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Re: pop-pop paddle wheel

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  • Richard Mundy
    Hi Pete, We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a shaft with a
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 1, 2009
      Hi Pete,

      We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
      Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
      shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
      of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
      and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite quickly.
      Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt especially
      in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow thruster
      or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about with a
      ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of steel!

      http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/

      I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
      around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
      conventional and off the shelf.

      Dick





      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Dick...
      >
      > For the challenge of it all!
      >
      > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
      Fulton's
      > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began developing a
      > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
      brass
      > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any kind of
      a
      > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be relatively
      > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on my
      PC. I
      > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version. The
      hull
      > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with an
      > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted inlet/outlet
      > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
      >
      > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
      renewed
      > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
      Although
      > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build as a
      > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
      know
      > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
      > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
      personal
      > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a display
      > model.
      >
      > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
      design
      > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design as
      it
      > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options for
      > propelling the boat:
      >
      > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
      > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards the
      > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to turn
      and
      > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
      the
      > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
      spinning
      > lawn sprinkler.
      >
      > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
      engine for
      > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
      design
      > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
      > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm working
      with
      > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New York.
      The
      > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is building
      the
      > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm kind
      of
      > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work. working
      up to
      > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just dosen't
      give
      > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
      Thus
      > the back burner status.
      >
      > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
      >
      > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
      actually
      > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven by
      > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each other.
      They
      > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one wheel
      > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration allows
      the
      > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle wheels'
      > axis.
      >
      > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-Pop. It
      now
      > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
      directly
      > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
      >
      > regards,
      >
      > Pete
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi all,
      > >
      > > why power the paddle wheel?
      > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
      > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel
      > just
      > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops,
      so
      > > does the wheel.
      > >
      > > Dick
      > >
      >
    • Pete B.
      Hi Dick, Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The 1807 version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of 13ft. It was
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 2, 2009

        Hi Dick,

        Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The 1807 version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of 13ft. It was steered by rudder & tiller. The boat was powered by a 20 hp vertical, rotary, condensing Boulton & Watt engine. The boiler was approximately 20ft long with an 8ft by 7ft cross-section. It was fabricated from copper plate. It is thought that Paul Revere provided the copper plate to the company that fabricated the boiler for Fulton.

         

        In the first season of service they found the boat to be very unstable and extremely difficult to steer. In addition the exposed paddlewheels became "targets" for the Captains of the sailing ships on the river.

        During the winter of 1807-08 Fulton enlarged the boat to approximately 150ft and an 18ft beam. He added a ship's wheel and pulleys for steering, shroud over the paddlewheels for protection and to minimize spraying the passengers. Addition sleeping berths, a galley, women's and men's lounges were also added. He called the 1808 version of his boat "The North River of Clermont". In history we know it as the CLERMONT.

        The North River was the early name the Hudson River and Clermont was the estate of Robert Livingston and the boat's home port.

         

        So much for the brief history lesson..

         

        Are you game to work on a paddlewheel scheme in anticipation of putting a Pop-Pop Clermont together? For a reference point a 16 inch boat would have paddlewheels of approximateely 1.6 inches in diameter. The easy math is that the North River was 150ft long with paddlewheels 15ft in diameter or a ratio of 10:1.

        Regards,

        Pete


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Pete,
        >
        > We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
        > Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
        > shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
        > of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
        > and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite quickly.
        > Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt especially
        > in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow thruster
        > or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about with a
        > ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of steel!
        >
        > http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/
        >
        > I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
        > around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
        > conventional and off the shelf.
        >
        > Dick
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." georgeyyy@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Dick...
        > >
        > > For the challenge of it all!
        > >
        > > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
        > Fulton's
        > > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began developing a
        > > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
        > brass
        > > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any kind of
        > a
        > > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be relatively
        > > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on my
        > PC. I
        > > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version. The
        > hull
        > > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with an
        > > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted inlet/outlet
        > > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
        > >
        > > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
        > renewed
        > > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
        > Although
        > > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build as a
        > > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
        > know
        > > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
        > > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
        > personal
        > > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a display
        > > model.
        > >
        > > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
        > design
        > > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design as
        > it
        > > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options for
        > > propelling the boat:
        > >
        > > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
        > > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards the
        > > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to turn
        > and
        > > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
        > the
        > > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
        > spinning
        > > lawn sprinkler.
        > >
        > > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
        > engine for
        > > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
        > design
        > > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
        > > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm working
        > with
        > > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New York.
        > The
        > > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is building
        > the
        > > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm kind
        > of
        > > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work. working
        > up to
        > > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just dosen't
        > give
        > > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
        > Thus
        > > the back burner status.
        > >
        > > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
        > >
        > > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
        > actually
        > > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven by
        > > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each other.
        > They
        > > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one wheel
        > > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration allows
        > the
        > > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle wheels'
        > > axis.
        > >
        > > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-Pop. It
        > now
        > > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
        > directly
        > > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
        > >
        > > regards,
        > >
        > > Pete
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi all,
        > > >
        > > > why power the paddle wheel?
        > > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
        > > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel
        > > just
        > > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops,
        > so
        > > > does the wheel.
        > > >
        > > > Dick
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Pete, Thanks for this, I was thinking about this today (when I should have been thinking of other things) what I came up with is a wet well (hole) in the
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 2, 2009
          Hi Pete,

          Thanks for this, I was thinking about this today (when I should have
          been thinking of other things) what I came up with is a wet well
          (hole) in the middle of the model in which is sat a circular metal
          can with a vertical, central spindle. A pop-pop engine or two is set
          up to discharge tangentially into the can and so set the water in the
          can spinning. The drive is from a vaned disc mounted on the centre
          spindle. The reason for the wet well is cooling. Pop pop and fluid
          drive all in one.

          I must add this to my ever lengthening list of pop-pop projects
          unless of course someone gives me a reason why it won't work.

          I am very game to help with the Claremont project & by then should
          know a lot more and have honed my hard soldering skills. At the
          moment I am looking into electro etching brass components. There are
          always distractions !

          Dick


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Dick,
          >
          >
          >
          > Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The
          1807
          > version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of
          13ft.
          > It was steered by rudder & tiller. The boat was powered by a 20 hp
          > vertical, rotary, condensing Boulton & Watt engine. The boiler was
          > approximately 20ft long with an 8ft by 7ft cross-section. It was
          > fabricated from copper plate. It is thought that Paul Revere
          provided
          > the copper plate to the company that fabricated the boiler for
          Fulton.
          >
          >
          >
          > In the first season of service they found the boat to be very
          unstable
          > and extremely difficult to steer. In addition the exposed
          paddlewheels
          > became "targets" for the Captains of the sailing ships on the river.
          >
          >
          >
          > During the winter of 1807-08 Fulton enlarged the boat to
          approximately
          > 150ft and an 18ft beam. He added a ship's wheel and pulleys for
          > steering, shroud over the paddlewheels for protection and to
          minimize
          > spraying the passengers. Addition sleeping berths, a galley,
          women's and
          > men's lounges were also added. He called the 1808 version of his
          boat
          > "The North River of Clermont". In history we know it as the
          CLERMONT.
          >
          > The North River was the early name the Hudson River and Clermont
          was the
          > estate of Robert Livingston and the boat's home port.
          >
          >
          >
          > So much for the brief history lesson..
          >
          >
          >
          > Are you game to work on a paddlewheel scheme in anticipation of
          putting
          > a Pop-Pop Clermont together? For a reference point a 16 inch boat
          would
          > have paddlewheels of approximateely 1.6 inches in diameter. The easy
          > math is that the North River was 150ft long with paddlewheels 15ft
          in
          > diameter or a ratio of 10:1.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Pete
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Pete,
          > >
          > > We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
          > > Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
          > > shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
          > > of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
          > > and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite
          quickly.
          > > Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt
          especially
          > > in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow
          thruster
          > > or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about
          with a
          > > ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of
          steel!
          > >
          > > http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/
          > >
          > > I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
          > > around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
          > > conventional and off the shelf.
          > >
          > > Dick
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." georgeyyy@
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi Dick...
          > > >
          > > > For the challenge of it all!
          > > >
          > > > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
          > > Fulton's
          > > > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began
          developing a
          > > > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
          > > brass
          > > > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any
          kind of
          > > a
          > > > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be
          relatively
          > > > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on
          my
          > > PC. I
          > > > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version.
          The
          > > hull
          > > > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with
          an
          > > > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted
          inlet/outlet
          > > > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
          > > >
          > > > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
          > > renewed
          > > > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
          > > Although
          > > > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build
          as a
          > > > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
          > > know
          > > > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
          > > > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
          > > personal
          > > > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a
          display
          > > > model.
          > > >
          > > > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
          > > design
          > > > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design
          as
          > > it
          > > > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options
          for
          > > > propelling the boat:
          > > >
          > > > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
          > > > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards
          the
          > > > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to
          turn
          > > and
          > > > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
          > > the
          > > > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
          > > spinning
          > > > lawn sprinkler.
          > > >
          > > > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
          > > engine for
          > > > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
          > > design
          > > > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
          > > > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm
          working
          > > with
          > > > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New
          York.
          > > The
          > > > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is
          building
          > > the
          > > > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm
          kind
          > > of
          > > > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work.
          working
          > > up to
          > > > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just
          dosen't
          > > give
          > > > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
          > > Thus
          > > > the back burner status.
          > > >
          > > > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
          > > >
          > > > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
          > > actually
          > > > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven
          by
          > > > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each
          other.
          > > They
          > > > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one
          wheel
          > > > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration
          allows
          > > the
          > > > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle
          wheels'
          > > > axis.
          > > >
          > > > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-
          Pop. It
          > > now
          > > > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
          > > directly
          > > > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
          > > >
          > > > regards,
          > > >
          > > > Pete
          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi all,
          > > > >
          > > > > why power the paddle wheel?
          > > > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks
          like a
          > > > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern
          wheel
          > > > just
          > > > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat
          stops,
          > > so
          > > > > does the wheel.
          > > > >
          > > > > Dick
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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