-Yves diaphragm motor instructions, that I have managed to work out a way of not needing any tooling to make. Also I have spent some time working out a hull for the motor. I took yours as a starting point and have worked out a way of making a similar looking hull, from a rectangle cut from a drinks can. It does not need any cutting out of a pattern, just a 120x200 rectangle, and no need for glue. I cut my hands to ribbons in many many attempts to achieve it, and I now have a hull that if I am more carefull with the measurements and construction, will be watertight. My latest effort only had a small droplet of water in the bow after an hour. It has safe edges all round when finished, but can be quite nasty while making it. The only tools used are a rule, scissors and pliers. Adding a deck and other nice things could be tricky because of them. I will be puting the instructions on here when I have a well performing boat. At the moment the motor needs tweaking as it overheats fairly quickly. I also have a few evolutionary adjustments to the hull to perfect it and the method of construction. I think it is all perhaps over simple, as from my experience, with both motor and hull, the measurements and construction have to be almost perfect with little leeway for error. Also the motor needs to be soldered So more specialist tools are required to make the motor. Epoxy could be used but you still need Tin shears, and a gas torch for annealing the copper. I take my hat off to you for the effective simplicity of your design, but retaining the functionality and performance and making it easy for anyone to make with basic materials and tools. A great and fun design. I bet it took you a long time to finalise the detail of it. Also your dedication to make it available for all, and for teaching, is to be applauded.
                                        >
                                        > Many thanks and best regards.
                                        >
                                        > Tim
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Slater Harrison <Sharrison@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I know what you mean, Tim (RE: simplicity). When I was working on the pop pop design-all designs, in fact-I measure progress by how much I can simplify it. It almost seems counterintuitive that the simplest model is the most highly evolved but it happens every time. As Henry David Thoreau said, "Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
                                        > >
                                        > > Interesting, too, that pop pops largely went into hibernation in industrialized countries for decades after WWII but thrived in Indonesia, Mexico, South Asia (where I first encountered them). A parallel thought: after the agricultural "Green Revolution" some of the superstar grain varieties were susceptible to fungus varieties that were difficult to control with fungicide. The botanists ended up scouring extremely remote, poor villages in Third World countries where people still used "obsolete " plant varieties. In these humble places they found resistant wheat and rice to breed resistance into the super varieties.
                                        > >
                                        > > Slater
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of epikflyer
                                        > > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:13 PM
                                        > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Making steel tubes from a drinks can.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi All.
                                        > >
                                        > > Frank's last reply triggered my memory of an amusing anecdote, that in turn spurred a memory that I would like to share with you.
                                        > >
                                        > > There is a popular myth that, in the space race of the 1960's, NASA spent 1.5 Million dollars in developing a pen, that would work in the vacuum of space. The Russians simply used a pencil. While this is partially untrue. (There have been developments of ball point pens that work in a vacuum for some reason, though not developed by NASA).
                                        > >
                                        > > It served to remind me that while design, technology and advanced materials can be valuable in constructing high technology, with perhaps a huge development team behind it. That there is some guy in a shack, or under a palm tree in India or Bangladesh, with little or no education, and precious few resources, but huge quantities of talent and ingenuity, that can not only make these engines well, but make a living at it.
                                        > >
                                        > > My point is that while technology can be fascinating and pushes frontiers and boundaries. Sheer simplicity sometimes has much to tell us. The pop pop engine is a prime example. Much is not yet understood as to how to make the perfect and efficient pop pop engine. This is why, to some extent this group exists.
                                        > >
                                        > > While there are limitless technological solutions, some as yet undiscovered, there has to be a simple solution. I must admit I did see as a child in Bangladesh, how the boats were made but I was just a boy and just wanted the toy to play with as soon as possible, and paid little or no interest in how they were made. I will be forever sorry I did not pay more attention at the time. I understandthat Sciencetoymaker aka Slater Harrison also has the same regrets, that he to did not have the chance to experience how the boats were made in the time we were in the country.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many thanks for your valuable input gentlemen. I look forward to your further responses and input.
                                        > >
                                        > > best regards.
                                        > >
                                        > > Tim
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > OR- Making composite tubes from aluminum cans and ceramic paper
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From NASA's Apollo Program, yet another offshoot: a product that can be as thin as paper and as strong as steel combines 3-M's ceramic paper with aluminum.
                                        > > > 3-M's paper can withstand temps up to 2500� F compared with aluminum ejovl melts at about 1220 �F- so maybe composite tubes as strong as steel could be produced by wrapping 3-M's ceramic paper around a ceramic rod and dunking it in molten aluminum. If that worked maybe composite hulls, decks. etc. could be produced in about the same way.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "jeanyves_renaud" <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Daryl,
                                        > > > > Have you tried this old method? Fill the pipe with soft metal, then bend the pipe as you wish and then heat it to let the melted soft metal go out.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Yes the pipes are magnetic. As is the boiler. They are both made from the same material. I have ordered a king size cigarette hand rolling machine off Ebay and am going to try that out with some thin material.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I will let you know how I get on.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Cheers.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Tim
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Are the pipes magnetic? Just wondering if they are made from the same brass sheet the engine diaphram is made from. I got some .005" brass sheet from the local craft store to day to tinker with.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com<mailto:pop-pop-steamboats%40yahoogroups.com>, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Hi all.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > I have posted a picture called Indian Engine in my album. "Tim's pop pop pictures". The seam along the pipe can be clearly seen. Sorry but I could not get a decent picture of the rear profile, that clearly shows the seam overlap and the wall thickness. Suffice to say it seems to be very thin and probably made from drink cans, and as previously stated has about a 2mm overlap and is 6mm in diameter. I would love to know how to make this. I have done a few experiments today, in between making another engine for a photographic tutorial, but to no avail.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Many thanks.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Tim
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > > This message, together with any attachments, may contain information which is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message, along with any attachments.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • frankmcneilll
                                        Hi Daryl, Here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with tin cans, but first take a look at the home page picture. Materials- Brass Rod Stock 3/32 Diameter
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 19, 2009
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                                          Hi Daryl,

                                          Here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with tin cans, but first take a look at the home page picture.
                                          Materials- Brass Rod Stock 3/32" Diameter for the edges of the tubes and Brass Strip Stock 1/64" Thick X 1" wide for the sides.
                                          Begin by bending two lengths of rod stock into identical S, U, C. or whatever comes next, shapes. Rig some kind of fixture to keep the bent rods parallel to one another and begin by soldering one end of a strip to the ends of the rods.
                                          The rods are six times thicker than the strips so it should be fairly easy to wrap the strips around to follow the curves of the rods using clamps, rubber bands or whatever it takes.
                                          Soldering should probably proceed at the same pace on both rods to prevent warping, and it might be a good idea to begin at the other end of the rods with the second piece of strip stock or to use wet blotter paper to prevent the first piece of strip stock from falling of while the second piece is soldered in place.
                                          If this seems as un-doable when you try doing it as it does to me while I am trying to describe it, consider using square tubing instead and mounting a bunch of identically bent tubes side by side, which might provide almost the same degree of propulsion.


                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                          >
                                        • darylcanada73
                                          Glad to hear someone is still pondering this problem. I did (honest) have that idea on my very short list of marginally reasonable ideas. I m hoping something
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                            Glad to hear someone is still pondering this problem.
                                            I did (honest) have that idea on my very short list of marginally reasonable ideas. I'm hoping something better will come to mind, the problem being that to handle the kind of heat I use it would have to be silver soldered and I'm reasonably sure warping would be a problem and that would be hard to repair. Important to have the tube, whatever shape more or less uniform. The radical shape was to see what effect it would have on condensation on a one or two tube engine. The multi tube idea I have used as you know and they should be better for condensation with an air gap rather than joined but to know for sure you just gotta try stuff to find out. I thought it might be doable to start by bending 1" tube and then run it through some rollers to flatten having first installed a solid spacer down the length of the center line to stop the center from collapsing. The cross section probably would be more like a flat 8 than a uniform rectangle but it could be OK length wise. I could of course test the idea with very little curve and that is probably the sensible thing to do, but, if it worked really good I'm left with a really long engine with a high C of G which means a high drag hull design.
                                            Keep working on this Frank. I'm counting on you.

                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Daryl,
                                            >
                                            > Here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with tin cans, but first take a look at the home page picture.
                                            > Materials- Brass Rod Stock 3/32" Diameter for the edges of the tubes and Brass Strip Stock 1/64" Thick X 1" wide for the sides.
                                            > Begin by bending two lengths of rod stock into identical S, U, C. or whatever comes next, shapes. Rig some kind of fixture to keep the bent rods parallel to one another and begin by soldering one end of a strip to the ends of the rods.
                                            > The rods are six times thicker than the strips so it should be fairly easy to wrap the strips around to follow the curves of the rods using clamps, rubber bands or whatever it takes.
                                            > Soldering should probably proceed at the same pace on both rods to prevent warping, and it might be a good idea to begin at the other end of the rods with the second piece of strip stock or to use wet blotter paper to prevent the first piece of strip stock from falling of while the second piece is soldered in place.
                                            > If this seems as un-doable when you try doing it as it does to me while I am trying to describe it, consider using square tubing instead and mounting a bunch of identically bent tubes side by side, which might provide almost the same degree of propulsion.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • frankmcneilll
                                            Hi Daryl, I have a vague recollection that some intricate items can be made by an electroplating process that requires a sacrificial pattern. Maybe my friend
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                              Hi Daryl,

                                              I have a vague recollection that some intricate items can be made by an electroplating process that requires a sacrificial pattern. Maybe my friend Google will know something about this.
                                              Meanwhile, I have a new home page picture that has nothing to do with tin cans, squashed tubes or electroplating. What the picture is intended to show is the possibility for using something similar to your "120 RPM Putt Putt in a can" to drive paddle wheels. You might be able to involve Pete in the development of a putt putt in a can drive for a side wheeler that might wind up looking a lot like Fulton's North River Clermont.

                                              ttfn, Frank


                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Glad to hear someone is still pondering this problem.
                                              > I did (honest) have that idea on my very short list of marginally reasonable ideas. I'm hoping something better will come to mind, the problem being that to handle the kind of heat I use it would have to be silver soldered and I'm reasonably sure warping would be a problem and that would be hard to repair. Important to have the tube, whatever shape more or less uniform. The radical shape was to see what effect it would have on condensation on a one or two tube engine. The multi tube idea I have used as you know and they should be better for condensation with an air gap rather than joined but to know for sure you just gotta try stuff to find out. I thought it might be doable to start by bending 1" tube and then run it through some rollers to flatten having first installed a solid spacer down the length of the center line to stop the center from collapsing. The cross section probably would be more like a flat 8 than a uniform rectangle but it could be OK length wise. I could of course test the idea with very little curve and that is probably the sensible thing to do, but, if it worked really good I'm left with a really long engine with a high C of G which means a high drag hull design.
                                              > Keep working on this Frank. I'm counting on you.
                                              >
                                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Daryl,
                                              > >
                                              > > Here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with tin cans, but first take a look at the home page picture.
                                              > > Materials- Brass Rod Stock 3/32" Diameter for the edges of the tubes and Brass Strip Stock 1/64" Thick X 1" wide for the sides.
                                              > > Begin by bending two lengths of rod stock into identical S, U, C. or whatever comes next, shapes. Rig some kind of fixture to keep the bent rods parallel to one another and begin by soldering one end of a strip to the ends of the rods.
                                              > > The rods are six times thicker than the strips so it should be fairly easy to wrap the strips around to follow the curves of the rods using clamps, rubber bands or whatever it takes.
                                              > > Soldering should probably proceed at the same pace on both rods to prevent warping, and it might be a good idea to begin at the other end of the rods with the second piece of strip stock or to use wet blotter paper to prevent the first piece of strip stock from falling of while the second piece is soldered in place.
                                              > > If this seems as un-doable when you try doing it as it does to me while I am trying to describe it, consider using square tubing instead and mounting a bunch of identically bent tubes side by side, which might provide almost the same degree of propulsion.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Speaking of making tubes for putt engines:- Potentialy the ideal shape for tubes would be wide and thin, for example 1" wide x 1/8" x 16". That part is not too tough but then bending it into a flat S or a U for the shape desired gets a little harder. Suggestions????
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Donald Qualls
                                              ... Electroforming, as it s called, has been used for objects as large as complete rocket thrust chambers, formed with cooling passages integral and no seams,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                frankmcneilll wrote:
                                                > Hi Daryl,
                                                >
                                                > I have a vague recollection that some intricate items can be made by
                                                > an electroplating process that requires a sacrificial pattern. Maybe
                                                > my friend Google will know something about this.

                                                Electroforming, as it's called, has been used for objects as large as
                                                complete rocket thrust chambers, formed with cooling passages integral
                                                and no seams, welds, or casting defects (that particular example used
                                                solid, pure nickel, formed onto a graphite chamber liner). The
                                                technology to do this is fairly straightforward for simple objects, it's
                                                basically just an electroplating setup with a means of supplying fresh
                                                plating solution over time. There's little advantage over casting or
                                                machining, however, unless you need something like a part with formed-in
                                                cooling passages that, for whatever reason, can't be made with
                                                conventional cores, or (as in the case of the rocket chamber) need to
                                                produce a part bonded to a dissimilar material and avoid casting shrink,
                                                inclusions, and other defects. It's a very expensive way to do things,
                                                industrially, because of the time required -- though of course hobbyists
                                                see time investment differently.

                                                --
                                                If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                                it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                                Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                                Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                                and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                              • zoomkat
                                                I got some 1/8 and 3/16 brass tubing at the local hobby shop a couple of days ago. After being heated red hot then cooled, the tubing becomes bendable with
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                  I got some 1/8" and 3/16" brass tubing at the local hobby shop a couple of days ago. After being heated red hot then cooled, the tubing becomes bendable with the fingers. The 3/16" tubing appears to be the same size as the hand rolled tubing in the Indian boats. The cost was ~$1/ft, so it might save time and trouble over hand making tubing. A side project might be to make a simple bending tool or jig to make fairly tight tubing bends without kinking the tubing.

                                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi.
                                                  >
                                                  > I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel sheet, presumably from recycled cans. I can feel, and see defined lip all the way along the tubes, which are 6mm in diameter, and there is a small seam overlap of approximately 2 mm, although I did not nice it until I scrutinized it more closely. The pipes are not entirely circular in profile but the motor works very well and is very light. Much lighter than what I have been making from Copper pipe and sheet, and of thinner wall thickness. I can not see any evidence of soldering. Although very simple, I can not for the life of me fathom out how ingeniously this engine was put together with the materials used, and the quality of the workmanship is fantastic.
                                                  >
                                                  > To sum up. Does anybody have any ideas of how to make steel tube from drinks cans, that can,or has been formed into shape. They do not appear to have been annealed, or in the process of construction, are totally work hardened. In any case they are very rigid and solid in construction.
                                                  >
                                                  > Any advice or information offered would be greatly appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  > Many thanks.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tim
                                                  >
                                                • Tim
                                                  Hi Zoomkat. Many thanks for sharing your experience and experimentation. It is funny you should mention a machine for making tight bends. My wife is into all
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                    Hi Zoomkat.

                                                    Many thanks for sharing your experience and experimentation. It is funny you should mention a machine for making tight bends. My wife is into all things wool. She takes a fleece and cards it ,spins it and makes some wonder full creations. Anyway, I recently made her a device for measuring the length of the wool she makes. This involved grinding up round tools and v tools for the lathe, to make some pullies of varying diameters and widths. I may try to use some of these pullies to make a simple pipe bending machine. I fear though that even annealed material will have a minimum bend radius dependant on the softness of the material and the wall thickness. I have a pipe bender for 4,6,and 8mm pipe and the bend radius is large in comparison to the Indian engine. I believe the end of the pipe is cut to 45 degrees so only a 45 degree bend is needed. to get the tube parallel to the boiler. Even so when I use standard tube sizes and a pipe bender I still get about twice the radius they achieve and the extra height that creates effects the performance of the motor. I have also tried various methods described on this group and other sites and have kinked or flattened the pipe even when heated to cherry red, while bending. I have recieved the cigarette rolling machine and it is now in the dustbin. No luck at all. On further investigation and thought, I susspect that the boiler part is pressed by some kind of tooling, presumably on a fly press but still have no idea for the pipes. I suspect some form of tooling is used rather than being hand made due to the accuracy of the seam and bend. I think the only solution is a trip to India. I know Frank has already made attempts in vein to contact people in India. I have asked freinds of my fathers in Bangldesh to look out for any information but I do not hold out much hope. TImes have moved on since I was there it seams.

                                                    Best wishes in your endeavors and I look forward to hearing about your developments.

                                                    Cheers.

                                                    Tim



                                                    .--- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I got some 1/8" and 3/16" brass tubing at the local hobby shop a couple of days ago. After being heated red hot then cooled, the tubing becomes bendable with the fingers. The 3/16" tubing appears to be the same size as the hand rolled tubing in the Indian boats. The cost was ~$1/ft, so it might save time and trouble over hand making tubing. A side project might be to make a simple bending tool or jig to make fairly tight tubing bends without kinking the tubing.
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "epikflyer" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I have just been examining a motor I bought off ebay from India. Other than the Brass diaphragm, it appears to be made entirely from steel sheet, presumably from recycled cans. I can feel, and see defined lip all the way along the tubes, which are 6mm in diameter, and there is a small seam overlap of approximately 2 mm, although I did not nice it until I scrutinized it more closely. The pipes are not entirely circular in profile but the motor works very well and is very light. Much lighter than what I have been making from Copper pipe and sheet, and of thinner wall thickness. I can not see any evidence of soldering. Although very simple, I can not for the life of me fathom out how ingeniously this engine was put together with the materials used, and the quality of the workmanship is fantastic.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > To sum up. Does anybody have any ideas of how to make steel tube from drinks cans, that can,or has been formed into shape. They do not appear to have been annealed, or in the process of construction, are totally work hardened. In any case they are very rigid and solid in construction.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Any advice or information offered would be greatly appreciated.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Many thanks.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Tim
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • Pete
                                                    Hi Frank & gang, I still have a sidewheeler pop-pop on my agenda. I d love to work on a design with anyone and everyone interested. It is taking the back seat
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                      Hi Frank & gang,

                                                      I still have a sidewheeler pop-pop on my agenda. I'd love to work on a design with anyone and everyone interested. It is taking the back seat to the Fulton Engine Project until it is completed. Things for that project are coming together after a small bump in the road this summer. I have uploaded several jpegs of where we are. I have gone higher tech (laser cutting)for all of the wooden paddlewheel components to replace those lost in a flood. We also lost over 500 pcs of custom made 2-56 hardware sets. To make matters worse modelmaker lost $1000's in personal items.

                                                      I am also working with a startup company in the Netherlands to have bell brackets and lanyard lever 3D printed in bronze infused (impregnated) stainless. Getting lots of free support from individuals and companies. Very encouraging and rewarding.

                                                      If anyone is interested please write via e-mail.

                                                      Love the brainstorming shown on our message board. Thanks to all involved.

                                                      regards,

                                                      Pete

                                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "frankmcneilll" <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Daryl,

                                                      ....You might be able to involve Pete in the development of a putt putt in a can drive for a side wheeler that might wind up looking a lot like Fulton's North River Clermont.
                                                      >
                                                      > ttfn, Frank
                                                    • zoomkat
                                                      The below shows a tubing bender that seems to make fairly tight bends. I was thinking of making a bend mandrel out of washers that have the ~desired radius and
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Sep 20, 2009
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                                                        The below shows a tubing bender that seems to make fairly tight bends. I was thinking of making a bend mandrel out of washers that have the ~desired radius and flank them with larger diameter washers for side support of the tubing. I measured some 3/16" x 1 1/4" washers on hand and they are 1/32" thick. To bend 3/32" tubing one could stack 3 of the desired washers and flank them on each side with larger diameter washers, then run a bolt thru them and tighten. Then the tubing could be put in the slot and bent around the center washers. Hopefully the outside washers would limit the kinking by providing side support to the tubing during the bend. Bottom link has some pix of the Rattandeep factory. You might try them for info. Years ago I use to get Christmas email greetings from them.

                                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_68yZmqJF4M
                                                        http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXE228&P=7
                                                        http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRS90&P=7

                                                        http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/
                                                        http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/factory.html

                                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Zoomkat.
                                                        >
                                                        > Many thanks for sharing your experience and experimentation. It is funny you should mention a machine for making tight bends. My wife is into all things wool. She takes a fleece and cards it ,spins it and makes some wonder full creations. Anyway, I recently made her a device for measuring the length of the wool she makes. This involved grinding up round tools and v tools for the lathe, to make some pullies of varying diameters and widths. I may try to use some of these pullies to make a simple pipe bending machine. I fear though that even annealed material will have a minimum bend radius dependant on the softness of the material and the wall thickness. I have a pipe bender for 4,6,and 8mm pipe and the bend radius is large in comparison to the Indian engine. I believe the end of the pipe is cut to 45 degrees so only a 45 degree bend is needed. to get the tube parallel to the boiler. Even so when I use standard tube sizes and a pipe bender I still get about twice the radius they achieve and the extra height that creates effects the performance of the motor. I have also tried various methods described on this group and other sites and have kinked or flattened the pipe even when heated to cherry red, while bending. I have recieved the cigarette rolling machine and it is now in the dustbin. No luck at all. On further investigation and thought, I susspect that the boiler part is pressed by some kind of tooling, presumably on a fly press but still have no idea for the pipes. I suspect some form of tooling is used rather than being hand made due to the accuracy of the seam and bend. I think the only solution is a trip to India. I know Frank has already made attempts in vein to contact people in India. I have asked freinds of my fathers in Bangldesh to look out for any information but I do not hold out much hope. TImes have moved on since I was there it seams.
                                                        >
                                                        > Best wishes in your endeavors and I look forward to hearing about your developments.
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers.
                                                        >
                                                        > Tim
                                                      • darylcanada73
                                                        The washers work good on small dia. tubing but the flat bottom will flatten the tube on larger dia s. Tim s wood pulley type is what I mostly use. They are
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          The washers work good on small dia. tubing but the flat bottom
                                                          will flatten the tube on larger dia's. Tim's wood pulley type is what I mostly use. They are easily made of hardwood(I do it on my drill press as I don't have a lathe) and the bottom should be U shaped so the tube is supported evenly over 180 degrees. Different dia's gives you larger or smaller turns but there is a limit how tight a turn can be made that is mostly dependant on the material used. The outside material in the turn will only stretch so much and thin wall tubing will break quite easily regardless of annealing or sand filling. Pulleys must be made to be a very snug fit and I oil the pulley to help the pipe slide. PULL the pipe around the pulley. Don't push it around. There is no need to make the 90 degree turn as in the India boats. A 45 or even less will work as well. Just keep the final pipe length and boiler height the same as the original if you are copying.
                                                          Another method using the pulleys is to thread a muti strand very flexible SS steel cable through the tube and pull it around. This has the advantage of keeping the tube in tight contact with the bottom of the pulley. Steel or tin is a bad choice for material as it's going to rust and has no advantage over brass other than cost. Stainless works great if you can find it but is tougher to bend.

                                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > The below shows a tubing bender that seems to make fairly tight bends. I was thinking of making a bend mandrel out of washers that have the ~desired radius and flank them with larger diameter washers for side support of the tubing. I measured some 3/16" x 1 1/4" washers on hand and they are 1/32" thick. To bend 3/32" tubing one could stack 3 of the desired washers and flank them on each side with larger diameter washers, then run a bolt thru them and tighten. Then the tubing could be put in the slot and bent around the center washers. Hopefully the outside washers would limit the kinking by providing side support to the tubing during the bend. Bottom link has some pix of the Rattandeep factory. You might try them for info. Years ago I use to get Christmas email greetings from them.
                                                          >
                                                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_68yZmqJF4M
                                                          > http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXE228&P=7
                                                          > http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRS90&P=7
                                                          >
                                                          > http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/
                                                          > http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/factory.html
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Many thanks for sharing your experience and experimentation. It is funny you should mention a machine for making tight bends. My wife is into all things wool. She takes a fleece and cards it ,spins it and makes some wonder full creations. Anyway, I recently made her a device for measuring the length of the wool she makes. This involved grinding up round tools and v tools for the lathe, to make some pullies of varying diameters and widths. I may try to use some of these pullies to make a simple pipe bending machine. I fear though that even annealed material will have a minimum bend radius dependant on the softness of the material and the wall thickness. I have a pipe bender for 4,6,and 8mm pipe and the bend radius is large in comparison to the Indian engine. I believe the end of the pipe is cut to 45 degrees so only a 45 degree bend is needed. to get the tube parallel to the boiler. Even so when I use standard tube sizes and a pipe bender I still get about twice the radius they achieve and the extra height that creates effects the performance of the motor. I have also tried various methods described on this group and other sites and have kinked or flattened the pipe even when heated to cherry red, while bending. I have recieved the cigarette rolling machine and it is now in the dustbin. No luck at all. On further investigation and thought, I susspect that the boiler part is pressed by some kind of tooling, presumably on a fly press but still have no idea for the pipes. I suspect some form of tooling is used rather than being hand made due to the accuracy of the seam and bend. I think the only solution is a trip to India. I know Frank has already made attempts in vein to contact people in India. I have asked freinds of my fathers in Bangldesh to look out for any information but I do not hold out much hope. TImes have moved on since I was there it seams.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Best wishes in your endeavors and I look forward to hearing about your developments.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Cheers.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Tim
                                                          >
                                                        • zoomkat
                                                          I need to get the below at the local Harbor Freight store to see how well they work. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65794
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            I need to get the below at the local Harbor Freight store to see how well they work.

                                                            http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65794

                                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73" <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > The washers work good on small dia. tubing but the flat bottom
                                                            > will flatten the tube on larger dia's. Tim's wood pulley type is what I mostly use. They are easily made of hardwood(I do it on my drill press as I don't have a lathe) and the bottom should be U shaped so the tube is supported evenly over 180 degrees. Different dia's gives you larger or smaller turns but there is a limit how tight a turn can be made that is mostly dependant on the material used. The outside material in the turn will only stretch so much and thin wall tubing will break quite easily regardless of annealing or sand filling. Pulleys must be made to be a very snug fit and I oil the pulley to help the pipe slide. PULL the pipe around the pulley. Don't push it around. There is no need to make the 90 degree turn as in the India boats. A 45 or even less will work as well. Just keep the final pipe length and boiler height the same as the original if you are copying.
                                                            > Another method using the pulleys is to thread a muti strand very flexible SS steel cable through the tube and pull it around. This has the advantage of keeping the tube in tight contact with the bottom of the pulley. Steel or tin is a bad choice for material as it's going to rust and has no advantage over brass other than cost. Stainless works great if you can find it but is tougher to bend.
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The below shows a tubing bender that seems to make fairly tight bends. I was thinking of making a bend mandrel out of washers that have the ~desired radius and flank them with larger diameter washers for side support of the tubing. I measured some 3/16" x 1 1/4" washers on hand and they are 1/32" thick. To bend 3/32" tubing one could stack 3 of the desired washers and flank them on each side with larger diameter washers, then run a bolt thru them and tighten. Then the tubing could be put in the slot and bent around the center washers. Hopefully the outside washers would limit the kinking by providing side support to the tubing during the bend. Bottom link has some pix of the Rattandeep factory. You might try them for info. Years ago I use to get Christmas email greetings from them.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_68yZmqJF4M
                                                            > > http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXE228&P=7
                                                            > > http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRS90&P=7
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/
                                                            > > http://www.geocities.com/rkhannaz/factory.html
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <p-40.av8r@> wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Hi Zoomkat.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Many thanks for sharing your experience and experimentation. It is funny you should mention a machine for making tight bends. My wife is into all things wool. She takes a fleece and cards it ,spins it and makes some wonder full creations. Anyway, I recently made her a device for measuring the length of the wool she makes. This involved grinding up round tools and v tools for the lathe, to make some pullies of varying diameters and widths. I may try to use some of these pullies to make a simple pipe bending machine. I fear though that even annealed material will have a minimum bend radius dependant on the softness of the material and the wall thickness. I have a pipe bender for 4,6,and 8mm pipe and the bend radius is large in comparison to the Indian engine. I believe the end of the pipe is cut to 45 degrees so only a 45 degree bend is needed. to get the tube parallel to the boiler. Even so when I use standard tube sizes and a pipe bender I still get about twice the radius they achieve and the extra height that creates effects the performance of the motor. I have also tried various methods described on this group and other sites and have kinked or flattened the pipe even when heated to cherry red, while bending. I have recieved the cigarette rolling machine and it is now in the dustbin. No luck at all. On further investigation and thought, I susspect that the boiler part is pressed by some kind of tooling, presumably on a fly press but still have no idea for the pipes. I suspect some form of tooling is used rather than being hand made due to the accuracy of the seam and bend. I think the only solution is a trip to India. I know Frank has already made attempts in vein to contact people in India. I have asked freinds of my fathers in Bangldesh to look out for any information but I do not hold out much hope. TImes have moved on since I was there it seams.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Best wishes in your endeavors and I look forward to hearing about your developments.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Cheers.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Tim
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                          • David Halfpenny
                                                            ... From: zoomkat Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:59 AM To: Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re:
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
                                                            • 1 Attachment
                                                            • 58 KB
                                                            --------------------------------------------------
                                                            From: "zoomkat" <Zoomkat@...>
                                                            Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:59 AM
                                                            To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Making steel tubes from a drinks can.

                                                            > I need to get the below at the local Harbor Freight store to see how well
                                                            > they work.
                                                            >

                                                            These have been sold by K&S for generations. They work well with annealed
                                                            tube. You have a limit of how much you can contort the tube and still get
                                                            the spring off, but you can work it along the tube bit by bit.

                                                            You could try this.

                                                            David 1/2d
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