Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

pop-pop paddle wheel

Expand Messages
  • Richard Mundy
    Hi all, why power the paddle wheel? There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 28, 2009
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi all,

      why power the paddle wheel?
      There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
      Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel just
      freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops, so
      does the wheel.

      Dick
    • Pete B.
      Hi Dick... For the challenge of it all! This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert Fulton s North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 1, 2009
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment

        Hi Dick...

        For the challenge of it all!

        This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert Fulton's North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began developing a CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and brass pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any kind of a woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be relatively simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on my PC. I began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version. The hull design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with an engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted inlet/outlet pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.

        With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank renewed some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing. Although it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build as a pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do know that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for personal aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a display model.

        I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel design based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design as it lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options for propelling the boat:

        • the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design
        • freewheeling paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards the buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to turn and move the boat forward
        • integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into the paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the spinning lawn sprinkler.

        I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop engine for use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more design time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm working with the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New York. The volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is building the display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm kind of the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work. working up to 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just dosen't give me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice. Thus the back burner status.

        RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;

        We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is actually propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven by hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each other. They can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one wheel going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration allows the bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle wheels' axis.

        Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-Pop. It now contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos directly related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS

        regards,

        Pete

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > why power the paddle wheel?
        > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
        > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel just
        > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops, so
        > does the wheel.
        >
        > Dick
        >

      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Pete, We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a shaft with a
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 1, 2009
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Pete,

          We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
          Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
          shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
          of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
          and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite quickly.
          Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt especially
          in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow thruster
          or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about with a
          ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of steel!

          http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/

          I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
          around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
          conventional and off the shelf.

          Dick





          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Dick...
          >
          > For the challenge of it all!
          >
          > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
          Fulton's
          > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began developing a
          > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
          brass
          > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any kind of
          a
          > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be relatively
          > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on my
          PC. I
          > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version. The
          hull
          > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with an
          > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted inlet/outlet
          > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
          >
          > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
          renewed
          > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
          Although
          > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build as a
          > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
          know
          > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
          > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
          personal
          > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a display
          > model.
          >
          > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
          design
          > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design as
          it
          > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options for
          > propelling the boat:
          >
          > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
          > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards the
          > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to turn
          and
          > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
          the
          > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
          spinning
          > lawn sprinkler.
          >
          > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
          engine for
          > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
          design
          > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
          > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm working
          with
          > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New York.
          The
          > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is building
          the
          > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm kind
          of
          > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work. working
          up to
          > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just dosen't
          give
          > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
          Thus
          > the back burner status.
          >
          > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
          >
          > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
          actually
          > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven by
          > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each other.
          They
          > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one wheel
          > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration allows
          the
          > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle wheels'
          > axis.
          >
          > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-Pop. It
          now
          > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
          directly
          > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
          >
          > regards,
          >
          > Pete
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi all,
          > >
          > > why power the paddle wheel?
          > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
          > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel
          > just
          > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops,
          so
          > > does the wheel.
          > >
          > > Dick
          > >
          >
        • Pete B.
          Hi Dick, Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The 1807 version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of 13ft. It was
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 2, 2009
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment

            Hi Dick,

            Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The 1807 version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of 13ft. It was steered by rudder & tiller. The boat was powered by a 20 hp vertical, rotary, condensing Boulton & Watt engine. The boiler was approximately 20ft long with an 8ft by 7ft cross-section. It was fabricated from copper plate. It is thought that Paul Revere provided the copper plate to the company that fabricated the boiler for Fulton.

             

            In the first season of service they found the boat to be very unstable and extremely difficult to steer. In addition the exposed paddlewheels became "targets" for the Captains of the sailing ships on the river.

            During the winter of 1807-08 Fulton enlarged the boat to approximately 150ft and an 18ft beam. He added a ship's wheel and pulleys for steering, shroud over the paddlewheels for protection and to minimize spraying the passengers. Addition sleeping berths, a galley, women's and men's lounges were also added. He called the 1808 version of his boat "The North River of Clermont". In history we know it as the CLERMONT.

            The North River was the early name the Hudson River and Clermont was the estate of Robert Livingston and the boat's home port.

             

            So much for the brief history lesson..

             

            Are you game to work on a paddlewheel scheme in anticipation of putting a Pop-Pop Clermont together? For a reference point a 16 inch boat would have paddlewheels of approximateely 1.6 inches in diameter. The easy math is that the North River was 150ft long with paddlewheels 15ft in diameter or a ratio of 10:1.

            Regards,

            Pete


            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Pete,
            >
            > We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
            > Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
            > shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
            > of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
            > and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite quickly.
            > Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt especially
            > in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow thruster
            > or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about with a
            > ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of steel!
            >
            > http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/
            >
            > I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
            > around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
            > conventional and off the shelf.
            >
            > Dick
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." georgeyyy@
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Dick...
            > >
            > > For the challenge of it all!
            > >
            > > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
            > Fulton's
            > > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began developing a
            > > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
            > brass
            > > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any kind of
            > a
            > > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be relatively
            > > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on my
            > PC. I
            > > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version. The
            > hull
            > > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with an
            > > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted inlet/outlet
            > > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
            > >
            > > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
            > renewed
            > > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
            > Although
            > > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build as a
            > > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
            > know
            > > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
            > > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
            > personal
            > > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a display
            > > model.
            > >
            > > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
            > design
            > > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design as
            > it
            > > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options for
            > > propelling the boat:
            > >
            > > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
            > > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards the
            > > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to turn
            > and
            > > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
            > the
            > > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
            > spinning
            > > lawn sprinkler.
            > >
            > > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
            > engine for
            > > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
            > design
            > > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
            > > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm working
            > with
            > > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New York.
            > The
            > > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is building
            > the
            > > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm kind
            > of
            > > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work. working
            > up to
            > > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just dosen't
            > give
            > > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
            > Thus
            > > the back burner status.
            > >
            > > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
            > >
            > > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
            > actually
            > > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven by
            > > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each other.
            > They
            > > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one wheel
            > > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration allows
            > the
            > > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle wheels'
            > > axis.
            > >
            > > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-Pop. It
            > now
            > > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
            > directly
            > > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
            > >
            > > regards,
            > >
            > > Pete
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > > <coracles18@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi all,
            > > >
            > > > why power the paddle wheel?
            > > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks like a
            > > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern wheel
            > > just
            > > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat stops,
            > so
            > > > does the wheel.
            > > >
            > > > Dick
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Richard Mundy
            Hi Pete, Thanks for this, I was thinking about this today (when I should have been thinking of other things) what I came up with is a wet well (hole) in the
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 2, 2009
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Pete,

              Thanks for this, I was thinking about this today (when I should have
              been thinking of other things) what I came up with is a wet well
              (hole) in the middle of the model in which is sat a circular metal
              can with a vertical, central spindle. A pop-pop engine or two is set
              up to discharge tangentially into the can and so set the water in the
              can spinning. The drive is from a vaned disc mounted on the centre
              spindle. The reason for the wet well is cooling. Pop pop and fluid
              drive all in one.

              I must add this to my ever lengthening list of pop-pop projects
              unless of course someone gives me a reason why it won't work.

              I am very game to help with the Claremont project & by then should
              know a lot more and have honed my hard soldering skills. At the
              moment I am looking into electro etching brass components. There are
              always distractions !

              Dick


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Dick,
              >
              >
              >
              > Fulton had steering and other problems on his original boat. The
              1807
              > version was somewhere between 133ft - 142ft long and had a beam of
              13ft.
              > It was steered by rudder & tiller. The boat was powered by a 20 hp
              > vertical, rotary, condensing Boulton & Watt engine. The boiler was
              > approximately 20ft long with an 8ft by 7ft cross-section. It was
              > fabricated from copper plate. It is thought that Paul Revere
              provided
              > the copper plate to the company that fabricated the boiler for
              Fulton.
              >
              >
              >
              > In the first season of service they found the boat to be very
              unstable
              > and extremely difficult to steer. In addition the exposed
              paddlewheels
              > became "targets" for the Captains of the sailing ships on the river.
              >
              >
              >
              > During the winter of 1807-08 Fulton enlarged the boat to
              approximately
              > 150ft and an 18ft beam. He added a ship's wheel and pulleys for
              > steering, shroud over the paddlewheels for protection and to
              minimize
              > spraying the passengers. Addition sleeping berths, a galley,
              women's and
              > men's lounges were also added. He called the 1808 version of his
              boat
              > "The North River of Clermont". In history we know it as the
              CLERMONT.
              >
              > The North River was the early name the Hudson River and Clermont
              was the
              > estate of Robert Livingston and the boat's home port.
              >
              >
              >
              > So much for the brief history lesson..
              >
              >
              >
              > Are you game to work on a paddlewheel scheme in anticipation of
              putting
              > a Pop-Pop Clermont together? For a reference point a 16 inch boat
              would
              > have paddlewheels of approximateely 1.6 inches in diameter. The easy
              > math is that the North River was 150ft long with paddlewheels 15ft
              in
              > diameter or a ratio of 10:1.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Pete
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Pete,
              > >
              > > We have an old (1947) side wheeler working around here called the
              > > Waverly. The hull is very long and narrow. The wheels are on a
              > > shaft with a horizontal steam engine in the middle. Talking to one
              > > of the Harwich pilots, it is a nightmare. It accelerates very fast
              > > and stops fast, but has no steerage way until moving quite
              quickly.
              > > Turning circle is huge. All this makes docking difficuilt
              especially
              > > in a tide or high wind. They have thought of fitting a bow
              thruster
              > > or even a bow rudder, but there is a reluctance to mess about
              with a
              > > ship this old. Will probably stay with a skipper with nerves of
              steel!
              > >
              > > http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/
              > >
              > > I do appreciate the lure of the difficuilt - why else am I messing
              > > around with pop-pops instead of something more efficient,
              > > conventional and off the shelf.
              > >
              > > Dick
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." georgeyyy@
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Dick...
              > > >
              > > > For the challenge of it all!
              > > >
              > > > This subject evolved out of my interest in Pop-Pops and Robert
              > > Fulton's
              > > > North River of CLERMONT. A couple of years ago I began
              developing a
              > > > CLERMONT pop-pop. My original design was to create a copper and
              > > brass
              > > > pop-pop approximately 16 inches in length. I don't have any
              kind of
              > > a
              > > > woodworking or metal working shop so the design had to be
              relatively
              > > > simple. My design is based on a CAD model that I already had on
              my
              > > PC. I
              > > > began madifying that design to accommodate my pop-pop version.
              The
              > > hull
              > > > design is completed to the point where I needed to come up with
              an
              > > > engine. Conceptually I was goint to use the accepted
              inlet/outlet
              > > > pop-pop engine. The sidewheeler paddles would be free wheeling.
              > > >
              > > > With the recent discussions of spinning pop-pop engines Frank
              > > renewed
              > > > some thoughts on the Fulton sidewheeler that I am designing.
              > > Although
              > > > it's presently on a back burner it's still my intent to build
              as a
              > > > pop-pop. What the final configuration will be I'm not sure. I do
              > > know
              > > > that it will be a model based on the CLERMONT with some "poetic
              > > > liberties" taken. It will be fabricated in copper and brass for
              > > personal
              > > > aesthetic appeal. I would like to use the finished boat as a
              display
              > > > model.
              > > >
              > > > I created a digital model of a coiled tube engine and a barrel
              > > design
              > > > based on Dan Noyes's ideas. Personally I like the barrel design
              as
              > > it
              > > > lends to the original Fulton boat design. I see three options
              for
              > > > propelling the boat:
              > > >
              > > > * the standard inlet/outlet pop-pop design * freewheeling
              > > > paddlewheels withe the pop-pop engine exhaust directed towards
              the
              > > > buckets on the paddlewheel. That might "forde" the paddles to
              turn
              > > and
              > > > move the boat forward * integrate pop-pop engine exhausts into
              > > the
              > > > paddlewheels. they would spin much in the same manner as the
              > > spinning
              > > > lawn sprinkler.
              > > >
              > > > I hope that this gives you some ideas as to develop a pop-pop
              > > engine for
              > > > use on a sidewheel steamboat. I'm looking to free up some more
              > > design
              > > > time in the Sept-Oct time frame. I'm commited to the work on the
              > > > animated Boulton and Watt steam engine used by Fulton. I'm
              working
              > > with
              > > > the 6 volunteers, the Clermont Historic Site and State of New
              York.
              > > The
              > > > volunteers are building the 1/12 scale model. NY State is
              building
              > > the
              > > > display case and the Clermont Site is providing the space. I'm
              kind
              > > of
              > > > the clerk of the works and doing a lot of the design work.
              working
              > > up to
              > > > 50 hours per week in combination with the volunteering just
              dosen't
              > > give
              > > > me the option of working on the Clermont pop-pop and to justice.
              > > Thus
              > > > the back burner status.
              > > >
              > > > RE: Your Thames sternwheeler;
              > > >
              > > > We have a sidewheeler here on the Hudson (North River) that is
              > > actually
              > > > propelled by the two paddlewheels. The paddlewheels are driven
              by
              > > > hydraulic motors. Each wheel can act independently of each
              other.
              > > They
              > > > can be used to help steer the boat. In fact, they fan have one
              wheel
              > > > going forward the other going in reverse. This configuration
              allows
              > > the
              > > > bost to turn 180° on the theoretical center of the paddle
              wheels'
              > > > axis.
              > > >
              > > > Note: I have created a new photo folder called Clermont Pop-
              Pop. It
              > > now
              > > > contains pix of some of my ideas. Feel free to add any photos
              > > directly
              > > > related to a Clermont pop-pop model. THANKS
              > > >
              > > > regards,
              > > >
              > > > Pete
              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi all,
              > > > >
              > > > > why power the paddle wheel?
              > > > > There is a tourist boat operating on the Thames. This looks
              like a
              > > > > Missisippi river boat. It is powered by propeller, the stern
              wheel
              > > > just
              > > > > freewheels in the water quite realistically. When the boat
              stops,
              > > so
              > > > > does the wheel.
              > > > >
              > > > > Dick
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.