Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Pop-Pop Boats in the News

Expand Messages
  • Frank McNeill
    Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby? Both of the recalled
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
      Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
      Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
      licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
      they have been or what they have gotten into.

      Frank

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      <coracles18@...> wrote:
      >
      > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or
      > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
      > Dick
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
      > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
      > >
      > > old Frank
      > >
      >
    • Richard Mundy
      Hi Frank, its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very well. Quality is crap tho. Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Frank,
        its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
        well. Quality is crap tho.
        Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
        in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
        like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
        unless they start to sell big time.
        I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
        first to avoid catching anything :-)
        Dick


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
        > Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
        > Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
        > licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
        > they have been or what they have gotten into.
        >
        > Frank
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
        lick or
        > > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
        > > Dick
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
        > > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
        > > >
        > > > old Frank
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Frank McNeill
        Hi Dick, The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but can t be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of tinplate, or
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Dick,

          The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
          can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
          tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are used.
          I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a kid.
          It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
          cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings about
          close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with just
          about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
          later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree of
          immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
          As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied the
          following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail address"

          Toys NOT Made in China
          Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will last
          www.nmctoys.com
          Classic Yacht Tenders
          Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
          DowneastPeapods.com
          Gorgeous Wood Toys
          Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
          www.DesignForPlay.com
          Waiting Room Toy Revolt
          Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
          www.SomethingForKids.com
          Haba Toys at Mod Mama
          Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and more
          modmama.com/toys.html

          Best wishes, Frank


          On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
          > Hi Frank,
          > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
          > well. Quality is crap tho.
          > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
          > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
          > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
          > unless they start to sell big time.
          > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
          > first to avoid catching anything :-)
          > Dick
          >
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
          >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
          >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
          >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
          >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
          >>
          >> Frank
          >>
          >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          >> <coracles18@> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
          > lick or
          >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
          >> > Dick
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
          >> > >
          >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
          >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
          >> > >
          >> > > old Frank
          >> > >
          >> >
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Richard Mundy
          Hi Frank, in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges etc. I had these toys as a kid, can t remember any accidents to me or my friends.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Frank,
            in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
            etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
            my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
            TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
            Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
            I think I may be going down with something!
            Dick

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
            <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Dick,
            >
            > The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
            > can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
            > tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
            used.
            > I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
            kid.
            > It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
            > cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
            about
            > close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
            just
            > about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
            > later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
            of
            > immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
            > As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
            the
            > following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
            address"
            >
            > Toys NOT Made in China
            > Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
            last
            > www.nmctoys.com
            > Classic Yacht Tenders
            > Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
            > DowneastPeapods.com
            > Gorgeous Wood Toys
            > Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
            > www.DesignForPlay.com
            > Waiting Room Toy Revolt
            > Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
            > www.SomethingForKids.com
            > Haba Toys at Mod Mama
            > Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
            more
            > modmama.com/toys.html
            >
            > Best wishes, Frank
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
            wrote:
            > > Hi Frank,
            > > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
            > > well. Quality is crap tho.
            > > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
            children
            > > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
            kids
            > > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
            this
            > > unless they start to sell big time.
            > > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
            > > first to avoid catching anything :-)
            > > Dick
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
            > >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
            Welby?
            > >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
            > >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
            where
            > >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
            > >>
            > >> Frank
            > >>
            > >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > >> <coracles18@> wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
            > > lick or
            > >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
            > >> > Dick
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
            encourage
            > >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
            > >> > >
            > >> > > old Frank
            > >> > >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Frank McNeill
            Hi Dick, My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek known by
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Dick,

              My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
              would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek
              known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
              throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
              currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production and
              marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
              evidence of any results to report to date.

              Best wishes, Frank




              On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
              > Hi Frank,
              > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
              > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
              > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
              > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
              > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
              > I think I may be going down with something!
              > Dick
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
              > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hi Dick,
              >>
              >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
              >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
              >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
              > used.
              >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
              > kid.
              >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
              >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
              > about
              >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
              > just
              >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
              >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
              > of
              >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
              >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
              > the
              >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
              > address"
              >>
              >> Toys NOT Made in China
              >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
              > last
              >> www.nmctoys.com
              >> Classic Yacht Tenders
              >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
              >> DowneastPeapods.com
              >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
              >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
              >> www.DesignForPlay.com
              >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
              >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
              >> www.SomethingForKids.com
              >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
              >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
              > more
              >> modmama.com/toys.html
              >>
              >> Best wishes, Frank
              >>
              >>
              >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
              > wrote:
              >> > Hi Frank,
              >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
              >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
              >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
              > children
              >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
              > kids
              >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
              > this
              >> > unless they start to sell big time.
              >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
              >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
              >> > Dick
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
              >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
              > Welby?
              >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
              >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
              > where
              >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
              >> >>
              >> >> Frank
              >> >>
              >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
              >> >> >
              >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
              >> > lick or
              >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
              >> >> > Dick
              >> >> >
              >> >> >
              >> >> >
              >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              >> >> > >
              >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
              > encourage
              >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
              >> >> > >
              >> >> > > old Frank
              >> >> > >
              >> >> >
              >> >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Richard Mundy
              Hi Frank, I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something a little heavier
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Frank,
                I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something
                a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model shop,
                or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.

                On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from Delphion
                (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull inventions,
                fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went to
                the expence of patenting something that didn't work.

                Dick





                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Dick,
                >
                > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                creek
                > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
                > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production
                and
                > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
                > evidence of any results to report to date.
                >
                > Best wishes, Frank
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                wrote:
                > > Hi Frank,
                > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                edges
                > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                me or
                > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                and
                > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                > > I think I may be going down with something!
                > > Dick
                > >
                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Hi Dick,
                > >>
                > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                but
                > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made
                of
                > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                > > used.
                > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                > > kid.
                > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in
                a
                > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                > > about
                > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                > > just
                > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to
                us
                > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                degree
                > > of
                > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                > > the
                > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                > > address"
                > >>
                > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                > > last
                > >> www.nmctoys.com
                > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                shop.
                > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                > > more
                > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                > >>
                > >> Best wishes, Frank
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                > > wrote:
                > >> > Hi Frank,
                > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                very
                > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                > > children
                > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                big
                > > kids
                > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                > > this
                > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                hanky
                > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                > >> > Dick
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                produced by
                > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                > > Welby?
                > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As
                for
                > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                > > where
                > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Frank
                > >> >>
                > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                > >> >> >
                > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                not to
                > >> > lick or
                > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                > >> >> > Dick
                > >> >> >
                > >> >> >
                > >> >> >
                > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >> >> > >
                > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                > > encourage
                > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                > >> >> > >
                > >> >> > > old Frank
                > >> >> > >
                > >> >> >
                > >> >>
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > ------------------------------------
                > >> >
                > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • David Halfpenny
                ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM ... Let s hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                  Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM

                  > I should not think he went to
                  > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                  Let's hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of patent
                  applications for perpetual motion machines are submitted.

                  David 1/2d
                • Jean-Yves Renaud
                  Hi Frank and Dick, I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came to
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Frank and Dick,
                    I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter
                    Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came
                    to the same conclusion: In spite of a laudatory bibliography
                    (according to his children) that is easy to find on Internet, the
                    works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                    jets) are not impressive. It is said that Mr Payne and his
                    company "Payne, Inc." got money for years from US Navy and Energy
                    Department. To justify the usefulness of these donations and to get
                    some more ones, Mr Payne had to publish documents and to do
                    conferences. At that game it seems he was excellent, but what do we
                    find in his writings?
                    • Many ideas, formulas, pieces of patents…invented by others.
                    Nevertheless, it must be confessed that Mr Payne said who wrote what.
                    But he could have an ulterior motive in doing that: to improve an
                    apparent credibility.
                    • Many assumptions (assuming that… It is presumed that…)
                    allowing to building demonstrations which really are not.
                    • Impressive equations for the layman, but having sometimes a
                    very remote connection with the subject.
                    • Laws of physics that are invented, or that are well known but
                    modified to justify the result of experiments. Ex: 2/4=2.47 becomes
                    2.0 without justification.
                    • Curves which don't go through measured dots…though these dots
                    follow sometimes a well known law.
                    • A beautiful curve (fig 13 in doc 749153) going through many
                    dots which in fact could be only one dot if we take into account the
                    uncertainty of the measurement.
                    • Hairsplitting around simple experimental laws to make they
                    become complicated.
                    • Gratuitous assertions (ex: P-V diagram) or false ones (ex: in
                    McHugh engine some water is trapped because the tube is raised above
                    the floor of the boiler).
                    • Efficiency prospects which are very very optimistic, though
                    decreasing with years.
                    • Technical non-senses. Ex: to evacuate air, a relief valve
                    suffices. This would mean that the presence of air increases the max
                    pressure in the cycle. On one hand it is not proven, and on the other
                    hand if it was true it would be better to trap air inside.
                    • Reuse from one year to the next one.
                    • Patents enlarged to non realistic possible applications:
                    diverging nozzle, thrust control valve…
                    • Truths hidden for layman. Ex: with a 1" pop-pop engine, a 14
                    foot aluminum (=light) rowboat reached a speed of 1.0 ft/sec. With
                    more common units for non Americans, knowing that the speed evolves
                    with the cubic root of the power, and knowing that such a boat
                    reaches approximately 20 km/h with a 4 kW engine (5.5HP), one
                    thousands of a horse power (less than 1 Watt) suffices to reach 1
                    ft/sec. And if the wind blows in the right direction….

                    This means that only few new and useful things could be gotten from
                    Mr Payne's publications. Yet, according to the enormous means which
                    were available to Payne Inc. some points might have increased the
                    knowledge we have of the pop-pop engine. It's a pity!...


                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    <coracles18@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Frank,
                    > I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                    > powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push
                    something
                    > a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model
                    shop,
                    > or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                    > available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                    > heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.
                    >
                    > On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from
                    Delphion
                    > (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                    > If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                    > was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull
                    inventions,
                    > fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                    > to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went
                    to
                    > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                    >
                    > Dick
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                    > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Dick,
                    > >
                    > > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                    > > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                    > creek
                    > > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                    > > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead.
                    I'm
                    > > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage
                    production
                    > and
                    > > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin.
                    No
                    > > evidence of any results to report to date.
                    > >
                    > > Best wishes, Frank
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > Hi Frank,
                    > > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                    > edges
                    > > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                    > me or
                    > > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                    > and
                    > > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                    > > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                    > > > I think I may be going down with something!
                    > > > Dick
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                    > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Hi Dick,
                    > > >>
                    > > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                    > but
                    > > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are
                    made
                    > of
                    > > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                    > > > used.
                    > > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was
                    a
                    > > > kid.
                    > > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course
                    in
                    > a
                    > > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with
                    warnings
                    > > > about
                    > > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down
                    with
                    > > > just
                    > > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along
                    to
                    > us
                    > > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                    > degree
                    > > > of
                    > > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still
                    available.
                    > > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I
                    copied
                    > > > the
                    > > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                    > > > address"
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                    > > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that
                    will
                    > > > last
                    > > >> www.nmctoys.com
                    > > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                    > > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                    > shop.
                    > > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                    > > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                    > > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                    > > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                    > > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                    > > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                    > > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                    > > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                    > > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat
                    and
                    > > > more
                    > > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Best wishes, Frank
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > >> > Hi Frank,
                    > > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                    > very
                    > > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                    > > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                    > > > children
                    > > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                    > big
                    > > > kids
                    > > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything
                    like
                    > > > this
                    > > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                    > > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                    > hanky
                    > > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                    > > >> > Dick
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                    > > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > > >> >>
                    > > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                    > produced by
                    > > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced
                    by
                    > > > Welby?
                    > > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby.
                    As
                    > for
                    > > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never
                    know
                    > > > where
                    > > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                    > > >> >>
                    > > >> >> Frank
                    > > >> >>
                    > > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    > > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                    > > >> >> >
                    > > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                    > not to
                    > > >> > lick or
                    > > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                    > > >> >> > Dick
                    > > >> >> >
                    > > >> >> >
                    > > >> >> >
                    > > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                    > > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > > >> >> > >
                    > > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                    > > > encourage
                    > > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                    > > >> >> > >
                    > > >> >> > > old Frank
                    > > >> >> > >
                    > > >> >> >
                    > > >> >>
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> > ------------------------------------
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >> >
                    > > >>
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • David Halfpenny
                    ... From: Jean-Yves Renaud Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM To: Subject:
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --------------------------------------------------
                      From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                      Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                      To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                      > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                      > jets) are not impressive.

                      I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty convincingly that
                      full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.

                      Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or military
                      applications.

                      David 1/2d
                    • Richard Mundy
                      Hi Jean-Yves & David, thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Jean-Yves & David,

                        thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found
                        two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                        am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                        group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                        All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially uses
                        a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                        temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                        (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency makes
                        it considerably more complicated.
                        In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                        these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                        vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                        I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                        and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                        Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                        results.

                        Dick

                        Dick



                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                        <dh1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------
                        > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                        > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                        >
                        > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed
                        water
                        > > jets) are not impressive.
                        >
                        > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                        convincingly that
                        > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                        >
                        > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                        military
                        > applications.
                        >
                        > David 1/2d
                        >
                      • Jean-Yves Renaud
                        Hi Dick, No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the smaller the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Dick,

                          No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                          alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the
                          smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter there
                          is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                          engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless steel
                          pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                          closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                          hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                          Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                          manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard pull=0.108N.
                          Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                          power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                          (and others of this group) to play with.

                          Jean-Yves


                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          <coracles18@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                          >
                          > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                          found
                          > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                          > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                          > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                          > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                          uses
                          > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                          > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                          > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                          makes
                          > it considerably more complicated.
                          > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                          > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                          > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                          > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                          > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                          > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                          > results.
                          >
                          > Dick
                          >
                          > Dick
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                          > <dh1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                          > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                          > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                          > >
                          > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                          pulsed
                          > water
                          > > > jets) are not impressive.
                          > >
                          > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                          > convincingly that
                          > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                          > >
                          > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                          > military
                          > > applications.
                          > >
                          > > David 1/2d
                          > >
                          >
                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi Jean-Yves, There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines, I still can t resist the temptation to play! Dick ... the ... there ... steel
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Jean-Yves,

                            There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                            I still can't resist the temptation to play!

                            Dick


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                            <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Dick,
                            >
                            > No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                            > alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine
                            the
                            > smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter
                            there
                            > is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                            > engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless
                            steel
                            > pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                            > closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                            > hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                            > Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                            > manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard
                            pull=0.108N.
                            > Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                            > power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                            > (and others of this group) to play with.
                            >
                            > Jean-Yves
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > <coracles18@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                            > >
                            > > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                            > found
                            > > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple
                            I
                            > > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                            > > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                            > > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                            > uses
                            > > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                            > > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                            > > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                            > makes
                            > > it considerably more complicated.
                            > > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one
                            of
                            > > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                            > > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                            > > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his
                            retirement,
                            > > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                            > > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                            > > results.
                            > >
                            > > Dick
                            > >
                            > > Dick
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                            > > <dh1@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --------------------------------------------------
                            > > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                            > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                            > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                            boats.
                            > > >
                            > > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                            > pulsed
                            > > water
                            > > > > jets) are not impressive.
                            > > >
                            > > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                            > > convincingly that
                            > > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                            > > >
                            > > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                            > > military
                            > > > applications.
                            > > >
                            > > > David 1/2d
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • David Halfpenny
                            Go for it. How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as the spring ? Should David 1/2d ... From: Richard Mundy
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Go for it.

                              How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as
                              the "spring" ?

                              Should

                              David 1/2d

                              --------------------------------------------------
                              From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                              Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                              To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                              > Hi Jean-Yves,
                              >
                              > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                              > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                              >
                            • Richard Mundy
                              Hi David, I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air receiver/spring, by
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi David,
                                I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.

                                I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                think Compuserve have existed for some years.

                                Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).

                                Dick

                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                <dh1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Go for it.
                                >
                                > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                system as
                                > the "spring" ?
                                >
                                > Should
                                >
                                > David 1/2d
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------
                                > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                >
                                > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                > >
                                > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                engines,
                                > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                > >
                                >
                              • Pete B.
                                Hi Dick, For starters check out Dan Noyes s photo album Dory pop-pop , images 21-28. He has a 4 pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger engine designs.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Hi Dick,

                                  For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop", images 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of  engine larger engine designs.

                                   

                                  Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer Head" engine
                                   
                                  Dan would more than gladly share his experiences.
                                   
                                  Pete

                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi David,
                                  > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                  > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                  > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                  >
                                  > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                  > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                  >
                                  > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                  >
                                  > Dick
                                  >
                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                  > dh1@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Go for it.
                                  > >
                                  > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                  > system as
                                  > > the "spring" ?
                                  > >
                                  > > Should
                                  > >
                                  > > David 1/2d
                                  > >
                                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                                  > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                  > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                  > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                  > >
                                  > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                  > engines,
                                  > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Richard Mundy
                                  Hi Pete, thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam or compresed
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Pete,
                                    thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop
                                    pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam
                                    or compresed air pump suitable for propulsion. The existance of this
                                    patent indicates to me thst he felt his previous patent device was
                                    not efficient. It worked, but not that well (as everyone has been
                                    telling me).
                                    My own thoughts on this are the problem is the spead of creating
                                    steam. With a small model you only need to heat a drop of water.
                                    As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                    lot faster. The hammer head boiler goes some way to achieving this.
                                    I suspect better would be a multitube flash steam boiler. Or to heat
                                    the water by microwave!
                                    The water needs to get down that tube fast!

                                    Dick



                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Dick,
                                    >
                                    > For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop",
                                    images
                                    > 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger
                                    engine
                                    > designs.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer
                                    Head"
                                    > engine Dan would more than gladly share his experiences. Pete
                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                    > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi David,
                                    > > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get
                                    this
                                    > > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                    > > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                    > >
                                    > > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                    > > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                    > >
                                    > > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                    > >
                                    > > Dick
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                    > > dh1@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Go for it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                    > > system as
                                    > > > the "spring" ?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Should
                                    > > >
                                    > > > David 1/2d
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                    > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                    > > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                                    boats.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                    > > engines,
                                    > > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • David Halfpenny
                                    ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM ... AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --------------------------------------------------
                                      From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM

                                      > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                      > lot faster.

                                      AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very boiler
                                      you have just heated it in!

                                      That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less thermal
                                      capacity to heat and cool each pulse.

                                      David 1/2d
                                    • Richard Mundy
                                      Hi David, I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing it in a big
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi David,
                                        I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                        problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                        it in a big tube.
                                        An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                        of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                        This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                        If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                        More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                        valves.
                                        Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                        velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                        over the end.
                                        This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                        whole thing more go?

                                        Dick



                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                        <dh1@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --------------------------------------------------
                                        > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                        >
                                        > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                        steam a
                                        > > lot faster.
                                        >
                                        > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                        boiler
                                        > you have just heated it in!
                                        >
                                        > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                        thermal
                                        > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                        >
                                        > David 1/2d
                                        >
                                      • Sparks, Matthew - McClatchy Corporate
                                        If you really want to see what you re up against, check out the mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and mounted two of the large
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                          mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                          mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.

                                          http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/

                                          Matt Sparks -

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Mundy
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                          To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                          Hi David,
                                          I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                          problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                          it in a big tube.
                                          An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                          of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                          This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                          If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                          More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                          valves.
                                          Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                          velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                          over the end.
                                          This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                          whole thing more go?

                                          Dick



                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                          <dh1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --------------------------------------------------
                                          > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                          >
                                          > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                          steam a
                                          > > lot faster.
                                          >
                                          > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                          boiler
                                          > you have just heated it in!
                                          >
                                          > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                          thermal
                                          > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                          >
                                          > David 1/2d
                                          >



                                          ------------------------------------

                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                          Hi Dick, I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and nozzle. 1°) Facing intake. Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Dick,
                                            I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and
                                            nozzle.
                                            1°) Facing intake.
                                            Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                            valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                            Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                            exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                            • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                            modification is negligible.
                                            • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                            that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a candle
                                            by sucking air!
                                            • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                            a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on the
                                            bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                            pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                            than the pushing one.
                                            2°) Nozzle.
                                            The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity of
                                            the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                            improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                            also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                            don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the best
                                            nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                            is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                            this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                            engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                            Jean-Yves


                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                            <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi David,
                                            > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                            > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                            doing
                                            > it in a big tube.
                                            > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                            momentum
                                            > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                            boiler.
                                            > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                            it.
                                            > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                            > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                            > valves.
                                            > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                            the
                                            > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                            > over the end.
                                            > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                            > whole thing more go?
                                            >
                                            > Dick
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                            > <dh1@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --------------------------------------------------
                                            > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                            > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                            > >
                                            > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                            > steam a
                                            > > > lot faster.
                                            > >
                                            > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                            very
                                            > boiler
                                            > > you have just heated it in!
                                            > >
                                            > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                            less
                                            > thermal
                                            > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                            > >
                                            > > David 1/2d
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • David Halfpenny
                                            ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM To: Subject:
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --------------------------------------------------
                                              From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                              To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                              > Hi David,
                                              > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                              > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                              > it in a big tube.
                                              > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                              > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                              > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                              > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                              > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                              > valves.
                                              > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                              > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                              > over the end.
                                              > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                              > whole thing more go?
                                              >

                                              This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                              something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in this
                                              kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.

                                              We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of unknown
                                              size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water under
                                              rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low speed
                                              under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental data, and
                                              few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or the
                                              thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level. Despite
                                              the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than, say, an
                                              ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been usefully
                                              demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the power
                                              required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.

                                              What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of experiments in
                                              which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and temperature
                                              sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear computer "model"
                                              based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.

                                              The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of a smart
                                              pensioner with modest means.

                                              Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions about
                                              valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)

                                              David 1/2d
                                            • Richard Mundy
                                              Hi Matt, good to hear from you, I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Matt, good to hear from you,

                                                I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for
                                                the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite quickly.
                                                Problem with a boat is it won't go any spead unless you can get it on
                                                the plane, which takes a lot of energy! The boat needs to be lifted
                                                out and placed on top of the water.
                                                Even I am not optimistic enough to expect to get a pop pop to plane.

                                                Dick

                                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sparks, Matthew -
                                                McClatchy Corporate" <msparks@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                                > mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                                > mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.
                                                >
                                                > http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/
                                                >
                                                > Matt Sparks -
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                > [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
                                                Mundy
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                >
                                                > Hi David,
                                                > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                doing
                                                > it in a big tube.
                                                > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                momentum
                                                > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                boiler.
                                                > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                it.
                                                > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                > valves.
                                                > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                the
                                                > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                > over the end.
                                                > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                > whole thing more go?
                                                >
                                                > Dick
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                > steam a
                                                > > > lot faster.
                                                > >
                                                > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                very
                                                > boiler
                                                > > you have just heated it in!
                                                > >
                                                > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                less
                                                > thermal
                                                > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                > >
                                                > > David 1/2d
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                              • Richard Mundy
                                                Hi Jean-Yves, you keep knocking down my skittles:-). Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                  you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                  Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                  perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                  angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then a
                                                  little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                  intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                  designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make the
                                                  forward facing inlet pointless.

                                                  On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                  it had been tried.

                                                  Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold more
                                                  energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                  atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is very
                                                  rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                  tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of the
                                                  pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed up
                                                  the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                  efficiency, why?

                                                  Dick


                                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                  <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Dick,
                                                  > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                  and
                                                  > nozzle.
                                                  > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                  > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                  > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                  > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                  > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                  > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                  > modification is negligible.
                                                  > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                  > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                  candle
                                                  > by sucking air!
                                                  > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                  > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                  the
                                                  > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                  > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                  > than the pushing one.
                                                  > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                  > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                  of
                                                  > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                  > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                                  > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                  > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                  best
                                                  > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                                  > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                                  > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                  > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                  > Jean-Yves
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                  > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi David,
                                                  > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                  > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                  > doing
                                                  > > it in a big tube.
                                                  > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                  > momentum
                                                  > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                  > boiler.
                                                  > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                  > it.
                                                  > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                  > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                  > > valves.
                                                  > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                  > the
                                                  > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                  finger
                                                  > > over the end.
                                                  > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                  > > whole thing more go?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dick
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                  > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                  > > steam a
                                                  > > > > lot faster.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                  > very
                                                  > > boiler
                                                  > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                  > less
                                                  > > thermal
                                                  > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > David 1/2d
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Richard Mundy
                                                  Hi David, thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean- Yves points
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi David,
                                                    thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun
                                                    and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean-
                                                    Yves points out, the likelyhood of a high powered big pop pop is very
                                                    slim.
                                                    Time to start torturing metal!!

                                                    Dick

                                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                    <dh1@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > --------------------------------------------------
                                                    > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                                    > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                    >
                                                    > > Hi David,
                                                    > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                    > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                    doing
                                                    > > it in a big tube.
                                                    > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                    momentum
                                                    > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                    boiler.
                                                    > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                    it.
                                                    > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                    > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                    > > valves.
                                                    > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                    the
                                                    > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                    > > over the end.
                                                    > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                    > > whole thing more go?
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                                    > something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in
                                                    this
                                                    > kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.
                                                    >
                                                    > We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of
                                                    unknown
                                                    > size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water
                                                    under
                                                    > rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low
                                                    speed
                                                    > under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental
                                                    data, and
                                                    > few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or
                                                    the
                                                    > thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level.
                                                    Despite
                                                    > the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than,
                                                    say, an
                                                    > ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been
                                                    usefully
                                                    > demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the
                                                    power
                                                    > required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.
                                                    >
                                                    > What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of
                                                    experiments in
                                                    > which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and
                                                    temperature
                                                    > sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear
                                                    computer "model"
                                                    > based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.
                                                    >
                                                    > The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of
                                                    a smart
                                                    > pensioner with modest means.
                                                    >
                                                    > Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions
                                                    about
                                                    > valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)
                                                    >
                                                    > David 1/2d
                                                    >
                                                  • David Halfpenny
                                                    ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM ... That s the spirit! D
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --------------------------------------------------
                                                      From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM

                                                      > Time to start torturing metal!!
                                                      >
                                                      That's the spirit! D
                                                    • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                                      Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because of the inertia of the
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 22, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                        less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                        of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                        It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                        classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                        other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port and
                                                        starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer progress
                                                        forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                        If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                        downward and the result will be the same.
                                                        Jean-Yves



                                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                        <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                        > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                        > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                        > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                        > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then
                                                        a
                                                        > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                        > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                        > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                        the
                                                        > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                        >
                                                        > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                        > it had been tried.
                                                        >
                                                        > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                        more
                                                        > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                        > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                        very
                                                        > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                        > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                        the
                                                        > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                        up
                                                        > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                        > efficiency, why?
                                                        >
                                                        > Dick
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                        > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hi Dick,
                                                        > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                        > and
                                                        > > nozzle.
                                                        > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                        > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                        > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                        > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                        > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                        > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                        > > modification is negligible.
                                                        > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                        > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                        > candle
                                                        > > by sucking air!
                                                        > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                        > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                        > the
                                                        > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                        > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                        > > than the pushing one.
                                                        > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                        > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                        > of
                                                        > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                        > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                        acts
                                                        > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                        > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                        > best
                                                        > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                        Daryl
                                                        > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                        on
                                                        > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                        > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                        > > Jean-Yves
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                        > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Hi David,
                                                        > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                        another
                                                        > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                        > > doing
                                                        > > > it in a big tube.
                                                        > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                        > > momentum
                                                        > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                        > > boiler.
                                                        > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick
                                                        to
                                                        > > it.
                                                        > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                        > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                        > > > valves.
                                                        > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                        increase
                                                        > > the
                                                        > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                        > finger
                                                        > > > over the end.
                                                        > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                        the
                                                        > > > whole thing more go?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Dick
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                        > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                        > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot
                                                        of
                                                        > > > steam a
                                                        > > > > > lot faster.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                        > > very
                                                        > > > boiler
                                                        > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                        > > less
                                                        > > > thermal
                                                        > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > David 1/2d
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • Richard Mundy
                                                        Hi Jean-Yves, Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the water column, but not its inertia. Dick ... and ... progress ...
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 23, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hi Jean-Yves,

                                                          Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the
                                                          water column, but not its inertia.

                                                          Dick



                                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                          <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                          > less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                          > of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                          > It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                          > classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                          > other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port
                                                          and
                                                          > starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer
                                                          progress
                                                          > forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                          > If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                          > downward and the result will be the same.
                                                          > Jean-Yves
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                          > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                          > > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                          > > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few
                                                          experiments
                                                          > > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what
                                                          if'
                                                          > > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards
                                                          then
                                                          > a
                                                          > > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                          > > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                          > > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                          > the
                                                          > > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered
                                                          if
                                                          > > it had been tried.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                          > more
                                                          > > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                          > > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                          > very
                                                          > > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                          > > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                          > the
                                                          > > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                          > up
                                                          > > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                          > > efficiency, why?
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Dick
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                          > > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Hi Dick,
                                                          > > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing
                                                          intake
                                                          > > and
                                                          > > > nozzle.
                                                          > > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                          > > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake
                                                          (and
                                                          > > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion.
                                                          Even
                                                          > > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                          > > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                          > > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                          > > > modification is negligible.
                                                          > > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                          > > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                          > > candle
                                                          > > > by sucking air!
                                                          > > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                          > > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water
                                                          on
                                                          > > the
                                                          > > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                          > > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times
                                                          weaker
                                                          > > > than the pushing one.
                                                          > > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                          > > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the
                                                          velocity
                                                          > > of
                                                          > > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                          > > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                          > acts
                                                          > > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental.
                                                          We
                                                          > > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that
                                                          the
                                                          > > best
                                                          > > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                          > Daryl
                                                          > > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                          > on
                                                          > > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and
                                                          his
                                                          > > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                          > > > Jean-Yves
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                          > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Hi David,
                                                          > > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                          > another
                                                          > > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker
                                                          than
                                                          > > > doing
                                                          > > > > it in a big tube.
                                                          > > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                          > > > momentum
                                                          > > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                          > > > boiler.
                                                          > > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more
                                                          kick
                                                          > to
                                                          > > > it.
                                                          > > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                          > > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake
                                                          and
                                                          > > > > valves.
                                                          > > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                          > increase
                                                          > > > the
                                                          > > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                          > > finger
                                                          > > > > over the end.
                                                          > > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                          > the
                                                          > > > > whole thing more go?
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > Dick
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                          > > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                          > > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                          > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a
                                                          lot
                                                          > of
                                                          > > > > steam a
                                                          > > > > > > lot faster.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in
                                                          the
                                                          > > > very
                                                          > > > > boiler
                                                          > > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with
                                                          much
                                                          > > > less
                                                          > > > > thermal
                                                          > > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > > > David 1/2d
                                                          > > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.