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Question for Daryl

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  • Frank McNeill
    Hi Daryl and all, Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat? The
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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      Hi Daryl and all,

      Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
      torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
      The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the bottom
      of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
      rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
      speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
      with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.

      Old Frank
    • Pete B.
      Hi Frank, Your putt-putt Paddlewheel is an intereting concept. Not so much for my FULTON s FOLLOWERS as for the copper & brass Clermont that I had been
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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        Hi Frank,

        Your putt-putt Paddlewheel is an intereting concept. Not so much for
        my FULTON's FOLLOWERS as for the copper & brass Clermont that I had
        been designing but put on hold.

        The FULTON's FOLLOWERS project is my primary focus at present. I'm
        working 45-50 hours per week plus some renovation on our daughter's
        and our house. I am clerk of the works on the Fulton engine project.
        I
        am also doing some of the design work on the paddlewheel
        construction
        & hull. The project is going nicely. The 6 members of the Followers
        are located in FL, MD, NY & MA so coordination is critical.

        I'm presently working with NY State on the design of the Display
        cadinet. They have all but committed to funding it. I hope it goes
        through as the recent quote on just the vitrine (display dome) is
        $850. That would put more than a big dent in my $1000 grant that I
        was
        awarded by the state. At present the State is the pacing piece of
        the
        puzzle. The 7 of us are donating our time and materials to the
        project. The cost of the vitrine isn't in our budget. If anyone is
        interested I can write more. I'll have to do some updating at the
        FULTON"S FOLLOWERS Group Site.

        I'll upload a few of our more recent photos. under a
        folder "FULTON's
        FOLLOWERS"

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Daryl and all,
        >
        > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
        > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
        > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
        bottom
        > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel
        by a
        > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
        > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
        through
        > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
        >
        > Old Frank
        >
      • Jean-Yves Renaud
        Hi Frank. Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely) with Daryl on
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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          Hi Frank.
          Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
          international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
          with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
          various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque
          developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one which is
          415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
          0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you
          must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think it is
          feasible.
          Jean-Yves

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Daryl and all,
          >
          > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
          > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
          > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the bottom
          > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
          > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
          > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
          > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
          >
          > Old Frank
          >
        • Jean-Yves Renaud
          For those who have not yet adopted the metric system: 415 microNewton meters=306 micro.ft.lb. ... torque ... is ... you ... is ... boat? ... bottom ... by a
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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            For those who have not yet adopted the metric system: 415 microNewton
            meters=306 micro.ft.lb.

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
            <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Frank.
            > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
            > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
            > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
            > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the
            torque
            > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one which
            is
            > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
            > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels
            you
            > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think it
            is
            > feasible.
            > Jean-Yves
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Daryl and all,
            > >
            > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
            > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop
            boat?
            > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
            bottom
            > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel
            by a
            > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
            > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
            through
            > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
            > >
            > > Old Frank
            > >
            >
          • David Halfpenny
            Almost Jean-Yves It is 306 micro foot pounds-force. Which I m sure is what you meant. David 1/2d ... From: Jean-Yves Renaud Sent:
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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              Almost Jean-Yves

              It is 306 micro foot pounds-force.

              Which I'm sure is what you meant.

              David 1/2d



              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:30 PM
              To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl

              > For those who have not yet adopted the metric system: 415 microNewton
              > meters=306 micro.ft.lb.
              >
            • Frank McNeill
              Hmmm — Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture. Old Frank
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 25, 2009
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                Hmmm —

                Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels
                and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.

                Old Frank ;-)

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Frank.
                > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
                > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque
                > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one which is
                > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you
                > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think it is
                > feasible.
                > Jean-Yves
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Daryl and all,
                > >
                > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the bottom
                > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
                > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                > >
                > > Old Frank
                > >
                >
              • Daryl Foster
                Hey Frank,   You can be thankfull I was of line when you asked your question so Jean-Yves could give you a sensible answer. My reply would have been a dumb
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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                  Hey Frank,
                   
                  You can be thankfull I was of line when you asked your question so Jean-Yves could give you a sensible answer. My reply would have been a dumb look and I don't know how to email them yet.
                   
                  However, have you seen Jeff Bindon's putt putt driven paddle wheel/waterwheel? Can't remember if it was posted to this forum or not. My thought would be to use his idea and direct the water jets from a putt putt engine at the paddle wheel. The jets could act on the wheel as well as on the boat and with a decent engine should move it along OK. Could make a nice wake effect too and nothing lost to friction.
                   
                  Jeff's original paddle wheel has been replaced by something a bit more elaborate and fun.
                  A shot video clip is attached. If I can find it there is a link to a longer version.

                  --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                  From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                  Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Question for Daryl
                  To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 12:52 PM

                  Hi Daryl and all,
                  
                  Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                  torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                  The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the bottom
                  of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
                  rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                  speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                  with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                  
                  Old Frank 
                  
                  
                  
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                • Daryl Foster
                  Frank.   Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon s marvelous machine.   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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                    Frank.
                     
                    Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous machine.
                     


                    --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                    From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                    Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                    To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM

                    Hmmm —
                    
                    Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels
                    and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                    
                    Old Frank ;-)
                    
                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                    <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Frank.
                    > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an 
                    > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely) 
                    > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for 
                    > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque
                    
                    > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one which is 
                    > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then 
                    > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you 
                    > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think it is 
                    > feasible.
                    > Jean-Yves 
                    > 
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" 
                    > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Daryl and all,
                    > > 
                    > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                    > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                    > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                    bottom
                    > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
                    > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                    > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                    > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                    > > 
                    > > Old Frank
                    > >
                    >
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    ------------------------------------
                    
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                  • Frank McNeill
                    Thanks for the videos Daryl. Don t recall having seen them before. Go to http://www.redrok.com/images/scrollcw.gif for an animation of a scroll compressor.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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                      Thanks for the videos Daryl. Don't recall having seen them before.
                      Go to http://www.redrok.com/images/scrollcw.gif for an animation of a
                      scroll compressor. Pete and I have exchanged emails about using a tiny
                      scroll expander as a steam or hot air engine for a model boat. Flame
                      would heat the flat exterior of the stationary side of an expander to
                      draw air or water in at the center and drive the wobbling side so it
                      would turn a shaft via crank pin or eccentric bearing.
                      Efforts to interest manufacturers have obviously failed. If they had
                      succeeded, We would probably have started a scroll steamboats group by
                      now.

                      Best wishes, Frank




                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                      <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Frank.
                      >  
                      > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous machine.
                      >  
                      > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                      > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                      > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                      > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                      >
                      > Hmmm —
                      >
                      > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels
                      > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                      >
                      > Old Frank ;-)
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                      > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Frank.
                      > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                      > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
                      > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                      > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque
                      >
                      > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                      which is
                      > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                      > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you
                      > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think
                      it is
                      > > feasible.
                      > > Jean-Yves
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                      > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                      > > >
                      > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                      > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                      > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                      > bottom
                      > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel
                      by a
                      > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                      > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                      > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                      > > >
                      > > > Old Frank
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________________________
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                      your favourite sites. Download it now at
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                    • KENNETH TAIT SR.
                      Hay!!!  That is great, I like it.                                      Papa Tait Seekonk,Ma. ... From: Daryl Foster
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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                        Hay!!!  That is great, I like it.

                                                             Papa Tait Seekonk,Ma.



                        --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Daryl Foster <darylcanada73@...> wrote:

                        From: Daryl Foster <darylcanada73@...>
                        Subject: Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                        To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 4:21 AM

                        Frank.
                         
                        Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous machine.
                         


                        --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@ gmail.com> wrote:
                        From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@ gmail.com>
                        Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats ] Re: Question for Daryl
                        To: pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com
                        Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM

                        Hmmm —

                        Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels
                        and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.

                        Old Frank ;-)

                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                        <boite.de.j-y@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Frank.
                        > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                        > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
                        > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                        > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque

                        > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one which is
                        > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                        > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you
                        > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think it is
                        > feasible.
                        > Jean-Yves
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Frank McNeill"
                        > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Daryl and all,
                        > >
                        > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                        > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                        > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                        bottom
                        > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel by a
                        > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                        > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                        > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                        > >
                        > > Old Frank
                        > >
                        >




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                      • Frank McNeill
                        Hi Daryl, Your videos reminded me of my only attempt to build a steam engine. I had cobbled up several rubber band powered paddle wheel boats and considered
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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                          Hi Daryl,

                          Your videos reminded me of my only attempt to build a steam engine.
                          I had cobbled up several rubber band powered paddle wheel boats and
                          considered the possibility for using steam instead of a rubber band to
                          turn a paddle wheel. One day when my parents were away from home, I
                          cobbled up a steam engine from a paddle wheel with nails driven in at
                          both sides for support, a tin can with a screw top, a cork, a piece of
                          copper tubing and my parents' folding Coleman camp stove.
                          I set up shop behind some trees in the backyard and had just built up
                          enough steam to turn the paddle wheel, when the can, cork and tubing
                          took off like a rocket snf sailed over the trees and the house and
                          into our front yard.
                          I ran around to get rid of the evidence and discovered that my stuff
                          had almost hit my father after he drove up and was getting out of our
                          old car. I expected the worst, but what I actually got several months
                          later was a toy steam engine on Christmas morning.

                          Old Frank



                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                          <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Frank.
                          >  
                          > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous machine.
                          >  
                          > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                          > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                          > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                          > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                          >
                          > Hmmm —
                          >
                          > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more funnels
                          > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                          >
                          > Old Frank ;-)
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                          > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Frank.
                          > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                          > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked (remotely)
                          > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                          > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the torque
                          >
                          > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                          which is
                          > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                          > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels you
                          > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think
                          it is
                          > > feasible.
                          > > Jean-Yves
                          > >
                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                          > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                          > > >
                          > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide enough
                          > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop boat?
                          > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                          > bottom
                          > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle wheel
                          by a
                          > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                          > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow through
                          > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                          > > >
                          > > > Old Frank
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________________
                          > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark
                          your favourite sites. Download it now at
                          > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
                          >
                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi, this video is brilliant. Thanks to whoever suggested using guttering to make a pop-pop track. I I got a 2m length and some end caps. So impressed thinking
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi,
                            this video is brilliant.

                            Thanks to whoever suggested using guttering to make a pop-pop track. I
                            I got a 2m length and some end caps. So impressed thinking of putting
                            up allround INSIDE my garage. I intend to do some fairs this summer
                            and do pop-pop racing on track made of several 3Metre lengths

                            This has shown that mk2 minipopop runs normally, then a one second
                            spurt, then runs normally this sequence seems to repeat itself. Why?

                            I have also run all my fleet down this track, the slowest is a
                            Rattendeep Titanic at 20seconds.

                            I will post a video when I get some daylight to make it.

                            Dick



                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                            <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Frank.
                            >  
                            > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous
                            machine.
                            >  
                            > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en
                            >
                            >
                            > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                            > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                            > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                            > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                            >
                            > Hmmm —
                            >
                            > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more
                            funnels
                            > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                            >
                            > Old Frank ;-)
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                            > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Frank.
                            > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                            > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked
                            (remotely)
                            > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                            > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the
                            torque
                            >
                            > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                            which is
                            > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                            > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels
                            you
                            > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think
                            it is
                            > > feasible.
                            > > Jean-Yves
                            > >
                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                            > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                            > > >
                            > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide
                            enough
                            > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop
                            boat?
                            > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                            > bottom
                            > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle
                            wheel by a
                            > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                            > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
                            through
                            > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                            > > >
                            > > > Old Frank
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            __________________________________________________________________
                            > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
                            bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
                            > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
                            >
                          • Richard Mundy
                            Hi all/Frank, I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart from the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power from the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi all/Frank,

                              I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart from
                              the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                              from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware is
                              new.
                              I realise the power output is small, but would it be possible to
                              replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                              The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob watches
                              on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?

                              Dick


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                              <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Frank.
                              >  
                              > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous
                              machine.
                              >  
                              > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Frank McNeill <frankmcneilll@...>
                              > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                              > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                              >
                              > Hmmm —
                              >
                              > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more
                              funnels
                              > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                              >
                              > Old Frank ;-)
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                              > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Frank.
                              > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                              > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked
                              (remotely)
                              > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                              > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the
                              torque
                              >
                              > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                              which is
                              > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                              > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels
                              you
                              > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think
                              it is
                              > > feasible.
                              > > Jean-Yves
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                              > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                              > > >
                              > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide
                              enough
                              > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop
                              boat?
                              > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                              > bottom
                              > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle
                              wheel by a
                              > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                              > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
                              through
                              > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                              > > >
                              > > > Old Frank
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              __________________________________________________________________
                              > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
                              bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
                              > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
                              >
                            • Pete B.
                              Hi Dick, The gutters weren t my original idea. When the discussion of pop-pop races came up. A light bulb turned on. At that point I couldn t remember whether
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Hi Dick,

                                The gutters weren't my original idea. When the discussion of pop-pop races came up. A light bulb turned on. At that point I couldn't remember whether it was something that I had thought about before or seen before. As the gears came up to speed I remembers reading or hearing about the "Rainguuter Regattas" in Boy Scouting. My first GOOGLE turned up the video with the sad pop-pop demo. Then I remembered the Raingutter Regatta name. It was easy from there.

                                If you GOOGLE Raingutter Regatta you will find that most generally there were two troughs to race lung powered sailboats. What I did was to take the regatta to the next level with pop-pops. and 4 parallel troughs. Because the boats are self propelled you no longer need the extra space for the wind source following the boat the length of the course. The best design would be made utilizing the true "U" cross section plastic gutters. with the sealing, snap on end caps.  The straight sides would facilitate mechanically fastening the gutters together for extra rigidity. Something that I hadn't really thought about was a petcock for draining. My thought was simply remove one of the end caps for drainage. The whole design is rather simple and easily transportable. Have Fun!

                                RE: Pulse engine powered sidewheeler. The rotary pulse engine is attractive for the Pop-Pop Clermont that I was working on. Unfortunatly I will be involved for 6-8 more months on the FULTON's FOLLOWERS project. I hope to get back to the Pop-Pop Clermont then. Is there anyone out there who might have an interest in developing Pop-Pop paddlewheels? I would be interested in working with you some time next Fall. The platform wouldn't have to be the North River CLERMONT. It could be a simpiler more basic boat like Fulton's Paris boat. The goal would be to develop a working model of paddlewheel Pop-Pop boat. For reference, hte copper hull Clermont that I am developing is approximately 16 inches long and 3 inches wide.

                                Please send me an e-mail if interested. We can go from there!

                                Regards,

                                Pete


                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                > this video is brilliant.
                                >
                                > Thanks to whoever suggested using guttering to make a pop-pop track. I
                                > I got a 2m length and some end caps. So impressed thinking of putting
                                > up allround INSIDE my garage. I intend to do some fairs this summer
                                > and do pop-pop racing on track made of several 3Metre lengths
                                >
                                > This has shown that mk2 minipopop runs normally, then a one second
                                > spurt, then runs normally this sequence seems to repeat itself. Why?
                                >
                                > I have also run all my fleet down this track, the slowest is a
                                > Rattendeep Titanic at 20seconds.
                                >
                                > I will post a video when I get some daylight to make it.
                                >
                                > Dick
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                                > darylcanada73@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Frank.
                                > >  
                                > > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous
                                > machine.
                                > >  
                                > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3057228933429887668&hl=en
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill frankmcneilll@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > From: Frank McNeill frankmcneilll@
                                > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                                > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                                > >
                                > > Hmmm —
                                > >
                                > > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more
                                > funnels
                                > > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page picture.
                                > >
                                > > Old Frank ;-)
                                > >
                                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                > > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Frank.
                                > > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept of an
                                > > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked
                                > (remotely)
                                > > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can for
                                > > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm, the
                                > torque
                                > >
                                > > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                                > which is
                                > > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is then
                                > > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle wheels
                                > you
                                > > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I think
                                > it is
                                > > > feasible.
                                > > > Jean-Yves
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                                > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide
                                > enough
                                > > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-pop
                                > boat?
                                > > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through the
                                > > bottom
                                > > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle
                                > wheel by a
                                > > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and less
                                > > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
                                > through
                                > > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Old Frank
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > __________________________________________________________________
                                > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
                                > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
                                > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
                                > >
                                >

                              • Donald Qualls
                                ... I don t think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action depends on the diaphragm moving freely until it s sharply constrained by tension, but it
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Richard Mundy wrote:
                                  > Hi all/Frank,
                                  >
                                  > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart from
                                  > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                                  > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware is
                                  > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be possible to
                                  > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?

                                  I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action depends on
                                  the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by tension,
                                  but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a flywheel,
                                  fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are small
                                  enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You might
                                  possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would then
                                  operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as the
                                  available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for draft
                                  enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.

                                  > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob watches
                                  > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?

                                  Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for the burners.

                                  --
                                  If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                  it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                  Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                  Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                  and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                • darylcanada73
                                  I agree with Donald on this one. It only takes a very small amount of spring tension to stop the diaphragm from moving. I suspect Jeff Bindon s bird was very
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 28, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I agree with Donald on this one. It only takes a very small amount of
                                    spring tension to stop the diaphragm from moving. I suspect Jeff
                                    Bindon's bird was very lightly balanced taking only a slight touch to
                                    raise it.

                                    Some thought has been given to getting electrical power from a putt
                                    putt. Can't remember who to give credit to for this one. An iron wire
                                    on the diaphragm inside a coil would generate some juice. Likewise an
                                    iron wire attached to a flotation device inside the tube could be
                                    made to oscillate inside a coil by the water column movement. Neat!
                                    Putt putt to generator to electric motor to paddle wheel. A Sterling
                                    engine might be more practical.

                                    Can anyone tell me where to buy thin wall aluminum tube in small
                                    ID's. For example 3/8 ID with .014 to .025 wall thickness. Smaller ID
                                    in .014 and larger ID's in .040 and up are readily available.



                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                                    <silent1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                    > > Hi all/Frank,
                                    > >
                                    > > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart
                                    from
                                    > > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                                    > > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware
                                    is
                                    > > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be
                                    possible to
                                    > > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                                    >
                                    > I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action
                                    depends on
                                    > the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by
                                    tension,
                                    > but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a
                                    flywheel,
                                    > fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are
                                    small
                                    > enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You
                                    might
                                    > possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would
                                    then
                                    > operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as
                                    the
                                    > available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for
                                    draft
                                    > enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.
                                    >
                                    > > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob
                                    watches
                                    > > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?
                                    >
                                    > Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for the
                                    burners.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                                    want,
                                    > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                    >
                                    > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                                    http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                    >
                                    > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                    > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                    >
                                  • Frank McNeill
                                    Hi Daryl, To find a source for aluminum tubing, go to the pop-pop steamboats links section, scroll down to a link for Metal Tubing and do a search on the
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 28, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Daryl,

                                      To find a source for aluminum tubing, go to the pop-pop steamboats
                                      links section, scroll down to a link for Metal Tubing and do a search
                                      on the linked website.

                                      Old Frank

                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73"
                                      <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I agree with Donald on this one. It only takes a very small amount of
                                      > spring tension to stop the diaphragm from moving. I suspect Jeff
                                      > Bindon's bird was very lightly balanced taking only a slight touch to
                                      > raise it.
                                      >
                                      > Some thought has been given to getting electrical power from a putt
                                      > putt. Can't remember who to give credit to for this one. An iron wire
                                      > on the diaphragm inside a coil would generate some juice. Likewise an
                                      > iron wire attached to a flotation device inside the tube could be
                                      > made to oscillate inside a coil by the water column movement. Neat!
                                      > Putt putt to generator to electric motor to paddle wheel. A Sterling
                                      > engine might be more practical.
                                      >
                                      > Can anyone tell me where to buy thin wall aluminum tube in small
                                      > ID's. For example 3/8 ID with .014 to .025 wall thickness. Smaller ID
                                      > in .014 and larger ID's in .040 and up are readily available.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                                      > <silent1@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                      > > > Hi all/Frank,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart
                                      > from
                                      > > > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                                      > > > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware
                                      > is
                                      > > > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be
                                      > possible to
                                      > > > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action
                                      > depends on
                                      > > the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by
                                      > tension,
                                      > > but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a
                                      > flywheel,
                                      > > fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are
                                      > small
                                      > > enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You
                                      > might
                                      > > possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would
                                      > then
                                      > > operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as
                                      > the
                                      > > available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for
                                      > draft
                                      > > enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.
                                      > >
                                      > > > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob
                                      > watches
                                      > > > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?
                                      > >
                                      > > Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for the
                                      > burners.
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                                      > want,
                                      > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                      > >
                                      > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                                      > http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                      > >
                                      > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                      > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Richard Mundy
                                      Hi Pete, the rainwater gutter is inspirational whoever thought of it. At the moment with one 2 metre length, it is easy to just tip the water out. If necessary
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 28, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Pete,

                                        the rainwater gutter is inspirational whoever thought of it. At the
                                        moment with one 2 metre length, it is easy to just tip the water out.
                                        If necessary I think a dingy drain could be fitted easily.
                                        I would love to work on a pop-pop paddle wheel.

                                        Dick


                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Dick,
                                        >
                                        > The gutters weren't my original idea. When the discussion of pop-pop
                                        > races came up. A light bulb turned on. At that point I couldn't
                                        remember
                                        > whether it was something that I had thought about before or seen
                                        before.
                                        > As the gears came up to speed I remembers reading or hearing about
                                        the
                                        > "Rainguuter Regattas" in Boy Scouting. My first GOOGLE turned up the
                                        > video with the sad pop-pop demo. Then I remembered the Raingutter
                                        > Regatta name. It was easy from there.
                                        >
                                        > If you GOOGLE Raingutter Regatta you will find that most generally
                                        there
                                        > were two troughs to race lung powered sailboats. What I did was to
                                        take
                                        > the regatta to the next level with pop-pops. and 4 parallel troughs.
                                        > Because the boats are self propelled you no longer need the extra
                                        space
                                        > for the wind source following the boat the length of the course. The
                                        > best design would be made utilizing the true "U" cross section
                                        plastic
                                        > gutters. with the sealing, snap on end caps. The straight sides
                                        would
                                        > facilitate mechanically fastening the gutters together for extra
                                        > rigidity. Something that I hadn't really thought about was a
                                        petcock for
                                        > draining. My thought was simply remove one of the end caps for
                                        drainage.
                                        > The whole design is rather simple and easily transportable. Have
                                        Fun!
                                        >
                                        > RE: Pulse engine powered sidewheeler. The rotary pulse engine is
                                        > attractive for the Pop-Pop Clermont that I was working on.
                                        Unfortunatly
                                        > I will be involved for 6-8 more months on the FULTON's FOLLOWERS
                                        > project. I hope to get back to the Pop-Pop Clermont then. Is there
                                        > anyone out there who might have an interest in developing Pop-Pop
                                        > paddlewheels? I would be interested in working with you some time
                                        next
                                        > Fall. The platform wouldn't have to be the North River CLERMONT. It
                                        > could be a simpiler more basic boat like Fulton's Paris boat. The
                                        goal
                                        > would be to develop a working model of paddlewheel Pop-Pop boat. For
                                        > reference, hte copper hull Clermont that I am developing is
                                        > approximately 16 inches long and 3 inches wide.
                                        >
                                        > Please send me an e-mail if interested. We can go from there!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Pete
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                        > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi,
                                        > > this video is brilliant.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks to whoever suggested using guttering to make a pop-pop
                                        track. I
                                        > > I got a 2m length and some end caps. So impressed thinking of
                                        putting
                                        > > up allround INSIDE my garage. I intend to do some fairs this
                                        summer
                                        > > and do pop-pop racing on track made of several 3Metre lengths
                                        > >
                                        > > This has shown that mk2 minipopop runs normally, then a one second
                                        > > spurt, then runs normally this sequence seems to repeat itself.
                                        Why?
                                        > >
                                        > > I have also run all my fleet down this track, the slowest is a
                                        > > Rattendeep Titanic at 20seconds.
                                        > >
                                        > > I will post a video when I get some daylight to make it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Dick
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Daryl Foster
                                        > > darylcanada73@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Frank.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Here is the link to a better version of Jeff Bindon's marvelous
                                        > > machine.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-
                                        3057228933429887668&hl=en
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Frank McNeill frankmcneilll@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From: Frank McNeill frankmcneilll@
                                        > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Question for Daryl
                                        > > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Received: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hmmm —
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Looks like more pop-pop engines might be needed- meaning more
                                        > > funnels
                                        > > > and a bigger boat— like the one shown in the new home page
                                        > picture.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Old Frank ;-)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                        > > > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Frank.
                                        > > > > Let me answer for Daryl as I came up first with the concept
                                        of an
                                        > > > > international spinning pop-pop competition, and I worked
                                        > > (remotely)
                                        > > > > with Daryl on this project. I measured the torque of the can
                                        for
                                        > > > > various drafts and rpm. When Daryl's can rotates at 120rpm,
                                        the
                                        > > torque
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > developped by its pop-pop engine is equal to the friction one
                                        > > which is
                                        > > > > 415microNewton meters. The power developped by the engine is
                                        then
                                        > > > > 0,52mW. If you want to use this power to drive the paddle
                                        wheels
                                        > > you
                                        > > > > must find an arrangement which allows to delete the can. I
                                        think
                                        > > it is
                                        > > > > feasible.
                                        > > > > Jean-Yves
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                                        > > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Hi Daryl and all,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Do you think your 120 RPM Putt Putt in a can might provide
                                        > > enough
                                        > > > > > torque for driving a paddle wheel or two on a modular pop-
                                        pop
                                        > > boat?
                                        > > > > > The Putt Putt in a can might be supported in a hole through
                                        the
                                        > > > bottom
                                        > > > > > of a raft, as previously described and coupled to a paddle
                                        > > wheel by a
                                        > > > > > rubber band belt or a bead chain to provide more torque and
                                        less
                                        > > > > > speed. This should get the attention of Pete Baker to follow
                                        > > through
                                        > > > > > with on his Google discussion group Fulton's Followers.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Old Frank
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > __________________________________________________________________
                                        > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
                                        > > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
                                        > > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Richard Mundy
                                        Hi Donald, Thanks for clearing this up I thought they were a strange shape for cooling. AS for the piston idea, I thnk you are right, stay with a diaphragm. In
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                          Hi Donald,

                                          Thanks for clearing this up I thought they were a strange shape for
                                          cooling.
                                          AS for the piston idea, I thnk you are right, stay with a diaphragm.
                                          In any case the power output would be minute.

                                          Dick
                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                                          <silent1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                          > > Hi all/Frank,
                                          > >
                                          > > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart
                                          from
                                          > > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                                          > > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware
                                          is
                                          > > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be
                                          possible to
                                          > > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                                          >
                                          > I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action
                                          depends on
                                          > the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by
                                          tension,
                                          > but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a
                                          flywheel,
                                          > fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are
                                          small
                                          > enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You
                                          might
                                          > possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would
                                          then
                                          > operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as
                                          the
                                          > available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for
                                          draft
                                          > enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.
                                          >
                                          > > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob
                                          watches
                                          > > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?
                                          >
                                          > Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for the
                                          burners.
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                                          want,
                                          > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                          >
                                          > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                                          http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                          >
                                          > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                          > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                          >
                                        • Richard Mundy
                                          Hi Daryl, Electric pop-pop, I like it. Has anyone experimented with using a more viscous fluid than water? I suggest this as efficiency seems to drop off as
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                            Hi Daryl,

                                            Electric pop-pop, I like it. Has anyone experimented with using a
                                            more viscous fluid than water? I suggest this as efficiency seems to
                                            drop off as engine size grows. If The engine is not directly used for
                                            propulsion, the working fluid could be anything.

                                            The aluminium tube, no idea, there are many different grades, so you
                                            might find the right size, but it be no good for your purpose.
                                            Model shop, Aluminium stock holders? You could get it extruded, but
                                            this would probably not be economic for less than a couple of miles.

                                            Dick

                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "darylcanada73"
                                            <darylcanada73@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I agree with Donald on this one. It only takes a very small amount
                                            of
                                            > spring tension to stop the diaphragm from moving. I suspect Jeff
                                            > Bindon's bird was very lightly balanced taking only a slight touch
                                            to
                                            > raise it.
                                            >
                                            > Some thought has been given to getting electrical power from a putt
                                            > putt. Can't remember who to give credit to for this one. An iron
                                            wire
                                            > on the diaphragm inside a coil would generate some juice. Likewise
                                            an
                                            > iron wire attached to a flotation device inside the tube could be
                                            > made to oscillate inside a coil by the water column movement.
                                            Neat!
                                            > Putt putt to generator to electric motor to paddle wheel. A
                                            Sterling
                                            > engine might be more practical.
                                            >
                                            > Can anyone tell me where to buy thin wall aluminum tube in small
                                            > ID's. For example 3/8 ID with .014 to .025 wall thickness. Smaller
                                            ID
                                            > in .014 and larger ID's in .040 and up are readily available.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                                            > <silent1@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                            > > > Hi all/Frank,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart
                                            > from
                                            > > > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some
                                            power
                                            > > > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware
                                            > is
                                            > > > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be
                                            > possible to
                                            > > > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                                            > >
                                            > > I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action
                                            > depends on
                                            > > the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by
                                            > tension,
                                            > > but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a
                                            > flywheel,
                                            > > fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are
                                            > small
                                            > > enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You
                                            > might
                                            > > possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would
                                            > then
                                            > > operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as
                                            > the
                                            > > available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for
                                            > draft
                                            > > enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.
                                            > >
                                            > > > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob
                                            > watches
                                            > > > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?
                                            > >
                                            > > Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for
                                            the
                                            > burners.
                                            > >
                                            > > --
                                            > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                                            > want,
                                            > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                            > >
                                            > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                                            > http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                            > >
                                            > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                            > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • steelbutcher
                                            I ve been following this thread with great interest. When the idea of incorporating a piston came up, I remembered a candle powered heat exchanged drive
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 6 8:09 AM
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                                              I've been following this thread with great interest. When the idea of incorporating a piston came up, I remembered a candle powered heat exchanged drive mechanism called a "thermal acoustic" engine. This candle powered engine operates on the rapid expansion and contraction of air. Aren't we really trying to do the same thing with water? The link will take you to a YouTube video of this engine.

                                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjjkj-UGboM&feature=related

                                              Don
                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                              > > Hi all/Frank,
                                              > >
                                              > > I have been having another look at Jeff Bindons machine. Apart from
                                              > > the transparent diaphragms, he seems to have harnessed some power
                                              > > from the diaphragm (the nodding bit) which as far as I am aware is
                                              > > new. I realise the power output is small, but would it be possible to
                                              > > replace the diaphragm with a spring and a piston?
                                              >
                                              > I don't think a piston would work, because the pop-pop action depends on
                                              > the diaphragm moving freely until it's sharply constrained by tension,
                                              > but it might be possible to use a small ratchet to drive a flywheel,
                                              > fan, etc. as long as the reciprocating mass and resistance are small
                                              > enough not to interfere with the movement of the diaphragm. You might
                                              > possibly be able to attach a lever to the diaphragm, which would then
                                              > operate a crankshaft (movement magnified by the leverage, even as the
                                              > available force is reduced), for something like a fan, either for draft
                                              > enhancement (to get a hotter flame) or to cool something.
                                              >
                                              > > The other intriguing aspect is the devices that look like fob watches
                                              > > on the outlet tubes, are these for cooling?
                                              >
                                              > Took me a while to figure those, too -- they're fuel tanks for the burners.
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                              > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                              >
                                              > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                              >
                                              > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                              > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                              >
                                            • steelbutcher
                                              Good morning, I think it is a pop pop engine. Take a look at the link at you ll find in a previous message for another similar engine using a graphite piston.
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 7 10:26 AM
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                                                Good morning,

                                                I think it is a pop pop engine. Take a look at the link at you'll find in a previous message for another similar engine using a graphite piston. I wonder if an engine could be made to resonate using steam? I'm imagining a longer tube might be required to allow for greater piston travel. I like being able to see exactly what's going on during the engine's operation.

                                                Don in Santa Rosa


                                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "steelbutcher" <N61W160@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I've been following this thread with great interest. When the idea of incorporating a piston came up, I remembered a candle powered heat exchanged drive mechanism called a "thermal acoustic" engine. This candle powered engine operates on the rapid expansion and contraction of air. Aren't we really trying to do the same thing with water? The link will take you to a YouTube video of this engine.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjjkj-UGboM&feature=related
                                                >
                                                > Don
                                                >
                                              • Donald Qualls
                                                Actually, thermoacoustic is another name for a lamina flow (*not* laminar flow) Stirling engine -- that s one without a displacer and in which the
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 7 12:58 PM
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                                                  Actually, "thermoacoustic" is another name for a lamina flow (*not*
                                                  "laminar" flow) Stirling engine -- that's one without a displacer and in
                                                  which the regenerator is "beyond the hot end" rather than inside the
                                                  displacer or between hot and cold. They're called this, I think,
                                                  because the operation is partly based on standing pressure waves inside
                                                  the engine, which are similar to sound waves.

                                                  A pop-pop, running with water, is somewhat similar to a free-piston
                                                  lamina flow Stirling, but there's a phase change inolved (water flashing
                                                  to steam and recondensing) in addition to expansion and contraction of
                                                  air. Still, it's interesting to contemplate if a thermoacoustic engine
                                                  could operate as a direct pump with pipes attached and act like a
                                                  pop-pop in terms of thrust generation...

                                                  steelbutcher wrote:
                                                  > Good morning,
                                                  >
                                                  > I think it is a pop pop engine. Take a look at the link at you'll
                                                  > find in a previous message for another similar engine using a
                                                  > graphite piston. I wonder if an engine could be made to resonate
                                                  > using steam? I'm imagining a longer tube might be required to allow
                                                  > for greater piston travel. I like being able to see exactly what's
                                                  > going on during the engine's operation.
                                                  >
                                                  > Don in Santa Rosa
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "steelbutcher"
                                                  > <N61W160@...> wrote:
                                                  >> I've been following this thread with great interest. When the idea
                                                  >> of incorporating a piston came up, I remembered a candle powered
                                                  >> heat exchanged drive mechanism called a "thermal acoustic" engine.
                                                  >> This candle powered engine operates on the rapid expansion and
                                                  >> contraction of air. Aren't we really trying to do the same thing
                                                  >> with water? The link will take you to a YouTube video of this
                                                  >> engine.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjjkj-UGboM&feature=related
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Don
                                                  >>


                                                  --
                                                  If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                                  it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                                  Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                                  Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                                  and don't expect them to be perfect.
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