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Re: Pop-Pop Boats in the News

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  • Richard Mundy
    Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it) Dick
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
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      Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or
      chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
      Dick



      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
      >
      > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
      > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
      >
      > old Frank
      >
    • Frank McNeill
      Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby? Both of the recalled
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
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        Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
        Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
        Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
        licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
        they have been or what they have gotten into.

        Frank

        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        <coracles18@...> wrote:
        >
        > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or
        > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
        > Dick
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
        > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
        > >
        > > old Frank
        > >
        >
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Frank, its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very well. Quality is crap tho. Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Frank,
          its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
          well. Quality is crap tho.
          Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
          in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
          like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
          unless they start to sell big time.
          I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
          first to avoid catching anything :-)
          Dick


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >
          > Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
          > Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
          > Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
          > licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
          > they have been or what they have gotten into.
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
          lick or
          > > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
          > > Dick
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
          > > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
          > > >
          > > > old Frank
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Frank McNeill
          Hi Dick, The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but can t be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of tinplate, or
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
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            Hi Dick,

            The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
            can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
            tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are used.
            I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a kid.
            It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
            cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings about
            close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with just
            about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
            later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree of
            immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
            As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied the
            following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail address"

            Toys NOT Made in China
            Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will last
            www.nmctoys.com
            Classic Yacht Tenders
            Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
            DowneastPeapods.com
            Gorgeous Wood Toys
            Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
            www.DesignForPlay.com
            Waiting Room Toy Revolt
            Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
            www.SomethingForKids.com
            Haba Toys at Mod Mama
            Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and more
            modmama.com/toys.html

            Best wishes, Frank


            On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
            > Hi Frank,
            > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
            > well. Quality is crap tho.
            > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
            > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
            > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
            > unless they start to sell big time.
            > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
            > first to avoid catching anything :-)
            > Dick
            >
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
            >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
            >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
            >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
            >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
            >>
            >> Frank
            >>
            >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            >> <coracles18@> wrote:
            >> >
            >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
            > lick or
            >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
            >> > Dick
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            >> > >
            >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
            >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
            >> > >
            >> > > old Frank
            >> > >
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Richard Mundy
            Hi Frank, in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges etc. I had these toys as a kid, can t remember any accidents to me or my friends.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
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              Hi Frank,
              in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
              etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
              my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
              TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
              Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
              I think I may be going down with something!
              Dick

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
              <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dick,
              >
              > The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
              > can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
              > tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
              used.
              > I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
              kid.
              > It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
              > cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
              about
              > close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
              just
              > about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
              > later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
              of
              > immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
              > As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
              the
              > following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
              address"
              >
              > Toys NOT Made in China
              > Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
              last
              > www.nmctoys.com
              > Classic Yacht Tenders
              > Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
              > DowneastPeapods.com
              > Gorgeous Wood Toys
              > Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
              > www.DesignForPlay.com
              > Waiting Room Toy Revolt
              > Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
              > www.SomethingForKids.com
              > Haba Toys at Mod Mama
              > Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
              more
              > modmama.com/toys.html
              >
              > Best wishes, Frank
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
              wrote:
              > > Hi Frank,
              > > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
              > > well. Quality is crap tho.
              > > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
              children
              > > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
              kids
              > > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
              this
              > > unless they start to sell big time.
              > > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
              > > first to avoid catching anything :-)
              > > Dick
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
              > >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
              Welby?
              > >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
              > >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
              where
              > >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
              > >>
              > >> Frank
              > >>
              > >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > >> <coracles18@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
              > > lick or
              > >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
              > >> > Dick
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > >> > >
              > >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
              encourage
              > >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
              > >> > >
              > >> > > old Frank
              > >> > >
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Frank McNeill
              Hi Dick, My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek known by
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Dick,

                My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek
                known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
                currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production and
                marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
                evidence of any results to report to date.

                Best wishes, Frank




                On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
                > Hi Frank,
                > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
                > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
                > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
                > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                > I think I may be going down with something!
                > Dick
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Hi Dick,
                >>
                >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
                >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
                >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                > used.
                >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                > kid.
                >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
                >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                > about
                >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                > just
                >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
                >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
                > of
                >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                > the
                >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                > address"
                >>
                >> Toys NOT Made in China
                >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                > last
                >> www.nmctoys.com
                >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
                >> DowneastPeapods.com
                >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                > more
                >> modmama.com/toys.html
                >>
                >> Best wishes, Frank
                >>
                >>
                >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                > wrote:
                >> > Hi Frank,
                >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
                >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                > children
                >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
                > kids
                >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                > this
                >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
                >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                >> > Dick
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                >> >>
                >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
                >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                > Welby?
                >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
                >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                > where
                >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                >> >>
                >> >> Frank
                >> >>
                >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
                >> > lick or
                >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                >> >> > Dick
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                >> >> > >
                >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                > encourage
                >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                >> >> > >
                >> >> > > old Frank
                >> >> > >
                >> >> >
                >> >>
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > ------------------------------------
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Richard Mundy
                Hi Frank, I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something a little heavier
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Frank,
                  I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                  powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something
                  a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model shop,
                  or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                  available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                  heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.

                  On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from Delphion
                  (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                  If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                  was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull inventions,
                  fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                  to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went to
                  the expence of patenting something that didn't work.

                  Dick





                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                  <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dick,
                  >
                  > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                  > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                  creek
                  > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                  > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
                  > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production
                  and
                  > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
                  > evidence of any results to report to date.
                  >
                  > Best wishes, Frank
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Hi Frank,
                  > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                  edges
                  > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                  me or
                  > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                  and
                  > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                  > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                  > > I think I may be going down with something!
                  > > Dick
                  > >
                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                  > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Hi Dick,
                  > >>
                  > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                  but
                  > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made
                  of
                  > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                  > > used.
                  > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                  > > kid.
                  > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in
                  a
                  > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                  > > about
                  > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                  > > just
                  > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to
                  us
                  > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                  degree
                  > > of
                  > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                  > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                  > > the
                  > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                  > > address"
                  > >>
                  > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                  > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                  > > last
                  > >> www.nmctoys.com
                  > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                  > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                  shop.
                  > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                  > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                  > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                  > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                  > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                  > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                  > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                  > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                  > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                  > > more
                  > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                  > >>
                  > >> Best wishes, Frank
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >> > Hi Frank,
                  > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                  very
                  > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                  > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                  > > children
                  > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                  big
                  > > kids
                  > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                  > > this
                  > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                  > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                  hanky
                  > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                  > >> > Dick
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                  > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                  produced by
                  > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                  > > Welby?
                  > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As
                  for
                  > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                  > > where
                  > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> Frank
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                  not to
                  > >> > lick or
                  > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                  > >> >> > Dick
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                  > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                  > > encourage
                  > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> > > old Frank
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > ------------------------------------
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • David Halfpenny
                  ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM ... Let s hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                    Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM

                    > I should not think he went to
                    > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                    Let's hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of patent
                    applications for perpetual motion machines are submitted.

                    David 1/2d
                  • Jean-Yves Renaud
                    Hi Frank and Dick, I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Frank and Dick,
                      I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter
                      Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came
                      to the same conclusion: In spite of a laudatory bibliography
                      (according to his children) that is easy to find on Internet, the
                      works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                      jets) are not impressive. It is said that Mr Payne and his
                      company "Payne, Inc." got money for years from US Navy and Energy
                      Department. To justify the usefulness of these donations and to get
                      some more ones, Mr Payne had to publish documents and to do
                      conferences. At that game it seems he was excellent, but what do we
                      find in his writings?
                      • Many ideas, formulas, pieces of patents…invented by others.
                      Nevertheless, it must be confessed that Mr Payne said who wrote what.
                      But he could have an ulterior motive in doing that: to improve an
                      apparent credibility.
                      • Many assumptions (assuming that… It is presumed that…)
                      allowing to building demonstrations which really are not.
                      • Impressive equations for the layman, but having sometimes a
                      very remote connection with the subject.
                      • Laws of physics that are invented, or that are well known but
                      modified to justify the result of experiments. Ex: 2/4=2.47 becomes
                      2.0 without justification.
                      • Curves which don't go through measured dots…though these dots
                      follow sometimes a well known law.
                      • A beautiful curve (fig 13 in doc 749153) going through many
                      dots which in fact could be only one dot if we take into account the
                      uncertainty of the measurement.
                      • Hairsplitting around simple experimental laws to make they
                      become complicated.
                      • Gratuitous assertions (ex: P-V diagram) or false ones (ex: in
                      McHugh engine some water is trapped because the tube is raised above
                      the floor of the boiler).
                      • Efficiency prospects which are very very optimistic, though
                      decreasing with years.
                      • Technical non-senses. Ex: to evacuate air, a relief valve
                      suffices. This would mean that the presence of air increases the max
                      pressure in the cycle. On one hand it is not proven, and on the other
                      hand if it was true it would be better to trap air inside.
                      • Reuse from one year to the next one.
                      • Patents enlarged to non realistic possible applications:
                      diverging nozzle, thrust control valve…
                      • Truths hidden for layman. Ex: with a 1" pop-pop engine, a 14
                      foot aluminum (=light) rowboat reached a speed of 1.0 ft/sec. With
                      more common units for non Americans, knowing that the speed evolves
                      with the cubic root of the power, and knowing that such a boat
                      reaches approximately 20 km/h with a 4 kW engine (5.5HP), one
                      thousands of a horse power (less than 1 Watt) suffices to reach 1
                      ft/sec. And if the wind blows in the right direction….

                      This means that only few new and useful things could be gotten from
                      Mr Payne's publications. Yet, according to the enormous means which
                      were available to Payne Inc. some points might have increased the
                      knowledge we have of the pop-pop engine. It's a pity!...


                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      <coracles18@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Frank,
                      > I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                      > powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push
                      something
                      > a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model
                      shop,
                      > or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                      > available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                      > heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.
                      >
                      > On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from
                      Delphion
                      > (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                      > If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                      > was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull
                      inventions,
                      > fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                      > to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went
                      to
                      > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                      >
                      > Dick
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                      > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Dick,
                      > >
                      > > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                      > > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                      > creek
                      > > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                      > > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead.
                      I'm
                      > > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage
                      production
                      > and
                      > > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin.
                      No
                      > > evidence of any results to report to date.
                      > >
                      > > Best wishes, Frank
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > Hi Frank,
                      > > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                      > edges
                      > > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                      > me or
                      > > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                      > and
                      > > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                      > > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                      > > > I think I may be going down with something!
                      > > > Dick
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                      > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Hi Dick,
                      > > >>
                      > > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                      > but
                      > > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are
                      made
                      > of
                      > > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                      > > > used.
                      > > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was
                      a
                      > > > kid.
                      > > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course
                      in
                      > a
                      > > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with
                      warnings
                      > > > about
                      > > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down
                      with
                      > > > just
                      > > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along
                      to
                      > us
                      > > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                      > degree
                      > > > of
                      > > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still
                      available.
                      > > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I
                      copied
                      > > > the
                      > > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                      > > > address"
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                      > > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that
                      will
                      > > > last
                      > > >> www.nmctoys.com
                      > > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                      > > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                      > shop.
                      > > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                      > > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                      > > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                      > > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                      > > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                      > > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                      > > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                      > > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                      > > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat
                      and
                      > > > more
                      > > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Best wishes, Frank
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > >> > Hi Frank,
                      > > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                      > very
                      > > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                      > > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                      > > > children
                      > > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                      > big
                      > > > kids
                      > > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything
                      like
                      > > > this
                      > > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                      > > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                      > hanky
                      > > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                      > > >> > Dick
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                      > > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > >> >>
                      > > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                      > produced by
                      > > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced
                      by
                      > > > Welby?
                      > > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby.
                      As
                      > for
                      > > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never
                      know
                      > > > where
                      > > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                      > > >> >>
                      > > >> >> Frank
                      > > >> >>
                      > > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                      > > >> >> >
                      > > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                      > not to
                      > > >> > lick or
                      > > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                      > > >> >> > Dick
                      > > >> >> >
                      > > >> >> >
                      > > >> >> >
                      > > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                      > > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                      > > >> >> > >
                      > > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                      > > > encourage
                      > > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                      > > >> >> > >
                      > > >> >> > > old Frank
                      > > >> >> > >
                      > > >> >> >
                      > > >> >>
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> > ------------------------------------
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >> >
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • David Halfpenny
                      ... From: Jean-Yves Renaud Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM To: Subject:
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                        Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                        To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                        > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                        > jets) are not impressive.

                        I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty convincingly that
                        full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.

                        Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or military
                        applications.

                        David 1/2d
                      • Richard Mundy
                        Hi Jean-Yves & David, thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Jean-Yves & David,

                          thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found
                          two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                          am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                          group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                          All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially uses
                          a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                          temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                          (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency makes
                          it considerably more complicated.
                          In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                          these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                          vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                          I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                          and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                          Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                          results.

                          Dick

                          Dick



                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                          <dh1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --------------------------------------------------
                          > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                          > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                          >
                          > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed
                          water
                          > > jets) are not impressive.
                          >
                          > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                          convincingly that
                          > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                          >
                          > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                          military
                          > applications.
                          >
                          > David 1/2d
                          >
                        • Jean-Yves Renaud
                          Hi Dick, No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the smaller the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Dick,

                            No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                            alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the
                            smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter there
                            is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                            engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless steel
                            pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                            closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                            hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                            Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                            manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard pull=0.108N.
                            Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                            power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                            (and others of this group) to play with.

                            Jean-Yves


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            <coracles18@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                            >
                            > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                            found
                            > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                            > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                            > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                            > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                            uses
                            > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                            > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                            > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                            makes
                            > it considerably more complicated.
                            > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                            > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                            > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                            > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                            > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                            > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                            > results.
                            >
                            > Dick
                            >
                            > Dick
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                            > <dh1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                            > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                            > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                            > >
                            > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                            pulsed
                            > water
                            > > > jets) are not impressive.
                            > >
                            > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                            > convincingly that
                            > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                            > >
                            > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                            > military
                            > > applications.
                            > >
                            > > David 1/2d
                            > >
                            >
                          • Richard Mundy
                            Hi Jean-Yves, There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines, I still can t resist the temptation to play! Dick ... the ... there ... steel
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Jean-Yves,

                              There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                              I still can't resist the temptation to play!

                              Dick


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                              <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Dick,
                              >
                              > No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                              > alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine
                              the
                              > smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter
                              there
                              > is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                              > engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless
                              steel
                              > pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                              > closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                              > hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                              > Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                              > manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard
                              pull=0.108N.
                              > Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                              > power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                              > (and others of this group) to play with.
                              >
                              > Jean-Yves
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > <coracles18@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                              > >
                              > > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                              > found
                              > > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple
                              I
                              > > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                              > > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                              > > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                              > uses
                              > > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                              > > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                              > > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                              > makes
                              > > it considerably more complicated.
                              > > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one
                              of
                              > > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                              > > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                              > > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his
                              retirement,
                              > > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                              > > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                              > > results.
                              > >
                              > > Dick
                              > >
                              > > Dick
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                              > > <dh1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                              > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                              > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                              boats.
                              > > >
                              > > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                              > pulsed
                              > > water
                              > > > > jets) are not impressive.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                              > > convincingly that
                              > > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                              > > >
                              > > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                              > > military
                              > > > applications.
                              > > >
                              > > > David 1/2d
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • David Halfpenny
                              Go for it. How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as the spring ? Should David 1/2d ... From: Richard Mundy
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Go for it.

                                How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as
                                the "spring" ?

                                Should

                                David 1/2d

                                --------------------------------------------------
                                From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                >
                                > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                                > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                >
                              • Richard Mundy
                                Hi David, I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air receiver/spring, by
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi David,
                                  I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                  working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                  receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.

                                  I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                  think Compuserve have existed for some years.

                                  Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).

                                  Dick

                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                  <dh1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Go for it.
                                  >
                                  > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                  system as
                                  > the "spring" ?
                                  >
                                  > Should
                                  >
                                  > David 1/2d
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------
                                  > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                  > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                  >
                                  > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                  > >
                                  > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                  engines,
                                  > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Pete B.
                                  Hi Dick, For starters check out Dan Noyes s photo album Dory pop-pop , images 21-28. He has a 4 pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger engine designs.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Hi Dick,

                                    For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop", images 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of  engine larger engine designs.

                                     

                                    Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer Head" engine
                                     
                                    Dan would more than gladly share his experiences.
                                     
                                    Pete

                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi David,
                                    > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                    > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                    > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                    >
                                    > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                    > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                    >
                                    > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                    >
                                    > Dick
                                    >
                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                    > dh1@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Go for it.
                                    > >
                                    > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                    > system as
                                    > > the "spring" ?
                                    > >
                                    > > Should
                                    > >
                                    > > David 1/2d
                                    > >
                                    > > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                    > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                    > >
                                    > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                    > engines,
                                    > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Richard Mundy
                                    Hi Pete, thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam or compresed
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Pete,
                                      thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop
                                      pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam
                                      or compresed air pump suitable for propulsion. The existance of this
                                      patent indicates to me thst he felt his previous patent device was
                                      not efficient. It worked, but not that well (as everyone has been
                                      telling me).
                                      My own thoughts on this are the problem is the spead of creating
                                      steam. With a small model you only need to heat a drop of water.
                                      As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                      lot faster. The hammer head boiler goes some way to achieving this.
                                      I suspect better would be a multitube flash steam boiler. Or to heat
                                      the water by microwave!
                                      The water needs to get down that tube fast!

                                      Dick



                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Dick,
                                      >
                                      > For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop",
                                      images
                                      > 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger
                                      engine
                                      > designs.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer
                                      Head"
                                      > engine Dan would more than gladly share his experiences. Pete
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                      > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi David,
                                      > > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get
                                      this
                                      > > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                      > > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                      > >
                                      > > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                      > > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                      > >
                                      > > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                      > >
                                      > > Dick
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                      > > dh1@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Go for it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                      > > system as
                                      > > > the "spring" ?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Should
                                      > > >
                                      > > > David 1/2d
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                      > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                      > > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                                      boats.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                      > > engines,
                                      > > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • David Halfpenny
                                      ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM ... AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --------------------------------------------------
                                        From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM

                                        > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                        > lot faster.

                                        AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very boiler
                                        you have just heated it in!

                                        That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less thermal
                                        capacity to heat and cool each pulse.

                                        David 1/2d
                                      • Richard Mundy
                                        Hi David, I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing it in a big
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi David,
                                          I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                          problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                          it in a big tube.
                                          An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                          of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                          This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                          If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                          More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                          valves.
                                          Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                          velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                          over the end.
                                          This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                          whole thing more go?

                                          Dick



                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                          <dh1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --------------------------------------------------
                                          > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                          >
                                          > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                          steam a
                                          > > lot faster.
                                          >
                                          > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                          boiler
                                          > you have just heated it in!
                                          >
                                          > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                          thermal
                                          > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                          >
                                          > David 1/2d
                                          >
                                        • Sparks, Matthew - McClatchy Corporate
                                          If you really want to see what you re up against, check out the mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and mounted two of the large
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                            mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                            mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.

                                            http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/

                                            Matt Sparks -

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Mundy
                                            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                            To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                            Hi David,
                                            I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                            problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                            it in a big tube.
                                            An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                            of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                            This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                            If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                            More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                            valves.
                                            Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                            velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                            over the end.
                                            This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                            whole thing more go?

                                            Dick



                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                            <dh1@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --------------------------------------------------
                                            > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                            >
                                            > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                            steam a
                                            > > lot faster.
                                            >
                                            > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                            boiler
                                            > you have just heated it in!
                                            >
                                            > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                            thermal
                                            > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                            >
                                            > David 1/2d
                                            >



                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                            Hi Dick, I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and nozzle. 1°) Facing intake. Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Dick,
                                              I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and
                                              nozzle.
                                              1°) Facing intake.
                                              Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                              valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                              Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                              exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                              • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                              modification is negligible.
                                              • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                              that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a candle
                                              by sucking air!
                                              • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                              a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on the
                                              bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                              pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                              than the pushing one.
                                              2°) Nozzle.
                                              The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity of
                                              the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                              improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                              also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                              don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the best
                                              nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                              is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                              this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                              engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                              Jean-Yves


                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                              <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi David,
                                              > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                              > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                              doing
                                              > it in a big tube.
                                              > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                              momentum
                                              > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                              boiler.
                                              > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                              it.
                                              > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                              > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                              > valves.
                                              > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                              the
                                              > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                              > over the end.
                                              > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                              > whole thing more go?
                                              >
                                              > Dick
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                              > <dh1@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --------------------------------------------------
                                              > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                              > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                              > >
                                              > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                              > steam a
                                              > > > lot faster.
                                              > >
                                              > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                              very
                                              > boiler
                                              > > you have just heated it in!
                                              > >
                                              > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                              less
                                              > thermal
                                              > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                              > >
                                              > > David 1/2d
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • David Halfpenny
                                              ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM To: Subject:
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --------------------------------------------------
                                                From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                                To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                                > Hi David,
                                                > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                                > it in a big tube.
                                                > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                                > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                                > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                                > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                > valves.
                                                > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                                > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                > over the end.
                                                > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                > whole thing more go?
                                                >

                                                This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                                something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in this
                                                kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.

                                                We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of unknown
                                                size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water under
                                                rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low speed
                                                under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental data, and
                                                few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or the
                                                thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level. Despite
                                                the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than, say, an
                                                ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been usefully
                                                demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the power
                                                required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.

                                                What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of experiments in
                                                which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and temperature
                                                sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear computer "model"
                                                based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.

                                                The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of a smart
                                                pensioner with modest means.

                                                Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions about
                                                valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)

                                                David 1/2d
                                              • Richard Mundy
                                                Hi Matt, good to hear from you, I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Matt, good to hear from you,

                                                  I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for
                                                  the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite quickly.
                                                  Problem with a boat is it won't go any spead unless you can get it on
                                                  the plane, which takes a lot of energy! The boat needs to be lifted
                                                  out and placed on top of the water.
                                                  Even I am not optimistic enough to expect to get a pop pop to plane.

                                                  Dick

                                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sparks, Matthew -
                                                  McClatchy Corporate" <msparks@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                                  > mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                                  > mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/
                                                  >
                                                  > Matt Sparks -
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
                                                  Mundy
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                  > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi David,
                                                  > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                  > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                  doing
                                                  > it in a big tube.
                                                  > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                  momentum
                                                  > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                  boiler.
                                                  > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                  it.
                                                  > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                  > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                  > valves.
                                                  > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                  the
                                                  > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                  > over the end.
                                                  > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                  > whole thing more go?
                                                  >
                                                  > Dick
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                  > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                  > steam a
                                                  > > > lot faster.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                  very
                                                  > boiler
                                                  > > you have just heated it in!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                  less
                                                  > thermal
                                                  > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > David 1/2d
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                • Richard Mundy
                                                  Hi Jean-Yves, you keep knocking down my skittles:-). Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                    you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                    Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                    perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                    angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then a
                                                    little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                    intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                    designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make the
                                                    forward facing inlet pointless.

                                                    On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                    it had been tried.

                                                    Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold more
                                                    energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                    atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is very
                                                    rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                    tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of the
                                                    pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed up
                                                    the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                    efficiency, why?

                                                    Dick


                                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                    <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Dick,
                                                    > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                    and
                                                    > nozzle.
                                                    > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                    > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                    > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                    > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                    > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                    > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                    > modification is negligible.
                                                    > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                    > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                    candle
                                                    > by sucking air!
                                                    > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                    > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                    the
                                                    > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                    > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                    > than the pushing one.
                                                    > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                    > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                    of
                                                    > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                    > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                                    > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                    > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                    best
                                                    > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                                    > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                                    > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                    > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                    > Jean-Yves
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                    > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hi David,
                                                    > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                    > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                    > doing
                                                    > > it in a big tube.
                                                    > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                    > momentum
                                                    > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                    > boiler.
                                                    > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                    > it.
                                                    > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                    > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                    > > valves.
                                                    > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                    > the
                                                    > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                    finger
                                                    > > over the end.
                                                    > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                    > > whole thing more go?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dick
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                    > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                    > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                    > > steam a
                                                    > > > > lot faster.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                    > very
                                                    > > boiler
                                                    > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                    > less
                                                    > > thermal
                                                    > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > David 1/2d
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • Richard Mundy
                                                    Hi David, thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean- Yves points
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hi David,
                                                      thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun
                                                      and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean-
                                                      Yves points out, the likelyhood of a high powered big pop pop is very
                                                      slim.
                                                      Time to start torturing metal!!

                                                      Dick

                                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                      <dh1@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > --------------------------------------------------
                                                      > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                                      > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                      >
                                                      > > Hi David,
                                                      > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                      > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                      doing
                                                      > > it in a big tube.
                                                      > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                      momentum
                                                      > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                      boiler.
                                                      > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                      it.
                                                      > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                      > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                      > > valves.
                                                      > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                      the
                                                      > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                      > > over the end.
                                                      > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                      > > whole thing more go?
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                                      > something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in
                                                      this
                                                      > kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.
                                                      >
                                                      > We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of
                                                      unknown
                                                      > size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water
                                                      under
                                                      > rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low
                                                      speed
                                                      > under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental
                                                      data, and
                                                      > few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or
                                                      the
                                                      > thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level.
                                                      Despite
                                                      > the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than,
                                                      say, an
                                                      > ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been
                                                      usefully
                                                      > demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the
                                                      power
                                                      > required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.
                                                      >
                                                      > What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of
                                                      experiments in
                                                      > which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and
                                                      temperature
                                                      > sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear
                                                      computer "model"
                                                      > based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.
                                                      >
                                                      > The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of
                                                      a smart
                                                      > pensioner with modest means.
                                                      >
                                                      > Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions
                                                      about
                                                      > valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)
                                                      >
                                                      > David 1/2d
                                                      >
                                                    • David Halfpenny
                                                      ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM ... That s the spirit! D
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --------------------------------------------------
                                                        From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM

                                                        > Time to start torturing metal!!
                                                        >
                                                        That's the spirit! D
                                                      • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                                        Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because of the inertia of the
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 22, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                          less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                          of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                          It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                          classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                          other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port and
                                                          starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer progress
                                                          forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                          If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                          downward and the result will be the same.
                                                          Jean-Yves



                                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                          <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                          > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                          > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                          > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                          > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then
                                                          a
                                                          > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                          > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                          > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                          the
                                                          > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                          >
                                                          > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                          > it had been tried.
                                                          >
                                                          > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                          more
                                                          > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                          > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                          very
                                                          > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                          > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                          the
                                                          > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                          up
                                                          > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                          > efficiency, why?
                                                          >
                                                          > Dick
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                          > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Hi Dick,
                                                          > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                          > and
                                                          > > nozzle.
                                                          > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                          > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                          > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                          > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                          > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                          > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                          > > modification is negligible.
                                                          > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                          > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                          > candle
                                                          > > by sucking air!
                                                          > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                          > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                          > the
                                                          > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                          > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                          > > than the pushing one.
                                                          > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                          > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                          > of
                                                          > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                          > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                          acts
                                                          > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                          > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                          > best
                                                          > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                          Daryl
                                                          > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                          on
                                                          > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                          > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                          > > Jean-Yves
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                          > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Hi David,
                                                          > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                          another
                                                          > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                          > > doing
                                                          > > > it in a big tube.
                                                          > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                          > > momentum
                                                          > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                          > > boiler.
                                                          > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick
                                                          to
                                                          > > it.
                                                          > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                          > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                          > > > valves.
                                                          > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                          increase
                                                          > > the
                                                          > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                          > finger
                                                          > > > over the end.
                                                          > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                          the
                                                          > > > whole thing more go?
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Dick
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                          > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                          > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot
                                                          of
                                                          > > > steam a
                                                          > > > > > lot faster.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                          > > very
                                                          > > > boiler
                                                          > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                          > > less
                                                          > > > thermal
                                                          > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > > > David 1/2d
                                                          > > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • Richard Mundy
                                                          Hi Jean-Yves, Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the water column, but not its inertia. Dick ... and ... progress ...
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 23, 2009
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Hi Jean-Yves,

                                                            Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the
                                                            water column, but not its inertia.

                                                            Dick



                                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                            <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                            > less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                            > of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                            > It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                            > classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                            > other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port
                                                            and
                                                            > starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer
                                                            progress
                                                            > forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                            > If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                            > downward and the result will be the same.
                                                            > Jean-Yves
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                            > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                            > > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                            > > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few
                                                            experiments
                                                            > > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what
                                                            if'
                                                            > > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards
                                                            then
                                                            > a
                                                            > > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                            > > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                            > > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                            > the
                                                            > > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered
                                                            if
                                                            > > it had been tried.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                            > more
                                                            > > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                            > > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                            > very
                                                            > > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                            > > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                            > the
                                                            > > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                            > up
                                                            > > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                            > > efficiency, why?
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Dick
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                            > > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Hi Dick,
                                                            > > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing
                                                            intake
                                                            > > and
                                                            > > > nozzle.
                                                            > > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                            > > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake
                                                            (and
                                                            > > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion.
                                                            Even
                                                            > > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                            > > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                            > > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                            > > > modification is negligible.
                                                            > > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                            > > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                            > > candle
                                                            > > > by sucking air!
                                                            > > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                            > > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water
                                                            on
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                            > > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times
                                                            weaker
                                                            > > > than the pushing one.
                                                            > > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                            > > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the
                                                            velocity
                                                            > > of
                                                            > > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                            > > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                            > acts
                                                            > > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental.
                                                            We
                                                            > > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that
                                                            the
                                                            > > best
                                                            > > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                            > Daryl
                                                            > > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                            > on
                                                            > > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and
                                                            his
                                                            > > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                            > > > Jean-Yves
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                            > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Hi David,
                                                            > > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                            > another
                                                            > > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker
                                                            than
                                                            > > > doing
                                                            > > > > it in a big tube.
                                                            > > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                            > > > momentum
                                                            > > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                            > > > boiler.
                                                            > > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more
                                                            kick
                                                            > to
                                                            > > > it.
                                                            > > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                            > > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake
                                                            and
                                                            > > > > valves.
                                                            > > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                            > increase
                                                            > > > the
                                                            > > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                            > > finger
                                                            > > > > over the end.
                                                            > > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                            > the
                                                            > > > > whole thing more go?
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Dick
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                            > > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                            > > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                            > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a
                                                            lot
                                                            > of
                                                            > > > > steam a
                                                            > > > > > > lot faster.
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in
                                                            the
                                                            > > > very
                                                            > > > > boiler
                                                            > > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with
                                                            much
                                                            > > > less
                                                            > > > > thermal
                                                            > > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > David 1/2d
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
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