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Pop-Pop Boats in the News

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  • Frank McNeill
    Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids. old Frank
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
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      Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
      people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.

      old Frank
    • Richard Mundy
      Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it) Dick
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
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        Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or
        chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
        Dick



        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
        > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
        >
        > old Frank
        >
      • Frank McNeill
        Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby? Both of the recalled
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 15, 2009
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          Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
          Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
          Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
          licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
          they have been or what they have gotten into.

          Frank

          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          <coracles18@...> wrote:
          >
          > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to lick or
          > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
          > Dick
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
          > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
          > >
          > > old Frank
          > >
          >
        • Richard Mundy
          Hi Frank, its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very well. Quality is crap tho. Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Frank,
            its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
            well. Quality is crap tho.
            Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
            in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
            like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
            unless they start to sell big time.
            I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
            first to avoid catching anything :-)
            Dick


            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
            >
            > Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
            > Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
            > Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
            > licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
            > they have been or what they have gotten into.
            >
            > Frank
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > <coracles18@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
            lick or
            > > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
            > > Dick
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
            > > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
            > > >
            > > > old Frank
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Frank McNeill
            Hi Dick, The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but can t be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of tinplate, or
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
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              Hi Dick,

              The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
              can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
              tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are used.
              I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a kid.
              It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
              cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings about
              close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with just
              about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
              later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree of
              immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
              As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied the
              following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail address"

              Toys NOT Made in China
              Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will last
              www.nmctoys.com
              Classic Yacht Tenders
              Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
              DowneastPeapods.com
              Gorgeous Wood Toys
              Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
              www.DesignForPlay.com
              Waiting Room Toy Revolt
              Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
              www.SomethingForKids.com
              Haba Toys at Mod Mama
              Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and more
              modmama.com/toys.html

              Best wishes, Frank


              On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
              > Hi Frank,
              > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
              > well. Quality is crap tho.
              > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for children
              > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big kids
              > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like this
              > unless they start to sell big time.
              > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
              > first to avoid catching anything :-)
              > Dick
              >
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
              >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by Welby?
              >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
              >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know where
              >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
              >>
              >> Frank
              >>
              >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              >> <coracles18@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
              > lick or
              >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
              >> > Dick
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              >> > >
              >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not encourage
              >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
              >> > >
              >> > > old Frank
              >> > >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Richard Mundy
              Hi Frank, in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges etc. I had these toys as a kid, can t remember any accidents to me or my friends.
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
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                Hi Frank,
                in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
                etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
                my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
                TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                I think I may be going down with something!
                Dick

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Dick,
                >
                > The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
                > can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
                > tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                used.
                > I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                kid.
                > It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
                > cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                about
                > close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                just
                > about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
                > later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
                of
                > immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                > As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                the
                > following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                address"
                >
                > Toys NOT Made in China
                > Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                last
                > www.nmctoys.com
                > Classic Yacht Tenders
                > Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
                > DowneastPeapods.com
                > Gorgeous Wood Toys
                > Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                > www.DesignForPlay.com
                > Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                > Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                > www.SomethingForKids.com
                > Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                > Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                more
                > modmama.com/toys.html
                >
                > Best wishes, Frank
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                wrote:
                > > Hi Frank,
                > > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
                > > well. Quality is crap tho.
                > > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                children
                > > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
                kids
                > > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                this
                > > unless they start to sell big time.
                > > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
                > > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                > > Dick
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
                > >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                Welby?
                > >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
                > >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                where
                > >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                > >>
                > >> Frank
                > >>
                > >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                > >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
                > > lick or
                > >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                > >> > Dick
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                > >> > >
                > >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                encourage
                > >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                > >> > >
                > >> > > old Frank
                > >> > >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Frank McNeill
                Hi Dick, My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek known by
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
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                  Hi Dick,

                  My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                  would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little creek
                  known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                  throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
                  currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production and
                  marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
                  evidence of any results to report to date.

                  Best wishes, Frank




                  On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Frank,
                  > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed edges
                  > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to me or
                  > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that and
                  > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                  > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                  > I think I may be going down with something!
                  > Dick
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                  > <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Hi Dick,
                  >>
                  >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted but
                  >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made of
                  >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                  > used.
                  >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                  > kid.
                  >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in a
                  >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                  > about
                  >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                  > just
                  >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to us
                  >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a degree
                  > of
                  >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                  >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                  > the
                  >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                  > address"
                  >>
                  >> Toys NOT Made in China
                  >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                  > last
                  >> www.nmctoys.com
                  >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                  >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former shop.
                  >> DowneastPeapods.com
                  >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                  >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                  >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                  >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                  >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                  >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                  >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                  >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                  > more
                  >> modmama.com/toys.html
                  >>
                  >> Best wishes, Frank
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >> > Hi Frank,
                  >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works very
                  >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                  >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                  > children
                  >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or big
                  > kids
                  >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                  > this
                  >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                  >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a hanky
                  >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                  >> > Dick
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                  >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic produced by
                  >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                  > Welby?
                  >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As for
                  >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                  > where
                  >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Frank
                  >> >>
                  >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember not to
                  >> > lick or
                  >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                  >> >> > Dick
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                  >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                  > encourage
                  >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > old Frank
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >>
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > ------------------------------------
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Richard Mundy
                  Hi Frank, I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something a little heavier
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Frank,
                    I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                    powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push something
                    a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model shop,
                    or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                    available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                    heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.

                    On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from Delphion
                    (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                    If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                    was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull inventions,
                    fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                    to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went to
                    the expence of patenting something that didn't work.

                    Dick





                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                    <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Dick,
                    >
                    > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                    > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                    creek
                    > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                    > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead. I'm
                    > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage production
                    and
                    > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin. No
                    > evidence of any results to report to date.
                    >
                    > Best wishes, Frank
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@...>
                    wrote:
                    > > Hi Frank,
                    > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                    edges
                    > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                    me or
                    > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                    and
                    > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                    > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                    > > I think I may be going down with something!
                    > > Dick
                    > >
                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                    > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> Hi Dick,
                    > >>
                    > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                    but
                    > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are made
                    of
                    > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                    > > used.
                    > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was a
                    > > kid.
                    > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course in
                    a
                    > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with warnings
                    > > about
                    > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down with
                    > > just
                    > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along to
                    us
                    > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                    degree
                    > > of
                    > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still available.
                    > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I copied
                    > > the
                    > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                    > > address"
                    > >>
                    > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                    > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that will
                    > > last
                    > >> www.nmctoys.com
                    > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                    > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                    shop.
                    > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                    > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                    > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                    > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                    > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                    > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                    > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                    > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                    > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat and
                    > > more
                    > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                    > >>
                    > >> Best wishes, Frank
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >> > Hi Frank,
                    > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                    very
                    > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                    > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                    > > children
                    > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                    big
                    > > kids
                    > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything like
                    > > this
                    > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                    > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                    hanky
                    > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                    > >> > Dick
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                    > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                    produced by
                    > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced by
                    > > Welby?
                    > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby. As
                    for
                    > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never know
                    > > where
                    > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Frank
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                    not to
                    > >> > lick or
                    > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                    > >> >> > Dick
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                    > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                    > > encourage
                    > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> > > old Frank
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > ------------------------------------
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • David Halfpenny
                    ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM ... Let s hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 17, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --------------------------------------------------
                      From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                      Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:00 PM

                      > I should not think he went to
                      > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                      Let's hope not, but it is worth recalling that thousands of patent
                      applications for perpetual motion machines are submitted.

                      David 1/2d
                    • Jean-Yves Renaud
                      Hi Frank and Dick, I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came to
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Frank and Dick,
                        I have got and studied several reports and patent papers from Peter
                        Payne, and I know a retired professor who also studied them. We came
                        to the same conclusion: In spite of a laudatory bibliography
                        (according to his children) that is easy to find on Internet, the
                        works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                        jets) are not impressive. It is said that Mr Payne and his
                        company "Payne, Inc." got money for years from US Navy and Energy
                        Department. To justify the usefulness of these donations and to get
                        some more ones, Mr Payne had to publish documents and to do
                        conferences. At that game it seems he was excellent, but what do we
                        find in his writings?
                        • Many ideas, formulas, pieces of patents…invented by others.
                        Nevertheless, it must be confessed that Mr Payne said who wrote what.
                        But he could have an ulterior motive in doing that: to improve an
                        apparent credibility.
                        • Many assumptions (assuming that… It is presumed that…)
                        allowing to building demonstrations which really are not.
                        • Impressive equations for the layman, but having sometimes a
                        very remote connection with the subject.
                        • Laws of physics that are invented, or that are well known but
                        modified to justify the result of experiments. Ex: 2/4=2.47 becomes
                        2.0 without justification.
                        • Curves which don't go through measured dots…though these dots
                        follow sometimes a well known law.
                        • A beautiful curve (fig 13 in doc 749153) going through many
                        dots which in fact could be only one dot if we take into account the
                        uncertainty of the measurement.
                        • Hairsplitting around simple experimental laws to make they
                        become complicated.
                        • Gratuitous assertions (ex: P-V diagram) or false ones (ex: in
                        McHugh engine some water is trapped because the tube is raised above
                        the floor of the boiler).
                        • Efficiency prospects which are very very optimistic, though
                        decreasing with years.
                        • Technical non-senses. Ex: to evacuate air, a relief valve
                        suffices. This would mean that the presence of air increases the max
                        pressure in the cycle. On one hand it is not proven, and on the other
                        hand if it was true it would be better to trap air inside.
                        • Reuse from one year to the next one.
                        • Patents enlarged to non realistic possible applications:
                        diverging nozzle, thrust control valve…
                        • Truths hidden for layman. Ex: with a 1" pop-pop engine, a 14
                        foot aluminum (=light) rowboat reached a speed of 1.0 ft/sec. With
                        more common units for non Americans, knowing that the speed evolves
                        with the cubic root of the power, and knowing that such a boat
                        reaches approximately 20 km/h with a 4 kW engine (5.5HP), one
                        thousands of a horse power (less than 1 Watt) suffices to reach 1
                        ft/sec. And if the wind blows in the right direction….

                        This means that only few new and useful things could be gotten from
                        Mr Payne's publications. Yet, according to the enormous means which
                        were available to Payne Inc. some points might have increased the
                        knowledge we have of the pop-pop engine. It's a pity!...


                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        <coracles18@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Frank,
                        > I have been thinking along these lines. The Titanic is quite
                        > powerful, so several pop pop engines should be able to push
                        something
                        > a little heavier with RC, either proper 2 channel from a model
                        shop,
                        > or scavenged from one of the cheap mass produced RC toys now
                        > available. Providing proper provision is made for dealing with the
                        > heat and associated fire hazard, almost any material could be used.
                        >
                        > On another note, I have downloaded Peter Paynes Patent from
                        Delphion
                        > (sign on as a guest and it is $3 per pdf download).
                        > If you haven't read it, it is staggering. Assuming it works, and he
                        > was a very clever man with quite a pedigree of successfull
                        inventions,
                        > fullsize pop pop is already a reality. He appears to a large extent
                        > to have solved the efficiency problems. I should not think he went
                        to
                        > the expence of patenting something that didn't work.
                        >
                        > Dick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                        > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Dick,
                        > >
                        > > My only objection to tin pop-pop boats from my youth was that they
                        > > would almost invariable wind up on the opposite side of a little
                        > creek
                        > > known by small boys as "peter deep." Efforts to retrieve them by
                        > > throwing stones or throw lines would usually sink them instead.
                        I'm
                        > > currently working on the problem by trying to encourage
                        production
                        > and
                        > > marketing of R/C pop-pops made of just about anything except tin.
                        No
                        > > evidence of any results to report to date.
                        > >
                        > > Best wishes, Frank
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > Hi Frank,
                        > > > in UK and Europe its tinplate in general, nasty sharp exposed
                        > edges
                        > > > etc. I had these toys as a kid, can't remember any accidents to
                        > me or
                        > > > my friends. In any case kids need exposure to some danger, that
                        > and
                        > > > TV may explain a lot of our social problems.
                        > > > Thanks for the list, I will look them up.
                        > > > I think I may be going down with something!
                        > > > Dick
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Frank McNeill
                        > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Hi Dick,
                        > > >>
                        > > >> The Rattandeep boats are lithographed instead of being painted
                        > but
                        > > >> can't be sold as toys in the US, possibly because they are
                        made
                        > of
                        > > >> tinplate, or possibly because they get pretty hot when they are
                        > > > used.
                        > > >> I recall having one pop-pop boat made of Balsa wood when I was
                        a
                        > > > kid.
                        > > >> It was too big for the pop-pop engine and would go off course
                        in
                        > a
                        > > >> cross wind, or breeze. Children really should come with
                        warnings
                        > > > about
                        > > >> close exposure. Our daughter is a school teacher ,comes down
                        with
                        > > > just
                        > > >> about every contagious disease there is and passes them along
                        to
                        > us
                        > > >> later. My mother was also a school teacher so I might have a
                        > degree
                        > > > of
                        > > >> immunity to some of the older diseases that are still
                        available.
                        > > >> As proof that Google's array of computers read our mail, I
                        copied
                        > > > the
                        > > >> following stuff from the sidebar of your message to my gmail
                        > > > address"
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Toys NOT Made in China
                        > > >> Quality natural and hand-made toys Toys without worries that
                        will
                        > > > last
                        > > >> www.nmctoys.com
                        > > >> Classic Yacht Tenders
                        > > >> Hand-built carvel plank row boats built in Jim Steele's former
                        > shop.
                        > > >> DowneastPeapods.com
                        > > >> Gorgeous Wood Toys
                        > > >> Safe, Eco-friendly and Durable. No Paint. No Stains. No Toxins.
                        > > >> www.DesignForPlay.com
                        > > >> Waiting Room Toy Revolt
                        > > >> Many sell you waiting room toys We take care of them!
                        > > >> www.SomethingForKids.com
                        > > >> Haba Toys at Mod Mama
                        > > >> Big selection of safe toys for kids Haba, Plan Toys, Jellycat
                        and
                        > > > more
                        > > >> modmama.com/toys.html
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Best wishes, Frank
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mundy <coracles18@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > >> > Hi Frank,
                        > > >> > its a Rattandeep, I have tried it in the bath and it works
                        > very
                        > > >> > well. Quality is crap tho.
                        > > >> > Tin toys have no CE mark so cannot be legally sold to or for
                        > > > children
                        > > >> > in the UK or Europe. The can only be sold to "collectors" or
                        > big
                        > > > kids
                        > > >> > like me, so they probably won't bother to recall anything
                        like
                        > > > this
                        > > >> > unless they start to sell big time.
                        > > >> > I love the tast of little children!I use a bit of spit on a
                        > hanky
                        > > >> > first to avoid catching anything :-)
                        > > >> > Dick
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                        > > >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                        > > >> >>
                        > > >> >> Which Titanic did you order, the 15-inch long Titanic
                        > produced by
                        > > >> >> Rattandeep Enterprise or the 13-inch long Titanic produced
                        by
                        > > > Welby?
                        > > >> >> Both of the recalled pop-pop boats were produced by Welby.
                        As
                        > for
                        > > >> >> licking or chewing grandchildren, don't do it. You never
                        know
                        > > > where
                        > > >> >> they have been or what they have gotten into.
                        > > >> >>
                        > > >> >> Frank
                        > > >> >>
                        > > >> >> --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        > > >> >> <coracles18@> wrote:
                        > > >> >> >
                        > > >> >> > Oh bugger, Ihave just ordered a Titanic. I must remember
                        > not to
                        > > >> > lick or
                        > > >> >> > chew it! (Or my grandchildren come to think of it)
                        > > >> >> > Dick
                        > > >> >> >
                        > > >> >> >
                        > > >> >> >
                        > > >> >> > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                        > > >> >> > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                        > > >> >> > >
                        > > >> >> > > Go to http://tinyurl.com/869zxv for news that will not
                        > > > encourage
                        > > >> >> > > people to buy pop-pop boats for their kids.
                        > > >> >> > >
                        > > >> >> > > old Frank
                        > > >> >> > >
                        > > >> >> >
                        > > >> >>
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> > ------------------------------------
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >> >
                        > > >>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • David Halfpenny
                        ... From: Jean-Yves Renaud Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM To: Subject:
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --------------------------------------------------
                          From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                          Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                          To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                          > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed water
                          > jets) are not impressive.

                          I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty convincingly that
                          full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.

                          Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or military
                          applications.

                          David 1/2d
                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi Jean-Yves & David, thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Jean-Yves & David,

                            thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have found
                            two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                            am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                            group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                            All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially uses
                            a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                            temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                            (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency makes
                            it considerably more complicated.
                            In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                            these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                            vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                            I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                            and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                            Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                            results.

                            Dick

                            Dick



                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                            <dh1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------
                            > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@...>
                            > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                            > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                            >
                            > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or pulsed
                            water
                            > > jets) are not impressive.
                            >
                            > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                            convincingly that
                            > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                            >
                            > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                            military
                            > applications.
                            >
                            > David 1/2d
                            >
                          • Jean-Yves Renaud
                            Hi Dick, No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the smaller the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Dick,

                              No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                              alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine the
                              smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter there
                              is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                              engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless steel
                              pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                              closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                              hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                              Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                              manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard pull=0.108N.
                              Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                              power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                              (and others of this group) to play with.

                              Jean-Yves


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              <coracles18@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                              >
                              > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                              found
                              > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple I
                              > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                              > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                              > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                              uses
                              > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                              > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                              > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                              makes
                              > it considerably more complicated.
                              > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one of
                              > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                              > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                              > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his retirement,
                              > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                              > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                              > results.
                              >
                              > Dick
                              >
                              > Dick
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                              > <dh1@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --------------------------------------------------
                              > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                              > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                              > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                              > >
                              > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                              pulsed
                              > water
                              > > > jets) are not impressive.
                              > >
                              > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                              > convincingly that
                              > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                              > >
                              > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                              > military
                              > > applications.
                              > >
                              > > David 1/2d
                              > >
                              >
                            • Richard Mundy
                              Hi Jean-Yves, There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines, I still can t resist the temptation to play! Dick ... the ... there ... steel
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Jean-Yves,

                                There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                                I still can't resist the temptation to play!

                                Dick


                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Dick,
                                >
                                > No need of a hammer head boiler on a big engine. Hammer head is an
                                > alternative among many others. Furthermore, the bigger the engine
                                the
                                > smaller the boiler (comparatively). Above a given pipe diameter
                                there
                                > is even no need of a boiler. The pipe itself suffices. Among my big
                                > engines one of the most reliable engines is a simple stainless
                                steel
                                > pipe (inner diameter 18.2mm) with the upper end bended, pinched and
                                > closed by brazing. Every time I tested it, it started without any
                                > hesitation and ran without any burnout.
                                > Such a description could be an invitation to dream about powering a
                                > manned boat, but I must add some data. Thrust at bollard
                                pull=0.108N.
                                > Max delivered power=0.0273W at a boat speed of 0.506m/s. So little
                                > power render this engine useless…except for people like you and me
                                > (and others of this group) to play with.
                                >
                                > Jean-Yves
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Jean-Yves & David,
                                > >
                                > > thank you for your replies, it all looks pretty damming. I have
                                > found
                                > > two patents the first is incredibly simple (3,898,800), so simple
                                I
                                > > am surprised nobody in this group seems to have made one. I did a
                                > > group search on 'Payne', and looked through the photo's etc.
                                > > All the big pop pops use a hammer head boiler. Payne essentially
                                > uses
                                > > a simple closed tube. He states that it is not self starting, a
                                > > temporary piston or other means are required. A second patent
                                > > (4,057,961) elaborates on his system and to improve efficiency
                                > makes
                                > > it considerably more complicated.
                                > > In the spirit of the garden shed, I feel compelled to build one
                                of
                                > > these. If I can get it working with a descent output it will
                                > > vindicate Payne. If I can't, then you can all 'tell me so'.
                                > > I suspect Payne treated this as a hobby project in his
                                retirement,
                                > > and like so many hobby projects never came to anything.
                                > > Sorry to ignore all the advice, will keep the group posted on the
                                > > results.
                                > >
                                > > Dick
                                > >
                                > > Dick
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                > > > From: "Jean-Yves Renaud" <boite.de.j-y@>
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:02 AM
                                > > > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                                boats.
                                > > >
                                > > > > the works of Peter R. Payne concerning pop-pop engines (or
                                > pulsed
                                > > water
                                > > > > jets) are not impressive.
                                > > >
                                > > > I'd go further and say that Payne has demonstrated pretty
                                > > convincingly that
                                > > > full-sized pop-pop is a hobby activity.
                                > > >
                                > > > Something new will have to happen for it to have commercial or
                                > > military
                                > > > applications.
                                > > >
                                > > > David 1/2d
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • David Halfpenny
                                Go for it. How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as the spring ? Should David 1/2d ... From: Richard Mundy
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Go for it.

                                  How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic system as
                                  the "spring" ?

                                  Should

                                  David 1/2d

                                  --------------------------------------------------
                                  From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                  Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                  To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                  > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                  >
                                  > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big engines,
                                  > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                  >
                                • Richard Mundy
                                  Hi David, I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air receiver/spring, by
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi David,
                                    I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                    working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                    receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.

                                    I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                    think Compuserve have existed for some years.

                                    Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).

                                    Dick

                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                    <dh1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Go for it.
                                    >
                                    > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                    system as
                                    > the "spring" ?
                                    >
                                    > Should
                                    >
                                    > David 1/2d
                                    >
                                    > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                    > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                    >
                                    > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                    > >
                                    > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                    engines,
                                    > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Pete B.
                                    Hi Dick, For starters check out Dan Noyes s photo album Dory pop-pop , images 21-28. He has a 4 pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger engine designs.
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Hi Dick,

                                      For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop", images 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of  engine larger engine designs.

                                       

                                      Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer Head" engine
                                       
                                      Dan would more than gladly share his experiences.
                                       
                                      Pete

                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi David,
                                      > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get this
                                      > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                      > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                      >
                                      > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                      > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                      >
                                      > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                      >
                                      > Dick
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                      > dh1@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Go for it.
                                      > >
                                      > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                      > system as
                                      > > the "spring" ?
                                      > >
                                      > > Should
                                      > >
                                      > > David 1/2d
                                      > >
                                      > > --------------------------------------------------
                                      > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                      > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                      > >
                                      > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                      > engines,
                                      > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Richard Mundy
                                      Hi Pete, thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam or compresed
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Pete,
                                        thanks for this. Finally got round to looking at Paynes second pop
                                        pop patent(4,057,961). This is not a pop pop, but is a diesel, steam
                                        or compresed air pump suitable for propulsion. The existance of this
                                        patent indicates to me thst he felt his previous patent device was
                                        not efficient. It worked, but not that well (as everyone has been
                                        telling me).
                                        My own thoughts on this are the problem is the spead of creating
                                        steam. With a small model you only need to heat a drop of water.
                                        As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                        lot faster. The hammer head boiler goes some way to achieving this.
                                        I suspect better would be a multitube flash steam boiler. Or to heat
                                        the water by microwave!
                                        The water needs to get down that tube fast!

                                        Dick



                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Dick,
                                        >
                                        > For starters check out Dan Noyes's photo album "Dory pop-pop",
                                        images
                                        > 21-28. He has a 4' pop-pop boat and a couple of engine larger
                                        engine
                                        > designs.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Boiler building directions: dory engine and experimental "Hammer
                                        Head"
                                        > engine Dan would more than gladly share his experiences. Pete
                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                        > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi David,
                                        > > I intend to start with a copper pipe and braze a end cap on. Get
                                        this
                                        > > working then start experimenting. I like the idea of an air
                                        > > receiver/spring, by all accounts I am waisting my time tho.
                                        > >
                                        > > I did try emailing Graeme Payne, but it bounced, but then I don't
                                        > > think Compuserve have existed for some years.
                                        > >
                                        > > Will post failures as well as successes(if any!).
                                        > >
                                        > > Dick
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                        > > dh1@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Go for it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How about using an air receiver/accumulator out of a hydraulic
                                        > > system as
                                        > > > the "spring" ?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Should
                                        > > >
                                        > > > David 1/2d
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                        > > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:14 PM
                                        > > > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper
                                        boats.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > There is a superb simplicity and brutality about these big
                                        > > engines,
                                        > > > > I still can't resist the temptation to play!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • David Halfpenny
                                        ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM ... AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --------------------------------------------------
                                          From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM

                                          > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of steam a
                                          > lot faster.

                                          AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very boiler
                                          you have just heated it in!

                                          That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less thermal
                                          capacity to heat and cool each pulse.

                                          David 1/2d
                                        • Richard Mundy
                                          Hi David, I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing it in a big
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi David,
                                            I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                            problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                            it in a big tube.
                                            An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                            of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                            This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                            If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                            More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                            valves.
                                            Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                            velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                            over the end.
                                            This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                            whole thing more go?

                                            Dick



                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                            <dh1@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --------------------------------------------------
                                            > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                            >
                                            > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                            steam a
                                            > > lot faster.
                                            >
                                            > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                            boiler
                                            > you have just heated it in!
                                            >
                                            > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                            thermal
                                            > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                            >
                                            > David 1/2d
                                            >
                                          • Sparks, Matthew - McClatchy Corporate
                                            If you really want to see what you re up against, check out the mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and mounted two of the large
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 20, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                              mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                              mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.

                                              http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/

                                              Matt Sparks -

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Mundy
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                              To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                              Hi David,
                                              I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                              problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                              it in a big tube.
                                              An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                              of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                              This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                              If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                              More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                              valves.
                                              Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                              velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                              over the end.
                                              This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                              whole thing more go?

                                              Dick



                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                              <dh1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --------------------------------------------------
                                              > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                              >
                                              > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                              steam a
                                              > > lot faster.
                                              >
                                              > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the very
                                              boiler
                                              > you have just heated it in!
                                              >
                                              > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much less
                                              thermal
                                              > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                              >
                                              > David 1/2d
                                              >



                                              ------------------------------------

                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                              Hi Dick, I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and nozzle. 1°) Facing intake. Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Dick,
                                                I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake and
                                                nozzle.
                                                1°) Facing intake.
                                                Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                modification is negligible.
                                                • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a candle
                                                by sucking air!
                                                • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on the
                                                bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                than the pushing one.
                                                2°) Nozzle.
                                                The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity of
                                                the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                                also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the best
                                                nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                                is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                                this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                Jean-Yves


                                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi David,
                                                > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                doing
                                                > it in a big tube.
                                                > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                momentum
                                                > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                boiler.
                                                > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                it.
                                                > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                > valves.
                                                > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                the
                                                > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                > over the end.
                                                > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                > whole thing more go?
                                                >
                                                > Dick
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                > steam a
                                                > > > lot faster.
                                                > >
                                                > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                very
                                                > boiler
                                                > > you have just heated it in!
                                                > >
                                                > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                less
                                                > thermal
                                                > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                > >
                                                > > David 1/2d
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • David Halfpenny
                                                ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM To: Subject:
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  --------------------------------------------------
                                                  From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                                  To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.

                                                  > Hi David,
                                                  > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                  > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than doing
                                                  > it in a big tube.
                                                  > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the momentum
                                                  > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the boiler.
                                                  > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to it.
                                                  > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                  > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                  > valves.
                                                  > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase the
                                                  > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                  > over the end.
                                                  > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                  > whole thing more go?
                                                  >

                                                  This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                                  something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in this
                                                  kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.

                                                  We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of unknown
                                                  size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water under
                                                  rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low speed
                                                  under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental data, and
                                                  few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or the
                                                  thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level. Despite
                                                  the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than, say, an
                                                  ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been usefully
                                                  demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the power
                                                  required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.

                                                  What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of experiments in
                                                  which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and temperature
                                                  sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear computer "model"
                                                  based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.

                                                  The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of a smart
                                                  pensioner with modest means.

                                                  Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions about
                                                  valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)

                                                  David 1/2d
                                                • Richard Mundy
                                                  Hi Matt, good to hear from you, I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Matt, good to hear from you,

                                                    I remember something similar using a wheelchair. Quite exiting for
                                                    the occupier of the wheelchair,but it was all over quite quickly.
                                                    Problem with a boat is it won't go any spead unless you can get it on
                                                    the plane, which takes a lot of energy! The boat needs to be lifted
                                                    out and placed on top of the water.
                                                    Even I am not optimistic enough to expect to get a pop pop to plane.

                                                    Dick

                                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sparks, Matthew -
                                                    McClatchy Corporate" <msparks@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > If you really want to see what you're up against, check out the
                                                    > mythbusters episode where they took a fiberglass speedboat hull and
                                                    > mounted two of the large compressed air cylineders.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://televizzle.org/2006/12/06/air-cylinder-rocket/
                                                    >
                                                    > Matt Sparks -
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > [mailto:pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
                                                    Mundy
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                    > To: pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi David,
                                                    > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                    > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                    doing
                                                    > it in a big tube.
                                                    > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                    momentum
                                                    > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                    boiler.
                                                    > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                    it.
                                                    > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                    > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                    > valves.
                                                    > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                    the
                                                    > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                    > over the end.
                                                    > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                    > whole thing more go?
                                                    >
                                                    > Dick
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                    > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                    > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                    > steam a
                                                    > > > lot faster.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                    very
                                                    > boiler
                                                    > > you have just heated it in!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                    less
                                                    > thermal
                                                    > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > David 1/2d
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                  • Richard Mundy
                                                    Hi Jean-Yves, you keep knocking down my skittles:-). Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                      you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                      Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                      perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                      angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then a
                                                      little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                      intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                      designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make the
                                                      forward facing inlet pointless.

                                                      On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                      it had been tried.

                                                      Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold more
                                                      energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                      atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is very
                                                      rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                      tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of the
                                                      pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed up
                                                      the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                      efficiency, why?

                                                      Dick


                                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                      <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Dick,
                                                      > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                      and
                                                      > nozzle.
                                                      > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                      > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                      > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                      > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                      > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                      > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                      > modification is negligible.
                                                      > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                      > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                      candle
                                                      > by sucking air!
                                                      > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                      > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                      the
                                                      > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                      > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                      > than the pushing one.
                                                      > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                      > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                      of
                                                      > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                      > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle acts
                                                      > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                      > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                      best
                                                      > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum Daryl
                                                      > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge on
                                                      > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                      > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                      > Jean-Yves
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                      > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hi David,
                                                      > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                      > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                      > doing
                                                      > > it in a big tube.
                                                      > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                      > momentum
                                                      > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                      > boiler.
                                                      > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                      > it.
                                                      > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                      > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                      > > valves.
                                                      > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                      > the
                                                      > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                      finger
                                                      > > over the end.
                                                      > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                      > > whole thing more go?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Dick
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                      > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                      > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot of
                                                      > > steam a
                                                      > > > > lot faster.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                      > very
                                                      > > boiler
                                                      > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                      > less
                                                      > > thermal
                                                      > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > David 1/2d
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Richard Mundy
                                                      Hi David, thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean- Yves points
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Hi David,
                                                        thanks for putting this into perspective, this is entirely for fun
                                                        and is a subject that can be tinkered with indefinately, but as Jean-
                                                        Yves points out, the likelyhood of a high powered big pop pop is very
                                                        slim.
                                                        Time to start torturing metal!!

                                                        Dick

                                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                        <dh1@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > --------------------------------------------------
                                                        > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:02 PM
                                                        > To: <pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        > Subject: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Peter R Payne and proper boats.
                                                        >
                                                        > > Hi David,
                                                        > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates another
                                                        > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                        doing
                                                        > > it in a big tube.
                                                        > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                        momentum
                                                        > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                        boiler.
                                                        > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick to
                                                        it.
                                                        > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                        > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                        > > valves.
                                                        > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly increase
                                                        the
                                                        > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your finger
                                                        > > over the end.
                                                        > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give the
                                                        > > whole thing more go?
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        > This is basically a bit of fun in the bathtub. But if Payne missed
                                                        > something big, as well he might, then we aren't going to find it in
                                                        this
                                                        > kind of conversation, entertaining as it is.
                                                        >
                                                        > We are talking about a resonant system involving an air spring of
                                                        unknown
                                                        > size, ever-reversing heat flow, the properties of steam and water
                                                        under
                                                        > rapidly varying pressure, and the movement of a heavy craft at low
                                                        speed
                                                        > under tiny fluctuating loads. There is virtually no experimental
                                                        data, and
                                                        > few if any of our members have either the maths, the mechanics or
                                                        the
                                                        > thermodynamics to discuss any part of it at a theoretical level.
                                                        Despite
                                                        > the simplicity of the device, it is vastly more complicated than,
                                                        say, an
                                                        > ordinary three cylinder compound marine steam engine. It has been
                                                        usefully
                                                        > demonstrated by Payne that when scaled up in a simple manner the
                                                        power
                                                        > required became enormous yet the result remained pathetic.
                                                        >
                                                        > What would be needed to improve on that would be a set of
                                                        experiments in
                                                        > which every part of the apparatus had rapid-acting pressure and
                                                        temperature
                                                        > sensors, backed up an ever more sophisticated non-linear
                                                        computer "model"
                                                        > based on real thermodynamics until the whole process was understood.
                                                        >
                                                        > The exciting thing is that this is actually all within the scope of
                                                        a smart
                                                        > pensioner with modest means.
                                                        >
                                                        > Meanwhile, the complexity is such that the best answer to questions
                                                        about
                                                        > valves and nozzles is still "Try it!" (Please.)
                                                        >
                                                        > David 1/2d
                                                        >
                                                      • David Halfpenny
                                                        ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM ... That s the spirit! D
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 21, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --------------------------------------------------
                                                          From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                                          Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:31 PM

                                                          > Time to start torturing metal!!
                                                          >
                                                          That's the spirit! D
                                                        • Jean-Yves Renaud
                                                          Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because of the inertia of the
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 22, 2009
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                            less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                            of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                            It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                            classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                            other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port and
                                                            starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer progress
                                                            forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                            If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                            downward and the result will be the same.
                                                            Jean-Yves



                                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                            <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                            > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                            > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few experiments
                                                            > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what if'
                                                            > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards then
                                                            a
                                                            > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                            > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                            > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                            the
                                                            > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                            >
                                                            > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered if
                                                            > it had been tried.
                                                            >
                                                            > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                            more
                                                            > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                            > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                            very
                                                            > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                            > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                            the
                                                            > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                            up
                                                            > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                            > efficiency, why?
                                                            >
                                                            > Dick
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                            > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Hi Dick,
                                                            > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing intake
                                                            > and
                                                            > > nozzle.
                                                            > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                            > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake (and
                                                            > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion. Even
                                                            > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                            > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                            > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                            > > modification is negligible.
                                                            > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                            > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                            > candle
                                                            > > by sucking air!
                                                            > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                            > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water on
                                                            > the
                                                            > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                            > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times weaker
                                                            > > than the pushing one.
                                                            > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                            > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the velocity
                                                            > of
                                                            > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                            > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                            acts
                                                            > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental. We
                                                            > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that the
                                                            > best
                                                            > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                            Daryl
                                                            > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                            on
                                                            > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and his
                                                            > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                            > > Jean-Yves
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                            > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Hi David,
                                                            > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                            another
                                                            > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker than
                                                            > > doing
                                                            > > > it in a big tube.
                                                            > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                            > > momentum
                                                            > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                            > > boiler.
                                                            > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more kick
                                                            to
                                                            > > it.
                                                            > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                            > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake and
                                                            > > > valves.
                                                            > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                            increase
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                            > finger
                                                            > > > over the end.
                                                            > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                            the
                                                            > > > whole thing more go?
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Dick
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                            > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                            > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                            > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a lot
                                                            of
                                                            > > > steam a
                                                            > > > > > lot faster.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in the
                                                            > > very
                                                            > > > boiler
                                                            > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with much
                                                            > > less
                                                            > > > thermal
                                                            > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > David 1/2d
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                          • Richard Mundy
                                                            Hi Jean-Yves, Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the water column, but not its inertia. Dick ... and ... progress ...
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 23, 2009
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Hi Jean-Yves,

                                                              Yet another thing to think about. I had thought about momentum of the
                                                              water column, but not its inertia.

                                                              Dick



                                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                              <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Dick, your biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved back and forth (more or
                                                              > less as every pop-pop boat) not because of the suction, but because
                                                              > of the inertia of the water contained inside the pipes.
                                                              > It very easy to demonstrate that the suction is not the cause. On a
                                                              > classic pop-pop boat with two pipes, just bend one on port and the
                                                              > other one on starboard. Thus, there will be no more thrust (port
                                                              and
                                                              > starboard being equal and opposite). The boat will no longer
                                                              progress
                                                              > forward, but it will go on vibrating back and forth as before.
                                                              > If you have a single pipe engine, just bend the outlet vertically
                                                              > downward and the result will be the same.
                                                              > Jean-Yves
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                              > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Hi Jean-Yves,
                                                              > > you keep knocking down my skittles:-).
                                                              > > Seriously, I value your input hugely. Apart from a few
                                                              experiments
                                                              > > perhaps 10 years ago, I am coming at this subject from a 'what
                                                              if'
                                                              > > angle. I remember my biscuit tin/blow lamp boat moved forwards
                                                              then
                                                              > a
                                                              > > little back per cycle. So there is a slight reverse pull on the
                                                              > > intake. I suspect tho that that the valves unless very carefully
                                                              > > designed would further reduce efficiency and as you suggest make
                                                              > the
                                                              > > forward facing inlet pointless.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > On the subject of nozzles, I have no experience, I just wondered
                                                              if
                                                              > > it had been tried.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Conventional boilers work at high pressure so the steam can hold
                                                              > more
                                                              > > energy. In a pop pop the boiler is, via the water, open to the
                                                              > > atmosphere. effectively like a kettle, and the steam produced is
                                                              > very
                                                              > > rapidly condensed by contact with the water and the unlagged exit
                                                              > > tube. All this accounts for at least some of the inefficiency of
                                                              > the
                                                              > > pop pop, hence throttling the output to up the pressure and speed
                                                              > up
                                                              > > the output flow. But will it still work? If it actually reduces
                                                              > > efficiency, why?
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Dick
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
                                                              > > <boite.de.j-y@> wrote:
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Hi Dick,
                                                              > > > I would like to comment 2 topics of your last post: facing
                                                              intake
                                                              > > and
                                                              > > > nozzle.
                                                              > > > 1°) Facing intake.
                                                              > > > Everybody thinks at the beginning that using a facing intake
                                                              (and
                                                              > > > valves) could improve the performance of pop-pop propulsion.
                                                              Even
                                                              > > > Peter Payne thought that. But facing intake is useless, or more
                                                              > > > exactly so inefficient that it becomes useless.
                                                              > > > • By math demo it can be proven that the effect of such a
                                                              > > > modification is negligible.
                                                              > > > • For those who dislike math, there is an easy way to check
                                                              > > > that sucking is far less efficient than blowing. Try to blow a
                                                              > > candle
                                                              > > > by sucking air!
                                                              > > > • In addition, to prove this inefficiency, 2 years ago I built
                                                              > > > a small boat with an electric pump to show that sucking water
                                                              on
                                                              > > the
                                                              > > > bow has a negligible impact; though a jet backward propels. The
                                                              > > > pulling force (when sucking) was roughly 20 millions times
                                                              weaker
                                                              > > > than the pushing one.
                                                              > > > 2°) Nozzle.
                                                              > > > The thrust of a waterjet evolving with the square of the
                                                              velocity
                                                              > > of
                                                              > > > the water that is expelled it seems evident that a nozzle could
                                                              > > > improve the performance. However, on a pop-pop engine a nozzle
                                                              > acts
                                                              > > > also on the frequency, stroke volume…and this is detrimental.
                                                              We
                                                              > > > don't know enough to give precise figures, but it seems that
                                                              the
                                                              > > best
                                                              > > > nozzle has a diameter reduced by only 5 to 10%. On this forum
                                                              > Daryl
                                                              > > > is very likely the one who has got the best practical knowledge
                                                              > on
                                                              > > > this topic. Most of his engines are provided with nozzles and
                                                              his
                                                              > > > engines are among the best ones if not the best.
                                                              > > > Jean-Yves
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                                              > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > > Hi David,
                                                              > > > > I think the condensing is done in the tube, which creates
                                                              > another
                                                              > > > > problem. Condensing steam in a tiny tube is a lot quicker
                                                              than
                                                              > > > doing
                                                              > > > > it in a big tube.
                                                              > > > > An interesting aspect of Paynes original patent is using the
                                                              > > > momentum
                                                              > > > > of the returning water to compress the remaining steam in the
                                                              > > > boiler.
                                                              > > > > This should raise the boiling point so the steam has more
                                                              kick
                                                              > to
                                                              > > > it.
                                                              > > > > If this effect is significant I have no idea.
                                                              > > > > More important I suspect is to have a forward facing intake
                                                              and
                                                              > > > > valves.
                                                              > > > > Also, what about an output nozzle? you can significantly
                                                              > increase
                                                              > > > the
                                                              > > > > velocity of water coming out of a hosepipe by sticking your
                                                              > > finger
                                                              > > > > over the end.
                                                              > > > > This would also increase the pressure in the boiler and give
                                                              > the
                                                              > > > > whole thing more go?
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > > Dick
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                                              > > > > <dh1@> wrote:
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                              > > > > > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@>
                                                              > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:44 PM
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > > As the engines grow bigger there is a need to create a
                                                              lot
                                                              > of
                                                              > > > > steam a
                                                              > > > > > > lot faster.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > AND then condense a tube-full of it in a similar time, in
                                                              the
                                                              > > > very
                                                              > > > > boiler
                                                              > > > > > you have just heated it in!
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > That is exactly the snag that Newcomen had - though with
                                                              much
                                                              > > > less
                                                              > > > > thermal
                                                              > > > > > capacity to heat and cool each pulse.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > David 1/2d
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > >
                                                              > >
                                                              >
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